Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread: Current Meta Frusterations!!

Current Meta Frusterations!!

  1. #1

    Current Meta Frusterations!!

    Right now the current Meta for vampires is running 2 summoners with Hellstrike. The other 2 classes really don't matter at this point.

    The summoners Initiate with Hellstrike or wait for another iniator to go in and then land hellstrikes. The damage from them is around 400 damage, and if you are hit by 2 you take between 600-800 damage with the humans average life around 1100 you are sitting at 300-500 health to actually fight with. This already put the humans down pretty low to fight against the vampires, and a smart vampire team will pick off who ever got the bulk of the hellstrikes before there is much time to react.

    The next follow up is for the summoners to then join the battle with the other 2 vampires. They either A. right away summon minions and start tearing someone to shreds. B. Use power attacks on humans distracted on other vampires and when they get shot they summon minions as a shield.

    If they choose A. the fight is massively chaotic and with minions and previous chip damage, favors the vampires.
    If they choose B. They have picked off 1-2 humans before they even need their minions, and then summon minions for final mop up.

    I can't come up with a human comp that will counter this really. The biggest problem is getting 4 humans together and coordinated, as I generally pug with another person, so 2 of us are in voice and 2 are just pugs. I would prefer to have a team spread out quite a bit to prevent collateral damage from Hellstrike but it's really hard to do without a good 4 people in voice chat, there is just no time to type in this game during combat.

    As much as I hate to say it I am curious as pugs how is this strategy fought? Human pugging is a lot tougher than Vampire pugging. This current Vampire strategy is very easy to do and requires little to no interaction from your group members.

    I just want to hear everyone else's thoughts on this as I am tired of doing match after match of fighting non-stop 2 or more summoners. When they all ran abyssal bolt it was not a problem at all but Hellstrike sucks. Multiple summoners can garuntee land a hellstrike if they are smart.

  2. #2
    Summoners are very strong in the current meta but there are ways to improve your performance against them. First and foremost it is important to position properly as Humans - you need to remain spaced out while still maintaining a line of sight on your allies. This is helpful against all vampires but particularly so against the Summoner's Hellstrike.

    If a Summoner initiates with Hellstrike you can hear it coming (unfortunately you can't really see where it is going), so run and roll when this occurs. If the Summoner uses Hellstrike after a different vampire initiates it is much harder to avoid, but this is true for any Vampire attack. Once again staying spread out and doing your best to listen for Hellstrike will help to a degree.

    Summons can make the Summoner impossible to 1v1 in a melee fight by blocking your shots and abilities. However, they are extremely vulnerable to AoE. Thus when facing Summoners make sure someone saves an AoE ability to rapidly eliminate Summons once they appear. The Alchemist's Light Bomb is the gold standard for this, plus she also has AoE from her standard attacks and usually from her second ability. A Summoner with no Summons is nothing special at all in melee combat, though she'll finish you off easily enough if you are weak when she engages.

    As has been mentioned by many players before me, if Hellstrike is changed to indicate where it is about to land the Summoner would be significantly better balanced. Until then be ready to move at a moments notice, keep an AoE ability handy, and encourage your allies to utilize proper positioning and spacing.
    Last edited by HoopleDoople; 25th Mar 2015 at 02:34.

  3. #3
    I dont think their is really a counter to it to be honest . The problem with hellstrike is you have no idea where its gonna land and people often accidentally roll into to it cause god knows where its gonna hit .

    It needs to be like airstrike and abyssal where it has some sort of sound/visual indication upon impact and then detonates for damage .

  4. #4
    My current meta frustration: can't seem to use melee and/or melee skills reliably because hit detection.

    Although I do agree the game was more fun before humans got even more CC (Vanguard) and vampires became ranged (Summoner.) I wouldn't really mind if all of the Vanguard Q skills and the Summoner Special skills were completely scrapped + replaced.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by HoopleDoople
    Summoners are very strong in the current meta but there are ways to improve your performance against them. First and foremost it is important to position properly as Humans - you need to remain spaced out while still maintaining a line of sight on your allies. This is helpful against all vampires but particularly so against the Summoner's Hellstrike.

    If a Summoner initiates with Hellstrike you can hear it coming (unfortunately you can't really see where it is going), so stay run and roll when this occurs. If the Summoner uses Hellstrike after a different vampire initiates it is much harder to avoid, but this is true for any Vampire attack. Once again staying spread out and doing your best to listen for Hellstrike will help to a degree.

    Summons can make the Summoner impossible to 1v1 in a melee fight by blocking your shots and abilities. However, they are extremely vulnerable to AoE. Thus when facing Summoners make sure someone saves an AoE ability to rapidly eliminate Summons once they appear. The Alchemist's Light Bomb is the gold standard for this, plus she also has AoE from her standard attacks and usually from her second ability. A Summoner with no Summons is nothing special at all in melee combat, though she'll finish you off easily enough if you are weak when she engages.

    As has been mentioned by many players before me, if Hellstrike is changed to indicate where it is about to land the Summoner would be significantly better balanced. Until then be ready to move at a moments notice, keep an AoE ability handy, and encourage your allies to utilize proper positioning and spacing.
    Thanks Hoople Doople. I know of this strategy and it still relys on two things. A. A bit of luck to avoid Hellstrike. B. Everyone communicating and working together.

    The main issue with this current meta is to fight it as humans you almost require a pre-made. I personally have had no success with pugs and it's honestly hurting my urge to play even when I get a group together. I understand the need to balance for Tournament level players but for the game to succeed it will need to be puggable as well to draw crowds.

  6. #6
    I just stay inside and away from doorways when the Hellstrike fans show up XP It remains too effective while Abyssal Bolt remains too ineffective. Leashing the ghouls to the Summoner was an alright start but the class could use more work. Starting with an indicator for where Hellstrike will land.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by PencileyePirate
    My current meta frustration: can't seem to use melee and/or melee skills reliably because hit detection.

    Although I do agree the game was more fun before humans got even more CC (Vanguard) and vampires became ranged (Summoner.) I wouldn't really mind if all of the Vanguard Q skills and the Summoner Special skills were completely scrapped + replaced.
    I think the vanguard is fine maybe even a little bit weak atm but the game took a huge step back for me when the summoner was introduced.
    I really wish she would get redesigned

  8. #8
    Fully drawn Scout bow deals 475 damage. Cooldown between shots is 2 sec. He is able to shoot 8 times in the time it takes Summoners to cast 2 Hellstrikes.

    Prophets equip Draining Curse and use summoned Ghouls as a source of healing.

    2 Hunters focus firing the same target will output close to 700 damage per second insta popping even Tyrants in less than 3 seconds. Just from their crossbows.

    All these 3 unit types have enough accuracy to consistently hit their targets at range.

    Shame I decided to delete my footage of a 3 v 4 match against a premade where we won both rounds. They tried Summoner stack, then Tyrant stack before finally settling on a balanced mix.

    Truth is - when playing against competent Humans who understands how the game is played, Vamps will NEVER be able to engage in melee at more than 50% HP.

    When I play Hunter, my job is to keep every vampire I see close to 10% HP. Most of the time I do my job well. Most of the time I only need them exposed for 3 - 4 seconds to get them down to 10%.

  9. #9
    I do agree.
    Most of the games I play nowadays are two summoners and two of some other faction.

    Every scenario with this kind of setupd is depleasing.

    Two deceivers, two summoners >
    Hell strike x2 350~800 dmg depending on your ability to predict where it's gonna land and taking in account summoners know more or less how to aim it.
    Infect x2
    Eventual melees ( optional since the ridiculous amount of dmg )
    Death.

    Two tyrants, two summoners >
    Hell strike x2 350~800 dmg depending on your ability to predict where it's gonna land and taking in account summoners know more or less how to aim it.
    Enraged charges x2 while dodging or dealing with summoned minions
    Eventual charged melee from a behind corner summoner ( optional since the ridiculous amount of dmg )
    Death

    Those two scenarios have been my entire morning yesterday.
    All I can say, NOT FUN. We lost some, we won some, but in the end NOT FUN.

    Oh and let's not forget the summoner who waits evilishly above a healing station to hellstrike while trying to heal from everything above that

  10. #10
    Please keep in Mind that there are a lot of players who just play Summoner and Vanguard because they are the only classes who are left to Level up.

    I basically Do not Agree, but i am the Public Server Player.I Say it all depends on Teamwork.
    The next logic assumption would be have 2 Equal Teams playing and see what happens.
    But that is the Point that leads the whole discussion to Nonsense.

    I agree with a smaller Amount of nerf to the Summoner but in the end it wont tip the Scale...
    But that´s just what i think.
    (How often does this happen)

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by _Kine_
    Fully drawn Scout bow deals 475 damage. Cooldown between shots is 2 sec. He is able to shoot 8 times in the time it takes Summoners to cast 2 Hellstrikes.

    Prophets equip Draining Curse and use summoned Ghouls as a source of healing.

    2 Hunters focus firing the same target will output close to 700 damage per second insta popping even Tyrants in less than 3 seconds. Just from their crossbows.

    All these 3 unit types have enough accuracy to consistently hit their targets at range.

    Shame I decided to delete my footage of a 3 v 4 match against a premade where we won both rounds. They tried Summoner stack, then Tyrant stack before finally settling on a balanced mix.

    Truth is - when playing against competent Humans who understands how the game is played, Vamps will NEVER be able to engage in melee at more than 50% HP.

    When I play Hunter, my job is to keep every vampire I see close to 10% HP. Most of the time I do my job well. Most of the time I only need them exposed for 3 - 4 seconds to get them down to 10%.
    The part of this post you missed is I said 2 summoners, casting hellstrike not 1 summoner casting it 2 times.

    Prophets using draining curse is one of my favorite things to do but a smart summoner tries to bait it, or it get's used to protect a teammate who got hit by hellstrike and other vampires.

    Lastly a good summoner can Hellstrike humans without being scene. Meaning you can't rely on even sniping them.

    However The rest I agree with a good human team should be able to chip away vampires before they ever get in.

    I just believe in the current meta pugging heavily favors vampires because they are much easier to get the normal tactic down with little to no communication.

  12. #12
    I didn't miss it. Was trying to point out that whatever damage numbers people think Summoners can muster, Humans will always out DPS them.

    When I read topics in this forum about this or that stacking, this and that vampire OP I regularly notice people often miss the fact that Humans have more opportunities to damage Vampires AND have higher damage output.

    This single fact escapes people.

    In order for Vampires to injure a Human, they must take damage on approach, while fighting and when trying to flee. And the amount of damage they can potentially do is also less. The only thing Vampires have over Humans is initiative. They can decide when to fight and when not to whether the Humans are ready for it or not.

    Implying that it is only frustrating when playing Humans is misleading. So is saying playing against 2 summoners is frustrating. That is not a rule.

    I've played matches as Vampires with 2 summoners on my team, me being one of them and some of those times it was frustrating for us because we couldn't break the Human's defense. And a couple of those matches we REALLY TRIED. Planning and timing stuff on chat + mic but nothing worked.

    It's the players not the class. Its the team not the composition.

    2 excellent players using anything can make a match frustrating for you.

    2 other guys synching well with you on your team can make life hell for the opposition no matter as Humans or Vampires using any class.

  13. #13
    Kine

    I understand where you are coming from. You also seem to be a person who is more about hate the player not the class, which I understand. I don't complain often as I hate to call anything premature.

    In this instance even Dead Sun Zenith has problems with it and used it at ESL level. I am merely pointing out the fact this composition is used at all levels currently which suggest it may need tweaking. By tweaking it may only need a louder or more specific noise for hellstrike to make this perfectly okay.

    I still disagree with you on the fact that vampires are required to take damage to do damage. Many vampire attacks can be done without being scene and can do damage. Airstrike, Chocking Haze, Hellstrike, Abyssal Bolt, this is not to say these are all the best options, but they can be done without taking damage from a human and without exposing yourself.

    While in general Humans do more damage and the game at highest level still tends to favor humans over vampire, Hellstrike could be easier to read.

    Lastly you are 100% correct that 2 players syncing really well together on another team can ruin the opposition with any class. My point just goes back to the current meta of 2 summoners.

    Right now the counters to Hellstrike summoner are not that many, and not all of us want to be locked into playing certain things just to counter a class. While Hunter and scout can easily deal with a summoner, the other classes not so much.

    Sorry for the wall of text.

  14. #14


    For me this is frustrating meta. Quite the opposite of what you claim to be. Twin Hellstrikes never seemed to have cause me much trouble - I just shoot them back.

  15. #15
    Well a couple of things about the video that I see.
    One summoner is using abyssal bolt.
    You had a leaver
    You guys were not going in together or with a game plan at all from the looks of it.

    I understand completely why that would be frustrating but almost none of the video is relevant to this thread IMO. I didn't see 2 summoners hellstriking people while the other two capitalized on it. All I saw was a bunch of very very random Vampire attacks going on with little to no coordination.

    Sorry I am just calling it how I see it.

    It was nice to mention 2 summoners are OP, as I never once said they were OP. All I ever said is the current Meta of Hellstriking Summoners is frustrating.

    Please Please Please just read the forums post a little more and see where I am coming from I am not claiming something is OP, I am not going in an direction to the extreme.

    I am sure you can sympathize with me when you get 5-8 games in a row and you feel like you are just playing the mole in a sick twisted version of whack-a-mole.

    Cheers!

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Arydious
    Right now the current Meta for vampires is running 2 summoners with Hellstrike. The other 2 classes really don't matter at this point.
    Originally Posted by Arydious
    I can't come up with a human comp that will counter this really.
    Originally Posted by Arydious
    Human pugging is a lot tougher than Vampire pugging. This current Vampire strategy is very easy to do and requires little to no interaction from your group members.
    Originally Posted by Arydious
    I just want to hear everyone else's thoughts on this as I am tired of doing match after match of fighting non-stop 2 or more summoners.

    1. Twin Hellstrike Meta
    - It simply isn't. It's not a meta because it is not as effective relative to other setups.
    - I've played many many matches against all sorts of comps and various stacks.
    - So far there has only ever been 2 setups that I find pugs had trouble dealing with
    - Twin Tyrants
    - Twin Dominate Mind + Backstab

    - These 2 comps are frustrating to deal with in solo queue simply because Humans lose their ability to play. They get chained CC'd from full health to death over and over again. Without ability to communicate what is happening and rally a counter plan, Human teams usually fall way behind on the scoreboard before they are able to rally.


    2. Countering Twin Hellstrikes

    - Summoners need line of sight to cast Hellstrikes.
    - If your argument is that Human players are not aware of where and when this window of opportunity exists to shoot them back then it has little to do with the Summoner class and more to do with the Human team.
    - You do not need communication and coordination to shoot rooftops.
    - You just need some of your guys looking at them.
    - In terms of damage per shot, Scouts deal the most hence is commonly assumed to be Summoner's natural counter.
    - Plus he has arrow volleys to deny rooftops and grappling hooks to gain direct line of sight

    Other than that, Hunter (blinding shot) + Scout (anything) + Prophet (Eldrich) is a one size fits all Human comp that will work against anything Vampires can come up with. 4th Human ideally runs a hard counter against Vamp's best player. Or if he is your carry, whatever class he's good at.


    3. Humans pugging is harder than Vamps pugging

    - This is where my 'It's the players not the class' comment applies.
    - There is a running misconception that everyone on the forum is selling
    - 'Humans are harder to play at lower levels because #teamwork'
    - Human teams have GUNS. You are bringing in automatic weapons to a fist fight. Logic cries each time Human teams fail.

    - At mid to high MMR matches, breaking down Human defenses is really hard. Those Human teams are usually solo queues themselves. How can this be the case if the following statement is true:

    Human pugging is a lot tougher than Vampire pugging
    - You yourself admitted in my video above, vamp team lacked coordination compared to their opponents. If this assumption that Human pugging is harder, then that situation could never exist.

    - The real reason why low level Humans fail so often is not the lack of teamwork. Team chemistry is the baseline. Without chemistry ALL teams will fail no matter what or who is on that team at ANY level.

    - Low level Human teams is hard because new and low MMR players have not yet understood the game. It isn't simply team work. They have not developed an understanding about what counters what. How best to play each class and equally as important - they may not have all the class and abilities needed unlocked.


    4. "I just want to hear everyone else's thoughts on this as I am tired of doing match after match of fighting non-stop 2 or more summoners."

    So here are my concluding thoughts on this topic

    2 Hellstrike Summoners is easy mode for me relative to other possible vamp compositions. Skilled Twin Tyrants who work well together is hell to random Human teams. Dominate mind especially on voice comm despite skepticism elsewhere on this forum is ULTRA effective. I have played against those first hand and I had trouble thinking up ways to counter them.

    When half the vamp team are dedicated Nukers and not much else, vamps lose one very important element in their composition. The ability to dislodge a dug in Human defense. According to your scenario where those 2 nukers only come down when it is safe to do so behind their brawlers then I can guarantee you this:

    Both of those 2 brawlers will pop in less than 5 seconds each time they engage.

    Humans can tank any amount of damage those 2 Summoners can dish out. In the time it takes for those nukers to kill off 1 Human exclusively from Hellstrikes, 2 vampire brawlers would have died twice each. That strategy is not feasible. Not to win anyways.

    If there ever was a vamp meta I would say its Summoner (Abyssal) + Tyrant (Ignore Pain) + Reaver (Smoke) with the 4th as carry using whatever he is best at. On a personal level - I consider Abyssal compulsory for any vamp team simply due to it's area denial properties. It is also the best initiator ability vamps got risk reward wise. Tyrant has an unmatched melee combo of any vampire and the closest vamps get to a confirmed kill. Smoke coz you need a way to protect your Tyrant and Smoke Reaver does it best. If vamp carry is another Tyrant - life is gonna be hard for Humans.

    If 2 Hellstrike Summoners can undo a Human team - I am very confident other compositions will achieve the same much easier. It isn't because Hellstrikes. Its coz Humans sucked.

    ---

    I'll close with a video. More interesting than the other one.

    2 x Summoner Hellstrikes.
    uNborn one of the more recognizable ESL players ran one of the Summoners.
    2nd Summoner was compelled to switch out 4 minutes into the round
    Didn't ask why but I'm guessing he got locked down too often and wanted something mobile.
    No clue why the Hunter stack. It just ended up that way. Prophet + Scout would've been better IMO

    Guess who won the round ?


  17. #17
    "Current Meta Frusterations!!"

    Posts like this will always be there. Even in the best balanced game some people will always think that something is OP. But in many cases they only don't know how to act against it.
    I don't say that Nosgoth is absolutly balanced, but it is on a good way.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by _Kine_
    1. Twin Hellstrike Meta
    - It simply isn't. It's not a meta because it is not as effective relative to other setups.

    Lies, all top eu teams are using this meta at the moment, its clearly more effective than anything else.
    - I've played many many matches against all sorts of comps and various stacks.
    - So far there has only ever been 2 setups that I find pugs had trouble dealing with
    - Twin Tyrants
    - Twin Dominate Mind + Backstab

    - These 2 comps are frustrating to deal with in solo queue simply because Humans lose their ability to play. They get chained CC'd from full health to death over and over again. Without ability to communicate what is happening and rally a counter plan, Human teams usually fall way behind on the scoreboard before they are able to rally.


    2. Countering Twin Hellstrikes

    - Summoners need line of sight to cast Hellstrikes. Not true, it can be cast over buildings and round walls (if aimed right)
    - If your argument is that Human players are not aware of where and when this window of opportunity exists to shoot them back then it has little to do with the Summoner class and more to do with the Human team. I disagree, its way to difficult to predict
    - You do not need communication and coordination to shoot rooftops.
    - You just need some of your guys looking at them.
    - In terms of damage per shot, Scouts deal the most hence is commonly assumed to be Summoner's natural counter. Summoners Counter scouts, not the other way round
    - Plus he has arrow volleys to deny rooftops and grappling hooks to gain direct line of sight

    Other than that, Hunter (blinding shot) + Scout (anything) + Prophet (Eldrich) is a one size fits all Human comp that will work against anything Vampires can come up with. 4th Human ideally runs a hard counter against Vamp's best player. Or if he is your carry, whatever class he's good at. Thats an aweful composition, explosive is needed for the AOE DPS, eldrich is not as strong as life leach


    3. Humans pugging is harder than Vamps pugging

    - This is where my 'It's the players not the class' comment applies.
    - There is a running misconception that everyone on the forum is selling
    - 'Humans are harder to play at lower levels because #teamwork'
    - Human teams have GUNS. You are bringing in automatic weapons to a fist fight. Logic cries each time Human teams fail.

    - At mid to high MMR matches, breaking down Human defenses is really hard. Those Human teams are usually solo queues themselves. How can this be the case if the following statement is true:



    - You yourself admitted in my video above, vamp team lacked coordination compared to their opponents. If this assumption that Human pugging is harder, then that situation could never exist.

    - The real reason why low level Humans fail so often is not the lack of teamwork. Team chemistry is the baseline. Without chemistry ALL teams will fail no matter what or who is on that team at ANY level.

    - Low level Human teams is hard because new and low MMR players have not yet understood the game. It isn't simply team work. They have not developed an understanding about what counters what. How best to play each class and equally as important - they may not have all the class and abilities needed unlocked.
    Considering your counter options, humans are strong because of the insane dps at range, the teamwork just happens to be easier when you can do it from 1/2 the map away


    4. "I just want to hear everyone else's thoughts on this as I am tired of doing match after match of fighting non-stop 2 or more summoners."

    Getting bored of it aswell

    So here are my concluding thoughts on this topic

    2 Hellstrike Summoners is easy mode for me relative to other possible vamp compositions. Skilled Twin Tyrants who work well together is hell to random Human teams. Dominate mind especially on voice comm despite skepticism elsewhere on this forum is ULTRA effective. I have played against those first hand and I had trouble thinking up ways to counter them.

    When half the vamp team are dedicated Nukers and not much else, vamps lose one very important element in their composition. The ability to dislodge a dug in Human defense. According to your scenario where those 2 nukers only come down when it is safe to do so behind their brawlers then I can guarantee you this:

    We use nukes to dislodge them, not because we can't (atleast in esl)

    Both of those 2 brawlers will pop in less than 5 seconds each time they engage. not when they engage with the summoners right after a successful hell strike

    Humans can tank any amount of damage those 2 Summoners can dish out. In the time it takes for those nukers to kill off 1 Human exclusively from Hellstrikes, 2 vampire brawlers would have died twice each. That strategy is not feasible. Not to win anyways.

    If its not viable, why is every top team using them?

    If there ever was a vamp meta I would say its Summoner (Abyssal) + Tyrant (Ignore Pain) + Reaver (Smoke) with the 4th as carry using whatever he is best at. On a personal level - I consider Abyssal compulsory for any vamp team simply due to it's area denial properties. It is also the best initiator ability vamps got risk reward wise. Tyrant has an unmatched melee combo of any vampire and the closest vamps get to a confirmed kill. Smoke coz you need a way to protect your Tyrant and Smoke Reaver does it best. If vamp carry is another Tyrant - life is gonna be hard for Humans.

    If 2 Hellstrike Summoners can undo a Human team - I am very confident other compositions will achieve the same much easier. It isn't because Hellstrikes. Its coz Humans sucked.

    ---

    I'll close with a video. More interesting than the other one.

    2 x Summoner Hellstrikes.
    uNborn one of the more recognizable ESL players ran one of the Summoners.
    2nd Summoner was compelled to switch out 4 minutes into the round
    Didn't ask why but I'm guessing he got locked down too often and wanted something mobile.
    No clue why the Hunter stack. It just ended up that way. Prophet + Scout would've been better IMO

    Guess who won the round ?

    So your argument is it didn't work in a pub game thus it must be bad? nice logic, unborn is skilled at aiming, as for strategy... well that's a different matter. Look at the video's (or streams) of the top eu teams, you will notice nearly every team uses 2 hell strikes + tyrant + senti/deceiver/reaver. that in its self is showing an issue with the balance

  19. #19
    Kine you are so all over the place with your posting I don't even know how to respond.

    You contradict yourself multiple types throughout this forum as it stands. While you bring up some good points at this point I believe you are just arguing to win and not exactly bringing a full constructive conversation to all of this.

    Thanks to everyone who has brought some feedback to this discussion thus far.

  20. #20
    @ Silent

    My feedback is limited to my observation and deduction exclusively from pub games which the original post referenced;

    The biggest problem is getting 4 humans together and coordinated, as I generally pug with another person
    In any game, knowledge transfer is top down meaning whatever the competitive scene decides as effective eventually makes it down to the general populace. HOW EFFECTIVE those meta remains in the hands of players with minimal coordination and team harmony however does not transfer, just the knowledge.

    Your observation at the competitive level does not necessarily invalidates what I see happen in random pub matches.

    --

    @ Arydious

    I don't discuss to win. Doesn't pay any bills. But topics like these and people willing to share their experience helps further the game for others. People like Silent taking time to read and respond to topics actually helps improve general understanding. Otherwise the only active topics we get in the forum are people complaining about wait times and such.

    I just want to hear everyone else's thoughts on this
    And so you have some of mine on topic.

    ---

    Originally Posted by SilentVirtue
    Look at the video's (or streams) of the top eu teams, you will notice nearly every team uses 2 hell strikes + tyrant + senti/deceiver/reaver. that in its self is showing an issue with the balance
    I only watch yours coz you're the only one who provide commentary and in English. And your team haven't begun using this comp yet. Or have you ?

  21. #21
    I also don't think summoners are a real issue. Perhaps in low skill level games. Summoner is an easy class to pick up and do good against below average skill level.

    Most vamp teams get stomped anyways in ESL, no matter what comp.

    Humans are OP. Hunter stack FTW. That's the real meta.

    In low level games there's no meta, just a cluster of wrong manoeuvers.


    @silent (Deadsun ?) watching a bunch of your team's vids, you guys will go 1 or no summoner in your ESL comps, but in the finals (#18) both vamp teams were decimated. Are you really pretending that summoner hellstrike is an issue (especially that your summoner uses bolt for the CC and area denial) ? Hellstrike is the same issue enrage + charge + ground slam combo does in low pub games. Baddies just fall for it.

    In the end, the game is pretty balanced, but favors humans a lil bit. Hunters specifically, with their CC and high sustained damage.

    KINE, you can watch Deadsun here : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5a...kEkaJFE44hjLzw


    One thing I'd agree with would be some kind of visual for the location where Hellstrike will hit. Other than that, it's a pretty balanced skill.

  22. #22
    Whoopdidoohah

    DeadSun actually lost to Iron First in the first match because they used the double summoner. In the Finals DeadSun stacked 4 Hunters and beat it but, they are an experienced practiced team, pugs couldn't of done that. Then Dead Sun used the souble summoner in their vampire composition to win it all.

    @Kine
    I have read and responded to almost all of your things. I didn't provide much of a response to the last way because Silent did and he has a lot more credibility than I do.
    I agree discussions are to improve the game. Most of the forums on well any forums are in general people just crying about things that are easy to beat. The difference here is I am not crying and just saying it's frustrating, which I can see many agree from low level MMR people to High MMR people

    Last for everyone who comes into a forum, when someone starts a subject it's best not to assume they are a low MMR. I notice many responses in here are just saying stuff about people in low MMR, when this is obviously not just a low MMR bracket. I can create a smurf account and see 2 summoners, I can watch ESL and see 2 Summoners.

    I am merely pointing out a trend. Another KEY word to all of this is "META" This means current meta, meaning it is still up for change Metas come and go all the time.

  23. #23
    Originally Posted by Whoopdidoohah
    @silent (Deadsun ?) watching a bunch of your team's vids, you guys will go 1 or no summoner in your ESL comps, but in the finals (#18) both vamp teams were decimated. Are you really pretending that summoner hellstrike is an issue (especially that your summoner uses bolt for the CC and area denial) ? Hellstrike is the same issue enrage + charge + ground slam combo does in low pub games. Baddies just fall for it.
    We havn't uploaded the latest matches yet but what happened was that since we had double elimination brackets for the first time (basically if you lose you get a second chance to come back) we decided to give it one more honest try to use a mixed comp, we tried everything from prophets to scouts to even double alchemists to deal with the minion and hellstrike spam. We got completely destroyed by the 2 summoners that Iron fist uses. Then on the vampire side we tried all sorts of different vampire combinations to no avail, the match resulted in a massive loss to a team that I feel we are atleast on par with most of the time.

    So what did we do when we got our "second chance" thanks to the double elim brackets? We swallowed our pride and used double summoner on the vampire side and quad hunters on the human side. We got one of our easiest wins in ESL so far, which is completely ridiculous because we've had trouble beating IF every single other week, but abusing the current flaws of hellstrike and abusing the fact that hunters are so allround and best at everything you'd want in a human class made it look like childsplay to beat basically one of the best ESL teams in the game.

    We have video proof of both the fact that hellstrike is broken and that stacking as many hunters as you possibly can is the one and only strategy you can rely on if your end goal is to win as much as possible.

    As for your argument that "baddies just fall for it" when it comes to hellstrike, I very rarely get hit by a hellstrike without seeing or hearing it coming towards me, what usually happens is that I spot it coming towards me but at that point it's just a dice roll as to where I should dodge since there are no indicators where it will actually land, sometimes I happen to roll into it and take the full 400 dmg. The summoner should not be rewarded for essentially missing the hellstrike but the human having no idea that you missplaced it and rolls into it.

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by HexMee
    quad hunters on the human side ... and that stacking as many hunters as you possibly can ... if your end goal is to win
    about the only honest thing to have come up in a class stacking discussion. and there is no solution. hunters are all rounders as it was meant to be, it works. having one non hunter on your 4th slot as a specific counter isn't out of the question however.

    that said I don't really buy into 4 hunters is more amazing than, for eg, 2 hunters + prophet + scout. I can see how it is more reliable but doubt by such a huge margin you can apply the word 'broken' onto it.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by _Kine_
    about the only honest thing to have come up in a class stacking discussion. and there is no solution. hunters are all rounders as it was meant to be, it works. having one non hunter on your 4th slot as a specific counter isn't out of the question however.

    that said I don't really buy into 4 hunters is more amazing than, for eg, 2 hunters + prophet + scout. I can see how it is more reliable but doubt by such a huge margin you can apply the word 'broken' onto it.
    They're meant to be all rounders, not experts on all areas.
    Hunters have the highest dps.
    Hunters have the highest damage/clip.
    Hunters have the best CC in the game.
    Hunters have the easiest to use, strongest, most reactive and reliable AoE in the game (explosive shot).

    I don't mind humans being stronger than vampires, same goes for counter-terrorists generally being stronger than terrorists in counter strike, it's never really been a huge issue. My problem is that ALL other classes for humans completely pale in comparison to hunters.
    What do we tell new people to focus on when they ask what's the best to start with? Hunter.
    What do I do when I feel like I'm underperforming in a top tier competitive match? I swap to hunter.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last