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Thread: Deep Dive: Nosgoth Leagues Season 1

Deep Dive: Nosgoth Leagues Season 1

  1. #26
    search cure for cancer or hiv is trial and error, do a online game, f2p and have a competitive community is not a trial and error, is a things many company do since many time, you must only follow the footsteps, is not something totally new no one know about.

    other already have do the trial and error process and all wrong thing to avoid to do are already know.

    think the dev are going to do trial and error is an offense to their professionalism and their work experience.

    about eternal being check

    1- no, will not cut the hacking
    2- no, the dev will not have the manpower to do manual check to 100/150 or how many player will enter in the eternal...

  2. #27
    Not sure how I feel about this , unless we can get a oceanic based league without the price money and better times . These arenas usually start at 3 am and well into peak work times IF Im lucky I can get a few weekend matches in at 200 + ping ...

  3. #28
    Actually, development has a lot of things that require trial and error. That's why Beta periods are required. You can change one value to fix one problem, and because of the ways that things interact with each other in the software, it can sometimes effect things that are unexpected, so you have to go back and try again. It's not insulting the devs at all, I have a lot of respect for what they do! They can look at numbers and codes and see things that I could never understand, and they're able to puzzle out things far more complicated then I ever could. I can't even wrap my brain around it!

    And they just said that they're going to be checking the Eternal-tier players to make sure they aren't cheating. I trust them to do what they say they're doing.

  4. #29
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    And they just said that they're going to be checking the Eternal-tier players to make sure they aren't cheating. I trust them to do what they say they're doing.
    You dont ask yourself how they will check? is enough they says they will check? this solve the problem? lol

    anyway you contradict yourself, if the check will happen only to eternal player, the player need to cheat, and reach eternal to be caught, so will cheat in a good amount of match before be checked...

    and when happen the check? when the league finish and player must receive the prizes? this mean this will not discourage cheaters at all to cheat during all the ranked league and get caught only when the league finish.

    and so on...
    Last edited by riccetto80; 8th Sep 2015 at 22:15.

  5. #30
    If they get to the Eternal rankings by cheating and then stop cheating once they're there so they don't get caught, then they'll get kicked out of Eternal fairly quickly by the people who actually got their because they've got the skill needed to stay in Eternal.

    Look, there will always be cheaters and hackers. It's a never-ending battle between devs and dishonest people in every aspect of our modern, digital age. But they're doing things to help curb it and stop it. Let's not look a gift-horse in the mouth and scream about how they're not doing enough.

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    If they get to the Eternal rankings by cheating and then stop cheating once they're there so they don't get caught, then they'll get kicked out of Eternal fairly quickly by the people who actually got their because they've got the skill needed to stay in Eternal.
    Thanks to this activity-bonus you barely loose points even in long sessions if you loose alot of games in a row. Activity>skill, which means getting into eternal has nothing to do with skill but who is able to grind a lot. Obvious a good winrate helps, but not enough to make skill/winrate that important.

    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Look, there will always be cheaters and hackers. It's a never-ending battle between devs and dishonest people in every aspect of our modern, digital age. But they're doing things to help curb it and stop it. Let's not look a gift-horse in the mouth and scream about how they're not doing enough.
    FairFight doesn't even ban ragehacker with 100% accuracy after 1 game. And i doubt it can catch wallhacks (which is way more useful in nosgoth than an aimbot). Aim-assists will probably stay undetected too. It took Valve over 1 year for csgo to get decent amount of ban-waves going to stop the cheaterproblem, but they will never catch everyone. No offense but psyonix has not the ressources to deal with cheaters if it really gets a huge problem when they release ranked with pricemoney.

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by kLauE187
    Thanks to this activity-bonus you barely loose points even in long sessions if you loose alot of games in a row. Activity>skill, which means getting into eternal has nothing to do with skill but who is able to grind a lot. Obvious a good winrate helps, but not enough to make skill/winrate that important.


    FairFight doesn't even ban ragehacker with 100% accuracy after 1 game. And i doubt it can catch wallhacks (which is way more useful in nosgoth than an aimbot). Aim-assists will probably stay undetected too. It took Valve over 1 year for csgo to get decent amount of ban-waves going to stop the cheaterproblem, but they will never catch everyone. No offense but psyonix has not the ressources to deal with cheaters if it really gets a huge problem when they release ranked with pricemoney.
    The activity bonus can be depleted after a certain number of matches a day, and it's effected by how well you did in the match. Maybe I'm just bitter, but I honestly don't think anyone who uses cheats and hacks enough to get into Eternal ranking will be able to play for when they turn those hacks off and have to play against people who actually know wtf they're doing.

    Every time I've seen a hacker get called out in a match and subsequently turn those hacks off, their performance has absolutely tanked. Or someone who's got an aimbot or a wallhack and is murdering it as a human will be absolutely deplorable as a vampire when they can't get in close enough to use the aimbotter because they don't have the skills and knowledge to actually play properly and not just run in and get completely slaughtered.

    Either way, even if there are hackers that get through, the devs are trying. They've explained before that the prize money and things of that nature aren't even decided by them, they're decided by Square, so it's not like they're just throwing money out to draw people in without caring about the quality of the game they're trying to develop. I just honestly don't know why people have to be so hostile toward them. They're doing their best.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 9th Sep 2015 at 20:04. Reason: tou # 3

  8. #33
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    The activity bonus can be depleted after a certain number of matches a day, and it's effected by how well you did in the match.
    That's not true at all. Win or loose decides how many points you get, nothing else. Which is fine, because it's TEAM-deathmatch. Doesn't change the fact that getting into eternal doesn't mean much, it just says this guy played a lot of games. Or how it comes people with 30% winrate got into eternal last beta? It's a grindfest and most people can just avoid most good players with dodging lobbies without punishment.

    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Every time I've seen a hacker get called out in a match and subsequently turn those hacks off, their performance has absolutely tanked. Or someone who's got an aimbot or a wallhack and is murdering it as a human will be absolutely deplorable as a vampire when they can't get in close enough to use the aimbotter because they don't have the skills and knowledge to actually play properly and not just run in and get completely slaughtered.
    I guess 99% of the people you accuse of "hacking" have just decent aim from other fps. I barely see any except the typical ragehacker, maybe you just lack game knowledge. Also they're cheater not hacker, i doubt they make their cheats himself. Hacker are the people who start to make private paid hacks when it could be worth, so like when they start ranked with 10k$ pricemoney. And sadly i don't think they will get detected.

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by kLauE187
    That's not true at all. Win or loose decides how many points you get, nothing else. Which is fine, because it's TEAM-deathmatch. Doesn't change the fact that getting into eternal doesn't mean much, it just says this guy played a lot of games. Or how it comes people with 30% winrate got into eternal last beta? It's a grindfest and most people can just avoid most good players with dodging lobbies without punishment.


    I guess 99% of the people you accuse of "hacking" have just decent aim from other fps. I barely see any except the typical ragehacker, maybe you just lack game knowledge. Also they're cheater not hacker, i doubt they make their cheats himself. Hacker are the people who start to make private paid hacks when it could be worth, so like when they start ranked with 10k$ pricemoney. And sadly i don't think they will get detected.
    The devs explained it themselves in another thread, the bonus pool is depleted the more you play, so that after a while, you'll be losing up to 14 points for a lost match unless you're doing really well. your own score plays into this, though, so if you do well even if your team loses, then you'll lose less points then if you'd done poorly.

    And really, we're talking semantics here, cheater, hacker, whatever they are, they are people who were very obviously using hacks and when they were called out on it, they stopped and their performance went down. I've seen good players and I've seen hackers. I've got 700 hours and I'm level 50, so please don't insult my intelligence, I know how the game works. I don't call "hax" unless it's absolutely blatant because I know how good some people can be, and I've seen how laughable it is when people accuse regular players of hacking. I've had it happen to me.

  10. #35
    I can't believe you still think its a good idea to throw 10k at a bunch of grinding pubbies. Takes forever to rank up. Even if you destroy "high level eternals" (if they don't dodge you) you continue to snail your way up the ladder. 2 out of my only 3 losses came from people leaving at launch and then the wonderful 3v4 occurs.

    Been around the competitive fps gaming scene a long time. Please take a second and look at the entire idea. Skins, runestones, etc fine. But don't waste your money on this.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 3rd Oct 2015 at 22:06. Reason: Inappropriate Content

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by uNborn-
    I can't believe you still think its a good idea to throw 10k at a bunch of grinding pubbies. Takes forever to rank up. Even if you destroy "high level eternals" (if they don't dodge you) you continue to snail your way up the ladder. 2 out of my only 3 losses came from people leaving at launch and then the wonderful 3v4 occurs.

    Been around the competitive fps gaming scene a long time. Please take a second and look at the entire idea. Skins, runestones, etc fine. But don't waste your money on this.
    I think it's a great initiative.

    But 3vs4 does suck. Maybe a "freez" period is needed befor the 2nd round starts untill the teams are 4vs4 again. Or a BOT get's added to the game that has the level of the average of the other players in the team where it is needed.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 3rd Oct 2015 at 22:06.

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by ProDoctoR1987
    I think it's a great initiative.

    But 3vs4 does suck. Maybe a "freez" period is needed befor the 2nd round starts untill the teams are 4vs4 again. Or a BOT get's added to the game that has the level of the average of the other players in the team where it is needed.

    LoL


    A great iniative would be to put the money into a team based league where actual skill gets rewarded.

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Actually, development has a lot of things that require trial and error.
    yes but not the basic one

  14. #39
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    The league point system is still ridiculous. You should LOSE points for losing. It makes sense that you should accumulate points for consecutive wins, such that a player that is 21-28 (w/l) is higher than someone who is 1-0 (w/l). However, this does not imply you should just continue to gain points. Here is a screenshot to illustrate my point. I clearly have more wins and a better ratio, yet because the other player lost more games, I am tied with them... Seriously consider improving the point system.

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by Jarvz1
    The league point system is still ridiculous. You should LOSE points for losing. It makes sense that you should accumulate points for consecutive wins, such that a player that is 21-28 (w/l) is higher than someone who is 1-0 (w/l). However, this does not imply you should just continue to gain points. Here is a screenshot to illustrate my point. I clearly have more wins and a better ratio, yet because the other player lost more games, I am tied with them... Seriously consider improving the point system.
    But it's no grindfest, confirmed on dev-stream!

  16. #41
    Originally Posted by Jarvz1
    Here is a screenshot to illustrate my point. I clearly have more wins and a better ratio, yet because the other player lost more games, I am tied with them... Seriously consider improving the point system.
    You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
    The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
    The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
    If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

    And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

    This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

    The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)

  17. #42
    Originally Posted by AdmiralPPR
    You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
    The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
    I'd be very interested to understand what this mystical "somehow" is, and how they manage to calculate it.

    Originally Posted by AdmiralPPR
    So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
    If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.
    Doesn't that just mean that the entire system is broken, if it puts teams of significantly unequal skill against each other.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by Harmaatukka
    I'd be very interested to understand what this mystical "somehow" is, and how they manage to calculate it.
    I suspect something ELO-related

    Originally Posted by Harmaatukka
    Doesn't that just mean that the entire system is broken, if it puts teams of significantly unequal skill against each other.
    It just means, that the player base is still too low :/

  19. #44
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    Originally Posted by AdmiralPPR
    You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
    The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
    The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
    If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

    And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

    This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

    The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)
    This doesn't even make sense. Even if I had 23 wins versus less qualified players and he had 22 wins against more qualified players, he still didn't lose points for extra losses. YOU SHOULD LOSE POINTS FOR LOSING.

  20. #45

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by AdmiralPPR
    You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
    The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
    The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
    If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

    And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

    This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

    The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)
    Thats indeed how elo works . Except you forgot to add that players gains small amount points when winning against lower ranked players, with Elo system . And it doesnt seem to be the case on nosgoth's leagues .
    Following your example, based on Elo system, if team A loses, they loses a small amount of points, because it was obvious they would lose . On the other hand, team B gains a small amount of points, because they were expected to win .
    Using nosgoth's league : Team B still wins 14 points . = Grindfest time baby

    Also, they never said anything about league based on ELO rating . Which would make more sense than the one they are actually using and is totally flawed .
    Elo works because it makes the higher players actually lose points when losing, and not gaining as much as lower ranked players when winning, which isnt the case atm, thus making this league a grindfest .

    Edit : if their system is using some kind of Elo rating, the daily points bonus defeats the whole purpose of Elo system and needs to go away .
    Last edited by Ryugan34; 12th Sep 2015 at 01:36.

  22. #47
    They just try to force people to play ranked daily with this activity-bonus. But then you get bugs like this 3 windows popping up every time when you start nosgoth + a crash after every game. How can get this bugs live without getting tested? Don't understand this... also since first ranked got tested absolutely nothing has changed, still this annoying lobby-dodging etc. This will be fun when team-ranked gets tested, never get into a game. YEAHHHH
    Last edited by kLauE187; 12th Sep 2015 at 10:58.

  23. #48
    Originally Posted by kLauE187
    They just try to force people to play ranked daily with this activity-bonus. But then you get bugs like this 3 windows popping up every time when you start nosgoth + a crash after every game. How can get this bugs live without getting tested? Don't understand this... also since first ranked got tested absolutely nothing has changed, still this annoying lobby-dodging etc. This will be fun when team-ranked gets tested, never get into a game. YEAHHHH
    So true, they should fix that first. And now whenever you go to league tab gamecrash, which means a crash after every ranked match. This is anoying and it will drive people off the game if it continues.
    Fix the problems first then move into the fancy stuff.

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by Jarvz1
    23/25.
    You simply lucky

    I can't win 2 vs 3 and 2 vs 4 or 3 vs 5.

  25. #50
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    If any devs are following this forum I have some opinions about beta 1.3. Since this will be a "party-centric" league testing phase I think there are a few needed elements:

    1. When grouped as 4, and facing another group of 4, a "queue-dodge" should count as a forfeit, giving a win and loss appropriately to all members.
    Rationale: Queue dodging is already a large part of leagues. Lobbies take forever to start because of this and some glitches related to last second queue dodging have been abused.

    2. When losing a match, you should lose a more significant amount of points.
    Rationale: This has nothing to do with the party-centric aspect, just in general I think leagues is too "grindy" since you can lose games and gain points.

    3. There needs to be a shot clock. For example, set a timer such that vampires have 3 minutes to either give or receive damage. The clock resets on either of these events. (obviously ignore self damage....)
    Rationale: This will reduce roof camping and boring drawn out games. 3 minutes is already the timer in ESL, why not make it part of leagues.

    4. A forfeit vote, requiring all current team members to forfeit in the same voting session. (If all teammates are present, it would take 4 votes to forfeit. If all your teammates already left the match, your 1 vote should forfeit the match. Votes can be cast every 2 minutes and last 30 seconds. No response is considered a vote against forfeiting. Votes cannot be cast until 5 minutes into the first round. Buttons F1 and F4 could be used, for instance. Dialog screen should be small an non-intrusive {maybe an audio queue, maybe part of the chat box -> LoL})
    Rationale: Players need a way to surrender, rather than just leave the lobby and accept an increasing penalty. This may reduce queue dodging and shorten "one-sided" games.
    Last edited by Jarvz1; 14th Sep 2015 at 06:32.

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