Thread: Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG

Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG

  1. #51
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    Removing the Elder God from Nosgoth's past would completely rewrite everything to the point where there might not have been a war between the ancients and hylden. Which means no Pillars, which means no guardians or blood curse, which means no Kain; and if there is no Kain then how does the Elder God keep being killed in the past? More than likely, Kain would destroy himself before ever coming close to killing the Elder God if he were to do it at any time that precedes the end of Soul Reaver when Raziel first entered the time stream chasing after Kain.

    Morlock is the reason behind the hypothesis that turning into a wraith is how these vamps can escape or prevent succumbing to the madness, just like with Raziel.

  2. #52
    Just because Morlock(or Morlok??? Which sounds better? I always laughed at pronunciation of "Mordor" in "Lord of..." always souds like "Moredoor". In that case nearest IKEA will do Frodo and of course More-Lock XD... or Morlok) was wraith at some point, it doesn`t mean that saved him.... If you walk through tunel leading to Sarafan Tomb, you may euncounter Dumahim that was wraith. Or ther are Melchiahim...s(? plural?) that were wraiths and still they are insane... or don`t like to talk with us. There is no proof behind this claim i`m afraid- it`s theory. Just as my statement that there are powerfull vampires in clans able to somewhat resist thier madness- it is also theory, and nothing more. I can put here theory that Elder God was once mix of Vampire and Hylden and he "just" evolved in to god, and then put load of double(or even triple) sided "evidence" behind it
    Dumah wasn`t able to resist his devolution, even though he was in Underworld for quite some time(corpses of his children managed to rot in meantime). So i don`t think being a wraith has anything to do with resisting curse
    Anyway- it is not important. What is: i`d like story set in Nosgoth, but, and let`s be honest here, Kain and Raziel don`t have much to do anyway, anymore. Kain has to beat the hell out of Squiddy and set his younger self straight- it hardly deserves another game. More like DLC to Defiance would do after all it supposed to be like that in Defiance(check Lost World for further informations)
    So i think- new story, new characters, ability to choose- like in every proper RPG, or action game with RPG elements :P
    And enough digging in the past... I want world that nothing was written for... yet. It makes me somewhat angry that we(as in players killing each other in Nosgoth) can`t really do anything significant. Nothing we do will change outcome. It`s... sad

  3. #53
    Trivia time: "Morlock" is the name used for that Sarafan Tomb guardian in the game code. He is never given an official name. Personally, I sometimes call him Larry. And 'morlock' as a name is homage to a race of monstrous subterranean creatures from an old sci-fi story.

    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Kain and Raziel don`t have much to do anyway, anymore.
    You think Kain doesn't have much left to do? That's cute. He still has to:

    - Replace the Reaver in Avernus
    - Free Janos Audron
    - Destroy the Elder God
    - Destroy (or rehabilitate) the Hylden

    - Restore the Pillars
    - Return the Pillars to vampiric rule
    - Break the blood curse so vampire guardians can resume being born - Or else establish diplomatic vampire-human relations so the vampirism can be passed down when necessary without risk of a new revolt.

    --If he so chooses, he could trade restoring/ruling the Pillars for finding a way to uncouple the Pillars from Nosgoth, terminating their magical grip upon the world and eliminating any need for Guardians at all. If the Hylden ere ever truly destroyed or re-integrated into society, the Pillars themselves wouldn't be needed anymore.-- But he would still need to break the blood curse so vampires could breed naturally again and be free of bloodthirst.

    ---After breaking the blood curse, he would presumably need to raise a few female vampires so that he and Janos could pair with them and begin the repopulation of an uncorrupted vampire species.---

    That's two, possibly three games of material. But when Kain is done, there's plenty of other material for stories beyond him -- That's where new things can come in. People've been wanting a Vorador-centric title since Blood Omen.


    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Then i will propose 4th timeline as setting for my story If Elder God is dead/banished/sealed/so weak he`ll never be able to threaten Nosgoth ever again- and he`ll gets his tentacles whooped in the Nosgoth past- for example time of Sarafan, or Kain will smack his younger self in the head and tell "wait a bit. I`ll deal with someone and yoo can try to dominate world", i think madness will never twist vampires. No?
    After all kill/banishing/etc Elder God will not only erase him from the present or the future, but also from the past, as he is "now and always" and moves prettty freely through time.
    The Elder God cannot be erased from history. Kain explains to Raziel that in the event of a paradox, the timeline shuffles itself around the paradox --- But if the paradox is too great, the timestream will take the simplest path and just eject the paradox itself.

    The EG has hands in major events throughout history. Killing him far in the past would create so many holes in history that it would be simpler to just terminate the paradox - in this case, Kain. If the EG is to be eradicated, it would have to be sometime around the SR era or later where he has no great hold on history.

    As for Morlock, a theory stands that time in the spectral realm will have slowed the onset of madness (presumably as time itself is frozen there). Also, as a wraith, Morlock would have consumed many souls of all sorts of creatures which may even serve to further slow the onset of the madness - because these other souls are not corrupted in the same way as his.

    "But the revived Dumahim and Melchahim..." - Are all quite mad, yes. But consider Morlock's position: He was given a specialized guard duty by Kain himself, centuries prior to Raziel's return. Who knows how long he thrived in the spectral realm, building his power, before being revived for this - And considering that he was very likely revived personally by Kain for this task, his revival was probably done in Kain's standard way: Breathing a bit of his soul into a corpse. So in all likelihood, Morlock's got his standard Turelim soul melded with an extra portion of Kain's. Add to that whatever strength he gained from the spectral side and you've got a creature powerful enough to stave off the madness a bit. So yes, he might be "special" but he'd be the only one because no more were needed for the job.


    "But Dumah..." - Is still very much in control of his higher mental faculties when Raziel revives him. He speaks and everything. He remembers everything. Heavily supports the "powerful wraiths can withstand the madness longer" theory. And even Dumah's physical devolution was halted - Had he not been killed by Sarafan, he would look much worse.

    So as much as you would like to condescend about it, there is some pretty solid evidence to support it if not proof. And it's also worth noting that he isn't immune to mental decay. It's just taking him much more slowly. I mean, he's still essentially a frothing guard dog when Raziel shows up - just one that can talk.

    Besides all of that, recall that Morlock is the only non-feral vampire Raziel witnesses (lieutenants aside). He is also the only one with any established purpose. Morlock is utterly devoted to his charge as the Tomb's guardian. A focused mind is a strengthened mind. A meandering mind (as of the feral scavengers typically encountered) crumbles. So if wraiths being more resistant or Morlock having an extra dosage of Kain's soul aren't suitable possibilities for you, just assume he held out longer because he actually had something to hold onto. (This works for Dumah too. He spends his time in limbo developing new powers and becomes intent on being greater even than Kain. Focus. Purpose.)


    Okay, you want new characters, scrap all the time-travel stuff that's utterly entwined with the plotline since Blood Omen ("enough digging in the past"), a world where all previous written stuff is wiped clear ("I want world that nothing was written for")...It really sounds like what you want is a different series. Or maybe Dead Sun.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 7th Apr 2016 at 22:28.

  4. #54
    It doesn`t matter anymore what i want, it seems... God damn it

  5. #55
    Been combing through Dead Sun and Blood Omen material. A big continuity fault in Dead Sun was the spectral realm - instead of being, well, the spectral realm, they made it this slight shift into the past. A valid mechanic, could make for interesting puzzles...But that isn't the spectral realm.

    But it could still be used:

    Moebius died permanently at Defiance's end. So what if we have a game featuring his replacement? It would immediately explain an ability to shift somewhat in time at will like that (essentially, it's not the spectral realm he's shifting into at all - he's dipping into the timestream) - and with Kain meeting and guiding him, he could have been the first step toward restoring the Pillar's true stewards.

    Say Kain decides to turn a new batch of vampires. But not for conquest this time - this time, he's got to think about the endgame, bringing the two species (humans and vampires) back into co-existence so that, even if he can't break the blood curse, he can re-instate the passing of the dark gift and shift the Pillars back to vampire rule. Which means he can't just raid any old tomb for corpses: He has to find the latest Guardians and turn them.

    So he eventually meets Moebius' replacement (for convenience, I'll call him Marlin) and probably knows it, probably gets really snarky about the whole thing. Start of the game could be Marlin's been trying to dig into his forfeit destiny as a Guardian and this has led him to Kain's mountain retreat - where Kain has been cleverly trapped by the EG's machinations and must be let free. After a brief battle, the would-be Guardian is subdued and given some cryptic lecture or something to sway him to Kain's side, to learn of the real enemy.

    And from there he begins to learn about Kain's big plan and must, despite thorny relations. aid him in tracking down and converting the other Guardian replacements. ("But new Guardians were never born on account of the corruption!" - Bunk, I say! Kain was born when Ariel died despite the Pillars' instantaneous corruption. I submit that replacements WERE born, they were just never brought into service - they lived and died unaware of their roles and unbonded to the Pillars' magic, and numerous replacements have occurred since. Essentially, the Circle remains broken not for lack of existing Guardians but for neglect of service.)

    This concept could merge well with the idea of Kain having previously tried to raise new clan patriarchs (out of spite toward the EG rather than any real plan) only to have the EG corrupt them. This portion of the story could be told in cutscene as a tale elaborated by Kain after their brief duel, the betrayal of his latest children being what drove him back up into his retreat in the first place. And then said traitorous children could serve as bosses throughout the game, agents of the Elder God sent to impede Kain and company's quest to restore the Circle.

    End result of it all being that the Pillars are back in vampire rule and the EG serves as final boss.
    After the forum goes down, I can be found on Steam, Twitter, and Facebook.

  6. #56
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    @Ygdrasel
    It'd be interesting if Kain created a new vampiric empire, this time with the new Guardians being the lieutenants with their own territory and vampire clans. The MAD threat would be insane. For the humans to wage war with the vamps and for the vamps to wage war with each other would be to risk the destruction of Nosgoth itself. Perhaps the vamps of each clan could develop abilities in line with what Pillar their lieutenant belongs to, then we might have vamps like the one from Dead Sun.

  7. #57
    I always wondered: would elimination of Elder God change that much? Granted, he is mastermind(however silly it sounds) behind Ancient-Hylden War, but would his absence changed history so dramatically? Kain pointed that history rewrites itself and adjusts to changes very quickly and does so with minimal effort- "like a river".
    There is a great quote of Janos Audron(probably paraphrase of somone else, but it`s still great), about humans: that we fear what we don`t understand, and we hate what we fear. And there is plain, "good o`le" desire to kill, rape, pillage, torture. It was, is, and always will be present in humans(and other intelligent races), so maybe Great War "only" would change it`s nature- from religious to more prosaic reasons.
    And it is possible that bad people are in about the same proportion in Ancient Vampires and Hylden society. I dare say that in Ancient ranks there was just as much xenophobia and desire of conflict as in other two races- just because somone is "wise", dosen`t mean they are "smart".
    Then it wouldn`t change all that much- and Dark Gifts could be "invented" by necromancers afterall

  8. #58
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    I recently recieved a refund for my rune purchase back in March. I guess that means Nosgoth really is over. It's such a shame that this is happening.

    The question now is what will become of the lore and assets. I think the lore deserves to be counted and I don't really want the assets to get recorded in just another gallery of failed LoK games.

    If there is ever another LoK game, I'd like it to be put to use. Utilize them in a Soul Reaver remake or perhaps something else involved in the era. A human focused game could be acceptable.

    Imagine a post Soul Reaver era game that centers on a human campaign to finally wipe out the vampires in the face of a newly restructured vampiric empire, commanded by the wraiths that have seized control of the leaderless clans that have turned to madness. Model it after Dark Souls, only make the story far more prevalent with cinematics and dialogue.

  9. #59
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    @Ygdrasel
    It'd be interesting if Kain created a new vampiric empire, this time with the new Guardians being the lieutenants with their own territory and vampire clans. The MAD threat would be insane. For the humans to wage war with the vamps and for the vamps to wage war with each other would be to risk the destruction of Nosgoth itself. Perhaps the vamps of each clan could develop abilities in line with what Pillar their lieutenant belongs to, then we might have vamps like the one from Dead Sun.
    MAD? And yeah, the eventual end result would be a Council composed of vampire Guardians, exactly.

    Having their powers evolve according to their Pillar would be very interesting. I've always presumed that vampire biology operated that way, their gifts developing via assimilation of pre-existing magic. Much how all of Kain's gifts were born of absorbing magical energies throughout Blood Omen, their gifts would be born of steadily incorporating Pillar magic into their natural evolutions.

    It's all just a theory, mind, but all the lieutenants' gifts are roughly derivative of the original spells Kain absorbed so...

    And I've always said Nosgoth's assets and lore are deserving of a proper game. They could have the same era and background even, the same war...Just with a proper storyline. Your idea's interesting...But what wraiths? Are all the vamps going to be revived sorts?


    It seems unlikely the empire would restructure effectively with all their leaders gone post-SR. Maybe in Nosgoth's era - roughly speaking, any time between Raziel's death and return - the lieutenants restructure in light of Kain's absence though.

    Or sometime around the beginning of Kain's empire, Raziel still serving, and his clan still beautiful but wingless (or just starting to develop them, so maybe some bone outcrops that will become wings in time - basically just modify the evolved Sentinel somewhat). The evolved vamps could all still appear, who's to say they only started to show after Raziel's death. Vampires do evolve over vast time periods, after all, their midpoints could have endured for centuries. Could explore the beginnings of blood farms, humans being abducted, maybe the beginnings of the Smokestack...That'd be an intriguing time to see and Nosgoth's factions and lore could be incorporated with a few alterations. And it's the perfect point for humans to wage a war. Just cut out the feral lot, have Nosgoth's basic versions as the 'fledgling', evolved (and stronger) as 'adult'.

    Dark Souls gameplay would be an intriguing model (not 100%, but like combat and such - every enemy in DS is basically a puzzle in itself, dark atmosphere, epic bosses...Maybe not such excruciatingly unforgiving difficulty though. XD

    @Heretic: Eliminating the Elder God would have two potential outcomes:

    1) If killed in the SR era or later, he'd be dead. No change to previous events but he couldn't cause any more trouble.
    2) If killed in a past era where his death would drastically alter various eras, Kain would die and the Elder God would not.

    Nosgoth's timestream operates thusly: If a paradox occurs, the timestream shifts to birth a new timeline. If a MASSIVE paradox (like sudden non-existence of an entity with major roles and implications throughout all of history) occurs, the timestream takes the simpler route and just reshuffles in such a way as to erase the source of the paradox - in this case, the EG's would-be killer, Kain. It is very much a river: It can flow around most obstructions...But larger ones, it meets resistance, builds up force and ultimately washes them away outright.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 17th Apr 2016 at 02:10.
    After the forum goes down, I can be found on Steam, Twitter, and Facebook.

  10. #60
    I can make theories and dream Ygdrasel. We can argue the point- like "if Elder is all knowing, then he would know about his downfall and do something about it... He is after all beyond Destiny", then someone would argue about Raziel and Kain being also beyond Destiny, since they are both even "deader" than any vampire ever was, so Elder knows about his future. I think it would not give any conclusion to this little discussion

    As for what i wanted to say earlier, but of course lost myself in my own explenations, it was said by GeenFeelGood
    Post Soul Reaver era would be great. I`d love to see a world that dies only to be reborn again and reshaped by main character(s). And even though i said it before, i`ll say it again : we should be able to choose sides. Either being a vampire or human. But it is too simplified for my taste- life is simple, but then we all create bunch of stupid excuses and look for a roads that aren`t really easier. It is only example of that kind of behaviour, not realted to LOK games: "i love her, should i tell her? No, it would only be a burden to her. Better to stay quiet, and let it wither and die...". Easy to see this guy didn`t choose easy, or painless, way But thats the way we are

    I am backing up anyone who supports idea of being able to change your way half way through a game. Example: you are human, hunting vampires, you fight because you belive that our race should rule. That we are inherently good in nature. Then you are on a mission(ugh... okay, you don`t have quests, but you had particular goal in mind. Artifact, armor, information, etc.) and euncounter vampire hunters killing and raping, and burning everyone near some slave pen on the outskirts of vampire territorry, no matter who they are. There are people asking for mercy, and don`y recive it. And you see that this animals aren`t what you really want to protect or being allied with. Or there is some male/female vampire(depending of your character orientation and sex)... romance thingy, why not? Not the mushy kind(any reference to Twilight will meet with my hostility). Hard and forbidden. With both people involved questioning it`s nature. I don`t know why, but only thing that comes to my head as a example is Ygritte and Jon Snow from "Game of Thrones"(stupid show by the way). My little revenge :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtoBFXSvD6Y
    Or your character starts envying them. Or he sees them as true human beings, what our race should be. They are almost free from wordly desires(well, apart from hunger of course) and can pursuit whatever discipline they want- art, philosophy, medicine, science, whatever.
    Or you start as vampire. You feel like god. Like lion amongs sheeps- this is a quote, but i don`t know where form. You are loyal to your Clan in a way, that makes human envy of your determination and clear mind. And then, ona a hunt, you see how human family interacts. Someone sacrifice him/herself for someone else. That there are lots of emotions that you were robbed of. That mortality and being able to forget can be a blessing.

    Choices, choices, choices. Thing that made "Dishonored" better game, then it would be if it was another "Thief" like thing. How hard was it for me to slit a guard throat, when i heard Heart(if you don`t know the game i am talking about, look it up. It`s lots of fun) stating, that this guy, ugly, rowdy thug by mistake serving in something akin to police, found once turtle on a beach and was nursing it back to health? That guy is a brute, but he has someone he loves? I had really tough time going through this game because i hardly killed anyone and instead behave like tree hugger(choke hold, you can eliminate guy without killing him)

    And of course that dosen`t really stop anybody from ending a game in a "normal fashion"- start as vampire, end on vampire side. Start as human, end on human side

    P.S.
    We once had a bit of a argument, somwhere, about Wraith Blade- how it should look and how it should be handled
    Most people seemd to favour this Pata or Katar type of thing, that we know from first 2 Soul Reavers
    I on the other hand, as always , were leaning more toward Defiance look and grip
    Why? This gut will explain if you are willing to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7niTpIW7dEk

  11. #61
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    M.A.D, Mutually Assured Destruction

    Perhaps instead of a restructured empire, the opposition could be a horde. With the lieutenants dead (or gone in the case of Turel) and the madness taking its toll, the clans are no longer contained within their territory and have scattered throughout Nosgoth like the Dumahim were in Soul Reaver.

    Perhaps the human factions became divided by their defeat during the uprising and part of your mission is to bring them back into the fight, journeying through their territories and earning their allegiance. With each faction you gain you are able to call upon a companion from their ranks for assistance in dealing with the horde and boss fights.

    The same could be possible with wraiths that long ago disowned these mad vampires as their brethren and want them eliminated before they wipe out the food supply. There could be both fledgling and evolved wraiths, that is one way we could see Nosgoth's vampire skins once again

    The clan territories could serve as the sources of where the vamps replenish their numbers; and as such, the targets of your campaign. Within each of these territories could exist a mechanism for purging it of its vamps. The Silenced Cathedral's purge mechanism is obvious. The Crucible's could involve causing an eruption that covers the whole area in lava, Pompeii that whole area. The Drowned Abbey's could involve breaking levees that empty it, exposing most of the Rahabim to the sun and trapping those that are inside the buildings that will be finished off by devices like what killed Rahab. The Necropolis could involve herding them into the newly reactivated grinders like the one that claimed Melchiah. The immortal forges could be used to channel flames throughout the ruined city of the Dumahim. Would we want the Razielim to have survived to this point?

    Imagine earning the allegiance of the Watchers and then being able to call upon a Scout that decloaks behind you; or the Scourge and calling upon a Beastmaster than Swoop lands in front of you.

    Perhaps the madness has little to no grace period before it takes hold of the minds by this time; but the evolution and devolution would still take time to happen. The fledgling forms from Nosgoth could be used with just a simple change of waredrobe.

    With the devolution, how about going one step further and making them resemble their lieutenants(scaled down of course), with the Dumahim looking like Dumah would have been if he hadn't been killed and turned wraith.

    So we'd have mad fledglings, evolved, devolved, abominations, and wraiths from each of those stages that still see the vampires as brethren from five vampire clans for you to go up against, as well as any humans from the six human factions that want you dead. That is a minimum of 52 different enemies, more than enough variety for a game modeled after Dark Souls.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 17th Apr 2016 at 20:31.

  12. #62
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    I can make theories and dream Ygdrasel. We can argue the point
    What are you talking about? There is no point to argue here. That's how Nosgoth's timestream works, those are the options.

    Dishonored was a good game because all parts of it joined to elevate the sum. Shoehorning in morality paths would not elevate LoK because actual morality is not black/white, it's gray. If the series needs some player-based moral aspect, it should go the Witcher route and have it all murky with delayed consequences, no clear-cut hamfisted "a hunter saw his pal raping somebody so he thinks they're bad now" dreck with instantaneous results (like...Well, every other game with a moral system).

    Now, if the story had some vampire hunter growing to doubt the sadistic fervor of his comrades and steadily learning more of the truth of things (how the vampires are the intended Guardians and all the manipulated horrors on the human end), building to a climax of some kind...Sure. But that's not a player-defined morality branch, just a linear story/character development.


    Now, as for choices: Absolutely. Various paths through a level, various kill methods (even non-fatal should one please). All of that could work. Though logistically, a vampire would have to feed so some mechanic would be needed for non-fatal feeding (like how Raziel can "sip" human souls in SR). Incapacitate, then prick open a vein for a quick drink, leave them dazed but alive. Choice is good.


    @Gen: Why would wraiths help humans when that entails revealing weapons that could purge entire vampire territories? Better to just populate the territories with saner groups alongside the ferals if we're including both populations. The more sane lot can still compete against the ferals, it'd make for potential infighting to be exploited. Then you've got feral enemies and default Nosgoth types all together - united in general but capable of falling to fighting internally. Maybe the evolved type only appear in later areas or they could just be sprinkled amongst the general clan populations.

    If there were a time system added, you could even have the regular types evolve after a certain point - maybe you even come upon a pupation area and torch some cocoons, only to have some evolved Zephonim emerge to fight you back.


    Systematically cleansing the territories is a great concept though. As is gaining each human faction's aid. As for Beastmasters, I think it'd be amiss not to incorporate their twisted true origins in some way. Maybe when you hit their territory, Dark Eden's corruption has taken heavy hold and warped them. Gaining the faction's aid would entail a quest to somehow cleanse the madness while retaining their powers, perhaps.

    And having some vampires appear like scaled-down versions of lieutenants could be interesting but it should be more sparingly done, maybe mini-boss type things or advanced enemies appearing more often the closer you get to reaching the purge weapons. One thing I've always wanted to see is Melchahim with various forms of flesh-crafting done. So you get some who've added extra limbs or shaped their forearms into pointed weaponry, maybe incorporated extra hearts (which would require all of them be dealt with to kill it)...

    Advanced Zephonim could be spidery like in SR but with Zephon's splittable face and eggsacs from which they birth more (lesser) Zephonim if not killed quickly enough...

    Advanced Dumahim could be mini-juggernauts that have to be lured into fire (unless one has a fire weapon on hand) to be damaged/killed.

    The Turelim version could be hulking creatures somewhere between SR's bipedals and Turel's quadriped state, requiring sound (via weapon or environment) to hurt them...

    Rahabim...At a loss. But of course, with each vamp territory purged, humans should resettle the region. Keeps it lively.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 18th Apr 2016 at 00:05.
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  13. #63
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    Each human faction should come with it's own unique trials to overcome before you receive their allegiance.

    Curing the Scourge of what plagues it while learning the truth about their origin would be perfect. Enduring the blood rituals of the Seers could be cool. Acquiring lost treasures for the Drowning Men sounds like a fit. Assassinating high ranking Wraiths for the Watchers sounds like fun. Purging vampire infested settlements for the Ironguard sounds appropriate. Destroying vampire nests that are beyond the clan territories for the Red Sisters sounds fun.

    When it comes to choice, perhaps you can be torn between factions, having to choose sides as areas are freed up for expansion and the question of who has claim arises.

    It would probably be just as you put it, with their being a hierarchy within the clans. Resulting in the lower casts being in the outer perimeter and the higher ones residing within, it getting harder the deeper in you get.

    With Rahabim abominations, they could have no legs like Rahab and instead slither on the ground like a snake.

    Thought of a different way to eliminate the Melchahim. Given that they have the weakest resistance to the madness, perhaps the feral ones are so driven by instinct that they attack anything that has the scent of non-vampiric blood; and being known as blood manipulators, they may have huge stores of blood that is preserved for future consumption. Picture these blood stores exploding, with the area and all within it being flooded by the blood. Then as soon as the vampires get back on their feet they sense the blood on one another and tear each other apart. The vamps would significantly outnumber the wraiths, so there would no way for the wraiths to stop or even escape the massacre.

  14. #64
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    Then as soon as the vampires get back on their feet they sense the blood on one another and tear each other apart. The vamps would significantly outnumber the wraiths, so there would no way for the wraiths to stop or even escape the massacre.
    You are getting creative when it comes to killing someone XD

    Anyway- Ygdrasel. I didn`t mean my "180 degree" turn to be like that, and you know it. You just like to point things that i didn`t cover :P Stop that please. I meant- one player would change sides after one display of barbarism, other would think about it only after seeing sexy vampire that energies his base :P, nevermind that he spent 25 hours completing different missions for his grup, and saw different faces of cruelty. Or he could be on the top of his clan, and then undergo his crysis of fate. Like Vampirism Cure in Morrowind- tools are always there but when and how you use them is entirely up to you

    And the other thing i`d like to ask. Should our human groups be the same as we have in Nosgoth? Frankly they are interesting, but... Why should we have Vanguard? Reformed Neo-Sarafan order in thier place could be fun. And in this type of adventuring game people like Scouts, Vanguard, and Ironguard could be practically part of one faction- bear with me i`ll explain my way of thinking. From the top of my head(i`m talking to You Ygdrasel) i don`t say they HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT, just random 4 grups(getting late and i don`t want to think too hard about something that will be shot down anyway):

    1.Soliders/Vampire Hunter/Insert-Your-Namers- most common, most respected by common men. Big friggin` army of well equipped killers. You have them walking walls in every major settelment, they raid slave pens on regular basis, they have whole bunch of fun weapons and armors. Again from the top of my head- few classes within thier grup. Scout- light weight armor, so he can move quickly and quietly, avoiding big battles, he relies on stealth and his/hers wits. Maybe grappliung hook. Maybe some claws for climbing the wals. Good for eliminating special targets. Armed with precission crossbow with magnifiers and combat knife

    Hunter- regular solider, middle weight armor, armed with repeating crossbow(could be few types- more bolts, less blots, heavier, but more fire power and so on) with bayonet and combat knife. Team player, great at taking positions and holding them. They are doing pretty well in fiding cover and manouvering like our world today soliders
    I`ll skip the "combat knife" thing from now on- just every group has some fall-back weapon for melee

    Assault hunter- all like above, but with six shooting long, revolver musket(in contrary to crossbow can missfire, and is not that precise, but bullets are harder to dodge and to dig out, and they are soft lead, so they change internal organs in to a pulp when penetrating body). Guy that mainly hold forts, and takes care of defending strategic posidtions. Main difference- if he wants to, he can carry a tower shield(breaks after some beating). Plant it and enjoy cover, while providing support to rest of attacking Hunters

    Heavy Hunter(Arsonist, Insert your Name)- heavy armor, thus he can take quite a beating. He goes first in to the fray, in first line. Kicks the door in, and light vampires on fire with his primitive flamethrower. Drawbacks- he pretty slow on his feet- so he is the first theu get to in the retreat, and flamethrower has small range(20-30 meters) + naphta on his back can explode if attacked directly

    Officer- guy with a cutlass or a dussack, combat kinfe and some weapon- that depends on his rank- like capitans have flintlock revolver, majors have something that goes boom(6 granades?), and colonels have short mace(symbol of thier rank, but is blunt weapon as well)

    They have also all sorts of explosives and incendiary things(granades, naphta bottles). Some of them short, rest middle to long distance

    2. Another group- Mystics. People don`t know what to think about them, because they are pretty mysterious. They are mainly interested in gathering artifacts of old times and using them as weapons. In here you`d have, i don`t know:
    Monk- 2-3 different basic, magical attacks + some pole arm(partizan, glawie, halebard) and a sacrafical knife
    Priest- guy completly focused on using magic with only some small blade as a fall back weapon. They could use thier power to slow time some, or widen thier perception(same thing when it comes to effect in game) so they could dodge better. Pretty well trained in melee, but still good in a middle distance

    3.Another grup- Engineers. Treated by some as cowards, but very important group, because they rely on thier technology, and they are always on the hunt for scraps of old documents, plans, lore. For example they uncovered some thruths about Hylden glyph energy and they harvesting it to move heavy, big tank-like-train-like machines (for reference Blood Omen 2) and power human major cities(heat and water and stuff). They have pretty interesting toy- Gatling-like guns on thier carts, mortars, cannons and so on. They seek thier world "atom bomb"- something that can kill lots of vampires at once. Middle to short distance and best fire power there is, they carry some blades but not to good in melee

    4. Another group- Knights. Something like Sarafan, but not as fanatical, just focused on melee and hand to hand combat. Armor is something akin to a full plate, but "more modern"- for example dosn`t require mail, and is almost like second skin, so dosen`t hsmper movement that much(plate armor dosen`t really slow movement much, but i mean, "my armour" is even lighter). Two types: Skirmisher. Lighter armor(with a shoulder cape) sidesword, buckler, and a dagger, more of a duelist, good at attacking enemy "officers", and heavy armoured Jaggernaut with greatsword and dagger that can wipe out enemy unit alone and is pretty impervious to bullets, bolts, claws, blades and javellins- they have to knock him down, wrestle, find a gap in plates and stick a knife in it to hurt him

    Depending on when would you like to start, you`d have different types of approach to certian problems, different methods in achiving goals- if you`d have Vanguard and Scourge, you`d have basically the same- skils are different, but idea that you go and vampires up with some simple weapon is frankly the same- and different groups would have different opinion about you- for example as a Hunter you`d be on good terms with Engineers- as they often help in safe transporting the troops, they design your weapons, but your group think of Knights and Mystics as stuck up holes, and laugh at thier ineffective ways. As Knight on the other hand you`d look down on "mere cannon fodder" that relies more on new weapons than pure skill
    As i said i just pulled them out now, so i don`t even know if i would like them like that or not
    Last edited by Heretic_13; 26th Apr 2016 at 12:57.

  15. #65
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    It is possible that some human factions could have been been absorbed into another by now. The Red Sisters and Ironguard could have come together after withdrawing into the Citadel; and the Scourge and Watchers could have come together after retreating back into Dark Eden.

    What if the character we play was a victim of the horde and was ressurected by the Elder God? Whenever we die the Elder God brings us back to life at a set location like it did for Mobius. This way we have a ressurection mechanic like what is in Dark Souls.

    What if at some point (probably after the Zephonim if we are going in the order from Soul Reaver) we come across Kain, newly arrived through the time stream to finish his work? Kain offers to make you one of the first of the new generation of properly made vampires, retaining all of who you are and without a trace of the corruption. You decide whether to finish the purge as a man or become a vampire. Staying human means you retain your alliances with the factions and everything it affords you. If you become a vampire your stats jump by a huge margin but you are on your own from that point forward and have now become a target for every human you come across. The Elder God also disowns you from that point forward and your resurrection is now possible through your dark gift carrying you away when you're on the brink of death, like Kain's bat form in Defiance.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 22nd Apr 2016 at 04:21.

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    It is possible that some human factions could have been been absorbed into another by now. The Red Sisters and Ironguard could have come together after withdrawing into the Citadel; and the Scourge and Watchers could have come together after retreating back into Dark Eden.

    What if the character we play was a victim of the horde and was ressurected by the Elder God? Whenever we die the Elder God brings us back to life at a set location like it did for Mobius. This way we have a ressurection mechanic like what is in Dark Souls.

    What if at some point (probably after the Zephonim if we are going in the order from Soul Reaver) we come across Kain, newly arrived through the time stream to finish his work? Kain offers to make you one of the first of the new generation of properly made vampires, retaining all of who you are and without a trace of the corruption. You decide whether to finish the purge as a man or become a vampire. Staying human means you retain your alliances with the factions and everything it affords you. If you become a vampire your stats jump by a huge margin but you are on your own from that point forward and have now become a target for every human you come across. The Elder God also disowns you from that point forward and your resurrection is now possible through your dark gift carrying you away when you're on the brink of death, like Kain's bat form in Defiance.
    Something like that would be fun- i had little issue with my idea of swaping sides- i mean what would it look like gameplay-wise? Would we change sides whenever we could or would it be one time only? And if so, how would it look like? Kain-solution is very good, as we could get to be proper vampire, not some "watered down child of second cousin"(if yer know what i mean).

    One thing: I whined many times about this resurrection stuff, i explained why it angers me so i only say "no" to this one thing. If we were voting, i mean :P

    And if i were to be human, after doing some pretty significant things for the cause i`d like to be able to command small unit- not always, but if i have to go to some vampire fort or something, i`d like to be able to get some people to watch my back, or at least do enough damage and noise, so i can sneak in more easly. It`s, of course, not obligatory- if i am, say, a scout, i can sneak in pretty well on my own. But if i am a hunter and not so good at that, what about small group of engeeners protected by other hunters, doing a little show with mortars at the front gate, while i try to steal/kill/abduct?

  17. #67
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    Each human faction should come with it's own unique trials to overcome before you receive their allegiance.

    Curing the Scourge of what plagues it while learning the truth about their origin would be perfect. Enduring the blood rituals of the Seers could be cool. Acquiring lost treasures for the Drowning Men sounds like a fit. Assassinating high ranking Wraiths for the Watchers sounds like fun. Purging vampire infested settlements for the Ironguard sounds appropriate. Destroying vampire nests that are beyond the clan territories for the Red Sisters sounds fun.

    When it comes to choice, perhaps you can be torn between factions, having to choose sides as areas are freed up for expansion and the question of who has claim arises.

    It would probably be just as you put it, with their being a hierarchy within the clans. Resulting in the lower casts being in the outer perimeter and the higher ones residing within, it getting harder the deeper in you get.

    With Rahabim abominations, they could have no legs like Rahab and instead slither on the ground like a snake.

    Thought of a different way to eliminate the Melchahim. Given that they have the weakest resistance to the madness, perhaps the feral ones are so driven by instinct that they attack anything that has the scent of non-vampiric blood; and being known as blood manipulators, they may have huge stores of blood that is preserved for future consumption. Picture these blood stores exploding, with the area and all within it being flooded by the blood. Then as soon as the vampires get back on their feet they sense the blood on one another and tear each other apart. The vamps would significantly outnumber the wraiths, so there would no way for the wraiths to stop or even escape the massacre.
    Sounds great. Quests for every faction, allegiances to be decided...Maybe benefits varying by said allegiance.

    Though on the note of the Melchahim having the weakest resistance to the madness: Given that they have the least portion of Kain's corrupted soul (the source of said madness), wouldn't they display a GREATER resistance to madness? Their flesh only rots for want of more soul to keep it anchored to life, not a higher rate of madness.

    Plus, gruesomely awesome as it is, all the ferals still survive that scenario. Given the Melchahim's tenuous grasp upon material existence, perhaps the purge could involve prying them away from the flesh somehow -- Maybe one of Malek's soul machines (or the technology thereof) could have been a part of the spectral experiments of the clan, stolen and hidden away only to be discovered and turned against them. Or their blood stores could be tainted with black blood and unleashed as a kill-on-contact flood against the whole lot.

    Still not into this "horde" idea. Vampires shouldn't be fighting off a horde of their own kind. Not sure why they can't just fight the uprising humans. And really, I don't see the stronger, saner, smarter caste allowing ferals to propagate enough to become a "horde". (Also, wouldn't Kain be back after Melchiah if we go by Soul Reaver? Raziel fights Kain after gaining Melchiah's gift.)

    The choice of human or vampire is an interesting one, you could gain some dark gifts at the cost of all that human wrath and the standard vamp weaknesses (and maybe a degenerative gift of your very own~)...And it would make for the first game since Blood Omen to have multiple endings - either one each for vamp/human, or even one for each faction chosen in the end (sort of how Fallout endings do).

    Though - if one went vampire - would they have to choose an allegiance between the clans like they did with human factions? That'd add to the possible endings if the Fallout style route was taken. Replay value aplenty though, seriously. Each faction/clan offering different skills, detriments, endings...My god.


    But let's say they turn down Kain's offer: What stops him just turning them into a meal? He doesn't seem the type to just shrug it away. He'd off them for his wasted time, probably. I'd say instead, maybe have the player killed at some point mid-game by the returned (and furious at his children being slaughtered by one upstart human) Kain and offered the choice by a repentant Mortanius (which also allows a return to that Underworld never seen since BO - and a return to his full-on death mask look ala BO, or at least another interpretation of it): If they join the vamps, they serve Kain's ongoing goal of balance. If they stay human, they still serve balance by clearing away corrupted life like Kain's degenerate spawn. Kind of win-win for ol' Morty.

    This would also better serve the idea of 'joining clans'. If you're raised by Kain, you just evolve down some new path dictated by his vampire soul portion, essentially the first of a whole new clan. Raised magically by the non-vampiric Morty, maybe the evolution is a little more finicky (Kain's own changes were largely an act of supernatural will to reflect his kingly ideal of himself, little guided by natural evolution), requiring some infusion of powerful blood [from a clan elder of your choosing] to get things going in a concrete direction..."But Morty's dead by this era" - Let's say the Kain battle occurs in the Chronoplast (since he'd be returning from time-streaming anyway) and he tackles you through the portal, conveniently set to the BO era where Kain was doing who knows what. You return to SR/Nosgoth era after the big choice.

    And about factions merging into each other: In SR, you can see a hunter with a flamethrower in the Silenced Cathedral. So surely a bit of shared tech. It'd kind of kill the variety to have any of them outright merging though, and leave less opportunity to explore if they shared territories...

    @Heretic: I'm just going to not bother with anything you post that you've failed to make readable. It is not that difficult. That said, your last post was readable so: Small factions to command, RTS style. Solid idea. Watchers ought to have stealthier function than the Ironguard. Red Sisters for more chaotic players (explosions and such - they'd be your mortar troops), Prophets for your pacifist sort (using curses and disabling tricks over killing)...


    @Gen & Heretic: In regard to the Vanguard: They are said to be composed largely of criminal and war-trauma types so maybe if the player decides to side with them, they take extra penalties with all the other factions. Or maybe the if the player goes rogue and starts offing humans (whether human themselves or not), the Vanguard is set upon them at random intervals ala Red Dead Redemption's bounty hunters (they spawn continuously-but-randomly while you've got a bounty on your head.)

    Or, and it probably gets a bit convoluted here but: Say the player accepts Mortanius' (or Kain's - but I still say it'd be more his character to just eat you if you declined) vampirism -- They get a chance to go back. The Vanguard offers it at any point after gaining their trust - But only once. That is, you can take the offer whenever after it's available, but there's no going back to vampire again. So you take the offer, they put you through a ritual to their Drowning God (a baptism-esque deal, though in reality an execution due to water's deadliness to vampires). Your corpse burns away but, courtesy of the Elder God, you come back...Worse for wear but "alive". And that's how you join the Vanguard, hiding under their outlaw hoods to mask the thing you've become.

    AND SPEAKING OF MASKS: Your outfit/gear should totally be customizable within whatever faction/clan you choose. Make use of all Nosgoth's skin designs. Me, I'm a huge fan of the Marksman Regalia so I'd want the option of donning that golden mask if I joined the Watchers...
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 25th Apr 2016 at 08:27.
    After the forum goes down, I can be found on Steam, Twitter, and Facebook.

  18. #68
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    @Heretic: I'm just going to not bother with anything you post that you've failed to make readable.
    Aww you hurt my feelings...() I pressed "Enter" in few places just for You, so my post will take more space. XD

    If my character will be turned vampire by Kain- i was thinking more about being unique, different from rest of clans, and then your work with wathever goal in mind you`d wish. If for example you are more concern about vampires as a race, your work would be more about common goals, common good. And if you want to pledge to somone, you`re free to do that.

    Like the idea of being on "good side"(you know what i mean) wether you are human or vampire

    Though i`m not really "buying" idea of going back and forth in time just so we could be changed. Kain returning to his proper time would be better i think. And just imagine. He suddenly shows after hundrets of years of absence. What clan would belive that he was thier god-creator? What "new" general would just hand his power over? That there is great story in itself- gaining trust from zero and being practically free to go anywhere, as vampire, rather than being born to some clan

    Also as a young vampire he/she`d be really weak at least at first and compared to rest. That would be the price for sudden change of heart

    And i just thought of classes for my Engineers:
    1. Steam Engineer- guy that can operate anything related to water nas steam- all kind of nasty acid tricks, melting vampire faces away, making them stick to the ground for a bit, operating this steam punk machines for transportation- cars, boats.

    And enviroment kills. Imagine this: you walk through some necropolis, there is a bunch of feral melchiahim. What would hunter do? Called back up and shoot them up. Kinght would just go and cut them to pieces, and mystic would use some magic. But all of them would have to actually go in there and risk getting killed. What would Egineer do? He`d go to nearest dam/river/small lake- disrupt it, change water flow, and drown ghuls.
    We go through Silenced Cathedral, zephonim jumps us, we hit some rusty pipe, and hot steam flies in thier faces
    And so on

    2. Energy Engineer- guy plays around with glyph energy. Shocks vampires, can put temporary barriers, disrupts thier equipments and weapons. Can use old technology, like sound weapons, because he has means to power them up

    3. Metal Engineer- Guns- big guns operator. Cannons, Gatlings, big flamethrowers(mounted on wehicles), much more powerfull than ones on vampire hunters back. Traps- bombs that go "boom", but also ones that shoot spikes, or direct force of explosion, jumping bombs, mines, sharp spring razors, bear-trap-like devices that maim, or even cut of lower limbs
    Enviromen kills would include droping heavy collumns on top os someone head with use of explosives

    Pick your poison

  19. #69
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    @Ygdrasel
    The corruption in relation to the dark gift can go either way, I don't believe it was ever defined.

    Consider this instead, you and the others were resurrected by the Elder God to cleanse the world of the vampires; but also with the promise that you would be allowed to live out the time you had left to live once it was over. You emerge from the waters of Nosgoth to be greeted by those within the Drowning Men who worship the Elder God; and as such were told of your arrival through prophecy. When you die you dissolve and remerge from the waters where you are ressurected once again. As you advance through the purges and encounter the other factions, worship of the Elder God expands into them.

    Once the purge is complete, the Elder God releases you from service. No longer will you be resurrected, your next death is permanent. However shortly after this you find yourself surrounded by those who worship the Elder God, they are there to kill you by command of the Elder God.
    Before they can kill you however, Kain arrives and slays them all. It is after this that Kain makes his offer to you. He will make you a proper vampire with the proper methods, not the method used to make the first empire. You will not lose yourself to the change and not be corrupted. In light of being betrayed by the Elder God and the humans you fight for, you accept.

    Now instead of ressurecting you are carried away to the Sanctuary of the Clans by your dark gift once you are on the brink of death in order to recover. Your mission is now to break and disband the factions as you root out those who worship the Elder God.

  20. #70
    Yeah, this is some good stuff. But, and i hate myself for saying that in the first place- y`know, for going against good story and creative idea- wouldn`t it be "too much" for side story really? Imagine how big; literally, in Gigabytes, and story-wise would have to be this game, to pack all of the things we thought of?

    Well if we are talking about new game, completly focused on what you described above, that is story in itself, could be separate game, but as a means really, just to change sides... Wouldn`t it be too complicated? I`m not questioning, nor saying "this be stoopid", i`m just asking "how do we pack this up?"

    I mean this- if some studio ever did a game when you have 3, 4, 5 or more completly diffferent stories (and i mean stories, not paths to achive basically the same ending) depending on what path you choose at whatever turning point in to the game- i`d be friggin` happy and impressed. That is dream come true. That is art, that would push wathever competition it could have in to the dirt without breaking a sweat. It`s not today RPG, when you get some small mention about quests you finished at the end, and you have to belive this stuff was "important", whiel it is basically notification of stuff you did. You are literally making game pivot around your character. That is some heavy stuff

    Imagine if in "Skyrim" you could say "uh-uh" to main story lines! If you could spare the life of Ulfric Stormcloak being on imperial side, make him work for wht he destroyed, on word of honor. Or try to force Alduin in to the path of light instead of just killing him. You wouldn`t have plain "hero". "He goes, he kills, he wins, the end. Ka-boom". That would be, almost, living person(you know what i mean)

    How about little thing, giving you hints, that what you did matters?
    This idea is mine, from RPG session i did years ago, when i was forced to think up stories- our hero helped somebody because he could. Not because there was reward, experience, loot or gold, but because he was around and he was able to help. Sort of Wandering Knight style. And just before he leaves village, little girl runs up to him with flower. Just old, plain field flower. And because this was given with real gratittude and love it turns in to sort of lucky charm. You don`t get "+5 luck" in descripiton or anything. Just plain flower, that is important, because it was a honest gift.

    I`m sorry i`m drunk, and just finished reading Percy Bysshe Shelley poetry, so i got pretty emotional XD
    ... AND i forgot my point... Help me find it
    Last edited by Bazielim; 29th Apr 2016 at 12:34. Reason: tou#4

  21. #71
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Wouldn`t it be too complicated? I`m not questioning, nor saying "this be stoopid", i`m just asking "how do we pack this up?"
    It's not Nosgoth if it's not overly ambitious. Soul Reaver left a third of its material on the cutting floor. :P And every game since has left material on that same floor. Even the original Blood Omen scrapped a game between Kain and Vorador.

    And technically, you can just bail on Skyrim's main storylines. You just invent your own courtesy of its massive world.
    As far as what you've described, such mechanics are more common nowadays...Story choices, spare or execute, etcetera...But there is a rational limit involved. To use your example: Alduin cannot be made good. He's too far from it for that to be remotely viable. He is literally born to destroy the world. And "forcing" one to goodness is arguably an evil in itself.


    As for the 'flower' idea, that is a perfectly doable thing...If writing can bear it. That little girl giving you a flower won't mean anything if the girl is some pesky throwaway stereotype of children (as most child characters are in games). And Nosgoth, dark place as it is, leaves little room for such sentimental instances. But the general idea can work if executed well, yes. The world can shift based on your choices or NPCs can behave differently, or you can gain tokens of appreciation just there to be tokens...Or some combo of the three.

    And every clan would likely believe Kain was their creator. He is their deified father passed through generations in legend. And yes, you'd play a vampire separate and unique from the other clans, of course. Each one Kain raised was unique.

    @Gen: Love it. Love everything about it. It would be interesting to see how a "proper" made vampire does by Kain. The ones Vorador makes (BO2) are rather uninteresting. But Vorador, presumably made 'proper' by Janos, took a rather distinct form...I do wonder what Kain would produce through blood.
    After the forum goes down, I can be found on Steam, Twitter, and Facebook.

  22. #72
    "Proper Vampire made by Kain" as in "without corruption" i assume? Yeah it`d be nice thing, but i doubt, we`d seen much of his/hers changes. And even if Kain is healed by Soul Reaver, we still don`t know if our hero would be completly free from it:

    1. If he/she was made by Elder God, there can be some slight influence even after sides changing. We all saw how Hylden were able to "subtly" influence Raziel, and Elder was also capable of mind him every now and then to shake his resolve, and putting different obstacles in his way

    And that kinda leads to-

    2. Vampire soul is- to my understanding- thing that is very attached to its body, stagnate really, so in a way, it recives more influence and impulses form all things that happens during un-life, than humans. Killing people and drinking blood to prolong your own, after all, cursed existence is somewhat corrupting, i`d say(i am not hypocritical enough to deny that we do the same thing when we eat chicken, only less magic, more digestion involved). So maybe, like with "Nosgoth" vampires changes in apperance and deformations toward more efficient forms would be less monstrous than in "Soul Reaver", but still present?

    I`m not picking a fight- Ygdrasel- i`m throwing idea around.

    I was wondering if we could use Hylden somehow- i admit, i preferred "Legacy..." storyline without them in it, but they are very improtant now, so not using them would be kind of waste- i may not like them and what they brought in to the story, but i must admit, thier city architecture and technology were something to behold :P and have nightmares about

    So, what say you? Our main protagonist can join them, or thier worshipp at least?(I don`t see us joining them on a racial level, as they don`t really transform people and even if, our descent "to godhood" would be little farfetched.) Sharing thier wisdom and truths about vampires and thier origins through Vessels- choosen priests- or as they clearly aren`t religious- propaganda agents , proving that they are victims in this conflict. And of course joining them. So we`d have another option open

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    "Proper Vampire made by Kain" as in "without corruption" i assume? Yeah it`d be nice thing, but i doubt, we`d seen much of his/hers changes. And even if Kain is healed by Soul Reaver, we still don`t know if our hero would be completly free from it:

    1. If he/she was made by Elder God, there can be some slight influence even after sides changing. We all saw how Hylden were able to "subtly" influence Raziel, and Elder was also capable of mind him every now and then to shake his resolve, and putting different obstacles in his way

    And that kinda leads to-

    2. Vampire soul is- to my understanding- thing that is very attached to its body, stagnate really, so in a way, it recives more influence and impulses form all things that happens during un-life, than humans. Killing people and drinking blood to prolong your own, after all, cursed existence is somewhat corrupting, i`d say(i am not hypocritical enough to deny that we do the same thing when we eat chicken, only less magic, more digestion involved). So maybe, like with "Nosgoth" vampires changes in apperance and deformations toward more efficient forms would be less monstrous than in "Soul Reaver", but still present?

    I`m not picking a fight- Ygdrasel- i`m throwing idea around.

    I was wondering if we could use Hylden somehow- i admit, i preferred "Legacy..." storyline without them in it, but they are very improtant now, so not using them would be kind of waste- i may not like them and what they brought in to the story, but i must admit, thier city architecture and technology were something to behold :P and have nightmares about

    So, what say you? Our main protagonist can join them, or thier worshipp at least?(I don`t see us joining them on a racial level, as they don`t really transform people and even if, our descent "to godhood" would be little farfetched.) Sharing thier wisdom and truths about vampires and thier origins through Vessels- choosen priests- or as they clearly aren`t religious- propaganda agents , proving that they are victims in this conflict. And of course joining them. So we`d have another option open
    Gen's idea was that Kain make the player character a vampire via "proper methods", I.E. through blood transfusion on living people. Kain's original children were raised as necromancy from corpses, an unnatural method even by vampire standards, and the source of their corruption.

    By contrast, Vorador was made through blood. He still changes.

    "And even if Kain is healed by Soul Reaver, we still don`t know if our hero would be completly free from it" - Yes we do. If Kain has no corruption to pass on, none is passed on.

    I don't know what your point is at all with 1. Yes, the Hylden and the Elder God are manipulative. And?
    As for 2, as noted above, Vorador was made by the proper method and still displays change. So yes, they'd still change with time. By all accounts, evolution is a vampiric process regardless. It's only the breakdown of that evolution that relies on corruption. We could still see plenty of change. (And we certainly do not do the same when we eat chicken. Chickens are not sapient.)

    The Hylden brought most of the series mythology with them. What's not to like? And the only storyline without them in it was Soul Reaver.

    Joining the Hylden makes little sense though. By the time they escape in Blood Omen 2 (some time before Kain even raises the lieutenants), they've become genocidal bitter monsters. Of course, if they played up the 'victim' card and less the 'planned genocide' thing for our protagonist...There's possibility.

    BO2 also gives us The Seer who is Hylden at least in part - and whose ultimate fate is never explicit. Hylden influence or history could be served through her, given that she is a pre-banishment Hylden, very old and not possessed of the same malice as the imprisoned ones.
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  24. #74
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    Glad you like it Ygdrasel

    Part of me thinks the evolution is the body adapting to support the dark gift as it develops, bringing their form closer to that of the original source of the gift (the ancient vampires); but because the body is human it isn't a complete transition, creating the vamps we know (which you might consider to be hybrids).

    Theoretically then, a Hylden could be turned vampire; and that could be an interesting back story for Seer from BO2. A female Hylden turned vampire, as time passed her formed evolved to the form we saw as the dark gift developed. That could be what saves her from being banished to the demon dimension during the rise of the Pillars.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 25th May 2016 at 20:09.

  25. #75
    I meant- Gen gave idea about being resurrected by Elder God. That`s pretty freaking important if you ask me. Then there was double crossing our hero. And Kain steps in, no? But would our Hero be free completly? Elder could still have some influence over him/her. That was my point
    Second point- i think vampires are all evolving in to a monster. More or less ugly- they can be pretty, we all saw Vorador`s court- but monsters nonetheless. They need to become more efficient in hunting and killing. The very nature of Dark Gifts needs it. That was my second point. I was waondering how our hero would look like in the end.

    Seer is partialy vampire- she has fangs, that rest of her race don`t possess, and clearly didn`t get banished like rest of them. And she seems like good master to join at the very least she won`t throw somebody from cliff
    I always wondered if she was turned vampire, or maybe born to mixed couple

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