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Thread: The Only Thing Wrong With Nosgoth(the game)'s Lore

  1. #1

    The Only Thing Wrong With Nosgoth(the game)'s Lore

    Hi all, recently discovered the LOK games. Played them all, love the story.

    To start, whilst 'Nosgoth' isn't my kind of game, I think it's clear that the creators are either huge LOK fans, or have taken a masterclass in LOK lore. EIther way, having read through all the blog posts and such regarding the setting of the game and how all the vampire and human classes came about, I really liked what I saw. I like what they've added and can happily say that I consider their contributions as a definitive extension of the series.

    But in all of that, there's just one itsy bitsy problem.

    Where the heck is Kain?

    Yes I know they added that in their lore, saying that he mysteriously vanished not long after throwing Raziel into the Abyss. I'm guessing that was more motivated behind-the-scenes rather than for plot reasons. Kain's the biggest player in the series and the developers wanted the focus to be on the story they wanted to tell. Heck, maybe Square(?) (we're on their forums, guess they own the series now?) told them to not do anything definitive with Kain, just in case they maybe actually give us a straight-up sequel one day!

    But purely for fun: imagine Kain's disappearance IS plot-based. WHERE is he?

    For some reason, I was originally under the impression Nosgoth was set way off in the future, so at first I thought that the 'disappearance' references Kain (and Raziel) leaving the future to go back to the past playing out the events of Soul Reaver 2, Defiance, etc. But nope. The lore clearly seems to say Kain vanished some time after Raziel's execution and his sudden lack of leadership caused trouble when his remaining lieutenants (nearly) wiped out the Razielim and divvied up the leftover territory. Considering said lieutenants were able to hold a meeting at all (judging by the doors etc. it seems that by SR1's time-period, only Dumah could feasibly leave his room, let alone go outside!) seems evidence enough that Kain vanishes fairly early on.

    But back the question.

    Where do I think Kain went? I've got a few ideas.

    1) (Most likely IMHO) He just skipped to the start of Soul Reaver 1. We now know that after learning all the prophecies / poking about in the Chronoplast, Kain learnt to basically wait for someone to turn up, looking all winged, like the old vampires and take that as a sign for... something? He saw that in Raziel, re-killed him and waited for him to return as a free-willed soul-reaving being. Obviously Kain's got access to time-travel so why wait around for another thousand+ years, when he can just skip to the important part, break the Soul Reaver on Raziel's noggin and really get things started?

    2) He went off into 'the state of change,' slumbered(?) for a few thousand years, woke up more powerful than ever, just in time for Raziel to come back to the world.

    3) (The really crazy one, sort of a tangent) What if Kain went BACK in time ahead of schedule? Seriously, where and when does he learn that you need two Soul Reavers to introduce a paradox? You could imply that he learned this from killing William. He sort of seems to suggest as much to Raziel in William's chapel, in SR2. But, really? Moebius never outright told him that's how time was changed. Heck, it was Kain's first time-travelling trip. For all he knew, time was really EASY to change, Reavers or no Reavers. Whilst I'm sure the Chronoplast is really cool and useful and all, it's main function seems to be to offer glimpses into the future (with some fudging of the details, everything Raziel saw there came true) as well as actual time-travel itself. Basically, I'm saying that I don't think Kain learnt it there either. So what if he'd tried to correct / alter the time-line and save Nosgoth, before the events of SR1 / 2? What if it's during THIS time, that Kain, by his own temporal experiments, discovers the importance of two Reaver's and the nature of free will?

    Anyway, that's my crazy rambling done. The floor is open for discussion. Nice to meet you all.

  2. #2
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    I think this might have been in one of the earlier interviews, but it's strongly implied at least that the answer is #1 - seeing Raziel's wings Kain knew what was coming. He's already studied the possible futures in the Chronoplast and then he uses it to skip forward. He makes a couple of stops along the way to check out how things progress (and talks to Rahab a little bit it seems) but essentially he heads to the next meeting with Raziel - kind of what he's doing for the rest of the series anyway.

    If I recall correctly they took the implications from SR1 itself to suggest this was what had happened - specifically the fact that Kain hasn't aged or devlolved any further, has a time machine which he's been studying and "makes himself known only when he sees fit". So yeah Chronoplast it is
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazielim View Post
    I think this might have been in one of the earlier interviews, but it's strongly implied at least that the answer is #1 - seeing Raziel's wings Kain knew what was coming. He's already studied the possible futures in the Chronoplast and then he uses it to skip forward. He makes a couple of stops along the way to check out how things progress (and talks to Rahab a little bit it seems) but essentially he heads to the next meeting with Raziel - kind of what he's doing for the rest of the series anyway.

    If I recall correctly they took the implications from SR1 itself to suggest this was what had happened - specifically the fact that Kain hasn't aged or devlolved any further, has a time machine which he's been studying and "makes himself known only when he sees fit". So yeah Chronoplast it is
    Ah, thank you for answering, it's just nice to fill in the blanks in my head.

    Nice catch with the bit about Kain not devolving and such in SR1. I never noticed / thought about that!

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    Of course, maybe Kain has reached his ultimate state, maybe there's nothing left to physically change, and as for aging, they really don't seem to age at all any more. Just look at Raziel at the beginning of Soul Reaver, when he's about 1,000 years old. He looks like he's in his mid-twenties or so, which is probably how old he was when he died as a human.
    I also think that Kain skipped ahead generations at a time, looking at how his empire was falling apart, manipulating things as he needed to prepare for Raziel's return, things like that. I have a feeling that he wouldn't travel back in time, being wary of Moebius and any traps he might have planned, even though Kain of course knows that his destiny is to be killed by Raziel at William's Memorial.
    I really think it's an open question about just how much Kain had evolved as far as his abilities go. For example, we don't really know when Zephon got his ability to climb walls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearGhoul View Post
    Of course, maybe Kain has reached his ultimate state, maybe there's nothing left to physically change, and as for aging, they really don't seem to age at all any more.
    In one of the interviews for Soul Reaver, Amy wrote that Kain was not yet at his peak and could continue to evolve. The pretext he used to execute Raziel (that he had been developmentally surpassed) seems to support this.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazielim View Post
    #1 - specifically the fact that Kain hasn't aged or devlolved any further, has a time machine which he's been studying and "makes himself known only when he sees fit". So yeah Chronoplast it is
    This is fun. Kain may still be on a countdown clock with only so much time left before he devolves so he needs to finish this battle with the eldergod before he loses his marbles. Then, once that's done, the pillars could safely be reborn and Kain could access healing through them to prevent the devolve. If Elder knows this, the squid's strategy would be to prolong the chase and drag things out, then trap Kain down some well with no escape, just put Kain in an eternity cell and he'd have the nightmare demise of helplessly waiting for himself to change for the worse. Game over. (Until some miraculous future rescue came from that main character of Dead Sun. They'd fight and then sort things out, etc.) It's better than the "He's just not vulnerable to devolution" thing.


    I also like the idea that Kain chose which of his sons' devolves he wanted for his own when he sacrificed Raziel. Kain may have foreseen that the time loop might end with him receiving Raz's evolutionary growth toward the ancient winged race. That would mean that from the beginning Kain signed himself up to become that blue winged scion image with the strange halo seen in the final mural image of the spirit forge.

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    Kain, at the end of Defiance, has been healed of all corruption. This is symbolic in the removal of his scar and that his purified sight can see the EG. He won't devolve at all due to that, if ever he would have before. The devolution only occured in Kain's vampires due to the corruption from Nupraptor's curse. He also did not, apparently, expect to gain anything from Raziel, or for these events to happen. Kain to Raziel, hand on shoulder, "No, Raziel... This can't be the way!"

    And that "miraculous future" is certainly not part of the LoK universe. Never was, and it thankfully was axed before it could ever be.

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    I overcome limitations like those for breakfast.

    And being bitter over canceled games is cool, but pretending you didn't want it anyway is sort of unbecoming. The thing we saw in progress would have been good fun. Saying it would have been beneath you to play it just sounds like the jilted fan talking. The fans of Walking Dead were all upset last week too because they got a Morgan flashback episode instead of the continuation of the Wolves' attack on Alexandria that was the main event everybody wanted to see. But they already knew from the coming attractions it was going to be a Morgan ep, so there was no need to get upset. Same thing here with Black Sun. It would have been another amazing peek behind Elder's green curtain to glimpse the eternal mystery from a new vantage point. No Kain perhaps, but then the promo materials would have told you that from the start, so it would have been easy to put aside our Kain-story expectations and enjoy this new romp to see what light it shed on Nosgoth's darkness. It's another alternate future severed from existence by dark market forces, and I do mourn its soft leathery e-corpse.

    As for the hurdles standing between Kain and devolution: I think they healed his scar mostly for your personal enjoyment since most people don't even notice that. [smilee of your choice] But it's true he's cured for now and not currently on track for a devolve, agreed. Because it's time for the Scion to take his shot at healing the world's wounds. Kain won't do it right, though, due to bull-headedness and could could get into further trouble. As a dead thing he's still not really onboard with the Pillars' true agenda of revitalizing the world. He'll want to hand the world over to his dead offspring, and that's not really a recipe for "balance," so he'll end up butting heads with the Pillars because the original architects will have foreseen their Scion behaving differently. The Scion's task also seems to lead to the banishment zone to deal with the hylden threat in some more final way. And they have a LOT of corruption waiting for Kain in hell, as that's where the hylden got the active ingredient for the original curse they slapped the Ancients with. (Follow the order of events: vampires open hell portal --> many hylden are exposed to the energies of hell --> and lookie what happens next: the remaining hylden have some new-fangled magic in their hands to hurl back at vampires in vengeance: Hell's Corruption brought onto this side of the barrier, sent over by their banished brethren, or gotten from portal backwash, etc. Then Hylden Lord's touch smote Ariel, and infected the circle with bad luck hylden style, hell style. Then hell's touch seeped into Kain & Kids through his pillar connection. The theme in LOK is corruption and contamination and cover up, and the Banishment dimension is the ultimate source. So when the Scion goes to hell, he'll go armed with shiny eyes and Ariel's spiritual armor as if sure to win, but he'll face an equivalent force of corruption that's been raised to its most potent level as well. It's an excellent chance to get him reinfected.) What tips the scales in that standoff? Say he gets his Scion mandate wrong, gets too greedy and thinks it's his job to wipe all the hylden out until they're extinct and then give the planet to his newborn Kain Clan necrovamp spawn. Maybe the Balance Pillar (which his soul is bound to like a siamese twin) objects strongly to both of these things. And it sends Kain a heart attack, so to speak, into his empty chest to show him and us that he's not on the right path. Presumably, supernatural forces are the only thing keeping Kain going now that his heart is gone so even the usual vampire explanation doesn't work. So if he runs afoul of the Pillar and doesn't deserve the Scion powers anymore they might be withdrawn and we'd see him seize up like he's having a stroke, and he could then lose to the hylden champion who's still at full strength. --> He'd get re-infected with corruption and sent into their pits to suffer, and in hell we'd see the full devolve hit him suddenly because that's where the curse is most powerful on its own turf. There you go.

    The nice touch here is that it'd be a twist on the "Woe to the conquered" motif, because Kain would at last join the conquered and would learn to feel the hylden's pain. Over a few centuries, that kind of thing can cause a shared bond to form. And Kain has those centuries in which to..... evolve.
    Last edited by diuqSehT; 7th Nov 2015 at 23:44.

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    Kain's corruption was from Nupraptor infecting the Circle and others with sensitive minds, not the Demon Dimension. How Kain would act after Defiance is an open question, since he's been corrupted his entire life. Kain had a brutal, tyrannical empire that worshipped him as a god, so we should not pretend he's some righteous hero, but after being purified, he might have changed. Of course, Kain being such a horrible bastard just makes him all the more interesting than a "good guy". It's important not to think that he's some champion of justice, but it's also important to understand that he's not really any worse than people like Willaim the Just or Moebius.

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    Well, he's closer to being heroic now, because he's finally ready to take up his duties as Guardian of Balance. The tyrannical empire was when Kain was out of balance, which is symbolized by how he refused the sacrifice and turned his back on the Pillar, literally, using it as his throne instead of his duty/job/identity. To drown the world in a reign of blood is.... unbalanced. He's not all the way there to being a "hero" figure though, and never will be because he's Kain, which is why I'm saying he might still pervert the Scion of Balance mission somehow so it goes differently than how the Ancients would have wanted. Unless..... his heart's removal is step one towards getting rid of the blood curse, overcoming it and going back to something more like what the ancient vampires were, giving the world back to the living ancients and calling that the true victory over EG, which is something Balance would probably approve of (along with the Uncursing of the hylden).

    I think the ancient guardians also "failed" because they too had gotten out of balance in their forever war with the hylden. They didn't live up to their lofty ideals. The pillars were each named for something pristine and wonderful, but it was really all a lie. The real purpose of the pillars was to use all their powers to paint over a horrible secret, the Unspoken, with 9 sweet smelling spires like Glade Scented Candles. They were trying to keep the lid on the foul smelling thing they did so the world would forget. Even after the human takeover Ariel had blinders on and was trying real hard to forget history too, just because of..... tradition? Because she knew her powers came from an unclean source but didn't want to give them up. Hylden Lord's corruption of the pillars revealed the truth about them at last. They're a war crime, and they're foul. Always were. All HL did is rip the lovely illusion away, the facade. Yes Nupraptor's mind sent the virus racing through the pillar network to corrupt it, but where did his madness come from? From the hell-corrupted touch of the Unspoken taking their revenge on the Circle. That's what seeped into his mind and then into theirs. Look at Dark Eden. It's a manifestation of hell-corruption. It's the world remade in hell's image. Why did "Nupraptor's Madness" influence them to do this with their powers? Because Nup's Madness is hell-touched. If Kain just managed to get out from under that curse, he's closer to escaping the forever-war fate EG wove for the 2 ancient species. Any new Pillars he raises have a chance to be cleaner too, perhaps coming with a new and improved purpose.

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