Thread: Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG

Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG

  1. #26
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    No Tony= No Elder. Nobody will be able to replace him true we can have another talented guy do his part, but... This ain`t the same and that is why i proposed Elder "killed", just so you know.
    Another victim of the false nostalgia-induced concept of "Nobody can replace [x]!". But in reality, he can be replaced. He was just a voice, and not even the only deep menacing voice in the world. We'll certainly never get a resolution if people keep falling into that silly mindset though.

  2. #27
    1. Vampire bloodlines and it's Sudo prequel Redemption are some of the best RPGs out there and have a great take on vampires.

    I wouldn't mind an LOK RPG or Nosgoth RPG. Would be a good change to all the high fantasy out there.

    As for Tony and Paul passing yeah it's still crazy sad but finding a replacement wouldn't be that hard. Getting Earl Boen (Sarafan lord in BO2) would be a good replacement for Tony or Donald Sutherland. However if it ever does happen they'll probably get Corey Burton to do it (Kingdom Hearts series, any deep voice Christopher lee replacement)

    Honestly LOK has had a bunch of varying types of action adventure gameplay so seeing it as an RPG (dragon age origins style maybe?) would be interesting.

    Dead Sun look kinda promising minus the story. YES I'm tired of batman/AC combat a bit too but if they did it right...I'll even take the DMC style combat again but please no terrible fixed camera angles.

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by calypso-694
    I'll even take the DMC style combat again but please no terrible fixed camera angles.
    Honestly, Defiance's biggest combat flaw wasn't even that it mimicked DMC.
    It was that its big marketing point was playing both characters - and they both used the same moves. Lame.

    Earl Beon actually replaced Tony Jay once before, voicing the Sarafan Lord (originally the Dark Entity in BO, voiced by Tony). So that would actually be quite appropriate.

    And Bloodlines is pretty great. Rather different version of vampires, granted. XD
    Redemption's gameplay shift killed it for me though.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 12th Feb 2016 at 01:05.

  4. #29
    This is gonna by loooong. Reading on your own responsibility:
    Ok, so i see we can replace people who passed away. I agree, you have a point. I`m leaving this subject- i still hate concept of immortal heroes/antagonists, and it really screws up story for me- save may feel immersion breaking, but idea that you`ll come back anyway INSIDE game world- death is nothing to worry about- it really destroys story(for me) You are almight. Why? Because. But that is my feeling about it. Nevermind

    Before you even start: i know the title of Thread is "Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG" but the more i play RPG the more i see how freaking stupid they are- skill in wearing armours, not to mention how armours are designed these days in games(Deadric armour in "Skyrim"- what the ?! And does anybody in you life awared you with anything just because you know how to wear a hat properly???), baseball style sword fighting with special moves pulled out of creator , not to mention swords and axes made in such a way, that every person out there who knows his/hers weapons runs away and cry in the corner, because then you`ll have whole bunch of fanboys beliving that two handed sword has 30 kg and to wield it you just need strenght.

    Experience needed for learning(any of you had to run outside and kill dog/cat/chicken/razorfish/deer/bear/lion, before you started reading cooking book, or opened a spanish dictioanry??? Why??? It is normal that when i practise fighting i learn about fighting not about alchemy)

    Dumbing down whole game storyline and puzzles, so some 12 old boy won`t run away when he`ll have to >gasp<....(dramatic pause) think for himself. Morrowind- while i don`t like this game(point blank shots from bow or sword swings missig, because i don`t have "skill"), but freedom in there was amazing, for example learning how to cure vampirism was really though- bit and pieces of clues here and there... Skyrim? Go to the guy- any guy(guard if i remember correctly)- he`ll direct you to a guy, who`ll tell you what to do. Morrowind- this guy is important in storyline... Butr you can cut his head off. You won`t progress in this quest line, but you can kill him. Skyrim? Oblivion? Important guys are immortal, and you don`t have any choice with some quest storylines(deadric artefacts for example- you can play goody two shoes, but yuo`ll have to kill, sacrafice, cheat and lie, because otherwise this quest will stuck with you forever)- developers will hold your hand from the begining. In many RPGs: no real change even if you save the world several times. Skyrim- ended cyvil war, killed dragons, destroyed vampire overlord, who threatened to block the sun, kiilled mind controling "other" Dragonborn, became thane all over the place, destroyed Assassin gulid, made whole bunch of things where my character risked his life to protect lives and welfare of Skyrim citizens...

    Then he walks in to the town... "What do you want milk drinker?", "i bet you a 100 septims i can beat you in fist fight"........... Not to mention- you can be Companion- honorable warrior, Thief, assassin, mage and pure blood vampire. One would expect that joining thievs or hitmen would rather close the doors to warriorrs who claim to be honorable. Or beig vampire overlord would change attitude of some people toward you. You waltz in to the town with your eyes glowing red and bloodthirst allover your face. Jarl- "how are you friend?", i change in my more monstrous form, people start fleeing, guards try to take me down. I run away, come back in human form- one of guards stops me... and demand i should pay fine, or go to jail. Dosen`t matter i can grow wings and suck life out of him with the palm of my hand- he just wants me to pay up

    Bandits attacked in wilderness, in the middle of a fight dragon joined in. My character killed it. What bandits do, even after over half of them lies down in pools of blood, and my dragonborn just consumed dragons soul? Still tries to mug him

    Risen- you are master swordsman, killed Shadow Lord in our island, helped mages, helped our guardians, mastered
    crystal magic, and have enough stamina to outrun a deer. Wonderful- you`ll start as our whipping boy, like everyone...



    I`m gonna cry. Or not. But RPGs are by definition most moronic games out there, only slashers, when one guy plows through whole unit with one swing of sword, and combat games like "Mortal Kombat" are stupider- i have a sword that has +1 to bleeding... but you have armour that grants protectiuon against barbed swords(...really? barbed swords? Who the fight with a sword that has spikes?!) so we need to throw a dice to determine who recives damage...

    You see what i am saying here? Hacking at the enemy for half an hour just because i have 10 in sword wielding skill and he has 100000000000 hp is not going be fun in LOK world. If anything i`d vote for action game with RPG elements- no, not GTA style, hate this freaking game- more of a rather experienced hero(nobody can learn fighting in 2 days- i mean from complete zero. And anyone who ever trained knows that theory is easy- making body listen and move properly is not) that learns additional skills, spells, completing his own abilities- they make journey easier but most of them aren`t really necessary. In Soul Reaver, aside form boss battles, you don`t have to fight even once- you can go through the game like Pope Innocent III- now that is(partially) freedom, you don`t need glyphs, weapons, fire reaver- they make life easier, but you don`t need them.

    1. Common sense when developing combat, armours, skills- i`d love to see it at least once

    2. And puzzles- something that rewards logicall thinking and ability to focus- on contents of dialouges, encoutered books, and scattered pieces of lore- for more than 5 seconds.

    3. Boss fights that require thinking and looking for weak point- but for the love of God- not some glowing/pulsing/bleeding/etc part of body periodically left ungarded so my character can went all of his frustration after dodging for an hour and a half. Leave something to my invention. Like enviroment kills or something. Collapse freaking pillar on him. Example- lore freaks won`t like it, but it is only example, something i came up with just now for the sake of argument- Zephon, looking more like some Hindu god, 3 meters tall, 3 pairs of hands, holding long sabres(rather than this immobilized Alien Queen parody) but of course with all of his demonic looks. We fight him in his chamber. Big chamber, lots of curtains made of spider like web allowing our enemy to jump around unnoticed, dissappear without a trace somwhere in the darkness near roof- we try to go through a web, we get stuck- he uses this curtains as traps or distractions- generates sounds that make us hear his footsteps behind us. What should we do? Well. we can try fire- setting silk ablaze, use our skills to try and push Zephon it to his own net and then trying to damage him, before he rips it, find a way out- imagine duel on the top of a Silenced Cathedral, fighting to push enemy from the top in to the moat/spikes/just fall damage(if he fall on his back, he`ll get squashed), or using tip of the buliding to generate sound that will stunn him long enough for us to do something nasty- and in, lets call it that, my game every single of these solutions would be used in game. Just so you can fight in different ways and try to think

    Give me game like that, with dark story from the realm of Nosgoth- and i`m more than willing to fork over cash. Give me something more than another generation of Busty Riders(with exception of a last one- that was neat game), Assassin Freaks, Sims, Zombie Plowing(Resident Evil), Call of Duty, or other self generating clones. I need me some proper game that will show the world that this can be medium, and can show interesting story- alongside books and films. That this is an art form
    "Heavy Rain"- in case you wondering what game can be art
    Verry sorry dor such a long post
    Last edited by Heretic_13; 15th Feb 2016 at 23:35.

  5. #30
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    is it true that there might be a new LOK game coming out?..if so i hope it will be for 360 and ps3 case i only have a 360..idc if its for the newer gen consoles but they cancled dead sun before it chould even make a offical apperince to gaming stores..so it should be on 360 and ps3 for the important part..case i cant afored it a new console like ps4 or xboxone i also hope they add some of that combat system like what dead sun had..im not an ASC fan or a Batman arkhim fan..i just like what was seen and think it should be added the counter attack abilty for countering a enemys attack before it hits you when prompt..do you guys also know anything bout why people were hyped to see anthere possable LOK game?..if so reply when you can..and i hope they dont cancle this one not everything can be completly fixed..even morador has a few probs other then texture bugs had long load times even in cutscences which might have been lag even crashed alot but updates were made to eather fix or shorten some of these to the point were it was very rare to happen..bugs will even happen during devolpment but some can be hard to notice but will show up in beta testing..then are taken back to be fixed..or at the very least changed were it rarly happens as i saied..theres going to be bugs in every game most of which cant be fixed at all but changed so if any of you guys work for squire enix or edios whichever company is thinking of making the new LOK game along side one of those dont try to push yourself to fix a single thing that looks like it cant be fixed change it were it doesnt happen alot were it rare....its not worth cancling the whole game over..if load times are like 3 hours long try and change to be 5 maybe 10 mins moradors was almost that long when i 1st got it...until the updates...rarely crashes and freezes ..no mor 1 hour load times and hardly lags...companys like you squire enix cant always stop them..yes when they get a game and stuff like that happens people will get upset..but if some of your staff have time to programe updates to fix these after the game is out then do it..it will make alot of people happy to see that it doesnt happen as often with updates..it may still happen but it will be rare if it does...good luck with the new LOK game im looking foword to it..and try not to cancle it this time ofc it might might not..but im not expecting i ..but it does come out..i hope it has some good combat and stuff like dead sun before it got cancled..peace and leave a reply when you can

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    But RPGs are by definition most moronic games out there
    If you want to rant on about how awful it is that games set in fictional non-realities are unrealistic (however silly such a rant is), go right ahead but there is nothing by definition that makes them the "most moronic games out there". And whatever its quality as art may be, 'Heavy Rain' is a really bad game. It shouldn't be the standard for anything.

    Also you blatantly have no idea what "parody" means. And that entire fight you describe with Zephon is just as formulaic as the kind you rail against...

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Also you blatantly have no idea what "parody" means. And that entire fight you describe with Zephon is just as formulaic as the kind you rail against...
    Oh really? what is not as "formulaic" then? Fight Kain vs Elder God form Defiance, when we have big freaking eye, that "drops guard" every few minutes? Or Raziel vs Turel, when all was missing is a big red pointer showing us, what we need to hit? Or maybe some idiotic, over the top thing, like in "Gods of War" or "Gears of War"?- i played for 15 minutes both, and dropped them right there. Ain`t my type
    If new LOK game would ever rear it`s ugly head, eventual boss fights i`d want to be just like first Soul Reaver- you need to find solution- Use enviroment. Not going "max dmg" on nobody- just find a proper way(s) to deal with someone, you can`t harm normaly- that is what i want. And as i pointed "my fight" with Zephon is only example. I thought of it the moment i wrote this. I don`t mean i want it "just like this" i new game
    I didn`t "rant"(ok, a little, but i didn`t mean to do that)- i pointed that RPGs are by the very nature moronic and as unrealitic(i mean... you know what i mean, i wrote all this stuff above), as video games can get
    So if anything- let LOK stay in TPP world, as it is. If you want RPG elements, like learning new skills, fine. But they need to be tools, not focus of the game, like you have in Skyrim, Gothic, or Risen(you won`t get some quests/items/skills/progress in main story unless you haven`t reach certian level, gulid, or have enough experience points.)- you don`t need proper level, xp points, just "right place, right time", or if this will be some trainer- bit of gold.
    Heavy Rain is bad game, but proper story. Just as Legacy of Kain always was. Even the weakest parts still have story that pulls you toward a computer, and make you forget about gameplay, that is really, and be honest here, clunky and inelegant. It shows there are a ways to make a video game that can be just as good as book, or movie. And that is it. That is what i want. End of story

  8. #33
    And one more thing: combat system. Yes, it is relevant. To this day i basically saw only two combat systems that were good enough for this type of games. One: "Severance: Blade of Darkness" and some titles that used combat sytems much like it: "Jedi Outcast: Jedi Knight 2", "Jedi Academy" and "Dishonored"/"Dark Messiah"- with last ones having pretty fun kicking/enviroment kill mechanic, and magic always at the ready intead of "equipping" it. The direction of movement had not only changed the way of attacking, but also changed direction of attacks, and possible "going around" enemy parade intead of force bashing shield outta the way, and hacking at enemy. Finesse
    Two: "Batman: Arkham Asylum"- if you insist on mainly hand-to-hand combat. In this i only admire free-flow, and simple, intuitive mechanic of fighting, definetly not this over the top movements, or complete lack of melee weapons(... Sighhhhh... If you have skill, why not use weapons???)

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    If you have skill, why not use weapons???)
    Because Batman doesn't kill. Depending on the writer.

    The Witcher has nice combat. Weapons, mobility, stealth options IIRC.

    As far as RPG aspects go, I'm pretty sure people just want the open world and non-linearity. Basically, they want options to not go in a straight line 100% of the time. Blood Omen is a great example, Soul Reaver too but less so. SR2 and Defiance got very...Straight. Nobody's asking for XP levels and all that. They want the narrative and world-building aspects of an RPG, not the gameplay mechanics.

    And in regard to your Zephon idea: "Push him into the sticky web then attack until he breaks out" is exactly as formulaic and obvious as Turel or the EG or...Zephon's actual battle, really. They're all timing puzzles, and timing puzzles operate via formula.

    Now if you want a more dynamic sort of battle, maybe Zephon chases Raziel up through the catacomb-esque hive of his lair (Picture the hivey parts of the Nosgoth map, all gross, webby, hole-ridden and cavern-tunnely but over a much vaster and connected area), lunging with his crazy dual-jaws, chucking cocooned humans to knock Raziel down.

    So Raziel must avoid/outrun him - maybe taking different paths to slow Zephon's progress, say he can slip through crevices where Zephon (due to his size) would be forced to pause and tear away some obstructive webbing or some such.

    Raziel ends up cornered at the top of the building but squeezes through a crack. Zephon bursts through shortly after leading to something akin to the SR battle at the pinnazle, all claws and eggs. But instead of lighting the eggs aflame, they're fired at Raziel and burst into little spider swarms upon contact, damaging him via many small bites.

    When Zephon's claws come down, Raziel must position himself so that he can dodge and Zephon will accidentally tear away webbing clogging up a number of lever mechanisms (three is standard). Once all three are unobstructed and Raziel pulls them, it triggers the Cathedral's massive sound weapon and ends Zephon once and for all.


    "But how can he chase you when he's stuck into the walls??" - He REALLY hates Raziel. Extend the usual cutscene and have him tear himself loose out of sheer spite, give Raziel a nice scare...Then to the chase!

    "But the weapon would kill ALL vampires!" - Says who? Canon? It was never used. The humans? They're human. They can overestimate. But hey - it's still strong enough to kill a lieutenant, at least a weakened one (remember, Zephon is a part of the Cathedral. Tearing loose to chase after his brother would cause some major flesh wounds, at the least.)




    Only the second phase is really environmental but the lead-up gives a sort of vicious predator vibe to Zephon and avoids the timing-puzzle formula (though this returns somewhat in phase two).

    (And Heavy Rain is a very poor story for many reasons, mostly cut plot threads left dangling without explanation, nonsensical twists and really terrible voicework destroying any emotional depth...)
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 25th Mar 2016 at 06:39.

  10. #35
    Well, then we are basically agreeing with each other(....O_o... What the???) You just thought of something cooler than me- regarding Zephon battle.
    I have nothing against Zephon going Alien Queen on my.... What is that thing? Is this still counts as butt when there is no fat and skin on it?... Anyway this would reall scare the life out of some people, when after reciving some dmg Zephon just roars "Enough of this !" and stands up
    Killing Zephon with sound activated by him would be cool. I have nothing to add here. If anything, maybe first some impact trauma from high place, and the finishing him off with sound? Something along these lines?
    Batman, original one from 1930`s was brutal, and sometime he`d killed some bad guys, which is far more interesting to me than this 70`s "Perfect hero" one. But whatever. I meant this: let`s agree that Soul Reaver 1 era vampires are feral beasts(sighhh...) and they have only some degree of thier previous intelect. But i have two big but`s(No pun intended):
    1. Stupid animals(no animal is stupid, but i needed a word here), no matter how powerfull, or big, can be easliy destroyed with tactic and proper tools. Turelim has telekinesis? Fine our Crossbowmen start wearing this big pavises, like Genoese crossbowmen. Zephonim has weps? We`ll set them on fire. They have claws? We have armor. And so forth. But humans never managed that, so it seems, vampires still have some degree of tactical thinking
    2. So why won`t they carry anything??? Stupid knife and spear and you are set. "They are feral".... are they stupider than jungle monkeys? Because even chimp knows that with big, heavy stick or rock he can kill something that he wouldn`t bare handed.
    But that is only my personal prefference. I imagine armed vampire should be tougher, and more fun to kill.
    Because, no, claws aren`t that threatening to someone in armor

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Well, then we are basically agreeing with each other(....O_o... What the???) You just thought of something cooler than me- regarding Zephon battle.
    I have nothing against Zephon going Alien Queen on my.... What is that thing? Is this still counts as butt when there is no fat and skin on it?... Anyway this would reall scare the life out of some people, when after reciving some dmg Zephon just roars "Enough of this !" and stands up
    Killing Zephon with sound activated by him would be cool. I have nothing to add here. If anything, maybe first some impact trauma from high place, and the finishing him off with sound? Something along these lines?
    Batman, original one from 1930`s was brutal, and sometime he`d killed some bad guys, which is far more interesting to me than this 70`s "Perfect hero" one. But whatever. I meant this: let`s agree that Soul Reaver 1 era vampires are feral beasts(sighhh...) and they have only some degree of thier previous intelect. But i have two big but`s(No pun intended):
    1. Stupid animals(no animal is stupid, but i needed a word here), no matter how powerfull, or big, can be easliy destroyed with tactic and proper tools. Turelim has telekinesis? Fine our Crossbowmen start wearing this big pavises, like Genoese crossbowmen. Zephonim has weps? We`ll set them on fire. They have claws? We have armor. And so forth. But humans never managed that, so it seems, vampires still have some degree of tactical thinking
    2. So why won`t they carry anything??? Stupid knife and spear and you are set. "They are feral".... are they stupider than jungle monkeys? Because even chimp knows that with big, heavy stick or rock he can kill something that he wouldn`t bare handed.
    But that is only my personal prefference. I imagine armed vampire should be tougher, and more fun to kill.
    Because, no, claws aren`t that threatening to someone in armor
    Telekinesis of sufficient power won't be stopped by any pavises. It'd just hit the thing and knock them back regardless. Action, reaction. And the Zephonim are multi-limbed acrobats. They simply wouldn't need weapons - they have extra arms. (Also, given that Infect 'summons' wasps or whatever, I have this idea that a part of their evolutionary experiments involved turning their own bodies into incubation hives for insects. So they'd probably put that to use too.)

    Humans have armor? Supernaturally-powered claws can best that.

    Jungle monkeys are not feral. Feral denotes a creature that was domesticated and became wild later on. Jungle monkeys are wild from birth to death. The vampires belonged to civilization before circumstances cast them into scattered chaos.

    And FYI, a chimp can tear you apart with its bare hands. They don't need sticks and rocks to kill you. Neither do vampires.

    Why? Well, chimps are powerful...And vampires are supernaturally powerful. Weapons are generally unnecessary. Though it's hinted that they used them in the prime of Kain's empire, this would have likely been an intimidation and/or self-discipline thing over any real need.

    Thing is, a chimp could use a weapon because they're smart creatures. The vampires in the SR era? They're not smart. They're feral and insane. There's nobody making weapons for them anymore because their civilization collapsed centuries ago - and their minds are too far gone to wield anything more complicated than a stick anyway.

    Now, personally, I think Psyonix has built up enough of this once-unexplored era to warrant a proper LoK title in the Nosgoth era, to really explore the time period and its populace - and the vampires then could use all sorts of weapons. Imagine facing off against a Zephonim wielding some kind of bo staff thing, you disarm them and run it through their heart...
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 26th Mar 2016 at 03:50.

  12. #37
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    One thing I'd like with regard to the Zephonim in any Soul Reaver remake is this, let Zephon be able to mentally control his spawn. Imagine cut scenes and fights where Raziel is approached by Zephonim that Zephon is speaking through as Raziel makes his way to him through the Cathedral, kind of like mini boss fights leading up to the final battle with the real Zephon.

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    One thing I'd like with regard to the Zephonim in any Soul Reaver remake is this, let Zephon be able to mentally control his spawn. Imagine cut scenes and fights where Raziel is approached by Zephonim that Zephon is speaking through as Raziel makes his way to him through the Cathedral, kind of like mini boss fights leading up to the final battle with the real Zephon.

    I'd always assumed he was doing this basically 24/7. Not full-on control but a constant low-level hive-mind kinda deal. It'd definitely be interesting to see him use them as mouthpieces throughout. Then as you approach him, you see Zephonim swarming around bringing him bound victims to feed...

    They could add some new bits to all the bosses, really, either incorporating Nosgoth tidbits or generally just adding a little more complexity.

    Melchiah could fling corpses from his grotesque flesh-mass or have bodies littered about that he absorbs to boost strength/size - ultimately becoming large enough to necessitate the giant grinder that finishes him off. Maybe if he gets close, he tries to assimilate Raziel into his mass, punting him right into the spectral realm.


    Zephon could utilize his mental trickery, controlling his spawn or twisting up Raziel's mind with illusions and hallucinations throughout the Cathedral and/or during the battle.


    Morlock...Well, he'd be Morlock. Whatever. (Though, given his guarding position, he should be rather stronger...Maybe with a greater gift for telekinesis than the common Turelim rabble, outright tossing Raziel around like Kain does to Sarafan in Defiance or doing some charging stuff.

    They could even reincorporate Turel's territory w/ a more fleshed-out Morlock serving in Turel's place as a boss battle atop the Smokestack if they liked. Frankly, his guarding the tomb makes little sense...Seems like only Raziel has the means to infiltrate it anyway, and Kain seems to want him to do so. Plus the Morlock battle on that little platform is boring. Imagine dueling a powerful spectrally-enhanced vampire on the rim of a massive smog-belching column though. Give him a staggering stomp shockwave that threatens to topple Raziel down into the smokestack. Or to still have him guarding the tomb but available to finish out Turel's place, maybe he gets bested outside the tomb but escapes before Raziel reaves him entirely - so he survives to take over Turel's region later but Raziel still gains a little power from his telekinetic gift.


    Rahab's battle could have his spawn lunging across the platform at random, trying to take Raziel down into the water with their crazy jaws. Add some extra movement to the fight. Maybe the windows Raziel needs to shatter to roast him up are more scattered around and in a higher room, and Rahab keeps raising the water level at intervals forcing Raziel to reach higher ground to avoid drowning and let in the sunlight.


    Dumah could chase you through one of his labyrinths, using that energy constrict like a whip/lasso to injure or drag you backward, lobbing shadow bombs to obscure navigation. To incorporate the ability gained from Rahab, maybe he needs to be tricked into some water after the initial furnace blast sears away some of his protective hide. Maybe at a point, he tries to fling Raziel into deep water - an obstacle planted in the labyrinth to add some sport to their hunts - only to be dragged along, believing he'd survive only to realize too late that Raziel is immune and the fire left him vulnerable...

  14. #39
    Every boss battle could be improved- QTE, more complex rooms, more complex enviroment kills. Everything. World could be free to explore- aside of course Generals quaters- lot`s of new artifacts to be found. Even stupid bits of armor, or weapons that could be carried in to spectral realm. I won`t complain over something like that- if shoulder cape, metal boots and wrist bracers could travel in to the underworld, then sacrafical knife from some primitive culture, that slashed throaths of thier victim and threw them in to Abyss(or whatever shrine, stonehenge or sacraficial pit) in Elder God(or whatever God) name can do this even more- after all objects and places do tend to absorb emotions even in our world

    As for clwas against armor- brace yourself, here comes looong explenation, and i have to put on my Mentor persona, which i don`t like-(chimp could rip human apart- but only if said human stood there and let him. You`d be suprised how strong and durable human body can be. When 2 profesional martial artistans fight- blow to stomach[relatively flat surface] can reach strenght of 2 cars hitting each other head on with speed of 60 km/h. And we still can stand and fight back). I understand that we can say "magic", and that solves everything. Magic- and Dragon can fly like butterfly, without a sound, and ground shaking "whoosh" when he flies by. Magic- and enemy is set ablaze by mere thought(pyrokinesis). Magic- water turns in wine . Magic- sword/claws go through armor, like it wasn`t even there- then why did it hit fles underneath, if it passess through solid objects? Only it is not terribly fun, and don`t look really good. It looks "untrue". If game is to make a proper impact on player- more than a few of laws of our world have to be present.
    If armor is useless- nobody will wear it- what for? It`s only extra weight. So? Will all Vampire Hunters run around naked, or bare chested in new game? Highly doub it- i saw people reactions to bare breasts in Dead Sun gameplay, and would be pretty tedious to see everyone run around like that. Also there is another big "but":
    Just because something is sharp- it won`t go through hard, flexible material. It requires to be of greater hardeness(diamond vs steel for example), proper shape(like drill, or thin blade. Claws arent good penetrating weapons. They are great at slashing and ripping though, but that is preciesly a type of damage that even most primitive armors are made against e.g. early stone age leather armors), and flexibility(so it won`t break hitting hard surface). And strenght. Lots and lots. "Vampire are strong enough". Ok. Let`s assume they are strong enough.

    But no human is able to stand in one place, when such strenght tries to drill through breast plate. He`ll fly away, or bounce back. He is allowed to fight back and try to dodge. Do you even know how much strenght it`s needed to penetrate steel armor? Modern short firearms have problems when distance is big enough(30-40 meters- i`ll find source later, no i can`t seem to find it now. For now i have only this and it`s not terribly convincing, or sientific https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtopxCjs518 time: 1:21 skip the part where he tries to be funny). It`s not only hard, but also flexible. Designed to take great force. Vampire would have to grab human- put him/her on the ground, immobilize him somehow, like in a vice, and press, hoping that steel wont make victim slide to the side... or victim won`t fight back. Knives are such a darings in such situations... Armor is shaped in such a way, so the blows slide and only glance it`s surface. Of Course developers could could make them like daedric armor from Skyrim, that is perfect blows magnet, but i hope not- not to mention, that armor was made form ebony, something like obsidian, which is even harder than steel. And when you train with armor, you learn how to position your body in a way that make even strongest blows just slide off you. And the same goes for parrying with weapons, shields and so on. If one want to hunt vampires, i`d imagine they won`t take farm boy, who never had even long knife in his hands, to do it- it`ll be army of trained professionals

    Lastly, strenght is not needed in a fight, in fact is mostly hindering- throws out of balance. Speed, precision, and finesse. Big dumb brutes are easy targets. Stick a knife in his elbow, and fingers stop responding and guy just lost ability to grip. Get him in the knee, and even regenerator will fall on his face for crucial seconds allowing you to crush his skull. Why would i want to bludgeon somebody till my arms want to fall off, when i can do small movement to pass his block/parry and get him, lightly wounding, make him flinch, loose balance, so my next move can be big and finishing? I have been traning for about 5 years, more if we add my "weekend lessons" with my father before that. Had my share(several) of proverbial "bar brawls" during my university days. I can assure anybody- one hit, one kill is very hard to achive- adrenaline, density of sking, muscles, bones, clothes(stupid winter jacket can take a lot of strenght out of impcat. Leather jacket can stop dagger blade), slightly different personal body features- strenght, height, pain treshold, sometimes drugs and/or alcochol. I once got 17 hits in my face(guy attack me from behind, sat on me and started punching, and yes i was drunk enough to count. It didn`t even hurt that much- only one lip was bleeding, and had a snicker sole shped bruise. I gave back once, from the level of the ground, so icouldn`t really put much strenght in to it, when i got my composure, and blocked his hands- straight into the nose, and he "left me alone". And to top it all off- nobody stand still and let himself to be hit with full force, when he expects it

    If shields aren`t enough, humans will try something different. You said once yourself, Ygdrasel, that this is war, and in war we use only what is efficient And why would pavise be not enough? I didn`t see telekinesis going through rocks, walls, or ground. So soild object can stop it. If human wouldn`t be able to take this force, use some kind of supporting mechanisms, spring activated for example. Zpehonims are acrobats. Why not use a gun that shoots net? Irony, y`know. And then finish monster with flamethrower or even spear. Or use bomb like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmBHd86P5MY
    time:22:54 to 25:15 be patient, i gave some more time to have little background about "thier" vampires
    it`s anime, so it`s over the top, just like our favourite Vampire Saga, but they got some things right
    Sorry for long post

  15. #40
    I quit reading after you suggested that QTEs were any kind of improvement.

  16. #41
    You really like to get stuck on words. You probably don`t know this, but when i write answer, i usually don`t sit around and evaluate, if this was smart, really catchy or whatever. It`s like me speaking my mind. Don`t like QTE? Fine. That was just one idea from top of my head. And i`m not talking about Resident Evil Buttons Smashing- more like, Raziel is creeping around, trying to figure where is Zephon, and boom, suddenly camera changes view, his little bro jumps off the dark ceiling. Something like that. Just the idea. I don`t have scripted "Boss Fight" in my head. I don`t know now, how it should look, or how i would like to see it

  17. #42
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    @Ygdrasel

    Imagine if Zephon created an illusion that made Raziel appear as his old self again, with his tattered wings appearing as a pair of capes; and showing Raziel his clan as they were when last saw them, in his clan territory. At the end, the illusion dissolving as Raziel enters a trophy room that is filled with the bones of his clan; and Raziel once again seeing his horrid form.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    You really like to get stuck on words. You probably don`t know this, but when i write answer, i usually don`t sit around and evaluate, if this was smart, really catchy or whatever. It`s like me speaking my mind. Don`t like QTE? Fine. That was just one idea from top of my head. And i`m not talking about Resident Evil Buttons Smashing- more like, Raziel is creeping around, trying to figure where is Zephon, and boom, suddenly camera changes view, his little bro jumps off the dark ceiling. Something like that. Just the idea. I don`t have scripted "Boss Fight" in my head. I don`t know now, how it should look, or how i would like to see it
    I know what you were talking about. My response was that it's not any improvement. QTEs are cheap and unimaginative and if you fail them, which is common if abruptly placed or timed, it gets very repetitive. 9 out of 10 dentists don't recommend them. :P

    A game that did them right though was God of War. Mostly because they weren't abrupt or punishing - and optional. If you nailed them, you got a little extra points and a cool finisher. If you failed, you could just kill them regularly with no penalty. Maybe something like that for the regular enemies (or the "adult" versions only since the original SR does basically nothing to really differentiate the two)...I could see Raziel tearing off a Zephonim's extra limbs to slow them enough so he could impale them...

    @Gen: That's exceedingly cruel. Naturally, I love it. There could be various segments throughout the Cathedral where Zephon casts Raziel into a new illusion. Maybe some nightmare reimagining of his execution.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 31st Mar 2016 at 22:27.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    @Ygdrasel

    Imagine if Zephon created an illusion that made Raziel appear as his old self again, with his tattered wings appearing as a pair of capes; and showing Raziel his clan as they were when last saw them, in his clan territory. At the end, the illusion dissolving as Raziel enters a trophy room that is filled with the bones of his clan; and Raziel once again seeing his horrid form.
    Oh my... And i thought i have problems

  20. #45
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    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Oh my... And i thought i have problems
    I am a twisted daydreamer after all.


    @Ygradsel
    I like that idea of Melchiah being able to disperse the corpses that make up his body into drones, as if his entire body is made up of ghouls that he controls.

    What if Melchiah is able to make the ghoul spirits possess members of his clan instead of materializing so he can control them? That way we could have moments of dialogue and mini boss fights like we could with the Zephon.

    I like the idea of having to evade Dumah's ghost whenever your in the spectral realm and going through his castle until you have brought him back from death so you can finally finish him. Throw in some moments of dialogue before the start of each chase and I'm excited.

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    I am a twisted daydreamer after all.


    @Ygradsel
    I like that idea of Melchiah being able to disperse the corpses that make up his body into drones, as if his entire body is made up of ghouls that he controls.

    What if Melchiah is able to make the ghoul spirits possess members of his clan instead of materializing so he can control them? That way we could have moments of dialogue and mini boss fights like we could with the Zephon.

    I like the idea of having to evade Dumah's ghost whenever your in the spectral realm and going through his castle until you have brought him back from death so you can finally finish him. Throw in some moments of dialogue before the start of each chase and I'm excited.
    Huh. I never thought about it but wow, Dumah's ghost just hanging around the throne room really does make no sense...



    Melchiah: Various ghouls (of various clans) could populate his territory. Maybe seeing the offspring of his brothers melded into these abominations triggers flashback-style memories in Raziel, offering non-essential tidbits of the Council's past.

    Zephon: Traps Raziel in various hallucinations, Zephon speaking occasionally within them.

    Rahab: Swims throughout the Abbey, watching Raziel from a safe distance and surfacing occasionally to spit a projectile or lunge for him while taunting him about his misinformed notions of Sarafan nobility (vaguely, so as to preserve their conversation at the end meeting).

    Dumah: He hounds you in the spectral realm throughout the ruined city. (Though, what if one never enters it within the city? Is that doable?)

  22. #47
    Finally. You agreed to make changes to "original" "Soul Reaver"
    Ye speaketh truth friends(or not friends- i don`t know what would you like me to be. Dead and/or buried- i presume). This "dragon wait for knight in his lair" style of crap gotta go. But you do realize we are talking about Soul Reaver reamake instead of completly new game? There was a thread about Soul Reaver reamake, but it seems to dried out
    I put Zephon boss fight only as an example, because for some reason he was first to pop in my head when i thought about vampire i`d like to gruesomely kill
    How about setting story about 300-500 years after Raziel and Kain traveled through time machine? Vampires are in full control of themselves again(still ugly as hell but at least sane. More or less. And powers back), start to rebulid thier kingdom, and humans dared by thier absence(after generals disappeard most went into hiding and tried to comprehend what happened) are repopulating Nosgoth. And we have another clash, and another war.
    Why i`d like to do that? No matter how good will be remake- it`ll never be as good as original and many people will feel cheated. So instead let`s visit time that was never visited before, and see what our previous actions accomplished- it gives freedom to story teller, and risk of being impaled by fans is smaller.
    Many people will scream: "i want prequel then". How about lore scattered here and there in old tomes and astral visions that would explain how Kain and Raziel set world straight?(and our favourite actors once more)
    New war would give opportunity to new characters. I will always support idea of being able to stand on either side and choose you hero name and looks(it helps to identify with him/her). Or on many sides if game gave a choice between clans, and thier own fight over supremacy.
    There could be new patriarchs- powerfull but different than thier original creators. After all thier dark gifts work differently, even if slightly. I`d use pagan gods images to create them
    For example for Zephon descendant this hindu god image i mentioned earlier, but with 3-4 faces, molding together, constantly changing, showing different expressions and allowing him to see so much more- twist from pagan slavic gods . Psychic powers of course. Dumah second in comand having this marriage of medieval Japan and Europe armour being part of his skin
    Why not explore unused plots? Like vampie woreshippers? Imagine: you are vampire hunter, exploring vast underground cities lying under this gargantuan tower, that spirals to the heavens(:P), and you meet some primitive tribe, that gives bloody sacrifices to thier vampire gods. When they see you, ther run away- you are not only killing thier gods(how did he do that?), but also you are "from different planet" for them- as they never left Silenced Cathedral or it`s vicinity and all they know is slavery, and didn`t even know that there is otside world and outside humans.
    Or every clan could have thier own way of enslaving humans. Melchahim could offer power to necromancers, but for a price of course. Zephonim- like above, Rahabim... i have no idea, help me , Dumahim- simple catch-and-relase-to-be-catch-and-killed, and Turelim- welcome in to feudal times
    Why not explore other plot holes? Imagine using big vampire hunters force to reclaim Silenced Cathedral and trying to complete it afterwards. Or maybe doing... i shudder to use the word... "quests" to convince other anti-vampire grups- because you need thier help, and man power- that yours is the proper way to get rid of bloodsuckers- one grup is more about open war, other about mass destruction weapon, third is about finding weakness, and exploting it with agents and spies, fourth likes to play with magic, fifth has pretty (no need to go over the top)advanced technology
    Finally visiting all vampires pauating states: Melchiahim in the earth, Zephonim in cocoon, Rahabim as well, Dumahim in metal coffins, some of thier slaves adding armour parts during paupating state, making it literally part of thier body, Turelim sleeping like bats, with feets hooked to the ceiling, Razielim as well(because you can never kill all of yours enemies- look a t me. Russians, Turks, Mongols, Germans, and so on, tried for over a 1000 years, and i still talk in polish )
    Seeing vampires at thier worst- they are not only mindless blood sucking beasts, now they are inteligent blood sucking beasts and are trying to be more efficient
    Sorry for long posts

  23. #48
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    @Heretic 13

    Thats a perfect analogy for the boss fights in Soul Reaver.

    The only problem is that these vampires can't simply get over the madness that afflicts them. By that time, the corruption that caused the madness seems so potent that even fledglings are denied any grace period before succumbing to it. The only ones that showed they still have some mental faculties were the wraiths; and that is just going off the one encounter with the talking Turelim.

    Edit
    @Ygdrasel, If I remember correctly you did need to phase to spectral in order to warp the surroundings so you could reach certain areas within Dumah's keep. Perhaps the map could be made so you could avoid phasing to the spectral; but make the place inhabited by either numerous Dumahim or some human faction so survival in the material realm is difficult, if you wish to avoid Dumah in the afterlife.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 4th Apr 2016 at 17:54.

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by Heretic_13
    Finally. You agreed to make changes to "original" "Soul Reaver"
    Nobody's against changes. They're just against your proposed changes that blatantly ignored the established facts of the lore and tried to rewrite and rearrange massive chunks of both the story and mechanics.

    The vampires can't just be sane again. Their very souls are tainted with madness. They're too far gone for any war. Plus Raziel killed all the patriarchs while their clans were decimated. They couldn't have raised descendants. The only way for new ones to arise AND retain sanity is for Kain to raise a brand new cadre of lieutenants (unrelated to the first batch) after his own purification at the end of Defiance.


    @Gen: It would make sense that humans may have resettled Dumah's city after overthrowing him...They should certainly populate it. And his city is (arguably) somewhat close to Malek's Bastion so they could have salvaged armor and everything too, make a real threat to Raziel.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 6th Apr 2016 at 04:35.

  25. #50
    Then i will propose 4th timeline as setting for my story If Elder God is dead/banished/sealed/so weak he`ll never be able to threaten Nosgoth ever again- and he`ll gets his tentacles whooped in the Nosgoth past- for example time of Sarafan, or Kain will smack his younger self in the head and tell "wait a bit. I`ll deal with someone and yoo can try to dominate world", i think madness will never twist vampires. No?
    After all kill/banishing/etc Elder God will not only erase him from the present or the future, but also from the past, as he is "now and always" and moves prettty freely through time.
    Aaand... i have one "but". I vampires are beyond saving or returning, how do you explain Morlock? I assume, as there is no explenation how did he end up /like that, he is not only one "powerful" vampire in existence. Or we can even make up stuff. So let`s say this: Raziel killed his brothers, most of foot soliders are now insane and damaged beyond saving, but in every clan there is few of "Morlocks". For example they are favourite of thier creators, and so they were made "better". They wait `till time is right- until thier mad siblings die out- and start another vampire generation, without Kain or anybody outside interference
    Something like that?

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