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Thread: The Nathan is dead theory. For and against.

  1. #1
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    Post The Nathan is dead theory. For and against.

    Update: I made a video of video of basically the theory as described in this thread.


    Also check out my other video.
    "Things That Could Happen In Episode 5 Polarized - David Madsen The Hero?"






    Click the image to enlarge.

    Ok, I will admit.. when I first read this suggestion, I discarded it out of hand. Why? Because Rachel was dead, evidenced by the fact that the doe was resting at the burial spot in Episode 2 when Nathan was still around. I still believe this to be true. Rachel is dead, period. But this doesn't mean Nathan can't be dead too. This made me go back and question my own lack of reasoning and judgement.



    Mr Jefferson is controlling Nathan in order to gain access to his families vast wealth. Nathan is known to be on some pretty heavy medication. If you combine this with additional sedation and careful manipulation and it's not out of the realm of possibility.
    In the girls bathrooms (Episode 1) Nathan is quoted as saying:
    "Don't EVER tell me what to do. I'm so SICK of people trying to control me!"

    After discovering the dark room, Max and Chloe left the area without putting anything back in the cabinets they ransacked. Most notably the folder titled "Victoria":



    Nathan and Victoria are known to be very good friends. After returning to the darkroom and discovering this, Nathan would be left under no illusion as to who Mr Jefferson's next target was.

    Also left out in the open was this picture of Rachel laying dead in the junkyard with Nathens own presumably dosed body:



    The game suggests through the narrative of Max & Chloe that Nathan was posing for the photograph. But what if he wasn't and he was drugged too? I think Nathen knew nothing about it or of Rachel's fate, but does after returning to the dark room and seeing the evidence Max & Chloe left behind them. He now knows his friend Victoria is in danger.

    I believe Nathan was already showing signs of resisting and questioning Mr Jefferson, as evidenced by the phonecall Mr Jefferson took before class in Episode 2. We know now that Nathan made the call because of the post-it note left for him in the dark room:



    Although you could only hear one side of the phonecall, it was clear from the general tone that Nathan was spooked and asking a lot of questions (further evidence of how little he too knew of what was going on). This was possibly the first sign of his resistance to Mr Jeffersons lies and manipulations.

    Update: As pointed out by user: meimeiriver. This is not possible as Nathan was in the next room talking to Victoria. Which begs the question who Mr Jefferson was on the phone talking about Rachel and Kate to? Sean Prescott?
    Now equipped with the knowledge and facts of Rachels death and Victoria's impending fate, any remaining control Jefferson still had over Nathan was now gone.

    His next actions are imprecise but I speculate he confronted Mr Jefferson either before or after going to the junkyard to find out about Rachel for himself. The evidence for this is in the graffiti in the club house of the junkyard:



    Reminiscent of the message he left in Max's dorm room if you reported him to the principle for carrying a firearm.
    At first thought you might think this is a threat but on closer inspection, is it not a warning of things to come? (credit to Xeva-q for this thought).
    He is heard saying the same thing earlier in the same episode:
    "The storm is coming. Y'all gonna die!"

    By this stage, Nathan went from a liability to a threat to Mr Jefferson... and we know what happens to people who are a threat to Mr Jefferson:



    And the last face Nathan would have saw before lights out?



    Therein lies the theory (or at least my own variation of it. I certainly wasn't the first.).



    What Max & Chloe first unearth at the burial site is black in colour indicating either a black bin bag or leather jacket.
    Returning later that evening, what they unearth is now blue with a white stripe through the middle. What changed?

    It matches Nathans alternate clothing as the picture illustrates:



    We never saw Nathan again after the altercation in the boys dormitories. In fact, Nathan never showed at his own party. You would think for someone who is altogether not a very happy person and without much joy in their life, this, the one thing he has control over, would be pretty high up on his list of places to be.

    The text sent to lure Chloe/Max away from the college and to the junkyard was sent from Nathans phone but Mr Jefferson alone is there to greet them. The language and sentence structure of the text doesn't match any of Nathans usually short and aggressive texts sent prior:



    This would indicate Mr Jefferson took Nathans phone and was the one to write the message. Why would Mr Jefferson have to send the text if Nathan is complicit and working with him?



    If Nathan is indeed dead, how can there be a consequence in our earlier decision to stop (or not stop) Warren from going beyond self defence and assaulting Nathan in the boys dormitories?

    Wouldn't more of the earth need to have been disturbed in order to bury another human size human body on top of Rachels? who has presumably been there for a while for the grass to have grown in the first place.

    This isn't really an "against" but there is an ambiguity in the game whereby if Nathan is suspended, his Jacket will be in the darkroom and if he's not suspended, his jacket won't be in the darkroom. Possibly a hint at alternate fates for Nathan.


    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by LordBattleBeard; 2nd Oct 2015 at 07:23.

    (click image to enlarge)

  2. #2
    It's very very strange that when Chloe and Max find the buried body it still stinks. If Rachel disappeared like 6 months ago the body wouldn't smell anymore, at least not that much. Maybe Rachel wasn't murdered 6 months ago, but I doubt that Mr. J would keep her alive so much time and then kill her when the game starts. So, I find difficult to think that the corpse is Rachel's body.
    I like your theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NayaBR View Post
    It's very very strange that when Chloe and Max find the buried body it still stinks. If Rachel disappeared like 6 months ago the body wouldn't smell anymore, at least not that much. Maybe Rachel wasn't murdered 6 months ago, but I doubt that Mr. J would keep her alive so much time and then kill her when the game starts. So, I find difficult to think that the corpse is Rachel's body.
    I like your theory.
    There is A LOT of survivalist-type food in the dark room where Rachel would have been kept. I don't think this was by accident. This is where Jefferson would have kept her for a while before either:
    • Deciding she had served her purpose and/or knew too much about his operation
    • She tried to escape or Nathan tried to help her

    If the body was sealed in a black bag as the first shot suggests, I suspect it would take longer to decompose.

    Thank you

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    Nathan could be working for David. What was that thing he wrote? Something like "following those he follows"?

    So that could have made him a target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onmens View Post
    Nathan could be working for David. What was that thing he wrote? Something like "following those he follows"?

    So that could have made him a target.
    Indeed. This is still left unanswered and is a distinct possibility.
    David was on the case and suspect not far behind the truth. His judgement has often been proven right. It's just his execution that was shoddy.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBattleBeard View Post
    There is A LOT of survivalist-type food in the dark room where Rachel would have been kept. I don't think this was by accident. This is where Jefferson would have kept her for a while before either:
    • Deciding she had served her purpose and/or knew too much about his operation
    • She tried to escape or Nathan tried to help her

    If the body was sealed in a black bag as the first shot suggests, I suspect it would take longer to decompose.

    Thank you
    There's a lot of food because it's a bunker, the Prescott family knows about the storm coming, I don't think that Rachel has been kept there for a long time...

  7. #7
    Well, it is clearly not impossible but highly unlikely. After all we have to assume that it is strange Nathan's message. Argument about Nathan's jacket seem just to questionable for me.

    What's more Jefferson have no apparent reason to bury Nathan in exact same spot. For doing so he have to extract Rachel's body, enlarge the improvised grave and put them both there. Even if Nathan is indeed dead Jefferson have no apparent reason to go through so much trouble.

    Furthermore if Jefferson is indeed sponsored by Nathan's father, by killing Nathan he would dig his own grave.

    If Nathan is indeed dead, how can there be a consequence in our earlier decision to stop (or not stop) Warren from going beyond self defence and assaulting Nathan in the boys dormitories?
    But, ironically, this counterargument does not work either. In this very episode we could killed alternative Chloe or leave her be. And this would have consequences either, despite the fact that alternative reality was eliminated (apparently for good)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NayaBR View Post
    There's a lot of food because it's a bunker, the Prescott family knows about the storm coming, I don't think that Rachel has been kept there for a long time...
    That's true. No dispute, but it does give the possibility she could be kept there. And it also explains why the Doe was there at the burial site in Episode 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeva-q View Post
    What's more Jefferson have no apparent reason to bury Nathan in exact same spot.
    Do killers and psychopaths need a reason to do anything? its their lack of reason that leads them to commit despicable acts.

    For doing so he have to extract Rachel's body, enlarge the improvised grave and put them both there. Even if Nathan is indeed dead Jefferson have no apparent reason to go through so much trouble.
    The picture of Rachel and Nathan passed out in the graveyard would make Mr Jefferson burying them together as in the photo, a symbolic act. These "artists" live in a fantasy world.

    Furthermore if Jefferson is indeed sponsored by Nathan's father, by killing Nathan he would dig his own grave.
    I take your point on this one. But maybe Jefferson is working with Nathans father and has his authorisation? he never was much of a father.
    Last edited by LordBattleBeard; 4th Aug 2015 at 21:03.

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    That decision could be important for the fact who has Nathan's gun, but how Xeva-q said, it is very unlikely for Nathan to be dead.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by NayaBR View Post
    It's very very strange that when Chloe and Max find the buried body it still stinks.
    It actually not that strange because literally nothing about Rachel's body makes any sense. I established enough inconsistencies on that matter so, i think it is save to conclude that we just have some inattention in writing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeva-q View Post
    It actually not that strange because literally nothing about Rachel's body makes any sense. I established enough inconsistencies on that matter so, i think it is save to conclude that we just have some inattention in writing.
    There is a theory Rachel was killed during the Episode 1 or 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tataboj View Post
    There is a theory Rachel was killed during the Episode 1 or 2.
    I think this is the most realistic timespan.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBattleBeard View Post
    I think this is the most realistic timespan.
    If so, we have even more inconsistencies here, like some growing grass on her improvised grave.

    But, since everything about Rachel's body does not make any sense this assumption is actually not impossible.

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    @LordBattleBeard: I love your theory! And you bring up some very good points; especially about Nathan beginning to turn sides after seeing Victoria's empty binder. And Nathan definitely has a thing for Victoria (as seen in Ep. 4 trailer, for one).


    Also, why is Nathan's jacket still in the bunker?! You don't just walk out a vaulted bunker like that, 'forgetting' your jacket. He may indeed be dead.
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  15. #15
    Also, why is Nathan's jacket still in the bunker?!
    But it is optional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meimeiriver View Post
    @LordBattleBeard: I love your theory! And you bring up some very good points; especially about Nathan beginning to turn sides after seeing Victoria's empty binder. And Nathan definitely has a thing for Victoria (as seen in Ep. 4 trailer, for one).
    Well its not my theory (others came up with the prospect first). This is just my variation of it. The thoughts are all my own but others brought up the prospect of Nathan not being alive before I did, and frankly that's the only reason I gave it as much thought as I did. But I know what you mean. Thank you

    Also, why is Nathan's jacket still in the bunker?! You don't just walk out a vaulted bunker like that, 'forgetting' your jacket. He may indeed be dead.
    Good question and one I saw mentioned a few times, which led me to question why I didn't see it myself despite being meticulous about checking every area before moving on. I could be wrong, but from the multiple playthroughs I've watched, it looks like it's only there if Nathan got suspended. In my case, he wasn't suspended. A very minor detail but it could mean something more later on.
    Last edited by LordBattleBeard; 4th Aug 2015 at 22:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordBattleBeard View Post
    Well its not my theory (others have thought some of the same things too). This is just my variation of it and thoughts.. but I know what you mean. Thank you

    Good question and one I saw mentioned a few times, which led me to question why I didn't see it myself despite being meticulous about checking every area before moving on. I could be wrong, but from the multiple playthroughs I've watched, it looks like it's only there if Nathan got suspended. In my case, he wasn't suspended. A very minor detail but it could mean something more later on.
    Yes, I got him suspended. So, maybe the jacket is just an extra clue? I still think he wouldn't just forget his jacket like that.

    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by meimeiriver View Post
    Yes, I got him suspended. So, maybe the jacket is just an extra clue? I still think he wouldn't just forget his jacket like that.
    Indeed. Even if it turns out he's not dead, I still think he's being used/manipulated by those around him and a victim of circumstance more than choice. People forget he was just a convenient decoy to shine the light of suspicion away from Mr Jefferson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeva-q View Post
    That's interesting. Thanks for the link.

  20. #20
    If he was suspended it is actually make some sense for him to throw away his jacket at some point.
    Even if it turns out he's not dead, I still think he's being used/manipulated by those around him and a victim of circumstance more than choice.
    Or something much more crazy and darker.
    Last edited by Xeva-q; 4th Aug 2015 at 22:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordBattleBeard View Post
    Indeed. Even if it turns out he's not dead, I still think he's being used/manipulated by those around him and a victim of circumstance more than choice. People forget he was just a convenient decoy to shine the light of suspicion away from Mr Jefferson.
    Yes, it looks more and more that Nathan was just another type of victim (even when he's not dead).

    I still don't understand that hand-written (!) letter, though. I always thought that was sent by his dad (as texts from his dad are always on about how he wants him to follow in his footsteps); but it could, indeed, come from Mr. Jefferson too -- although the latter would be stupid for hand-writing a letter like that to Nathan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeva-q View Post
    If he was suspended it is actually make some sense for him to throw away his jacket at some point.
    Suspension and expulsion are two different things. It was a temporary suspension never likely to become a permanent expulsion.

    Or something much more crazy and darker.
    Anything to support that assertion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeva-q View Post
    If he was suspended it is actually make some sense for him to throw away his jacket at some point.
    Throw away, yes maybe. Leaving it inside a bunker full of photos and binders with tortured young women, as a big 'I was definitely involved!' sign, nah.
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  24. #24
    I like everything about this theory except for the Jefferson phone call in episode 2. Listening to Jefferson it is definitely a phone call with someone very distressed and a call he doesn't want to be having. Yet the moment you go inside the class room there's Nathan calm and talking to Victoria. The call has to be coming from someone else. A 3rd player in the murder mystery?

  25. #25
    Suspension and expulsion are two different things. It was a temporary suspension never likely to become a permanent expulsion.
    But he is infamous for uncontrollable rage.
    Throw away, yes maybe. Leaving it inside a bunker full of photos and binders with tortured young women, as a big 'I was definitely involved!' sign, nah.
    As you can see by link that i left there is enough of Nathan's personal things inside the bunker anyway. So, yeah, pretty much it.
    Anything to support that assertion?
    Well, i definitely have something but this theory of mine is still half-formed. I told you the very basics of it in pm. If i find it reasonable enough i will start a topic for it.

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