Page 3 of 3 First First 123

Thread: Deep Dive: Nosgoth Leagues Season 1

Deep Dive: Nosgoth Leagues Season 1

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by Jarvz1
    1. When grouped as 4, and facing another group of 4, a "queue-dodge" should count as a forfeit, giving a win and loss appropriately to all members.
    Rationale: Queue dodging is already a large part of leagues. Lobbies take forever to start because of this and some glitches related to last second queue dodging have been abused.
    Why so complicated? Just remove lobbies in ranked already! That way people can't dodge lobbies they dislike, and everything is dandy.
    ..well not everything... actually hardly anything... nevermind.
    Still though, lobbies are not needed in ranked.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,424
    Hi all,

    Just wanted to address a few questions to hopefully clarify a few things


    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    Can you elaborate on the point-gain limit? I don't think I completely understand what you were trying to say there.
    The bonus pool only hold 160 points a month, but how many points do you get per avarage for a win/loss, and how many of those bonus points are going to be part of that?
    In relation to the bonus pool, I'll have to defer to Jonathan's expertise so he can expand on it for you guys, I've given him a heads up about the posts/questions.

    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    Another concern is the mixing of players regardless of tiers. Most of the matches I played were either 3v4 because someone left/crashed - or, arguably even worse, because one guy on the team was just miles outside of the skill range of the other 7 players, which severly impacts the game.
    Is there anything you can say on that topic?
    Jonathan may be able to add to this, but it is designed to match you with people of a similar skill level, but this will depend on players that are online. In general with the matchmaking, if it doesn't find a suitable match in a reasonable time frame, it expands out to find you a match beyond that.

    Originally Posted by riccetto80
    Still bad idea give prices for public ranked, was more intelligent give prizes only to ESL where there is more control, rules and so on.
    Per the announcement we are going to be increasing the prize fund with ESL matches to cater to the team-based nature of that tournament, but the Solo Series will exist alongside that, and caters to a different kind of player. It will also (as the blog mentioned) draw in more new players.


    The anticheat must work togheter with ingame report system + manual check of suspect players, a anti-cheat alone with no ingame report will never be effective.
    In-game reporting is coming, it just won't be ready in time for October 1st. Anti-cheat, automatic checking of top players, and manual checking of suspect players will all still be happening. Reporting players to Customer Support isn't as quick as an in-game reporting system would be, but it doesn't take long, and the only thing that's *essential* to include is a link to the suspect player's profile.


    Originally Posted by HexMee
    Also, while the increased ESL funds for October is obviously super duper awesome news, could we get some clarification on that?
    Is it added on top of the old prices or does it replace them? Will it be spread out between the weekly tournaments or is it only for the monthly finals? Is it 1st place only? etc etc..
    The ESL/we will be sharing more info on that soon, stay tuned! We'll post a separate thread with the details for everyone to make sure it doesn't get missed

    Originally Posted by Gugulug5000
    You have to get Blood league to get the skin now?
    The special reward skin within Leagues is intended to be an exclusive reward, something you can win by hitting a high rank and can show off your skill level with. Once our Beta ended (where we awarded the Hunter skin) we looked at both the feedback and the stats on our side to see if that was working as intended, and the skin turned out to be easier to obtain than was designed.

    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    Well, all they did was call what was previously Season 1 "Beta 2". No changes have been made, its just a different name. Talk about red herings.
    I'm not sure how it's a red herring when we are open and clear about the schedule
    Season 1 is the full launch of Leagues, but as we already announced we'd be doing prizes, we didn't want to take that away from everyone so we're going ahead with those. There are more improvements to come to Leagues, and they'll hit for our Season 1 launch.
    Square Enix Europe Community Manager
    Nosgoth Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,424
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Actually, development has a lot of things that require trial and error. That's why Beta periods are required.
    This is exactly spot on!

    Originally Posted by riccetto80
    You dont ask yourself how they will check? is enough they says they will check? this solve the problem?
    I can appreciate that you want detail on how this will work, but I'm sure you can also appreciate that this isn't information we can give out, as giving hackers information on how our system works only serves to compromise it.
    Players ranked in Eternal will be automatically checked more thoroughly than others, so if someone places in that league and is using a cheat/hack, they'll get caught quickly, and they won't be eligible to win anything.
    The ins and outs of how our anti-cheat system works exactly is not something we're going to post about, I'm afraid. It is not something hackers should know anything about.
    Square Enix Europe Community Manager
    Nosgoth Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by Saikocat
    I'm not sure how it's a red herring when we are open and clear about the schedule
    Season 1 is the full launch of Leagues, but as we already announced we'd be doing prizes, we didn't want to take that away from everyone so we're going ahead with those. There are more improvements to come to Leagues, and they'll hit for our Season 1 launch.
    Well - You announce Season 1 with all the features, THEN you say it will be pushed back, but all that has been pushed back is the "Season 1" Title, not the features. I get that you were disclosing that, too, but still...
    If you can't see how thats at least a little bit bait and switch, idk what is.

    @Everyone: I think it was clear a month ago that this is happening, so lets try and make the best of it, as stupid as it is-.

  5. #55
    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    Well - You announce Season 1 with all the features, THEN you say it will be pushed back, but all that has been pushed back is the "Season 1" Title, not the features. I get that you were disclosing that, too, but still...
    If you can't see how thats at least a little bit bait and switch, idk what is.
    Bait and switch refers to a sale tactic where the payee is tricked into purchasing something on the cheap under false pretenses and is given something entirely different. If you have any additional questions regarding what we have outlined for Season 1, please feel free to ask. We will gladly clarify these points for you.
    Psyonix Community Manager
    Nosgoth Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by Psyonix_Ryan
    Bait and switch refers to a sale tactic where the payee is tricked into purchasing something on the cheap under false pretenses and is given something entirely different. If you have any additional questions regarding what we have outlined for Season 1, please feel free to ask. We will gladly clarify these points for you.
    As I said before; could you explain exactly how the points will be distributed?
    Whats this bonus pool and when is it dried out?

    At the moment the biggest problem is that people that simply play every night can dominate the ladder. Last Beta I managed to get to 30th in Eternal by playing a lot more than everyone else, but there was no way I could go beyond 15th, since the point gap started increasing so significantly. I missed about 5 days of playing leagues, yet was unable to climb that high, even with a decent win rate compared to the players aorund me in Eternal.

    In other words:
    If I have a vacation planned for 5 days, why should I even bother? Theres no way you can compete with people that can just play every day and night endlessly barring pausing for sleep and sustanance. This is what we are concerned with: Rewarding grinding over actual skill.

  7. #57
    NGvisator is in 1st place eternal solely because he doesn't have a job. His win loss ratio is awful but it doesn't matter as long as he spends 8-9 hours a day on leagues. Point system makes zero sense.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by uNborn-
    NGvisator is in 1st place eternal solely because he doesn't have a job. His win loss ratio is awful but it doesn't matter as long as he spends 8-9 hours a day on leagues. Point system makes zero sense.
    I didnt even bother this Beta, coz I was away the entire weekend and I don't want to get a 3rd duplicate banner that I cant delete

  9. #59
    Something else to look at: 6 highpingers for 2 normals.


    (click image to enlarge)

    Dropping EU players on a US server only to have 2 natives there?

    6 Highpingers in a match is just not fun. Lots of funky hit detection and warping for everybody!
    Remove the Lobbies! Move the banners to the death screens!
    | CPU 2600k@4,3GHz | GTX560Ti 1GB | 8GB DDR3 | SSD | Win7 64bit | 1920x1080 | EU/Austria |

  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    Why so complicated? Just remove lobbies in ranked already! That way people can't dodge lobbies they dislike, and everything is dandy.
    ..well not everything... actually hardly anything... nevermind.
    Still though, lobbies are not needed in ranked.
    Until and those like him get banned (no idea why it hasn't happened yet), queue-dodging is legitimate. I was almost stuck in a game with him last night!
    Last edited by Bazielim; 15th Sep 2015 at 20:33. Reason: Naming and shaming

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by GenocidePete
    Until and those like him get banned (no idea why it hasn't happened yet), queue-dodging is legitimate. I was almost stuck in a game with him last night!
    Dont know him, are u in NA?
    Besides that I dont play pubs atm
    Last edited by Bazielim; 15th Sep 2015 at 20:33.

  12. #62
    Originally Posted by Hellboy_007
    Mix groups and solo players in the league is a crazy idea.
    It is necessary to divide the league finally. Who likes solo, let him play solo. Who likes to play with your friends, let them play with friends. Combining them does not work. Even 2-3 players in the party have a great advantage over the solo players.

    Solo players can resist the group only if each has a much better gaming skill.
    I don't think its that big of a deal, unless they are try hards that spend hours practicing strats togheter.

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    32
    Originally Posted by AdmiralPPR
    You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
    The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
    The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
    If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

    And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

    This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

    The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)
    This is essentially correct.

    The leagues are pushing you towards a number that is correlated with your hidden MMR. The people at the top of Eternal all have the max MMR (I just checked). Now if we have to adjust the way the points are earned in the future we can, but for now it is working.

    The "activity bonus" or bonus pool doesn't actually account for very much. In the currently running series there are only a total of 70 bonus points available so far. The top eternal scores are in the range of ~1400; even the amount you can get for a mediocre placement is around 150.

    One other aspect not taken into account with purely looking at win loss is that you need to win at the right time to get promoted -> you must have the points bar filled, meaning you're over the threshold for the next tier up. Winning other games gets you points but a few losses while sitting at the top of a tier leaves you in the tier, whereas a single win at the top will push you up.

    If the matchmaking is working correctly (and if we close the ability to dodge lobbies so the matchmaking can do it's work), the win ratio *should* be around 50%. Because that's what the matchmaking is trying to achieve. That means that the games are even.
    Square Enix Montréal - Game Designer
    Nosgoth Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  14. #64
    Originally Posted by Audhumbla
    If the matchmaking is working correctly (and if we close the ability to dodge lobbies so the matchmaking can do it's work), the win ratio *should* be around 50%. Because that's what the matchmaking is trying to achieve
    Emmm... Call me the moron, but I thought that the purpose of matchmakng system is to match me with players with similar skill in matches, where only good teamwork decides who wins. You know, not about to place me into obviously stronger team in 50% of cases and obviously weaker in another.

  15. #65
    Originally Posted by Dron1508
    Emmm... Call me the moron, but I thought that the purpose of matchmakng system is to match me with players with similar skill in matches, where only good teamwork decides who wins. You know, not about to place me into obviously stronger team in 50% of cases and obviously weaker in another.
    You think extremes here (100 vs 0%).
    Even if you get matched with similar skill (due to a big pool of players which Nosgoth cant provide), the system will have a mathematical opinion of who will win and who will lose (53 vs 47%). Its still up to you to proove if its right or wrong, so it can adjust the next time.


    The issue at hand is the waiting time... and like I wrote in my sign
    ature: get rid of the freaking lobbies. If banners are so important for the cash flow, bring them to the scoreboard and deathscreens!



    edit:
    What I dont understand is why TrueSkill was implemented and still ELO is what we talk about. ELO is outdated and not perfect. TrueSkill should overcome its shortcomings, but yea, it does not for Nosgoth yet. Maybe you can shed some light on this @Audhumbla
    Last edited by FireWorks_; 15th Sep 2015 at 22:33.
    Remove the Lobbies! Move the banners to the death screens!
    | CPU 2600k@4,3GHz | GTX560Ti 1GB | 8GB DDR3 | SSD | Win7 64bit | 1920x1080 | EU/Austria |

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    32
    Originally Posted by FireWorks_
    What I dont understand is why TrueSkill was implemented and still ELO is what we talk about. ELO is outdated and not perfect. TrueSkill should overcome its shortcomings, but yea, it does not for Nosgoth yet. Maybe you can shed some light on this @Audhumbla
    It's actually a system using some similar (but not the same) maths as TrueSkill.
    Square Enix Montréal - Game Designer
    Nosgoth Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

  17. #67
    Originally Posted by Saikocat
    Hi all,
    The special reward skin within Leagues is intended to be an exclusive reward, something you can win by hitting a high rank and can show off your skill level with. Once our Beta ended (where we awarded the Hunter skin) we looked at both the feedback and the stats on our side to see if that was working as intended, and the skin turned out to be easier to obtain than was designed.
    It seems it wasn't available for Eternal this lasst go-round either, so I'm guessinng it's just gonna be stuff you have to buy?

  18. #68
    The skin is going to be released for the Leagues later.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,424
    Originally Posted by Unagodd
    It seems it wasn't available for Eternal this lasst go-round either, so I'm guessinng it's just gonna be stuff you have to buy?
    If you mean the Leagues Beta 1.2 test that was a week, that was just to test 24/7 running of Leagues, so wouldn't have had the same rewards we do with a month long full league.
    Square Enix Europe Community Manager
    Nosgoth Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

Page 3 of 3 First First 123