Page 2 of 3 First First 123 Last

Thread: 3rd Person Cover System & Take Downs

3rd Person Cover System & Take Downs

  1. #26
    Mandkind is divided - between 1st or 3rd person gaming. Maybe we are on the brink of war ;-)

    I think Square Enix did a good job in Human Revolution trying to offer something to both sides. I hope they hold on to that and make it even better - Or do like they did in Skyrim, where you could choose between 1st and 3rd person with a simple click of a button. That would be awesome.....

  2. #27
    Originally Posted by Agerholm
    Or do like they did in Skyrim, where you could choose between 1st and 3rd person with a simple click of a button. That would be awesome.....
    You'd like that awesome button, wouldn't you?

    I was going to go on about how third person just has no place in the Looking Glass lineage of Im Sim game design, going off of all their games of this type, but then I remembered Thief: Deadly Shadows exists. I also remembered that EM doesn't give a crap about Looking Glass' legendary style.

  3. #28
    Does Looking Glass own the intellectual property? Nope, they don't even exist so why focus on what they did? Is Mario still a 2D side scroller? Get with the program and just accept the fact that the camera perspective has nothing to do with how great or weak a game is unless the camera is broken. First person, third person, it doesn't matter.

  4. #29
    Originally Posted by NUMBER8ISGREAT
    Does Looking Glass own the intellectual property? Nope, they don't even exist so why focus on what they did?
    Because what they did holds great relevance. What they did was went where few developers ever go. They pushed the medium, unlike EM.

    Originally Posted by NUMBER8ISGREAT
    First person, third person, it doesn't matter.
    Yes it does, but don't worry yourself about it. It is time for me to shut my mouth and move on.

  5. #30
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Because what they did holds great relevance. What they did was went where few developers ever go. They pushed the medium, unlike EM.



    Yes it does, but don't worry yourself about it. It is time for me to shut my mouth and move on.
    What they did is meaningless now. A new company owns the IP, younger people are playing the game, etc. Yes, they pushed the envelope and how far did that get them exactly? Where are they now? Forget about the past, are they relevant today? No, so why stay stuck on the past?

    And first person or third person doesn't matter one bit. GTA 5 is proving that again and again.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    4,673
    Originally Posted by Agerholm
    I think Square Enix did a good job in Human Revolution trying to offer something to both sides. I hope they hold on to that and make it even better.



    Originally Posted by Agerholm
    Or do like they did in Skyrim, where you could choose between 1st and 3rd person with a simple click of a button. That would be awesome.....
    Khm, Iron Storm (2002), khm...

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by NUMBER8ISGREAT
    What they did is meaningless now. A new company owns the IP, younger people are playing the game, etc. Yes, they pushed the envelope and how far did that get them exactly? Where are they now? Forget about the past, are they relevant today? No, so why stay stuck on the past?
    Because the past is superior to the present. And yes, younger people do play their games, not that this is relevant at all. Looking Glass are very much still relevant, otherwise DX:HR wouldn't be a thing, nor would those other number of weaksauce titles that I won't bother to name.

    And first person or third person doesn't matter one bit. GTA 5 is proving that again and again.
    Look harder. Perhaps do some reading up on the perspectives and their impact on gameplay, storytelling, immersion and more.
    Also, the only thing GTAV is proving is that Rockstar, like so many, have lost sight of what makes games fun.
    Do you like yoga? Do you like Shipping and logistics? Dog walking & Dog mating? Arguments with the wife and frequent visits to the psychologist? A world so impressively large, yet filled with relatively little interactive content? Mindlessly following map markers around? FUN.
    Of course maybe those things can be made into fun gameplay events, but certainly not as they were implemented in GTAV.
    Last edited by CyberP; 9th Apr 2015 at 23:25.

  8. #33
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Because the past is superior to the present. And yes, younger people do play their games, not that this is relevant at all. Looking Glass are very much still relevant, otherwise DX:HR wouldn't be a thing, nor would those other number of weaksauce titles that I won't bother to name.
    The past being superior is a matter of opinion. The fact younger people are playing the game is highly relevant. The younger people don't care about some dusty game from 15 years ago from a company that is not relevant. The company hasn't had a title in over a decade. Why? Because they no longer exist. They're no longer relevant just like 38 Games, Data East, Vigil, Silicon Knights or any of the thousands of companies that failed. DX:HR being in existence does not mean Looking Glass is still relevant. What you're implying is no different than dinosaurs being relevant today because crocs exist. Hopefully you can see the absurdity in what you're suggesting. What company is relevant? EM/SE. What game is relevant? DE:MD. But hey, if you think Looking Glass should live on vicariously through someone else's hard work, time and money then have at it.

    Look harder. Perhaps do some reading up on the perspectives and their impact on gameplay, storytelling, immersion and more.
    Also, the only thing GTAV is proving is that Rockstar, like so many, have lost sight of what makes games fun.
    Do you like yoga? Do you like Shipping and logistics? Dog walking & Dog mating? Arguments with the wife and frequent visits to the psychologist? A world so impressively large, yet filled with relatively little interactive content? Mindlessly following map markers around? FUN.
    Of course maybe those things can be made into fun gameplay events, but certainly not as they were implemented in GTAV.
    No need to look harder as you're going to come with the same tired argument you've always presented to the board for years now. No need for me to waste my time any longer with this. Like I said, GTA 5 proves third and first person can be achieved without being problematic and MSG, the standard of stealth games, proved third person was a viable option for stealth. And even Klei, with MOTN, a 2D game, proved you don't need a first person camera to pull off exciting gameplay, storytelling, immersion, etc.

  9. #34
    Good to have you back, HERESY

    MSG, the standard of stealth games
    ...Right.

    , proved third person was a viable option for stealth
    Nobody said it was not viable. I love me some old third person stealth games.

    Anyway, this is copy-pasta stuff, pointless cycles of silly arguments.

  10. #35
    Originally Posted by knox140
    I don't mind 3rd person cover either. But takedowns need to be 1st person... people didn't like them in HR and they didn't like the arial ones in Thief either, I don't see any reason why they need to be in 3rd.
    Hey knox, did you get sick of the thief forums yet? I kinda just stopped going there, it's turning into an echo chamber of people who think thief 4 is somehow better than thief 2, i.e. a deluded panopticon overlooked by the further deluded...

    I also notice Stephen rwwrwrwrwrwaaaaaaahhhhhh is the executive producer on DE:MD, I was really excited about the new deus ex game until I saw his name in the credits. Very dubious now. I guess the deus ex team seemed to have more coordinated direction last time, so hopefully it won't be the product of a shambolic, ever churning, misguided, misinformed managerial direction... that clearly thief's development had.
    Last edited by sirtaff; 10th Apr 2015 at 09:37.
    Thief 5 creation instructions: Play thief 2, play again, pay UDK4 or idTech 6 licence, employ engine programmers who are able to code jumping physics, listen to fans not ubisoft

  11. #36
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,497
    Originally Posted by NUMBER8ISGREAT
    Copy-Pasta
    http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/sho...d.php?t=154588

    Say something new.

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Good to have you back, HERESY
    ?



    ...Right.
    It is. Critics, devs and the fans, the general consensus is that MGS is the standard for the stealth genre. I mean think about this, Thief gets announced or a new Deus Ex is announced and maybe people are happy for it and it's in the news. A new MGS gets announced and you see possible bundles, custom consoles, millions of posts, etc. Not too many people care if Warren Spector makes a game or if LG comes back from the dead. But Kojima and MG? It's a different story because Kojima and MGS set the bar. I mean just look at the recent revelations about Kojima and Konami, Silent Hills and other things. It's the stealth people gravitate to and it's the company people rally behind.

  13. #38
    Switching between 1st and 3rd person cover when you stuck to a conveniently placed waist-high wall was annoying. The perspective shift wasn't smooth. A minor complaint, but one worth making. The obvious advantage gained when using this combined with the pretty poor AI routines made the stealth pretty easy. Either bring the camera much closer so you've got a much smaller view of the battlefield or dump 3rd person. Hell, I'd rather see them focus on one perspective and work out a decent game for that rather than continue this weird amalgamation.

    The take-downs became repetitive fast. They took you out of the game for a while and forced you to wait an eternity for that damn cell to recharge. Not an enjoyable bit of experience. Amusing the first three times you saw all of them, after that a mere annoyance to deal with. Shorten them considerably and vary them much, much more, or leave them out.



    Originally Posted by Ashpolt
    This old soldier's fought for too long*, but keep up the fight, friends! I don't think it'll go anywhere, but sometimes, the fight is worth it for its own sake!
    You got weak, old man.


    Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix
    I don't have the energy to fight this fight again. It's not as if it did one single bit of good last time.
    That wasn't a reason to give up then and it isn't now.


    Originally Posted by CyberP
    First person takedowns look cool too (see Dishonored).
    Agreed. They worked there and they could work here. The takedowns attached to end-of-level targets were especially nice. Long, but nice.


    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    I loved that thread.

  14. #39
    Originally Posted by NUMBER8ISGREAT
    ?





    It is. Critics, devs and the fans, the general consensus is that MGS is the standard for the stealth genre. I mean think about this, Thief gets announced or a new Deus Ex is announced and maybe people are happy for it and it's in the news. A new MGS gets announced and you see possible bundles, custom consoles, millions of posts, etc. Not too many people care if Warren Spector makes a game or if LG comes back from the dead. But Kojima and MG? It's a different story because Kojima and MGS set the bar. I mean just look at the recent revelations about Kojima and Konami, Silent Hills and other things. It's the stealth people gravitate to and it's the company people rally behind.
    With this mentality minecraft is the standard for all games in general, being one of the highest-selling games of all time.
    Definitely the HERESY mentality. Popularity != quality, chump.
    I'd say all MGS set the standard for is cinematic storytelling, something that many studios attempt to replicate and fail miserably. I'd rather it not be the standard for stealth games as it consists of 70% story 30% gameplay. Skip all the cutscenes and it is over in four hours. The gameplay itself certainly is pretty good but I don't hold it in the highest regard.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,198
    Originally Posted by Irate_Iguana
    That wasn't a reason to give up then and it isn't now.
    We can post on this forum until our eyes bleed and our fingers start to fall off, listing all the reasons why design decisions like contextual third person cover, automatic regenerating health, takedowns, mid-mission cutscenes, etc are contrary to the design philosophies of Deus Ex. We can protest for years to come, and none of it will mean a single thing.

    As long as the franchise is in the hands of this studio, and owned by Square Enix, you will continue to see "streamlined," cutscene-driven, poorly-written games like Human Revolution. They have their brand icon now (yay! another Master Chief/Cmdr. Shepard/Marcus Fenix/insert protagonist here _____). They have supporters like Heresy or Lady_of_the_Vine who can get on here and beat the pro-EM drum for hours on end, labeling all of us old-schoolers as curmudgeonly "haters" who just love to complain.

    And I'm sorry, I don't have the desire or energy to rehash the same arguments we had for years leading up to DXHR, just to be crushed by watching my favorite franchise sink further and further into mainstream, generic, 8th-grade level "kewl"-ness.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Montrealing all over this place
    Posts
    3,041
    Originally Posted by Irate_Iguana
    .
    Look who the wind brought back! Always good to see a familiar face.
    To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness

  17. #42
    I am not going to be popular here, especially as new face, but I did not even notice the transitions. I even welcomed it to be able to see surroundings and self in same image. Least covering gave me opportunity to see my character and with laser-sights on my weapons or the scopes it was irrelevant as well. But they could always give people option to change it like Bethesda Soft has in their Skyrim, but Skyrim is that one game where either views has fundamental flaws in some point of game. Try shoot something in 3rd person. And there are times, when you cant see anything properly in 1st person. For them the swapping button is essential. In DX3 it wasn't feeling for me as important to swap out other than preference.

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    8
    Shouldn't take too long until we also have people demanding first person cutscenes or first person movies.

    Jensen has some pretty awesome takedowns and you wouldn't be able to see in 1st person view.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,497
    If we have to have cutscenes then they should be in-engine and in first person.

  20. #45
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    With this mentality minecraft is the standard for all games in general, being one of the highest-selling games of all time.
    Definitely the HERESY mentality. Popularity != quality, chump.
    It set a standard, sure. And if we apply the four key components you mentioned in the other thread then, yes, we can definitely say it set a standard.

    I'd say all MGS set the standard for is cinematic storytelling, something that many studios attempt to replicate and fail miserably. I'd rather it not be the standard for stealth games as it consists of 70% story 30% gameplay. Skip all the cutscenes and it is over in four hours. The gameplay itself certainly is pretty good but I don't hold it in the highest regard.
    Ok, but the general consensus in the gaming community is that MGS, not Thief, not Deus Ex, not Dishonored, not Tenchu, Splinter Cell, not [insert game title here] is the standard when it comes to stealth. It's the rubric, it's the "A-Side" and everything else is the B-side.

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by NUMBER8ISGREAT
    it's the "A-Side" and everything else is the B-side.





    Baby's first game featuring any notable depth.

    Fails to see how illogical and inconsistent it can be in both it's gameplay and story.
    Last edited by CyberP; 12th Apr 2015 at 04:14.

  22. #47
    Konami = Still in existence and profitable.

    Kojima = Still making games.

    MGS = 30 million across the franchise.

    LGS = Out of business.

    Spector, Church, etc = Haven't made a decent game in over ten years.

    Deus Ex = 5 million across the franchise (with two million coming from HR.)

    MGS = The A-SIDE.

  23. #48
    Troll harder, HERESY.

    Your God from the nanomachine (Kojima) is to leave: http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/metal_..._5_report.html

    Your beloved MGS will be milked dry from that point onward, as is the standard. Circumstance dictated the glory lasted this long.
    MGS will have it's very own inferior "Universe". I wonder if you'll continue your rhetoric along the lines of "SACRIFICE ALL THE ARTS FOR THE REVENUE!!!111" once the time comes.

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Troll harder, HERESY.
    ?

    Your God from the nanomachine (Kojima) is to leave: http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/metal_..._5_report.html
    And that is proving my point I made earlier. Kojima rumors, speculation, stories, etc means the industry is turned upside down and the spotlight is on him. A new Deus Ex game is announced and it's treated with respect and coverage but not as much.

    Your beloved MGS will be milked dry from that point onward, as is the standard. Circumstance dictated the glory lasted this long.
    MGS will have it's very own inferior "Universe". I wonder if you'll continue your rhetoric along the lines of "SACRIFICE ALL THE ARTS FOR THE REVENUE!!!111" once the time comes.
    But the general consensus in the gaming community is it's the standard.

  25. #50
    The general consensus within ISIS' ranks is heathens such as yourself should die.

    The whole world consists of varying degrees of lunacy and cultist behaviour. What else is new?

Page 2 of 3 First First 123 Last