Thread: Lost Odyssey shows how great a turn based battle system can be

Lost Odyssey shows how great a turn based battle system can be

  1. #1
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    Lost Odyssey shows how great a turn based battle system can be

    Lost Odyssey shows how great a turn based battle system can be. Its one of the best RPGs of the past two console generations and has one of the best combat engines as well. Lost Odyssey is pretty much what most FF fans want in a combat engine its the classic FF style and its way better than the past few FF crappy engines we have had to put up with.

    Its fine to tweak the battle engine but it needs to be like Lost Odyssey or even Final Fantasy X-2.

    The best part about party based RPGs is strategically micromanaging your whole party.

    If SE things they got booed badly at last years E3 after fans saw the FF VII was just a PC port, it will be even worse if they show FF13 or FF15 style gameplay when they give us more info on this game.

    there are plenty of great turn based style combat systems out there and the FF games have a lot of them, dont screw this up

    If you want the party to be able to move around and not just be in a line then make it like FF 12 where they can freely move around but you can also make it turn based by freezing the action after every turn.

    FF 12 is as action based this game should get.

    This is all I want from a FF turn based battle system.
    And its not weird at all having them in a line and running forward then back.
    It flows perfectly.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1k9Z0QF9O0
    Last edited by dravenla; 19th Jun 2015 at 08:27.

  2. #2
    This. The truth has been spoken.
    Hear this guy, oh mighty Square

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    Originally Posted by dravenla
    If SE things they got booed badly at last years E3 after fans saw the FF VII was just a PC port, it will be even worse if they show FF13 or FF15 style gameplay when they give us more info on this game.
    If the Final Fantasy VII Remake is shown to play like Final Fantasy XV I will be cheering. Although I would like to be able to control the entire party.

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    Originally Posted by Rayziyun
    If the Final Fantasy VII Remake is shown to play like Final Fantasy XV I will be cheering. Although I would like to be able to control the entire party.
    You would be the only one. 90% of FF7 fans want it to be turned based not like the crap FF 13 or FF 15 action gameplay.

    Also I notice how you spam all the turn based threads , what do you work for SE or something?

    FF VII is not an action game where you spam controls. Its a strategic RPG where you micromanage your whole party.

    Lost Odyssey is the perfect example of how this can work.

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    Originally Posted by dravenla
    You would be the only one. 90% of FF7 fans want it to be turned based not like the crap FF 13 or FF 15 action gameplay.
    90%? I'm am honestly curious where you get these numbers. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying unless you can't point to something specific I'm going to assume you pulled it out of thin air.

    Did you just compare FF XIII to FF XV? If you didn't mean to, then fine, but if you did: How could you?
    1: The system present in Final Fantasy XV is COMPLETELY different from the one present in Final Fantasy XIII in nearly every way.
    2: Final Fantasy XV isn't even out yet, so the only comparison you can have is from the demo, and that 's not even done.
    3: Whether you like it or not Final Fantasy XIII actually is turn-based, so saying bad things about it without being specific about what you don't like gets a bit confusing. (To be fair, I'm guilty of this as well)

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    Also I notice how you spam all the turn based threads , what do you work for SE or something?
    What do you mean spamming? I'm giving my opinion, and responding to people who react to my opinion, is that spamming?
    No I don't work for SE, they turned down my application. "No available position at this time." Apparently.

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    FF VII is not an action game where you spam controls. Its a strategic RPG where you micromanage your whole party.

    Lost Odyssey is the perfect example of how this can work.
    Action games can be strategic, and spamming you controller in action games is never (to my knowledge) the optimal way to play them.
    A game can also be action-y while still being an RPG.
    EDIT: I've never played Lost Odyssey as it's a xbox 360 exclusive. Is it good enough that a let's play would be worth watching?

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    Originally Posted by Rayziyun
    90%? I'm am honestly curious where you get these numbers. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying unless you can't point to something specific I'm going to assume you pulled it out of thin air.

    Did you just compare FF XIII to FF XV? If you didn't mean to, then fine, but if you did: How could you?
    1: The system present in Final Fantasy XV is COMPLETELY different from the one present in Final Fantasy XIII in nearly every way.
    2: Final Fantasy XV isn't even out yet, so the only comparison you can have is from the demo, and that 's not even done.
    3: Whether you like it or not Final Fantasy XIII actually is turn-based, so saying bad things about it without being specific about what you don't like gets a bit confusing. (To be fair, I'm guilty of this as well)

    What do you mean spamming? I'm giving my opinion, and responding to people who react to my opinion, is that spamming?
    No I don't work for SE, they turned down my application. "No available position at this time." Apparently.


    Action games can be strategic, and spamming you controller in action games is never (to my knowledge) the optimal way to play them.
    A game can also be action-y while still being an RPG.
    EDIT: I've never played Lost Odyssey as it's a xbox 360 exclusive. Is it good enough that a let's play would be worth watching?
    Go read any forum or article about the FF 7 remake, pretty much everyone is saying keep it turned based. That is where I am getting it from. The vast majority wants it turn based, you are in the very small minority that wants it non turned based. Are you really going to try to disagree with that?

    FF15 is a progression from FF13, its going in the wrong direction. That is what i am talking about. FF 7 remake should not be like either FF 13 or FF 15 it should be like FF 7 or FF x/x-2.

    What i mean about spamming the turn based threads is you seem to reply to every single persons post that wants SE to keep the FF 7 style turn based system. Yeah we get it, you dont want turn based but you dont have to reply to every single post saying the same thing over and over again, we get it you dont want a turn based system.

    Yes a RPG can be action-y Witcher or Skyrim but that isn't what FF 7 is. The last thing FF 7 fans want is to only allow us to control just Cloud or one party member at a time and have the CPU control the rest or just let just give them basic commands.

    Keep FF 7 the way it is. you can tweet the system a little like making it like FF X-2 but dont make it a stupid action RPG that is not want the fans want.

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    Originally Posted by dravenla
    Go read any forum or article about the FF 7 remake, pretty much everyone is saying keep it turned based. That is where I am getting it from. The vast majority wants it turn based, you are in the very small minority that wants it non turned based. Are you really going to try to disagree with that?
    I'm going to agree to that on this forum that seems to be the populare opinion. But this is the only FFVII forum I'm on so I can't speak for any other forum. Among my friend, we'd all prefer action, but friends are usually like-minded people so that's not really a fair cluster to cite from.

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    FF15 is a progression from FF13, its going in the wrong direction. That is what i am talking about.
    I'm just going to go ahead and disagree completely here. The only way in which they're similar is that you only control one character literally everything else is different. The one is not a progression of the other, they are in fact in completely different categories.

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    What i mean about spamming the turn based threads is you seem to reply to every single persons post that wants SE to keep the FF 7 style turn based system. Yeah we get it, you dont want turn based but you dont have to reply to every single post saying the same thing over and over again, we get it you dont want a turn based system.
    Well, yeah. I'm seeking discussions about it. It's not like I'm reposting the same exact thing though. Also it's not as much that I don't want a turn based. I'd prefer action, but I'd be fine with turn base. I think however that a turn based identical to the one in Final Fantasy VII would be detrimental to the experience the Remake could potentially provide. The combat system in Final Fantasy VII is a product of it's time, I don't see why making improvements where improvements can be made is a bad thing. There are loads of improvements that can be made while still keeping it turn based.
    More elaborate Positioning Mechanics for instance. You said it's a strategic RPG, fine, positioning mechanics would not interfere with that identity.

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    Yes a RPG can be action-y Witcher or Skyrim but that isn't what FF 7 is. The last thing FF 7 fans want is to only allow us to control just Cloud or one party member at a time and have the CPU control the rest or just let just give them basic commands.
    Here we agree. I would hate it if you could only control Cloud. But an action system doesn't automatically mean that you can only control one character.

    OPEN QUESTION: What if you could have a hybrid system though? It's perfectly possible to make a system that allows for a Turn base/strategic play style and an action play style at the same time. So you can pick and choose how you prefer to play.

  8. #8
    I agree in some parts. I'd like the VII remake's battle system to be a mix of XIII's CSB and XII's ADB keeping individual control of party members, being able to move the characters freely but that you can't make an action whenever you want and can use shrouds or other items when not in combat. Gamers often believe AL controlled members can cause annoyance and I wish we could set up how they'll move and react before battle and keep them in a tent if necessary so that you can travel alone, that'd be some extra challenge. What about random encounters? not this time, we all want to see what's the target's position for an stealthy cool 100% secured preemptive strike for a high rare drop rate! I love to wait for the bar to fill up and take action that's what makes a game an RPG. I think XII's is an example of a perfect open world turn based free roaming rpg battle system. I like XV's battle mechanics so far and I've been feeling like playing a hack and slash style rpg more a la Kingdom Hearts and less like Crisis Core or Type 0. They will go a little bit more action based this time in the remake there's doubt and I truly hope they don't make it too fast paced. I think this is an important thread, thanks.
    Last edited by CyberAbel; 19th Jun 2015 at 23:03.

  9. #9
    It's almost distressing how many people don't realize that FF XIII's combat was just as turn-based as any other ATB game, and more strategic than VII and VIII at least (haven't played most other ATB games outside of XII).

    So if they're going to do turn-based, they ought to do it like XIII.

    Though if they give us full party control, they need to give us an actual PAUSE in the battle, not "your character bars pause while enemy keeps on attacking."
    Mooberry the Cow God demands repentance and belief!

  10. #10
    FF12 and 13s combat definatly wasent turn based as any other ATB game.
    You just "ordered" your companions what to do at start of fight and then watched them while whacking with your main character.
    The worst thing was that it was the most effeciant way to do it.
    There is no strategy to it at all.

    FF12 started an era were a focus on more strategy and planning ahead were changed to a focus on hack and slash, buttonmashing and less thinking.

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    Rayziyun
    Go on any article about FF 7 like IGN for example, a vast majority of the fans are asking to not change the battle system and keep it turn based.
    its like that with every article with a comment section.

    As for FF 15 you are right they are totally different but what i mean is FF 15 is a progression away from a party based combat style and its not even a FF game anymore. Its an action RPG. You could call FF 15 a differnet name and you wouldnt even know its a FF game.

    FF games are going in the wrong direction the best part about the games was always its combat system and controlling the whole party. Now the combat is just garbage for a FF game.

    If you want an action based game you have FF 15, the FF 7 fans want FF 7 combat system to remain intact. There is no need to update it because that is what FF 13 and 15 are for. Changing things only makes a remake suck, just like the remake of robocop sucked because they changed what peopled loved about the original.

    the combat system of FF 7 is not a protect of its time, I already disproved that with Lost Oddessy and how well it works . There are tons of games that are RPGs with action battle systems, its time for a class turn based game which most FF fans have been asking for for over 10 years now. Most FF fans hate the direction the games have gone.

    The positioning doesnt even matter in party based RPGs. All you need is front row, middle row and back row like LO did. You dont need to manaully move them around during the battle. That is only needed when you control one party member.


    CyberAbel
    Making it like FF 12 or LO where you see the encounters on the screen is fine, that is not a big deal and its not affecting the battle system. That is not a huge change and no one would care if that did that.


    EternalAmbiguity
    FF 13 was far from turned based LOL
    You basicaly would just spam commands. And I am pretty sure if you didnt do any commands your party would wiped. correct me if I am wrong on that one since I only played like 10-20 hours because that game was such trash, Teh worst part about it was not being able to fully control your party and just giving them generic and basic commands and hope they did what you wanted them to do and on who.

    They should not make it like FF 13 that is by far the worst FF engine of all time. If they are changing it it should be like FF x-2.
    Calling FF 12 turn based is like calling the dragon age games turn based which they are not.

    Just because you have a cool down on spells or actions does not make it a turn based game.

  12. #12
    Hello Selodaoc, there's actually an strategy to it, you just ordered the ally what to do first but that's where the original VII ATB takes place, no matter how much we whack with the character I have to wait for the bar to fill up. In VII you just wait for the bar to fill first then choose and execute the action, it's like the other way around right? There's no much difference there, so they are turn based moving the character manually or not. I'd be truly happy if they implement the ADB in the remake.

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    There is a huge difference between 7 and 13. In 13 if you want to heal a certain character you cant. You just select heal and the CPU puts what character will cast heal and on whom. That is nothing like 7.

    They are like night and day,

  14. #14
    FFVII and FFVIII had it right on the money in terms of a good battle system for an RPG. A great RPG game should require strategy and a sense of urgency. Not this FFXIII blind luck button mashing combat

  15. #15
    Hello dravenla, I'm glad you don't mind them putting XII system in the remake. I think it might well be the most accurate way to keep it at least a 70% turn based while adding some interactive action if they decide to make it open world. We have to understand and accept it won't be 100% like the old one. They will modernize a bit for the better and the worse.

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    FFXII would be an ok compromise since you can pause the game after every turn and play it like a turn based game or you can just let it go active all the way. I would hope they would do it so it auto pauses after every turn. FF 12 wasnt the best but i could live with it way more than the 13 or 15 style.

    My hope is still for the x2 version combat system though

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Selodaoc
    FF12 and 13s combat definatly wasent turn based as any other ATB game.
    You just "ordered" your companions what to do at start of fight and then watched them while whacking with your main character.
    The worst thing was that it was the most effeciant way to do it.
    There is no strategy to it at all.

    FF12 started an era were a focus on more strategy and planning ahead were changed to a focus on hack and slash, buttonmashing and less thinking.
    Do you know what turn-based means? it has nothing to do with controlling multiple party members. It refers to combat being "turns," A character acts and then waits until they can act again. Of course, the purest form of this is a true turn system like FF III (the real III, not VI) had. However, outside of this, the ATB system works by your character acting and then having to wait a certain amount of time before they can act again. This is the same in VII and XIII, and in XII for that matter, and in most ATB games (to my knowledge). Again, controlling multiple party members is a completely separate distinction.

    The fact that you think there was no strategy to it implies to me that you didn't play very much of the game. The reality is that the strategy was different than in most other FF games. In FF XIII it wasn't about blindly spamming "attack" or finding each semi-boss' weak status effect, it was a more overarching strategy. You had to move between offensive and defensive stances, between buffing your character and debuffing theirs, healing, and between doing physical damage (at a lower rate) or lesser, magical damage (that would bump up your overall attack percentage).

    Cid's an especially delicious fight.

    FF XIII has one of the deepest combat systems in the entire series (I think the Job system from III beats it in that sense, but the Job system was also littered with one-shot Jobs, needless obfuscation), and in my opinion has the best. VII's system doesn't hold a candle to it, frankly.

    Originally Posted by Ashtabley
    FFVII and FFVIII had it right on the money in terms of a good battle system for an RPG. A great RPG game should require strategy and a sense of urgency. Not this FFXIII blind luck button mashing combat
    Amusingly, I felt the absolute opposite. FF VII doesn't give you time to actually choose anything, because by the time you've navigated to your magic menu both of your other party members have their turns waiting, and the enemy continually attacks while you're trying to push through an awful menu. Meanwhile FF XIII streamlines all that, and puts you in the director's chair, where character can attack when they're ready, but following your overall directions.

    VII is button-mashing. XIII is the one that allowed for more mental cognition.

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    EternalAmbiguity
    FF 13 was far from turned based LOL
    You basicaly would just spam commands. And I am pretty sure if you didnt do any commands your party would wiped. correct me if I am wrong on that one since I only played like 10-20 hours because that game was such trash, Teh worst part about it was not being able to fully control your party and just giving them generic and basic commands and hope they did what you wanted them to do and on who.

    They should not make it like FF 13 that is by far the worst FF engine of all time. If they are changing it it should be like FF x-2.
    Calling FF 12 turn based is like calling the dragon age games turn based which they are not.

    Just because you have a cool down on spells or actions does not make it a turn based game.
    As I said above, it's actually the opposite: VII dumped too much on the player's lap, so you had to spam commands to keep up with the enemy who was constantly attacking, and your two other party members who are constantly waiting to take their turn. "Your party would wiped." Not sure what you mean here, do you mean your party would wipe or be wiped, aka die on their own? Not really, because the other two party members could attack on their own.

    SE only letting you give generic and basic command allowed them to make the combat focus on things like buffing and debuffing, and staggering, and the Commando/Ravager difference. It brought depth to the combat, in addition to keeping it from being a frustrating button-mash-fest like VII was.

    And about the "turn-based" part, read my first reply in this (long) post. It actually is turn-based. It works in precisely the same way that VII does. Turn-based has nothing to do with how many characters you're controlling.

    Originally Posted by dravenla
    There is a huge difference between 7 and 13. In 13 if you want to heal a certain character you cant. You just select heal and the CPU puts what character will cast heal and on whom. That is nothing like 7.

    They are like night and day,
    That's only true for non-controlled characters. If you assign one of them as a Medic, they will heal based on who has the lowest HP. It can be somewhat annoying when you're all in "green" health and the AI only does a single heal per turn, not letting anyone get to full HP, but it's far from a flawed system. FF XIII has some of the best party AI in the business, actually.

    But anyway, if you're playing the Medic yourself, you CAN choose who to heal, and for how much.

    Mega-edit: here's an example of FF XIII's combat complexity.


    There's nothing in VII that even comes close to the strategy there ^, it's basically just spamming attack, or magic attacks, or finding the one gimmick for that enemy.
    Last edited by EternalAmbiguity; 20th Jun 2015 at 04:41.
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  18. #18
    The game in my eyes should not be changed in any way shape or form throughout the original story. My biggest fear is that they try and implement a lot of new things which would dilute such a great game and possibly spoil it. Some times less is more. The ATB system might not have been to everyone's taste but did that alone make you hate the game? The only changes I would like are cosmetic. After you finish the main story then go wild with additional missions or an extension of the main story. I really hope they don't use other spin offs from FF VII to dictate where additional stories lead to. I understand a lot of people would like to see things like the Dirge of Cerberus added into the story but I don't want the guys creating this game to feel obligated follow those story's. After the main game I would love to see more Weapon fights, expand the world both on land and under water and even bring in new summon techniques like a weapon that merges summons so you could have the KOTR ride into battle on chocobos or have neo bahamut raise an enemy on a platform whilst zero bahamut devastates them with his attack. As everyone knows the possibilities are endless for what they could do, but to detract from the original game by adding things or replace original things is just to much of a gamble imho. Remake the game I love, then go nuts with changes after we beat the main game.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by weethor
    The game in my eyes should not be changed in any way shape or form throughout the original story. My biggest fear is that they try and implement a lot of new things which would dilute such a great game and possibly spoil it. Some times less is more. The ATB system might not have been to everyone's taste but did that alone make you hate the game? The only changes I would like are cosmetic. After you finish the main story then go wild with additional missions or an extension of the main story. I really hope they don't use other spin offs from FF VII to dictate where additional stories lead to. I understand a lot of people would like to see things like the Dirge of Cerberus added into the story but I don't want the guys creating this game to feel obligated follow those story's. After the main game I would love to see more Weapon fights, expand the world both on land and under water and even bring in new summon techniques like a weapon that merges summons so you could have the KOTR ride into battle on chocobos or have neo bahamut raise an enemy on a platform whilst zero bahamut devastates them with his attack. As everyone knows the possibilities are endless for what they could do, but to detract from the original game by adding things or replace original things is just to much of a gamble imho. Remake the game I love, then go nuts with changes after we beat the main game.
    If you want to play the original FF VII, Tetsuya Nomura thinks you should go play the original FF VII. This game is NOT going to simply be a cosmetic upgrade. Realize that now.
    Mooberry the Cow God demands repentance and belief!

  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity
    If you want to play the original FF VII, Tetsuya Nomura thinks you should go play the original FF VII. This game is NOT going to simply be a cosmetic upgrade. Realize that now.
    That what the fans want. They want the FF7 they know and love with updated graphics. Not some crappy ADD control one player at a time, action battle engine. FF has lost its way since going away from turn based. FF X-2 was the last great battle engine they had. Its going to be a show if they change the classic battle system to something like FF 13 pr FF 15

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by Rayziyun
    If the Final Fantasy VII Remake is shown to play like Final Fantasy XV I will be cheering. Although I would like to be able to control the entire party.
    In the gaming landscape in general, you would be the majority. For this remake, you'd be drowned out by all the boos. I see and hear WAAAAAAAAAAAY more people asking for it to be turn-based, than asking for it to be action.

    By the way, TC, someday I'd like to play Lost Odyssey. I, and many others, simply never owned an X360, which is exactly why it didn't sell a whole lot.

  22. #22
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    Originally Posted by Kalkano
    In the gaming landscape in general, you would be the majority. For this remake, you'd be drowned out by all the boos. I see and hear WAAAAAAAAAAAY more people asking for it to be turn-based, than asking for it to be action.

    By the way, TC, someday I'd like to play Lost Odyssey. I, and many others, simply never owned an X360, which is exactly why it didn't sell a whole lot.
    The fact is, if Lost Odyssey was called FF 13 it would have sold 6-7 million copies, and if FF 13 was called Lost Odyssey and just on Xbox 360 it would have sold just around 1m

    The name FF sells on its own even if the game is terrible like the last few have been. Even the reviews are padded (like COD) because its called FF.
    FF 13 was a crappy game, a terrible RPG with a terrible story and it got a 83 average rating, if this game was not called FF it would have gotten in the 50s or 60s. . Lost Odyssey on the other hand had an average rating of 78, but if that was called FF it would have gotten in the high 80s or low 90s.

  23. #23
    dravenla The new Robocop was a Reboot not a Remake, you can't compare .

    Most people who asked for a remake didn't know what it truly means.

    You can't remade things without making it for the current era.

    Sure the fans are important but companies want to gather as many consumers as possible.

    Also no one can say that what fans want, I actually saw alot of people wanting this game to be more action oriented.

    Also my experience on the internet says that not everything what people say they want is what they really do.

    Tetsuya Nomura also said if you want to play turn based just play the pc remaster and that they will make the remake more for the current era in mind.

    So you can expect arpg here, even though it's not certain.

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by Verusgate
    Tetsuya Nomura also said if you want to play turn based just play the pc remaster
    He absolutely did not say that. You're seeing what you want to see. Also, saying that people who have been waiting over a decade for a remake should just go play the original is absurd.