Thread: Nosgoth Official Gamescom Twitch Livestream

Nosgoth Official Gamescom Twitch Livestream

  1. #51
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    Originally Posted by Talespin
    Psyonix, this will cause nothing but problems for both you and players. This is a colossal up, I'm talking record-breaking.

    First of all, you are rewarding nothing. Two player max queues means players have to deal with 2 random players on your team. So completely disregarding the entire 4 player team aspect of the game that every team trying to play Nosgoth competitively has been practicing since day one, instead you're splitting those people up and making it luck of the draw. Who's to say those 2 random players on your team aren't friends of the opposite team and decide to throw on purpose so their friends can win? Or what happens if one or both of them crash or just leave? What happens if the enemy team as vampire just stand out of reach on top of a roof their entire round? And lets be honest, even if the stars align and you get a decent match it's not like we can use the crappy in-game voice. No one will be able to coordinate anything, it will just be a glorified pub. There will be nothing 'competitive' about it. I could go on and on.

    Also, your anti-cheat is not nearly good enough to regulate this. There will be cheaters, and you will not catch even most of them. Not to mention I doubt anyone here has faith in your matchmaking system, there will be countless broken lobbies and other matchmaking issues with an equal amount of forum posts complaining about it. No matter what, this will be a complete grind fest rewarding cheaters and people abusing the ranking system any way they can. Is this where you want your money going?


    What can you do instead?

    Well there's already an existing league system with rules and an anti-cheat, where teams actually have 4 players and are able to actually play competitively. It's called ESL. If you really need to, you can incorporate your in-game competitive matchmaking with ESL, but ESL needs to be the decider.

    For example, let the in-game competitive matchmaking be 4 players so people can actually play AS A TEAM. Then, for the ESL Monthly finals, take the 8 qualified teams from the ESL weekly tournaments, and then add in the top 8 teams from the in-game competitive matchmaking for that month to create a 16 team ESL Monthly final bracket. Hell, even give the in-game matchmaking qualifiers some extra runestones for qualifying, I don't care. This way no matter what the teams from the in-game matchmaking still have to play through an anti-cheat and follow the rules to avoid roof-camping and other problems.

    Or, you know, just ignore the in-game competitive matchmaking and leave it all up to ESL.
    ^All of this!

  2. #52
    For all the reasons listed above in every logical post in this thread, please re-evaluate how you want your money spent. Fostering a competitive community or rewarding hackers and the general pub players just for showing up and rolling a dice. This is a TEAM based game. I see none of that here in this new development.


    I actually don't know what else to say. This entire ordeal is laughable in even its best case scenario.


    sigh.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 00:04.

  3. #53
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    Originally Posted by uNborn-
    For all the reasons listed above in every logical post in this thread, please re-evaluate how you want your money spent. Fostering a competitive community or rewarding hackers and the general pub players just for showing up and rolling a dice. This is a TEAM based game. I see none of that here in this new development.


    I actually don't know what else to say. This entire ordeal is laughable in even its best case scenario.


    sigh.
    I couldn't care less who the best player/team is nor do I care about how much of your life you waste on ESL tournaments or this game. My interest is in how amazing this game and its game play is, this is nothing more than a business strategy they're trying to grow the game and grow their income based on the revenue. Most games use different marketing strategy for growth and I believe this is a fantastic way to get players who know nothing about nosgoth to gain interest into the game due to the cash pools available. All the people complaining had no competition when the game was firstly introduced now skilled gamers are making a scene and revealing your false progress in this gaming scene please.

    I always hate it when a community tries to control the outcome of a game, sometimes it work but majority of the time it doesn't because most of you playing these games can't see the big picture. They have a marketing team and probably understand how fast the game is growing just because of ESL therefore if they include different type of ventures for players to be entitled to, the community and popularity of the game will grow.

    If you don't like it simply stop playing because if players like you stay on a growing game like this, you will be the cause of the down fall with your greedy logic

    Reasons why you are arguing:

    Queuing -

    since when as game queuing on any game been fair lmao.


    Anti cheat-

    Well firstly for this section anyone who's actually played well known games like LoL csgo and so on would understand that before the season end or prizes are given out, all the accounts a check and every file report are taken into mind, therefore if someone is ELO boosting or hacking they will investigate, and try their best to ban those who are before prizes are given out. Interest system isn't it? well its not hard to do. So whats the problem let the cheaters hack their way to rank one or whatever. Then when the monthly rewards come get them all check and the unlegit players banned how hard is it to handle that. What else is there so cry about?
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 00:47. Reason: tou#5, tou#6

  4. #54
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    Greetings ladies and gentlemen, just a small visit from your friendly neighbourhood moderator reminding you to check out our terms of use.

    There have been a few violations in the last few posts so can we all keep it clean, cool and constructive please? thanks guys.
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  5. #55
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    We are not just arguing that this is a bad idea because the matchmaking is less then 'meh' and the money will attract both cheaters and professional hackers. That's just a side dish.

    What annoys me the most, is that many of us have been supporting this game since the beginning, play ESL every week for measily prices, and now, instead of working together with our teams to get better prices, we are expected to toss them aside and go solo.

    They claim since the start that they want to grow the "competitice community".
    But why should I even bother to play ESL anymore?
    Some ESL matches take forever to set up, sometimes you have to wait for your opponent. Some matches are played Best of 3, which means potentially 3+ maps!
    All that time could be better spent getting my rank up, since the reward for it will be much higher!
    Especially teams like mine that consistently make 4th place or just below it, are much better off not bothering with ESL anymore!
    THIS is the main problem!
    Thats not even talking about the logistical nightmares, regulation, fairness (crashes, DC's) etc.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 11:41.

  6. #56
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    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    We are not just arguing that this is a bad idea because the matchmaking is less then 'meh' and the money will attract both cheaters and professional hackers. That's just a side dish.

    What annoys me the most, is that many of us have been supporting this game since the beginning, play ESL every week for measily prices, and now, instead of working together with our teams to get better prices, we are expected to toss them aside and go solo.

    They claim since the start that they want to grow the "competitice community".
    But why should I even bother to play ESL anymore?
    Some ESL matches take forever to set up, sometimes you have to wait for your opponent. Some matches are played Best of 3, which means potentially 3+ maps!
    All that time could be better spent getting my rank up, since the reward for it will be much higher!
    Especially teams like mine that consistently make 4th place or just below it, are much better off not bothering with ESL anymore!
    THIS is the main problem!
    Thats not even talking about the logistical nightmares, regulation, fairness (crashes, DC's) etc.
    Here we go again about people rumbling about hacks and how it's unfair you devoted your time and support to the game. Nosgoth is a growing game, it can't just put all its eggs in one basket. Yes it's a team game but in fact multiple team based games give the top ranking players gifts/prizes and even awards for their achievements. Coming from league of legends I've seen that Nosgoth ranking system is strongly based of theirs if I'm not wrong. League rewards upcoming rookies top ranking players and so much more. There are different possibilities for people to earn something of a game like that which is what this company is trying to do. Why on earth will they give all the money to those of you who have nothing to do on your weekends more rewards than needed at this moment in time? As nosgoth is a growing game the ESLprizes will increase likewise for the soloQ.

    Before you start replying with ooo "its not fair", "oo theirs a plus to more hackers" please the out burst of hackers is just a sign that people are acknowledge a games popularity. Hacking isn't the problem its just how the game deals with it. My original post contains information of how other games solve the solution of people ELO boosting or cheating their way to get rewards they don't deserve. Nosgoth should do as they please because as far as I'm concerned everything this game as done till now has been amazing.

    The main problem is that the ESL players are complaining because the already TOP ranking teams or players would like to earn more than they already get in ESL tournaments. That's the major truth.

    Furthermore about Team queuing, What makes you think they won't implement the same system for Ranked teams when they eventually add it.

    Originally Posted by malgaa
    My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

    - In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

    - Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

    - Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

    - Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

    - Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

    - Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.
    Out of all the posts I've seen on this forum, this is the only one that makes sense. He's giving advise to help the game in the direction they are going towards. My only addition would be if the prizes are giving out after a year or so. To cancel out multiple accounts actually contact the winners directly before giving their prizes. Ensure you check every single player who are likely to win something no signs of ELO boosting (change in IP in a short time, better/worse performance based on different IPs). Getting everyone to sign an agreement to prevent people from farming ranked games on multiple.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 11:46.

  7. #57
    Every single post in this thread is advocating the exact opposite of greediness, we all want this taken away because it's going to split people apart and promote fighting each other individually while the game should be focused on working together because it's a TEAM GAME.

    You bring up league of legends. Imagine if the casters approach the winning team in their biggest tournament and go like "well done guys! You won the one million dollars! But player 1 in your team had the most kills overall so he will be getting 50% of the price himself, remaining team members will have to split the rest!".
    That is exactly what is happening here. I want to play with and achieve victory WITH my team members that I've been enjoying this game with for half a year, but since there is more than twice as much money on stake for getting the first place in solo ladder than what i could make in all tournaments combined with my team during the month, I have no choice but to go play alone and leave my friends in the dust.

    When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 11:48.

  8. #58
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    Only a few mentioned the money should be used on performance, I've seen majority of the ESL players give consistent statements about how the money should be used in increasing ESL. Since when did league of legends work in the foul system you just stated. Worlds, MSI, ESL and multiple tournaments are all completely different from the actual in game rewards.

    Plus recently when Fnatic got 4th in MSI, Huni was awarded a trophy of the best Rookie this split. It had no impact on the entire teams reward his reward was completely separate.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 11:50.

  9. #59
    On a serious note to the devs:

    I don't know how you plan to give out the winnings but since this whole thing is already cut in stone and there is really no way to turn back now. Will you help us distribute the prices evenly between players if we request so?

    Since you force us to fight each other instead of with one another, the only way to survive this change and still remain friends with my current team members is to make a pact to put as many hours into the solo ladder as everyone else in the team and then split the total winnings together evenly so everyone gets the same cut. Problem here is that since most teams have people from many different countries, sending money back and forth will incur currency change fees, tax problems etc, plus it would be a major general headache to organize it.

  10. #60
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    It's a shame no-one read my post. Thread temporarily closed pending review. Normal service will be resumed shortly.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 11:52.
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  11. #61
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    And we're back up. Can we keep it civil from now on guys?
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  12. #62
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    Originally Posted by OozOwnsU
    Only a few mentioned the money should be used on performance, I've seen majority of the ESL players give consistent statements about how the money should be used in increasing ESL.
    As I stated before, I am not opposed to minor cash prizes in Solo Ranked. Give 100 bucks to the first 5 ranks, sure. Give out free Runestones and Chests to the rest!

    The question was why Solo Ranked ws going to be more promoted than playing and synergizing in a team!
    Noone said ALL of the money should go into ESL. Its a lot of cash. I am surprised they even liquidiced a 1000 bucks, let alone 10k.
    Nonetheless, it leaves a bitter taste in our mouths if you go ahead and cut the already small prize pool in ESL and roughly a month later come out and do this.

    Originally Posted by HexMee
    When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.
    Testify!

  13. #63
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    Originally Posted by malgaa
    My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

    - In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

    - Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

    - Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

    - Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

    - Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

    - Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.
    Added:

    - System to check if the vampire team is permanently camping in roofs: (is this even possible?) like Talespin said, a team could win their human round and then not engage at all in their vampire round, just wait until the round ends.
    IF | malga.

  14. #64
    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    As I stated before, I am not opposed to minor cash prizes in Solo Ranked. Give 100 bucks to the first 5 ranks, sure. Give out free Runestones and Chests to the rest!

    The question was why Solo Ranked ws going to be more promoted than playing and synergizing in a team!
    Noone said ALL of the money should go into ESL. Its a lot of cash. I am surprised they even liquidiced a 1000 bucks, let alone 10k.
    Nonetheless, it leaves a bitter taste in our mouths if you go ahead and cut the already small prize pool in ESL and roughly a month later come out and do this.


    Testify!
    Don´t get me wrong here, I understand you guys and I am with you.
    But the only ppl I see crying in this threat are esl-players.
    Ofc they do..their money was reduced and now is going into the game.

    But you guys gotta understand, that if the money would stay in esl at this point...it wouldn´t go too far with you guys.
    Nobody cares about esl at this moment, as HexMeh already said himself.

    Just yesterday I opened twitch to see who is streaming and saw that there is a streamer with the title, "Nosgoth- now an esl-sport".
    This can bring a lot of ppl and with it money and attention into this game.
    And if so, you might be playing for even more money then before at the end.

  15. #65
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    I think we all said what we could say.

    The few people (and arguments) brought in favour of this prize structure came with a huge laundry list of "ifs" and "buts" that need to be addressed first. If anything, this announcement was timed terribly! Don't announce prizes for a mode that is still in Beta and broken like the rest of the game atm.

    I don't think theres any point debating here anymore until Psyonix or SE make a statement.

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by malgaa
    My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

    - In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

    - Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

    - Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

    - Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

    - Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

    - Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.

    - System to check if the vampire team is permanently camping in roofs: (is this even possible?) like Talespin said, a team could win their human round and then not engage at all in their vampire round, just wait until the round ends.
    I honestly think malgaa's suggestions need more attention.
    After the official blog update I think we should try to make the best out of it.
    Haste makes waste, if we start trying to redo something decided, most times it gets worst.
    And during the first League Season, we can propose adjustments for the 2nd.


    To clearify:
    1. Lets try to make the best out of the decided first season of League, with the suggestions from malgaa.
    2. During Season 1, we discuss how league should evolve.

    Example for 2.:
    In Season 2 the best 10 player receive money prizes, the 11th-50th place receives runestones, 50th-99th receives keys.
    ESl will get more promotion (in-game, on steam site, on blog).
    The money pool gets needed adjustments.
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  17. #67
    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    I think we all said what we could say.

    The few people (and arguments) brought in favour of this prize structure came with a huge laundry list of "ifs" and "buts" that need to be addressed first. If anything, this announcement was timed terribly! Don't announce prizes for a mode that is still in Beta and broken like the rest of the game atm.

    I don't think theres any point debating here anymore until Psyonix or SE make a statement.
    That is correct my friend.

  18. #68
    @Shikei

    The marketing goal is to attract and bind new players. I doubt you can lure anybody with ingame values that are worthless to the outside world. This door has been shut by denying the steam marketplace.

    The design decision is made to promote a public gamemode for everybody instead of "professional" gaming on the competitive side.
    They way it looks atm Public League will wipe out ESL competition due to the fact that it is more lucrative - by a very wide margin.

    I dont get why SE decided to push one so hard and as side effect ditch the other so hard. But maybe they will announce something that will make it worthwhile for the ESL, too. Cant be that pubstomping becomes glorified now.
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  19. #69
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    Originally Posted by FireWorks_

    The marketing goal is to attract and bind new players. I doubt you can lure anybody with ingame values that are worthless to the outside world. This door has been shut by denying the steam marketplace.
    While I can understand your like of argument, I reject it!
    You may be able to attract new players by offering real cash prizes, but if the game is in the same state (lags, crashes, DCs, matchmaking etc.) you will lose them right away, and probably forever.

  20. #70
    Totally agree. I never said something different

    But does it matter? Would anything change the game if theyd burn the money somewhere else?
    Remove the Lobbies! Move the banners to the death screens!
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  21. #71
    This seems like a last ditch attempt to reel in players and its just not going to work.
    besides the myriad of problems other people have listed, once the money dries people are just going to leave anyway.
    They should take a look at what valve did with CS.GO

    CS:GO was absolutely dead in the water from its release, August 2012, until the end of 2013. This graph from this article illustrates how dead CS:GO’s growth was once it was released(link at bottom). This is completely anecdotal, but I remember everyone laughing at CS:GO, talking about how much of a joke the game was and how it would never, ever be in the spotlight in the same way 1.6 was. Hell, people were even praising Source compared to the atrocity that was GO.

    So what happened? What gave CS:GO the “push” it needed to see the explosive growth it’s had over the past few years? It wasn’t community support, it wasn’t large community members, it wasn’t a vibrant tournament scene or silly prizes and it wasn’t positive posts on a subreddit.

    VALVE SUPPORTED THEIR GAME. Valve’s released 45 patches in 2014 alone! They’re constantly working with players to keep the game fresh via new maps and balance tweaking. The Steam market place and skinning system make the game feel alive and fresh. They added a new queuing system that allowed people to find matches easier. They reworked their ranking system. They reworked a TON of weapon balance in early 2013 based on player feedback. And on top of all of this, they found a way to finance their development teams – by using the Steam market to sell skins and keys.

    article http://web.archive.org/web/201412241...-rate-in-2014/

  22. #72
    Originally Posted by Halpachino
    This seems like a last ditch attempt to reel in players and its just not going to work.
    besides the myriad of problems other people have listed, once the money dries people are just going to leave anyway.
    They should take a look at what valve did with CS.GO

    CS:GO was absolutely dead in the water from its release, August 2012, until the end of 2013. This graph from this article illustrates how dead CS:GO’s growth was once it was released(link at bottom). This is completely anecdotal, but I remember everyone laughing at CS:GO, talking about how much of a joke the game was and how it would never, ever be in the spotlight in the same way 1.6 was. Hell, people were even praising Source compared to the atrocity that was GO.

    So what happened? What gave CS:GO the “push” it needed to see the explosive growth it’s had over the past few years? It wasn’t community support, it wasn’t large community members, it wasn’t a vibrant tournament scene or silly prizes and it wasn’t positive posts on a subreddit.

    VALVE SUPPORTED THEIR GAME. Valve’s released 45 patches in 2014 alone! They’re constantly working with players to keep the game fresh via new maps and balance tweaking. The Steam market place and skinning system make the game feel alive and fresh. They added a new queuing system that allowed people to find matches easier. They reworked their ranking system. They reworked a TON of weapon balance in early 2013 based on player feedback. And on top of all of this, they found a way to finance their development teams – by using the Steam market to sell skins and keys.

    article http://web.archive.org/web/201412241...-rate-in-2014/

    Good point there...a bit pessimistic, but maybe ou are right.
    But I must say, Counter Strike had a way bigger community before CS:GO released.
    By saying CS:GO was dead, I think if I remeber it right, most ppl were still playing Counter Strike.

    But yes..maybe you are right...we will see.

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by Halpachino
    This seems like a last ditch attempt to reel in players and its just not going to work.
    besides the myriad of problems other people have listed, once the money dries people are just going to leave anyway.
    They should take a look at what valve did with CS.GO

    CS:GO was absolutely dead in the water from its release, August 2012, until the end of 2013. This graph from this article illustrates how dead CS:GO’s growth was once it was released(link at bottom). This is completely anecdotal, but I remember everyone laughing at CS:GO, talking about how much of a joke the game was and how it would never, ever be in the spotlight in the same way 1.6 was. Hell, people were even praising Source compared to the atrocity that was GO.

    So what happened? What gave CS:GO the “push” it needed to see the explosive growth it’s had over the past few years? It wasn’t community support, it wasn’t large community members, it wasn’t a vibrant tournament scene or silly prizes and it wasn’t positive posts on a subreddit.

    VALVE SUPPORTED THEIR GAME. Valve’s released 45 patches in 2014 alone! They’re constantly working with players to keep the game fresh via new maps and balance tweaking. The Steam market place and skinning system make the game feel alive and fresh. They added a new queuing system that allowed people to find matches easier. They reworked their ranking system. They reworked a TON of weapon balance in early 2013 based on player feedback. And on top of all of this, they found a way to finance their development teams – by using the Steam market to sell skins and keys.

    article http://web.archive.org/web/201412241...-rate-in-2014/
    A nice read.

    Id like to point out that people go crazy over the market place... I earned more money there (with TF2 items) than Nosgoth tournaments could ever do. I cant say why people buy items for hundreds or even thousands of dollars, but they do and enjoy. But it doesnt have to be that high, millions of transactions every day with cent margins... Valve took 15% of it and everybody was actually happy. Valve, the buyers and me.
    Not having something similar still feels like a huge missed opportunity on any other game, especially F2Ps. Dont know what margin would be left there for SE but I am sure they wont get poor over it.
    Remove the Lobbies! Move the banners to the death screens!
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  24. #74
    When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.

    I can't believe i'm going to say this... but, I agree with someone from deadsun.. about something........ anything..... Oh my. This is a circus.

  25. #75
    Originally Posted by uNborn-
    When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.

    I can't believe i'm going to say this... but, I agree with someone from deadsun.. about something........ anything..... Oh my. This is a circus.
    Easy, man, you don't wanna your to burn all this thread
    Last edited by Bazielim; 6th Aug 2015 at 21:00. Reason: tou#3

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