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Thread: Leavers Issue

Leavers Issue

  1. #1

    Quitters

    Going into closed beta the biggest issue I have seen is that certain players will quit a game as soon as they get down 5 or 6 kills. Im assuming they avoid losses otherwise there is no reason to do so. If they in fact avoid losses that has to be fixed.

  2. #2
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    Well I agree if they do this to avoid losses yes, they should get a penalty.
    but then I also sometimes leave because I am OP against the opposite team and Don;t like it (Winning match) and then join some friends.

    Next to that if there is a Disconnected then there should be no penalty./

  3. #3
    Thats an issue that seems alpha related, with the release of the closed beta we should hopefully have less lopsided games. The issue is the few players who refuse to lose by refusing to finish rounds/matches unless they are winning. There is one player that I have played over a dozen games with/against and he has NEVER finished a game.

  4. #4
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    The games are going to be ridiculous for the first few weeks. There's going to be pre-set teams of low ranked veterans DESTROYING newbie random set-ups. Hopefully, it'll even out eventually, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of matchmaking at the start.

    And unlike before the teams were blocked in alpha, many players won't be going easy. In alpha people had XP levels maxed and most of the main abilities they wanted unlocked. Now they will be lvl 1 and the race to max will begin. Some newbies are about to get trounced.

    my only hope, if at all possible, is that the vets stay out of the newcomer lobby at the very least.
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  5. #5
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    I will go to newcomer lobby when I get back mwhaha.
    cause I have to rush to max level. (got a 5 month delay)

  6. #6
    I'll probably go to the newcomer lobby to practice the classes I never really played (i.e. the new ones, scout, and sentinel). Scout I just need practice, sentinel I just get frustrated because I always fight nothing but scouts and hunters that are good at shooting me down, ideally against newcomers I will actually have a chance to do something as a sentinel so I can get better.

    @Hiru If that happens people will just disconnect themselves to avoid it. I say leaving a game for any reason should just count as a loss in addition to getting no gold for it. That's penalty enough imo. Only people that should get penalized harshly in my opinion are win traders, cheaters, and people that act really abusive in chat/voice chat.

    On that note though, what if someone leaves a team and the people that are down one get a small buff of some kind? Not to the point where it's better than having a fourth but to give them a bit more of a fighting chance? I remember being in a game where we had two disconnects and it was me and one other person as vampires for a good 5-6 minutes, it was just awful.

    Edit: Then there was another game like that where the vamps had two disconnects while we were playing humans, we felt so bad we decided to stop attacking and let them practice as Sentinel with their flying and kidnap and such, we already had the game won by that point no matter what they did so we opted to screw around for a bit!

  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by hirukaru
    I will go to newcomer lobby when I get back mwhaha.
    That's so mean of you Hiru

  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by lucinvampire
    That's so mean of you Hiru
    I have to learn the game also I have been gone for 5 months by then . (And I am mean )

    @khalith, the buff suggestion has been made earlier. As I recall this will not be in asap. But they take it into consideration.
    If people really DC them selfs they are sad :P But I my self don't like to get a penalty for something I cannot help.
    A counter will help if something like that happens often he will have to get a penalty.

  9. #9
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    I will confess that I've quit mid-match, all though this is more because the teams are so mismatched that I find my self on the loadout screen too much. At this point its not fun and I leave.
    There has also been players leaving games because they refuse to play human or vampires.
    In-game: Sirshua, being a sir everywhere.

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by hirukaru
    I have to learn the game also I have been gone for 5 months by then . (And I am mean .
    I'm only kidding... I'll be heading there too as I want to actually try to play a Sent where you guys won't snipe me across the map lol.

  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by Khalith
    Edit: Then there was another game like that where the vamps had two disconnects while we were playing humans, we felt so bad we decided to stop attacking and let them practice as Sentinel with their flying and kidnap and such, we already had the game won by that point no matter what they did so we opted to screw around for a bit!
    Props again for that, I really managed to hone my dive bombs!
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  12. #12
    The so-called "Rage quit" hell is quite a problem. Killer Instinct kinda screwed it's matchmaking when it tried to add it. So we should be careful.

    I think WarThunder's system is pretty neat. There even if you quit the game you were in, it still notifies you of the match results and gives you the Win boost (if you won) for the actions that you did or a loss count.

  13. #13
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    I personally favor "time-outs."
    Players who leave often get a temp ban. Short enough to not make them hate people, but long enough to prevent it from happening intentionally. People complain about random disconnects, but in a team game if you can't stay conencted you'lre hurting your team just as bad. Some days you might just have to sit out, it happens to everyone at some point.
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  14. #14
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    How do you not penalise players who get full system crashes halfway through a game? Or internet connection problems? It happened 4 times to me on the alpha. I'm hoping the beta will be more stable.

  15. #15
    Well, I feel like that's punishing the majority in order to get to the minority...I have same problem as AbWill. Usually I tell players that I'm quitting, such as incredibly bad lag, and other times I'll get booted due to bad connection and don't have the opportunity to say anything.

  16. #16
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    Have a counter tied to the exit match button, set to zero, and increases by one when it is clicked. If the game crashes, the button wasn't clicked so the counter is unchanged. If the counter is any value other than zero, introduce a penalty. Although I find many players rage quit, then just get dropped back into the same game, that might be punishing enough to them
    In-game: Sirshua, being a sir everywhere.

  17. #17
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    An abandonment system in Nosgoth

    Abandon definition: Disconnecting and not coming back, or staying afk for long enough warranting a auto-kick and abandon status.

    I am not sure how many times I have seen people get frustrated in chat or Raidcall over people simply leaving or afking if a game is going badly (or even before it starts). With the current system there are absolutely no consequences for leaving during a game, and you are still rewarded if you stay afk in a match. You get gold for simply joining and staying in a match. Tonight and last Friday I (and Boreaquis) experienced several games in a row with different people being afk. Having someone afk for 5 - 6 minutes (that's over half the match) before getting thrown out is not something I have intentions of putting up with. The result was simple: I stopped playing, or leave as soon as I see a hint of someone AFKing. I am starting to suspect some people are abusing the system to get the gold by just keeping Nosgoth in the background and joining a game. I am not blaming the players, but a sub-par and incomplete lobby system. Anyways enough ranting, let's get to the point.

    I made this thread to compare how existing games do it and discuss how, and if these could even be applied to Nosgoth. I know that the game in it's current state would never be able to implement such a system because of the incomplete lobby system and network issues leading to disconnects where you are unable to rejoin. The rise in the playerbase has in my eyes created a need for some kind of system to punish leavers and afkers. I have seen games deal with abandons in numerous ways. Each with pros, cons and severity of punishment.

    Abandon Systems
    All the systems include two features: If a player abandons a game players are free to leave without being punished but the game still counts. If a player abandons early the game is "unofficial", no game stats are tracked and no experience is gained.

    Leave = Punishment (Early Dota 2)
    This is the most basic system I have seen. If a player abandons a game he is instantly punished. The player is put in a "low priority queue" for 24 hours. This means he will be put in queue with other abandons, or not be prioritized when finding players for a game. If you queued with a party they were dragged down to the punished players queue while he was in party, meaning parties did not give you a "free pass". When the xp system was implemented you did not gain experience either.

    This system punishes everyone equally, whether you are a first time or repeat offender. The timer keeps on ticking even if you are not playing meaning that some people just choose not to play for the duration of the punishment. Because playing with other leavers sucked, people were reluctant or refused to party up with player while they were being punished.

    Break a thresholds = Punishment. (HoN, late dota 2)
    This system keeps track of a players total games and the amount of games they have abandoned. When a certain threshold is reached (in HoN it was 5% above 100 games) the player is punished. The system does not start tracking abandons until an X amount of games. Dota 2 adds an abandon to whoever the leaver queued with, and not just the person himself. Even if you are punished and keep leaving the percentage will just increase meaning it is harder to "get back" to normal each time you leave.

    The punishment differs in HoN and Dota 2. Dota 2 simply lowers your priority in queue and you gain no xp while above the abandon threshold. Hon has perhaps the harshest system I have ever experienced. It puts you into a separate queue for only leavers if possible meaning that playing a good and normal game there is virtually impossible. I have been over 5% once in HoN.....once. Never again.

    Attendance Bonus (Smite)
    Smite has a very weak system to punish abandons, all that happens is that you can't queue for a game in the next 30 miuntes. In my opinion this system is too lenient and you will still see people abandon more often here then in for example Dota2 or HoN. What Smite does well is that it rewards you for playing a consecutive amount of games and not abandoning. This bonus can rise up to a 1.5 or 2 multiplier I believe, which means double xp and gold at best. This helped reduce first time leavers, but once their bonus was broken most people stopped caring about it, and would just take the 30 minute punishment. People are still complaining that 30 minutes is not harsh enough as an average game might last up to 45 minutes, so they still "save time".


    What do you want to see in Nosgoth?
    I know it's not realistic to demand everything at once, so I am just going to prioritize it. Add your own ideas and suggestions guys ( and girls) I would love to hear them!

    1. Fix afkers, reduce the span it takes to get kicked, like 30 seconds or something.
    2. Punish abandons with a 20 min period they can't join. (To prevent them from leaving a game they are losing to get in a good one)
    3. Remove xp and gold gain for a period of time if you abandon, preferable based on IN MATCH time.
    4. Start tracking leave stats, if they get below a certain threshold, remove the XP and Gold gain until they rise above it..


    "TOO LONG POST WOBBLEY" a.k.a the short version for lazy people (CookieDude)
    There are numerous ways to punish leavers, some have been suggested above. What kind of abandon system would you like to see in Nosgoth? Do you hate my suggestions, is it fine to not punish abandons, am I just being a jerk?

  18. #18
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    I agree with kicking people who are AFK - maybe like 1 min max waiting before it does?

    Punish abandons with a 20 min period they can't join. (To prevent them from leaving a game they are losing to get in a good one)
    I see this being a bit unfair - why should I stay in a match which I do not enjoy? Maybe progressive time off like you can´t play for 5 mins, 10, 15, etc. if you keep leaving matches?

    Not really sure about removing XP/Gold.
    Last edited by RainaAudron; 12th Mar 2014 at 19:37.

  19. #19
    I like the special queue for leavers that break the threshold. It would be nice to have an attendance bonus as well to encourage people to stick it out as well. Might make people feel better when they have bad games as well.
    IGN: Aquilus

  20. #20
    I like the 2nd option you mentioned. I do want to point out that more detailed rules have to be made for this to work. For example, lets say someone did leave and someone else tried to join. The person trying to join may not want to play an already active game. Happens to me all the time and I leave immediately because I get forced into a game that is ongoing but don't want to play an already started match. Those people shouldn't be punished.

    In addition, a leave shouldn't be calculated as a leave if the player reconnects quickly. This is because the game may crash or the player really did get dc and wants to reconnect. However this does present another problem in that if this scenario does occur and another player takes his place before he can reconnect, what happens? I think the best option here may be if someone leaves there is an option for players to report and that is when they get a bad stat. This way the dc player can communicate to the existing players via steam that he dced and cant reconnect.

    I don't think giving gold and xp in this game as an attendance bonus is good. The reason is that this is not a moba game where their are tons of heros to choose from and buy. This game doesn't have that kind of selection and it is already really easy to get new equipment. Maybe instead of promoting take some more away. For example every leave you lose a substantial amount of gold, like 200 and it is possible to have negative gold if the user does not have any more gold left. In addition, no xp loss will occur so that people cant delevel and smurf noobs. That would really punish people. In addition, maybe you lose your daily perk until you get past the threshold of leaves.

    AFK timer should be 1 minute.

  21. #21
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    Originally Posted by RainaAudron
    I agree with kicking people who are AFK - maybe like 1 min max waiting before it does?



    I see this being a bit unfair - why should I stay in a match which I wish do not enjoy? Maybe progressive time off like you can´t play for 5 mins, 10, 15, etc. if you keep leaving matches?

    Not really sure about removing XP/Gold.
    I sometimes also have to go afk for a few minutes because of way more important things, I do tell my team. (thats the reason why I do not like afk auto kickers set to a low value)

    I also just want to be able to leave with out a to big of penalty what raina suggested is ok as lon as there is like a maximum of 30 minutes.

    I do how ever like a reward system more if it is worked out correctly. This duo to a given fact that humans respond better to rewards then to punishment.

    So a combination of all including a /afk_request command would be nice.
    (if people vote no when I request it I will just use the avoid button, to punish my self even further)

  22. #22
    I've only experienced afk timers myself, though with only 10 minute rounds they'd likely have to be rather low to be of any use as even a minute in this game can result in a rather difficult to overcome hurdle in other to achieve victory.

    Any 'penalty' I think should just hover around the same amount of time required to finish a match. So if you leave after the first round, you have to wait the length of a match to join back in. By leave I mean 'Hit the confirmation button' to leave a match. I'd be willing to bet that the system could easily differentiate between 'hitting the button' and a general Steam disconnect. Of course I suppose people would just force quit out of the game in this case, but its at least a start..

    I agree about the reward vs. punishment comment that Hiru made though. Gamers don't like punishments and work better with incentive to play fairly. If you really want to provide incentive for people to stay in a match once there are known afkers or leavers, you could apply a multiplier to gold gained based on how low the players in match got too. Say if one person left and you spent time 3v4, maybe there is a passive +10% gold multiplier....now I'm sure that the math could be worked out better than the random number that popped into my head, but that's just my thought. Would even make people that join late potentially stick around as they know they'd get a gold bonus at the end of the match.

  23. #23
    I have been AFK once, I hated it :-( but I didn't know what to do and couldn't stay at my computer. I've never played online games before but I thought leaving would have just made things far worse for the team.

    I got back into the action as soon as possible but now I wonder what would have been best thing to do?

    What is the etiquette in the online gaming world?

    If you only have 3 that team seems doomed to failure and it's not guaranteed that anyone else will come in, many games I've gone all the way through with just 3 people knowing we would lose and it's not a nice feeling :-(.

    Maybe if there is an extra reward for people who stay even when playing in a team of three for more than half the match to counter the inevitable defeat? And if possible reward the others if a member of the team is AFK for a certain length of time with nothing for the AFK player?

    Also what about when your character is stuck? It happened to me a couple of times on one server and it took someone knocking into me to release me - touch wood it's not happened since I changed my keyboard and avoiding that server for the day. If I see someone not moving I'm prone to believing they are stuck and do go run into them to 'free' them rather than thinking they are AFK but maybe that's me being too nice. I can say I see a lot of 'stuck' people some days :-(

    Tonight I saw someone simply rage quit and disappear because the rest of the team were not doing well and then another simply went AFK again complaining about the team putting us down to two. This seems unfair and quite cruel of players, how do you help the others get better if you just rage quit? :-(

    I do think there should be something to punish people who leave perhaps after the first minute of play, this protects those who get disconnected when they join a game or encounter difficulties forcing them to abandon and gives players who join halfway through the option to leave if they want.

    So many sad faces in this post but it is a sad topic.

  24. #24
    Although leaving and afk happens, I don't think it's as big of a deal as to punish everyone for it. There have been games that I have left because they were so frustrating and not fun to deal with that I would have left no matter what the punishment was, and if I was too severely punished for it, I'd be less motivated to come back. I've also d/ced in the middle of matches, and if I was punished for THAT, I'd be rather upset. Also, hacks are starting to come up for this game, and I don't blame anyone who leaves those matches.

    After all is said and done, this is a game that is designed more casually. Lol, HoN, Dota2, these are games where people don't get replaced when they leave. Moreover, these are games with completely different flows. In our game, time lost equates to kill difference. In theirs, time lost equates to power lost, and removing a player can remove more than 20% of the team's potential power (5 people on each team) because of gold. This game has more in common with TF2 than mobas. If there's going to be a deserter penalty, it should be light.

  25. #25
    It sounds like a good idea when you're worked up over players leaving but...Doesn't sound so great once you've calmed down. If I bail on a match, I have my reasons - Computer needs a break, got disconnected, dinner time, someone in the match is being a douche and ruining the fun...And I'm to be punished for any of that? Bull.

    I mean, it sucks when I find the odds suddenly shifted to 2 VS. 4 due to deserters but it's a simple enough fix to leave and find a proper 4V4 match. On the whole, a simple lack of gold/EXP for abandoned matches (which, AFAIK, happens by default already) seems quite enough.

    Alternatively, go the reward route instead of the punishment route and just make it another gold factor. Post-match gold received is currently determined by things like boosters used or not, win or loss...So add 'Completed match' to that. Give a little extra to people who stick around all the way through rather than taking extra from those who don't. Positive reinforcement and all that. These are the only reasonable methods, I think. Anything else just seems excessive and raises worse problems than it solves (as mentioned, people being punished for valid and/or uncontrollable exit reasons).
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 12th Mar 2014 at 08:37.

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