Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread: Nosgoth & ESL: A Brief (cough) Discussion About Competitive Nosgoth

Nosgoth & ESL: A Brief (cough) Discussion About Competitive Nosgoth

  1. #1

    Nosgoth & ESL: A Brief (cough) Discussion About Competitive Nosgoth


    With the wandering warriors of the Solo League enjoying new improvements thanks to League Beta 2, we’re extremely pleased to introduce improvements to Nosgoth’s team-oriented players via ESL as well.

    We love seeing top tier Nosgoth players demonstrating levels of skill that’ve been known to baffle the dev team. It’s hard to avoid sitting slack-jawed in awe when you see a team pull off a tactical display of destruction that you previously thought impossible.

    With that in mind, we’re looking to put systems in place that will reward and encourage growth within the competitive Nosgoth scene. After many a long discussion with the good people at ESL, we’ve developed a bit of an innovative system that we’re quite excited about.

    Weekly & Monthly Prizing is on the Up
    Right out of the gate, we have increased Nosgoth’s default monthly prize pool from $4100 to $6000. Not only that, but we’ve put a system in place to ensure that as Nosgoth’s competitive scene grows, so does the prize pool! How does that work you might ask? Let’s take a look!

    Prize Pool Expansion Alongside the Competitive Community
    The prize pool has been set up on a sliding scale. Depending on the number of teams that sign up on any given week, the prize pool will fall into one of the following brackets. Bear in mind that these figures are on a per region basis with European and North American servers being the two current territories.
    16 Teams = $3000 (up from the current 2050) Per Month, per region

    • 24 Teams = $4000 Per Month, per region
    • 32 Teams = $5000 Per Month, per region
    • 48 Teams = $7500 Per Month, per region
    • 64 Teams = $10000 Per Month, per region

    As you can see, if we combine the two regions to find Nosgoth’s total monthly prize pool on ESL, the potential is there to reach $20,000 per month. At that stage, things begin to get a little crazy…which is awesome!

    Healthy & Sustainable Competition
    One of the key reasons that we’ve developed this system is to ensure that we’re providing the Nosgoth community with the right kind of support where and when it’s needed. As competition grows to a bustling size(and beyond) we want to place a heavier emphasis on the competition itself, top teams, and encouraging newer teams to train hard and fight for first place.

    When the numbers aren’t bustling quite as much, we can shift our focus toward bringing new competitive players and teams to Nosgoth, to help build a bigger competitive scene for everyone to enjoy .

    Building for the Future
    This is a long-term approach. We don’t want the idea of top tier competitive Nosgoth to be a flash in the pan. Some people might be tempted to run one huge event per year, devastating the competitive scene for the remaining 51 weeks. That doesn’t create a sustainable competitive scene, and that’s not what we’re doing. We’re starting at a good initial size, and looking to support growth of the scene in a more organic manner over the coming months.

    Team Numbers Out of The Gate
    The current number of competitive teams in Nosgoth is ok for a game in this stage of its beta and Early Access cycle. We do expect to see the numbers grow over time. There are a number of reasons for this, below we’ve taken the time to highlight a few.

    Better Players = Better Competition
    As the solo League kicks off, we’re going to see more and more new players begin to focus on honing their skills and becoming better at Nosgoth. As they climb higher up the ladder, that insatiable urge to continually improve will lead to many players seeking a solid squad of teammates. When that happens, it’s only a matter of time before they find their way to ESL.

    Screaming and Shouting from the rafters
    One of the things that we’re looking to do is make it easier for new players to find out about, and get involved with, ESL. Right now, many new bloods aren’t aware of ESL’s existence. We’re going to step up our promotion of ESL events to help alleviate that problem.

    Nosgoth’s Release
    When the faithful day does come that Nosgoth moves out of Open Beta and into a released title, you can bet all of the Runestones in the world that we’re going to make a big song and dance about it, and we’ll have plenty of newbloods flooding onto Nosgoth’s servers. Whilst that day is still some way of, we can’t wait, and we hope you’re looking forward to it too !

    SIGN UP NOW!
    Of course, we couldn’t sign off before sending our lovely readers over to play.eslgaming.com/nosgoth to sign up for the next Nosgoth Beta Cup!

    Grab your friends and go to play.eslgaming.com/Nosgoth to be amongst the first players to take advantage of our brand new prizing! It’s a good laugh, and the thrill of winning a match is magnified tenfold when duking it out against other teams in a Cup.

    SO MUCH TEXT!!!
    And with that, it’s time to stop typing and actually start spreading the word about ESL. Thanks for taking the time to read through this post, and best of luck on the bracket! If you have any questions, by all means, please ask them here. Oh, and don’t forget to sign up for the next Cup!

    P.S.
    Did I mention that you and your friends should sign up for the next Cup? :P
    Last edited by Oghamsmith; 9th Oct 2015 at 15:14.
    Square Enix Europe Community Manager
    Square Enix Europe Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    How is that money going to be split though?

    I have said this in the past, but I gladly repeat myself:

    My team has for the longest time now secured the 4th place in almost every Cup.
    We have not gotten anything out of it.
    Why should we even bother anymore, if only the top 3 teams get real prizes? This time could be better spent grinding Solo Ranked. And thats not even speaking about teams that dont make it into RO16...
    Last edited by Da_Wolv; 1st Oct 2015 at 18:06.

  3. #3
    so basically, esl's prize pool is never going to be equal to the solo queue. 64 teams is INCREDIBLY unreasonable no matter what the state of nosgoth's popularity is. even if we merged regions we would never meet that number. basically, nothing has changed since the announcement of the solo league: the money doesn't go where skill matters(esl) but where grinding matters(solo queue)

    let's say we somehow found ourselves with such an astronomical number of teams... imagine the timeframe required each week to complete a tournament. right now with ~10 teams you're looking at around 2 hours to finish a tournament, with 64 teams it's not an unrealistic estimate to say it would take 8-10 hours to complete a SINGLE tournament. one single tournament. that takes place every week. 2 hours for 10 teams is being generous and even then it includes players that are familiar with esl rules and the game in general. a 64 team tournament would need to be spread out over multiple days but that wouldn't work since it would need to take place on a weekly basis.

    but i can't help but feel like you guys already know all of that and know that we'll never reach that many teams and this is your way of equalizing the prize pools without actually ever having to do it.
    Last edited by coolmatt69; 1st Oct 2015 at 20:49.

  4. #4
    This is a joke right? One big elaborate joke where in the end ESL and SE and Psyonix will be like... JK guys were going to do what we said we were going to do and add 10k money to ESL.

    Nope.

    Were gunna add a measily 3k per region depending upon team participation and were even going to award money to 4th place. and if a miracle happens and we get enough people , places 5-8th will also get some money. Why not.

    Solo league in a TEAM BASED game was given more money with a Anticheat and a huge list of bugs and exploits that is too long to list here. Explain it. Rationally explain it as I don't think i'm the only person who would like to listen to it.


    Do you have any idea how long a SIXTY FOUR team tournament would take? probably about 2 entire days. 4 days if the double elimination thing is kept in.

    Like everything on these forums. This post and our responses and feedback mean absolutely nothing. In 16 years of competitive gaming in CALeague CEVO, and ESEA I have never seen a company do something like this. When it comes down to it, you will never have to inject the money you promised into ESL because not only is a 64 team league impossible to attain without at least combining the regions, It is literally impossible to run a tournament of that size in a timely manner in under a 24 hour period. I think you know that though, and that is why this news is incredibly unsettling and ridiculous.
    Last edited by uNborn-; 1st Oct 2015 at 20:35.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by coolmatt69
    but i can't help but feel like you guys already know all of that and know that we'll never reach that many teams and this is your way of equalizing the prize pools without actually ever having to do it.
    Yep. That's my impression, too.
    Same as this little sematic trick you did by "pushing back the League Series 1", by renaming the current League "Beta 2", but changing absolutely nothing about it.


    While I welcome a higher prize pool for ESL, especially if that means that we can get some money on the side as 4th place - nice.
    But still: Many players will not bother with the immense amount of work it takes to set up, maintain and get good as a team.
    If we strip ESL players of all motivation but the sole lust for money, then you would still be better off just grinding Solo Ranked.

    No newcomer team will jump in there and take 1st-3rd place from the dominating EU teams anytime soon - and if there are, good for them - but it will not change the fact that the majority of cash-craving players have a much better bet at playing Ranked.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 1st Oct 2015 at 21:15.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by coolmatt69
    but i can't help but feel like you guys already know all of that and know that we'll never reach that many teams and this is your way of equalizing the prize pools without actually ever having to do it.
    ^this, just lame excuses, again, i srsly dont know what to expect anymore... just why should players start playing ESL, where they might get a bit of money with enough skill/teamwork, when they can also grind and get money? this makes no sense, things like that don't make the competitive scene more attractive...

    Just one example of how to get ppl riled up for ESL: Give the game an option to watch teams(publics and ESL matches) "live" with a 3 min delay, get some good! commentators and hold a big tournament, where ESL players fight for a big cash prize, give players the option to watch the tournament "live" in-client, through buying a tournament ticket with a special new skin(for a reasonable price/not something like the 400 runestone key crap), part of the money earned with this flows into the prize pool, making it even bigger, that can help raise ESL awareness and if properly promoted bring ppl to play the game itself(that again could help getting the matchmaking fixed, which is totally broken right now)
    Last edited by Bazielim; 1st Oct 2015 at 22:00.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Heathrow, London
    Posts
    758
    Good evening ladies and gentlemen, just a friendly reminder of the Terms of Use of the forums. We value your opinions and feedback but please keep it clean, constructive and free from insults, slam posts and other items on the list.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 1st Oct 2015 at 22:12.
    signature image
    Join us and help write the history of Nosgoth at the Legacy of Kain Wiki encyclopedia

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    One of the key reasons that we’ve developed this system is to ensure that we’re providing the Nosgoth community with the right kind of support where and when it’s needed.
    I guess the oceanic community doesn't fit under that umbrella.

    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    As competition grows to a bustling size(and beyond) we want to place a heavier emphasis on the competition itself, top teams, and encouraging newer teams to train hard and fight for first place.
    Unless you are an Oceanic player

    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    Better Players = Better Competition
    As the solo League kicks off, we’re going to see more and more new players begin to focus on honing their skills and becoming better at Nosgoth.
    Oceanic players have to play at stupid late hours or first thing in the morning because of league locks throughout most of our waking hours. Only the unemployed can realistically participate in the current leagues unless they devote the mornings of every weekend. This is very frustrating and disappointing, especially when you sing and dance about the greatness of the system which is completely ignoring our community.

    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    As they climb higher up the ladder, that insatiable urge to continually improve will lead to many players seeking a solid squad of teammates. When that happens, it’s only a matter of time before they find their way to ESL.
    Nope, Oceanic.

    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    Grab your friends and go to play.eslgaming.com/Nosgoth to be amongst the first players to take advantage of our brand new prizing! It’s a good laugh, and the thrill of winning a match is magnified tenfold when duking it out against other teams in a Cup.
    Can't, oceanic

    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    If you have any questions, by all means, please ask them here.
    Do you have any plans to support the oceanic community? Some of us like this game however all the moves to grow the player base are aimed at two regions only. Hence our region is likely to stagnate and will as a result continue to be ignored or brushed aside.

    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    Oh, and don’t forget to sign up for the next Cup!
    Can't, Oceanic.


    Thanks for listening

    Sincerely,
    The token salty Australian guy.

  9. #9
    What about to refreshing/redo/rethink the seed system? *flies awaaaaay*

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    4
    This doesn't look promising.

  11. #11
    I don't understand why Psyonix is deciding to dangle a carrot on a stick for us.

    You need to encourage team play, This solo league stuff is so bad, I have even considered just quitting the game. The solo league is the closest thing to cancer that has come to this game, minus the global infect a couple weeks back.

    Psyonix, you really need to listen to the competitive players or other games being built for competitive players will kill this game. You can check all my post, I stay fairly positive most of the time, league however has sucked that right out.

    All leagues has accomplished is brought out a bunch of people who don't know how to play the game. This seems like a great thing at first however, All the veteran players are not looking to coach or teach new players when actual money is on the line. If it was a normal TDM yeah players can stop for a second and coach, but that's the last thing you want in anything ranked.

    Like I said I am angry today so take this how you want. I have offered to help in any way possible and that still stand.
    signature image

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by Arydious
    Like I said I am angry today so take this how you want. I have offered to help in any way possible and that still stand.
    Pretty much how I feel, and everyone else in the competitive community I talked to.

    We are all pissed. I have not heard 1 person speak at least neutral about the leagues... let alone praising it.
    It was a dumb idea from the start, and even after we told you repeatedly you are still going with it.

    Now its too late, we get that - but the changes to ESL mean absolutely nothing now, as the majority of new players won't bother to get into it anyway (Unless you live in Florida, New York and Rhode Island, I guess)

    I'll keep repeating myself:
    If we are to believe that players only play competitively with money involved, then raising the ESL prize pool works only so far, as it is the most reasonable offer. At the moment, especially in EU, cracking the top 3 to get even peanuts is something many long standing veteran teams cannot achieve - what makes you think that new players will bother playing ESL, finding/building and practicing in a team (with which they can't queue up during League times*) to eventually get good enough to win 3rd place, when that time could be better spent grinding away at that pathetic excuse of a point system?

    *


    I am really hoping that you will proove us all wrong; that this magically brings in huge numbers of teams into ESL... but I doubt it.

  13. #13
    Okey dokey,

    So a couple of key points are popping up that I'd like to get some answers to.

    We can only match solo league prize money when we hit 64 teams?
    Nope, not at all. When ESL hits 32 teams, THAT's when the prize pool matches the Solo League's 10,000 prize pool. The figures mentioned in the first post are on a per region basis, meaning Europe and North America's pools are independent of each other. Solo League's $10,000 prize pool is matched my our ESL initiative at 32 teams.

    In fact, the system that we have put in place allows for ESL to have TWICE the prize pool of our Solo League. At 64 teams, ESL will have a $20,000 prize pool, whereas the Solo League will still be at 10K.

    Are prizes distributed past more than the top 3 teams?
    They can be. As the playerbase and prize pool grows, so does the number of teams receiving prizing.

    • 16 Team Tier: Top 3 Teams will receive prizing
    • 24 Team Tier: Top 4 Teams
    • 32 - 64 Team Tier: Top 8 Teams


    --RAM--, the European and North American communities have passed the tipping point where ESL can actually work. The Oceanic region isn't quite there yet. Our efforts are still underway to grow Nosgoth in that region, and once we hit that tipping point, we'll look at bringing an ESL initiative online there.
    Square Enix Europe Community Manager
    Square Enix Europe Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Oghamsmith
    --RAM--, the European and North American communities have passed the tipping point where ESL can actually work. The Oceanic region isn't quite there yet. Our efforts are still underway to grow Nosgoth in that region, and once we hit that tipping point, we'll look at bringing an ESL initiative online there.
    I appreciate the response, but efforts to grow Nosgoth in our region are not apparent at all. The only two things that generate hype for the game are currently ESL and leagues. We are basically denied both of these as it stands. The minimum that could be done to support us would be to open up league times so our timezone can actually participate. I realize that this is planned for the future, but in the meantime our timezone stagnates and dies. Bring on Overwatch already.
    Last edited by --Ram--; 2nd Oct 2015 at 23:20.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    23
    Not to be rude, but do any of the Psyonix employees even play Nosgoth? or a better question, have you guys ever played competitively? Whenever you guys announce anything competitive related, my usual reaction is to frown. You guys keep saying you want to make the competitive scene grow and give the game a certain allure to attract more competitive players to the game, but your words contradict your actions from time to time.

    What's the actual purpose of Solo League? I could understand the concept of Leagues and then make it team-based, but the way it is now, you just need to pray to god you don't get newbies in your team that screw you over. It has nothing to do with teamwork anymore, might as well make it a Free For All mode and just see who got the most kills and damage.

    You guys barely promote ESL or Competitive play, yet you set all the spotlights on the Solo League that doesn't even contribute to Teamwork, Competitive play.. things you guys have been promising us for the past years.

    We are all intelligent enough to understand the way you've dealt with the whole ESL plan is a fiasco and an empty promise. We all know we will never reach such high amount of teams with the current Solo League going on (Heck I can barely find a normal TDM game). Even IF we get 32+ teams, do you realize how long it takes to finish one single weekly cup? It's almost as if you guys don't pay attention to the ESL/competitive scene, because I don't see any other explanation behind the way you guys do things.

    I could rant endlessly about the same things that have been on my mind the past few months and I probably am repeating a lot of other ESL players, but it seems rather pointless to voice our opinions.

  16. #16
    Unbelievable, This is actually really sad, ESL players pretty much get the middle finger whilst
    solo queue heroes with no skill and knowledge grind weeks straight consecutively earn more money?
    Lol @ psyonix promoting solo play over teamplay. Pretty sure it was stated you guys prioritize in
    making the competitive scene bigger and better, Well congratulations because yous are doing a
    rather spectacular job I must say.

    Half theses people don't even know what ESL is, Not once have I seen you guys even promote it ingame. Reward players who have time instead of real effort trying to make a team solid with new formalities building strats and synergy together, This take weeks months even years and thats not even half of it. Your real audience are ESL players I suggest you listen to us because most of us have been playing since the getgo and I'm talking well over a year and are still playing till this very moment.

    You guys really think theses solo league players are here because they enjoy the game lol, Probably they do but you know what else makes it more enjoyable? FREE MONEY BOYS. I've spoken to some of them ingame and that's their answer to ranked sadly.. Not to mention their 10 hour playtime they'll definitely stick around once the money is
    rewarded right?

    You say 32 teams must sign up in order for ESL to get equivalent earning as solo league though we struggle getting a steady 16 teams per week if even that(EU). Now 64 teams is unrealistic and by the way things are going haha no chance.

    ask yourselfs why would new players start a team and compete in ESL when solo league pays more and all you lot do is promote leagues. I guess this is what you guys want.
    Please excuse me, I'm just a player. Does my opinion even count
    Last edited by EmpathyuK; 3rd Oct 2015 at 01:28.

  17. #17
    I am sorry for my bad language but I want to say it clear: this change is a joke.
    Not only cause we will never reach 32 teams n these conditions but for the whole concept of league and ESL.

    We have 1000 problems (grind and not skill, region lock, leavers, lobby dodging, awful mm dcc) but the simple concept is that this is a TEAM BASED game in which ESL should be the most competitive and promoted part (hopefully e-sport wannabe)= you guys should try to do something to tempt players to play ESL or at least to play with friends to form a team.

    Your solution: let's force players to play SOLO (completely opposite of what the logic would say). So now everyone play solo, we can't find regular tdm matches, scrims are impossible to find too and sure dragging competitive team based play down. GG.

    If you think that a solo league will attract new players and that they will become better and try to sign for ESL.. that is just not going to happen. Everyone said enough about it. Why someone would bother to find a team, tryhard, organize things, find scrims, trying out tactics and strat, play vs the best players in this game while u can just grind like no tomorrow and win money without a big skill?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by EmpathyuK
    ask yourselfs why would new players start a team and compete in ESL when solo league pays more and all you lot do is promote leagues. I guess this is what you guys want.
    Please excuse me, I'm just a player. Does my opinion even count
    That's another interesting question: Once all the noobs that also have a real live notice all they get for competing are chest keys for a game they didnt care about previously, and compare their score to the people that actually won money.. surely they'll tell themselves "I'll get it next month!" Yeah, right. They are gonna be gone as quickly as they came (many of them are probably not eligable anyway but didnt bother to read the terms).

    Originally Posted by Sasha_Vykos
    Your solution: let's force players to play SOLO (completely opposite of what the logic would say). So now everyone play solo, we can't find regular tdm matches, scrims are impossible to find too and sure dragging competitive team based play down. GG.
    Yep. Been saying this for 2 months now. Its bad enough you reward people for playing by themselves, but it directly affects team based games, as it competes with the team based and ESL playstyle over the player's available time and opportunity:
    More time in ESL/scrims = less time in ranked
    More prizes in Ranked = less players in ESL/scrims = fewer practice matches played = fewer teams

  19. #19
    enough said about the current ESL situation, if you guys dont want to hear our feedback AND include it in the game, its you that are going to ruin it.
    Another example for promotion that could get ppl to play ESL(not only once, but more active): 1.Design the ultimate, coolest looking skin ever 2.Only ppl that play in ESL 4 weekly tournaments in a row get the skin(maybe even make it so that only the top 10 teams get it)
    Cause if i have learned one thing from years of playing competitive online games is, that ppl are totally "skin-crazy", i mean what other reason for ppl to buy a 100€ digital item? ^^

  20. #20
    I think the solo leagues are just to attract attention and sell more runes/chests/keys. Someone seems to be milking this game for all it's worth and not fixing anything. I don't know what parties are to blame and I'm not pointing any fingers, but I sure would like them to prove me wrong.

  21. #21
    Agree with the guys above, atm the only reason to go ESL instead of farming, sry i mean solo league, is to avoid health problems (headaches/high blood preasure/stress etc.)
    Imho just remove the cash rewards from solo league and split them to ESL tourneys. (Or at least make a 4v4 ladder and add them there.)
    Theres a reason that no other highly competitive/ESL game doesnt offer cash rewards to pubs.

  22. #22
    Dear Devs

    1. I just want to be able to fire up the game and join a queue and have a vaguely balanced 4v4 match within a reasonable time frame of 5-10 minutes of waiting

    2. I like to play with at least 1 mate because full pubbie teams elevate my blood pressure and shorten my life expectancy

    3. I don't care about money or farming, I just like competitive team games because they are fun.

    4. I'd like to be able to play Oceanic ESL one day maybe but to be honest by the time that day comes a better game will be available so probably nevermind.

    5. I used to find this game fun, so stop ruining it so I can play.

    6. Thanks.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by gzvirax
    I think the solo leagues are just to attract attention and sell more runes/chests/keys. Someone seems to be milking this game for all it's worth and not fixing anything. I don't know what parties are to blame and I'm not pointing any fingers, but I sure would like them to prove me wrong.
    How is away 10 grand milking it?
    Obviously I don't know or claim to know their sales figures, but I can't believe that they will actually profit from this.

    Originally Posted by --Ram--
    5. I used to find this game fun, so stop ruining it so I can play.
    Testify.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 4th Oct 2015 at 10:52.

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    How is away 10 grand milking it?
    I think it's an attempt to gain new customers that ignores existing problems with the game and many popular opinions in the community. I never said it was a good/successful approach, but it does seem to have brought a few new players in (probably not enough to recoup the investment.)

  25. #25
    Where is the advertisement for ESL ingame? Or anywhere for that matter? There is no way for us to get in contact with the majority or even big parts of the community to notify them that ESL exists.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last