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Thread: Prices way too high

Prices way too high

  1. #26
    Originally Posted by blincoln
    If anyone from Square-Enix' marketing/business department is reading this thread, my recommendation is to do the math and figure out how much it would cost in real-world money to buy all of the add-ons to complete the "free" game. If it's more than twice the cost of a retail game, I think it's safe to say that unless this game is wildly successful (like Halo, Call of Duty, or World of Warcraft-level successful), then that pricing model is not going to work out very well.

    I think there is a potentially a ton of money to be made from this game, but setting the prices up so that it costs many hundreds of dollars to get the complete game is not going to make that happen.
    I don't know how to tell you this, but that's how it works with pretty much every free to play game, including the ones that are "good". If you were to spend your actual money on everything in Warframe, or Planetside 2, you'd be out an absurd amount of money. It's why free to play is the big thing right now, instead of full priced titles. You make more money long-term than what is usually a single investment per player.

    Kind of gross, huh? Vote with your wallets. Support games you like. Let the ty ones fail.
    My name in game/on Steam is Tom Servo. Feel free to say something like "Are you Sdoots?" once more players are around, if you want to be sure.

  2. #27
    Originally Posted by blincoln
    If anyone from Square-Enix' marketing/business department is reading this thread, my recommendation is to do the math and figure out how much it would cost in real-world money to buy all of the add-ons to complete the "free" game. If it's more than twice the cost of a retail game, I think it's safe to say that unless this game is wildly successful (like Halo, Call of Duty, or World of Warcraft-level successful), then that pricing model is not going to work out very well.

    I think there is a potentially a ton of money to be made from this game, but setting the prices up so that it costs many hundreds of dollars to get the complete game is not going to make that happen.
    I really quite like math but I don't need to even really need to do it to figure out the cost is too high, soon there will be 4 classes, 1 skin for each class at 1600 each is 12800 runestones, cheapest way to purchase that here in the UK is £36... that's for 1 skin for each class. eventually there will be 5 classes and the cost goes up to £48 to get a skin for each class. now count them up there are 4 skins per class so we end up paying just shy of £160... now lets not forget the elder skins and assume they are higher price...

    although I don't think this is a truly fair test as I don't imagine most people would but 40 skins + elder skins (however many there may be)

    of course I can't be bothered to work out cost of perks, equipment, boosts, and keys. people who want to pay to get ahead won't buy all of these as if they buy all perks and equipment then why would they boost gold?

    Now if you are American you may think ooooo that's cheap, well not really £ are worth a whole lot more than the $ thus we also earn a whole lot less of them because of their value. todays exchange rate is £48 (enough to buy 1 normal skin per class)= $80
    a normal game will release over here at around the £30 mark but has recently crept up an some AAA titles release at £40.
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  3. #28
    1k per skin is way more tempting than 1.6k. SE should revert the prices, the "fix" that put them all at 1.6k was a mistake.
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  4. #29
    Originally Posted by Khalith
    1k per skin is way more tempting than 1.6k. SE should revert the prices, the "fix" that put them all at 1.6k was a mistake.
    you ever watch scrubs? if you did then that opera singer that JD imagined singing "MIIIIII STAAAAAKE" is probably stood behind them.
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  5. #30
    I will say that I'd buy another skin if the rune/skin setup wasn't so awkward. I'm not paying 7.50 for a skin, I'm paying ten, I just so happen to get a booster packaged with it. Had to show some support, but I do hope it gets changed.

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by Sdoots
    I don't know how to tell you this, but that's how it works with pretty much every free to play game, including the ones that are "good".
    I understand that. It doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it will be a successful business model in the medium- or long-term.

    Originally Posted by Sdoots
    If you were to spend your actual money on everything in Warframe, or Planetside 2, you'd be out an absurd amount of money.
    If I had any interest in those games, I'd be giving the same advice to their publishers.

    Originally Posted by Sdoots
    It's why free to play is the big thing right now, instead of full priced titles. You make more money long-term than what is usually a single investment per player.
    I understand that as well, and I think that to some extent it's a good business model. The basic idea of selling parts of a game individually and letting the players decide which bits they want is at least as old as Dungeons & Dragons, and it seems to have worked out well for both pen-and-paper/tabletop RPG publishers and collectible card-game publishers.

    It also creates a built-in feedback mechanism for the publisher - if the Spelljammer expansion pack or the Aerotech rulebook sells well, it indicates that players like that new element and so it makes sense to offer more products in that same line. Better yet, it provides the funding to do so .

    However, if the publisher gets a vision of limitless dollar signs and sets the prices too high, the whole thing falls apart, because players are less likely to buy any of the products if the individual prices are too high or if the cost to get the subset of the game they actually want to use is too high. For example, when I was a lot younger I ended up spending (over the course of several years) hundreds of dollars on Dungeons & Dragons and Battletech products because each individual product was priced reasonably. On the other hand, when someone tried to convince me to play Warhammer 40,000, I did some quick math in my head and figured out it would have been probably $250 just to start out, with potential costs going way higher depending on how into it I got, and decided I wasn't going to bother.

    There will almost always be a small number of people who are willing to spend a lot of money on a videogame (just like there are people who spend hundreds or thousands on Warhammer 40,000 gear), but I think it's way to small to be profitable on its own given how much it costs to make a videogame these days, and since it puts off the bulk of customers, it's not a recipe for success.

    I could go on and on about the psychological and business aspects of this, but I can sum it up by saying that most of the free-to-play publishers seem to have learned nothing from the "horse armour" add-on for The Elder Scrolls years ago, and the joke that it turned into.

    Originally Posted by Syst3mzero
    Now if you are American you may think ooooo that's cheap
    Actually, I don't . I bought the 20,000 runestone pack because I felt like I'd gotten enough entertainment out of the game (and met enough interesting people) in alpha that I owed it to Psyonix and Square-Enix to pay at least as much as I would for a retail game, but with the current pricing, unlocking all of the things I want to unlock is going to be too expensive in the long term. If I calculate correctly:

    6 classes today + 4 more classes at some point in the beta = 10 classes
    x
    4 custom skins per class = 40 skins
    x
    1600 runestones
    = 64,000 runestones
    = ~US$250 buying the discounted bulk runestone packs

    That's over four times the cost of a brand-new retail game, and it doesn't even include any of the things you can technically buy using in-game gold but which are expensive enough that it's unlikely that anyone will buy more than 1 or 2 that way (like the permanent perks).

    It also doesn't include any add-ons that may be released later on. For an online game that is continuously being added to, I think it makes sense for there to be ongoing fees of some sort - like how Blizzard releases an expansion pack for World of Warcraft every year or two - but if the initial outlay for the complete version of the basic game is more than the base version + every expansion for complex titles like World of Warcraft (or worse, if it is actually more expensive than an entire brand new game console, like the price becomes if you add on the other bits like the weapons and perks), I think that's an indicator that the pricing is way, way too high and will bring in less money overall than if it had been priced more reasonably.

    If you ask me, Square-Enix should be leading rather than following, and setting reasonable, sustainable prices instead of mimicking what other publishers are doing. I still stand by the guideline I originally suggested - aim for the initial game costing twice what a retail box would if the player buys enough runestones to unlock everything, and as add-ons are created, lump them together by 6-12 month periods and price them so that it would cost twice what a retail expansion pack for World of Warcraft, Diablo III or Starcraft would cost if the player decides to buy everything - that's to account for the metaphorical "interest" on the "loan" of letting them play the game for free up-front.

    I use those games as examples specifically (even though I have no interest in playing World of Warcraft, for example) because Blizzard have pretty much illustrated that from a business perspective they're the masters of attracting and retaining online gamers over time, and making an enormous profit while doing it - their methods and pricing model are wildly successful.

  7. #32

    Runestone costs are far too high IMO

    Lets get this out of the way ...I get the game is made to make money.

    However I do feel that the current runestone prices on many items is really high.

    200 rune stones to rent an item for 7days is a rippoff imo and 1000 to have it unlock seems really high too when considering the gold costs

    2000 runestones to keep a perk .. is a ubsurdly expensive

    keys at 500 runestones - Honestly I feel thats taking the piss... Im happy to pay for a tf2 key now and again since I might get a nice item that I can keep or trade .. But currently the items given are just skills or weapons with timers on them :S .. Honestly feels like a massive ripp off

    Even the boosts seem a tad over priced.

    The skins are the only thing on the store atm, That I honestly feel are value for money

    I honestly get that the game is here to make money, But I honestly feel its charging too much for the most basic of items. I can actually see that putting of people in the future , I have 3 friends in the beta currently and I'll be inviting more once I buy a founders pack, But already I have people commenting on how expensive things are.

    While im talking about money etc, Why cant I buy a founders pack outright rather than having to buy 2 bundles of runestones? You guys set the prices .. why not make it so I dont have to buy extra to support the game?

    I love the game I really do love it , The store however is where I see the largest issues in keeping a player base.

  8. #33
    Sorry 0Exroath0, this will go unchanged, trust me.

    I tried to explain the whole idea of high cost = less sales, low cost = more sales.

    as with the majority of people on earth they don't understand volume sales often beat profit made from high prices.

    when you look at the world we live in and the businesses which are closing you can truly understand the way the world works. its the reason ma and pa independent are losing out to monster-mega-mart. its the reason phone and tablet gaming is on the rise and pc gaming is on the decline.

    I dream of the day when a game developer realises if they can only shift 200 skins at x or 800 skins at 1/3 x making more money.

    I dream of a day when game developers make more money because they realise that making microtransactions so cheap that people don't think twice at buying them.

    I dream of a day when sense overcomes stubbornness, when they realise that customer satisfaction fills their bank accounts not high prices.


    its not today though.
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  9. #34
    So so true, But at least posting removes the excuse of "no one complained about the price structure"

    I bought 1 key today , opened a chest and .. yup a 30 day weapon .. joy

    Honestly the money for the founders pack is going else where 1 skin and 2 weapons skins really doesnt sell it to me anymore.

    Quoting Psyonix_Corey "In general we don't want players to specifically grind for a "carrot on a stick" - it encourages a game loop (endless content acquisition) that we don't want to feed. We look at games like TF2, DOTA2, LoL as role models where you log on to play the game and get bonus cool stuff for just doing what you enjoy (occasional class stuff for the class you like playing, uncommon/rare items to further customize your normal loadout, etc.). "

    You guys really need to take alot at those games again .. especially the valve titles .. see why people pay for keys etc constantly.. The items given are always worth it .. here , urgh not even close.. Honestly reminds me of ea games sort of crap :S

  10. #35
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    Yeah.. I've kind of gone from being eager to get into the beta and itching to buy everything there is in the store! To uhm.. Maybe getting a founder's pack before they get pulled at some point..

    If I had a lot of money I'd be all over this stuff, but I don't.. I was for sure going to get a $50 in game immortal bundle until I learned it didn't come with 10k runestones..

    I've been a long time Legacy of Kain fan.. Have nearly all versions of the games, collect what little action figures and comics there are of the franchise.. I'm no stranger to microtransactions, I've experienced them in games since the late 90's!

    If I'm being this iffy about whether or not it's worth the money, that's a really bad sign!

    This is a fun game though! When I do buy something, it'll be more just to awkwardly give my support to it..
    Last edited by Dwapook; 28th Mar 2014 at 03:54.

  11. #36
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    Originally Posted by 0Exroath0
    I bought 1 key today , opened a chest and .. yup a 30 day weapon .. joy
    To be fair, the weapon lasts forever, but once the 30 days are up, the effect runs out and you can pay gold or Runestones to recharge the effect, if you want. And I'm pretty sure it's 30 days of game time, not 30 days real-time. The timers on my weapons aren't going down at all, since I haven't been using them. 30 days x 24 hours x 60 minutes = 43200 minutes of charge time. Since a game on one side is 10 minutes long, you could play 8640 games from beginning to end with the weapon equipped before running out of charge time. Paying a fee to recharge every 8640 games doesn't sound so bad anymore, does it?

    But yeah, perk prices are ridiculous, IMO. For the permanent ones, anyway. But at the very least, you can get everything except skins, boosts, and keys with gold, just by playing the game. You even get an uncommon item chest for every 5 levels you gain in a class, so you unlock free uncommon items in the classes you play the most. Skins are the only thing in the store I would actually buy with Runestones, and they're very reasonably priced. I actually expected them to cost a bit more. The game actually encourages you to play and earn all the equips and skills you unlock, which I think is great. Not only is it not, "pay-to-win," but paying for skills and perks is only if you're really lazy. Gold accumulates surprisingly fast.

    In short, the store is fine because all of the pricey items are totally unnecessary. That's my two cents, anyway.
    Last edited by Viridian24; 28th Mar 2014 at 23:27.

  12. #37
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    Psyonix has no control over pricing and runestone costs. That power belongs with Square Enix, as the publisher, and the end of the day, the primary owner of the property.
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  13. #38

    Key price far too high.

    So far I have 6 different chests that are all obviously locked. The price to buy a key is currently 500 RS for just one!

    I think that considering there is no information of the quality or quantity of item/s that the chest contains that 500 RS is just not justifiable. Especially considering that these items are most likely only 30 day use.
    I don't want to be paying money for something that:

    1. Will get deleted.
    2. Cost's less to rent (and I get to actually pick what one I want)
    3: Could be given to me randomly for free after a game.

    In fact so far the only things that are really worth the RS are the skins.

    Doesn't anyone else think this?
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  14. #39
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    I was thinking like this from the veeeery begining and actually deleted all chests long ago (^,..,^)

    In fact this reminds me of ME3 system where you spend in-game money to get a chest with random items

  15. #40
    I don't think the keys are worth buying anyway, I've gotten tons of random greens thus far for a variety of classes and I feel like every one of them is useless, I don't like the idea of those penalties that are added to them. Now if there were greens that offered unique cosmetics though I might be more tempted to buy keys and actually open chests, imagine a pounce where the Reaver's claws were on fire, a crossbow that fired icy bolts, rocks rising from the ground with the Tyrant's stomp attack, etc. Now THAT I would spend money on in a heartbeat.
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  16. #41
    Originally Posted by Razaiim
    Psyonix has no control over pricing and runestone costs. That power belongs with Square Enix, as the publisher, and the end of the day, the primary owner of the property.
    They do have the ability to voice player concerns to square however.. I hope they try and put forward concerns raise.. Atm the store is the worst part of the game.

  17. #42
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    Originally Posted by DeIYIon
    I think that considering there is no information of the quality or quantity of item/s that the chest contains that 500 RS is just not justifiable. Especially considering that these items are most likely only 30 day use.
    I don't want to be paying money for something that:

    1. Will get deleted.
    2. Cost's less to rent (and I get to actually pick what one I want)
    3: Could be given to me randomly for free after a game.

    In fact so far the only things that are really worth the RS are the skins.

    Doesn't anyone else think this?


    Originally Posted by Viridian24
    To be fair, the weapon lasts forever, but once the 30 days are up, the effect runs out and you can pay gold or Runestones to recharge the effect, if you want. And I'm pretty sure it's 30 days of game time, not 30 days real-time. The timers on my weapons aren't going down at all, since I haven't been using them. 30 days x 24 hours x 60 minutes = 43200 minutes of charge time. Since a game on one side is 10 minutes long, you could play 8640 games from beginning to end with the weapon equipped before running out of charge time. Paying a fee to recharge every 8640 games doesn't sound so bad anymore, does it?

    [...] Skins are the only thing in the store I would actually buy with Runestones, and they're very reasonably priced. I actually expected them to cost a bit more. The game actually encourages you to play and earn all the equips and skills you unlock, which I think is great. Not only is it not, "pay-to-win," but paying for skills and perks is only if you're really lazy. Gold accumulates surprisingly fast.

    In short, the store is fine because all of the pricey items are totally unnecessary. That's my two cents, anyway.
    Last edited by Viridian24; 28th Mar 2014 at 23:26.

  18. #43
    I also tried to explain this to the firefall team. They didn't get it either.

    I wonder if Nosgoth is made in California

  19. #44
    I think you're all misunderstanding how this particular dynamic works

    the chests spawn items with random buffs and penalties, so in theory once a player all the regular items that they're interested in, they'll want to buy the chests to try to find versions that are more optimised for their playstyles

    By making players invest gold/runestones every so often to keep those optimised abilities that they find, they ensure that those players will always have somewhere to meaningful to spend the gold that they build up, or are incentivised to keep investing in the game

    It avoids problems like League of Legends has for instance, where veteran players get everything they want and then their IP just builds up in their account. They nab the next champion when a new one comes around every few months but it barely makes a dent on what they build up

    As for the cheaper content = more purchases thing, I assure you that every business that's surviving the financial downturn is ruled by people who understand this concept, you don't need to explain it to them. I'm sure the runestone prices in Nosgoth were picked with it in mind.

  20. #45
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    Originally Posted by MordaxPraetorian
    By making players invest gold/runestones every so often to keep those optimised abilities that they find, they ensure that those players will always have somewhere to meaningful to spend the gold that they build up, or are incentivised to keep investing in the game.
    Yes, but...

    Originally Posted by Viridian24
    To be fair, the weapon lasts forever, but once the 30 days are up, the effect runs out and you can pay gold or Runestones to recharge the effect, if you want. And I'm pretty sure it's 30 days of game time, not 30 days real-time. The timers on my weapons aren't going down at all, since I haven't been using them. 30 days x 24 hours x 60 minutes = 43200 minutes of charge time. Since a game on one side is 10 minutes long, you could play 8640 games from beginning to end with the weapon equipped before running out of charge time. Paying a fee to recharge every 8640 games doesn't sound so bad anymore, does it?
    Okay let me further put this into perspective...
    If you equipped an uncommon or rare item with a 30-day charge and used that item every single game, and you went for 2 months without any sleep, and got into every single game instantly, without waiting in the queue time or any lobby, then you would have to recharge it at the end of those two months. Basically, if you spent 100% of your mortal time in-game, playing, no sleeping, eating, showering, or waiting in a lobby for a game to start, it would take two months before you had to recharge an item.

    With the insane amount of charge time you get on an item, it's not realistic that they could make any money off of this particular factor. It's more like, they make money off of all the keys bought, if players choose to buy them. In my experience, the negative stats outweigh the positive ones, to the point where I'd rather just use standard items.
    Last edited by Viridian24; 28th Mar 2014 at 23:34.

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by Viridian24
    Yes, but...



    Okay let me further put this into perspective...
    If you equipped an uncommon or rare item with a 30-day charge and used that item every single game, and you went for 2 months without any sleep, and got into every single game instantly, without waiting in the queue time or any lobby, then you would have to recharge it at the end of those two months. Basically, if you spent 100% of your mortal time in-game, playing, no sleeping, eating, showering, or waiting in a lobby for a game to start, it would take two months before you had to recharge an item.

    With the insane amount of charge time you get on an item, it's not realistic that they could make any money off of this particular factor. It's more like, they make money off of all the keys bought, if players choose to buy them. In my experience, the negative stats outweigh the positive ones, to the point where I'd rather just use standard items.
    I'm afraid your argument doesn't make any sense

    the devs are still going to get a repeat purchase on an item that a player liked, even if it comes a year or so down the line, that is great forward thinking and sounds perfectly fair to me

    What are you going to buy when you have all the standard items that you want? Just because you in that situation wouldn't take a gamble to try to get something more optimised doesn't mean that other people would make the same decision

    It sounds more like the Key mechanic simply isn't a good fit for you, rather than being a poor fit for everyone. It simply has a target audience of which you are not a part

  22. #47
    The target audience you talk about is called " stupid customers". Maybe people should stop supporting and defending idiotic business models and terrible prices. The most important decisions lack foresight and economic thinking.
    A sane person would do nice little bundles that hold value, and not high priced low value "crap".

    1 example: Sell all skills and weapons for a class as class bundle? Make a GOOOD prize and people will LOVE you FOR ITTTTtttt.
    Prize it like ~ 4 dollars for 3 weapons ,4 skills and a perk of choice.
    Now tell me anyone who spends money on the game that would NOT buy that...
    They have endless good possibilities for cool bundles!
    The total money earned would be much bigger, and the customers would be happy as well. ----BASIC ECONOMY---
    Instead everything is so stupidly high prized, that people that think about their money wont waste a thought on it.

    As someone said above, there will be much more customers for actually attractive content, and not overly prized and fancy worded bundles. Getting random things and a name badge for a large amount of money, is only gonna attract that much people.

    What are you afraid of? That they will do better prizes for all? Better tell people who want fair business to off, or the standard "stop playing if you dont like it. If you want to get rid of the people who fight for a better everything, do reconsider your own attitude as its probably being the one holding the good things back.

  23. #48
    Originally Posted by smellslikedeo
    The target audience you talk about is called " stupid customers". Maybe people should stop supporting and defending idiotic business models and terrible prices. The most important decisions lack foresight and economic thinking.
    A sane person would do nice little bundles that hold value, and not high priced low value "crap".

    1 example: Sell all skills and weapons for a class as class bundle? Make a GOOOD prize and people will LOVE you FOR ITTTTtttt.
    Prize it like ~ 4 dollars for 3 weapons ,4 skills and a perk of choice.
    Now tell me anyone who spends money on the game that would NOT buy that...
    They have endless good possibilities for cool bundles!
    The total money earned would be much bigger, and the customers would be happy as well. ----BASIC ECONOMY---
    Instead everything is so stupidly high prized, that people that think about their money wont waste a thought on it.

    As someone said above, there will be much more customers for actually attractive content, and not overly prized and fancy worded bundles. Getting random things and a name badge for a large amount of money, is only gonna attract that much people.

    What are you afraid of? That they will do better prizes for all? Better tell people who want fair business to off, or the standard "stop playing if you dont like it. If you want to get rid of the people who fight for a better everything, do reconsider your own attitude as its probably being the one holding the good things back.
    Everything you've said here was basically what I was expecting on the store.

    The store as it is feels nothing more than an exploit our players sort of deal.

    As I've said before the skins are appealing because they feel worth your money... Why the hell can I buy a skin for 1600 rs and to buy a perk it costs 3000 rs? WHO THE HELL PRICED THESE!

    I have a few more friends in the beta now... well I did, 4 joined played looked at the store .. basically said this and uninstalled.

    This is a free 2 play game , It needs people to constantly buy from the store to survive. So I have no idea what is going on here.
    Are you planning on killing your game off a couple of weeks after open beta?

  24. #49
    I really wish they would address this even though its 99% never going to be altered. So far it is the only real big downside to the game...
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  25. #50
    i would also like to add tht the runestones are way over priced 9200 for $40..........................

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