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Thread: Dead Sun, 32 minute video of the scrapped LoK sequel

Dead Sun, 32 minute video of the scrapped LoK sequel

  1. #51
    Nice post, thanks! I've read about that game being cancelled (and a shame, looks like something I would've enjoyed), but I never saw actual game play footage. It's been fun seeing some resemblances with what we currently have in Nosgoth (oh, if only Sentinels could fly like that!).

    The game also seems to have some similarities with Tomb Raider in terms of traversing the terrain and map and a few other things (unless both the games were built using similar engine). Not surprised considering both are from Square Enix.

    I haven't played LoK games, but this one (and especially after becoming a Nosgoth fan) is definitely something I'd get. Too bad it was cancelled, hopefully there'll be some title in the future though.

  2. #52
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel

    @Chulo: Raziel didn't have a third resurrection... o.o
    not yet he didn't

  3. #53
    Yeah, this is just all kinds of sad. There's butloads of references through out the video that just makes me squell inside. In the myth of the vampires the human's worshiped the sun for it's reproductive qualities and without it they fear it being the cause of the mass sterility. What is the symbol of the sun for the humans?...a "wheel". This immediately makes someone assume the wheel of fate was somehow altered since it is considered the engine of life...and that ghost vampire...that guy is such a kain tease it hurts.

  4. #54
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    It looks nothing like Legacy of Kain (if anything, looks much closer to Akuji the Heartless - it even shares similar premise of protagonist´s wife being murdered) and the fact it was very loosely inspired by the series in story just does not cut it for me. Glad it got cancelled.

    Agreed on the spectral realm is just...a shadowy time-travel thing, which has nothing to do with the one seen in previous games.

  5. #55
    Originally Posted by Therealrabban
    In the myth of the vampires the human's worshiped the sun for it's reproductive qualities
    I thought they just worshiped it because it wasn't there anymore. Something they've never seen but understand from history was important, and also the blight of vampires.

    Originally Posted by -Konf-
    I haven't played LoK games...
    You need to get off this forum right now and go play them. You're missing out!

    @Chulo: It would be impossible for him to be resurrected again. He's in the sword now. And how would the Hylden die anyway?


    I wonder how much material on Dark Prophecy is floating out in the internets...
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 24th Feb 2015 at 17:00. Reason: Merged double posts

  6. #56
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    The game also seems to have some similarities with Tomb Raider in terms of traversing the terrain and map and a few other things (unless both the games were built using similar engine). Not surprised considering both are from Square Enix.
    This is funny actually, as all the latest Tomb Raiders (since the Underworld trilogy and the 2013 game) use modified Gex engine, which all of previous LOK games ran on as well.

  7. #57
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Soul eaters, Nosgoth, winged vampires, dimensional shifting...
    You mean soul eating vampires who are both evolved to look like ancients and inexplicably pretty again and a spectral realm that looks nothing like in the previous games and has as much in common with LotR as it does with LoK?

    Oh yeah, you're right, it has a lot in common with Soul Reaver... too bad it's mixed and matched completely at random as if someone had decided "that Raziel concept looked cool, let's try that again".

  8. #58
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    I agree that this game would have had potential as its own series, something other than an LoK game. It looks like it needs its own back story, rich history, and broad reach over possible sequels to discover all of those ancient secrets.

    But as an LoK add-on, this is completely missing the mark. References feel like generic tack-ons, but the main problem is the entire world as presented. Soul Reaver works because it can certainly feel a perfect fit that this Road Warrior-esque, bleak, steam-punkish future would be the apocalyptic slow burn from damming the Pillars and killing the once lush world of Nosgoth. Dead Sun looks like it takes place on an entirely different planet. As far as style, we'd made comparisons before between Dead Sun's imagery and the Prince of Persia series, but this truly goes beyond in just how similar this is, especially to Prince of Persia '08. In fact, just look at a video of the gameplay here and you'll see this:



    Right off the bat, the claw hand down the wall is seen in the video. The Prince collects light orbs to help restore the world which look practically just like Gein getting "souls." The Previous games, soul eaters like Raziel, they had to, you know, actually *eat* souls. Gein now just walks through these stationary floating orb souls and instantly absorbs them. No visceral violent act of an actual vampire in need of sustenance. No pain and panic on an actual soul trying to escape. Nope, just glowing orbs, gotta catch 'em all! Elika also provides in the game an energy trail for the path to follow that's very much just like the energy trail you see in Dead Sun on where to go for training, and those daises you stop on are just like the ones for each power the prince has in PoP '08.

    Then, there's the art style, which minus the addition of an almost painterly, illustrative look PoP '08 had, Nosgoth in that game feels very much more at home in the Persia '08 than anything we've seen of Nosgoth before. I mean anything. If the world was restored in the past, that would not account for the entire feel of the planet changing, down to the fauna.

    Then, of course, Spectral. Spectral Realm has been thoroughly defined in three games. Its properties, its look, its rules. Nothing physical goes and it does not show a world of the past, still bustling about out of shadows -- what is up with the rotating platform? It does not show echoes of living humans centuries before. It shows a warped version of the world you just left. Perhaps some of it is a showing of past physical elements, like a stairway that was once there, or an opening before a cave sealed it off, but this is all over the place. Some things are locked in Spectral and can't move, but the aforementioned platform and the swaying grass and water, that still moves just fine. Where are the Sluagh? Where are any of the actual floating numerous souls locked in misery? Escaping Spectral also was a feat that Raziel had to take effort to do. Even when he had the portals from the EG, it took effort. When without those portals, he had to find a corpse to possess, pulling himself through into the world like ripping a new life into a newborn. There was weight to it, a labor of the mind and body to endure crossing through the realms. This is just like nothing at all. That is not the Spectral Realm of the Legacy of Kain series.

    Then, they toss in the Reaver, which looks very different, but still recognizable as an attempt to be it, or a sword almost just like it. Even if the world was restored in the past by Kain, did that somehow nullify all of Soul Reaver's events? Because there are allusions to the vampires blotting out the sun, which would be Kain's empire doing it. So, the Reaver was destroyed in SR1. Anyway, there's a ton here wrong. Raziel only looked blue because he woke up in Spectral and thought that's what he looked like, due to the "endless twilight of the Underworld." This vampire is nothing like that. His vampire soul is tethered to his body while Gein, the human, is stuck somehow inside of it. Why does the vampire soul version look more human, still a vampire (check out the fangs), yet his body is dark blue skinned? Why, if that's his body how he makes it every time he enters the world, would that body now be something different than how he obviously perceives himself, which is clearly more human? The Ancients were blue-skinned, but never that super dark shade of blue. The story is also boiling down to restoring the ability for humans and vampires to what, breed again? If Kain were to be present, he'd be rolling over in his throne room. This is what his great legacy boils down to? And yes, the random vampire hunter with the distracting boob, also scarred, who apparently loves to discus male anatomy, and the cursing, and the contemporary writing in general, all equal pieces to a game that is meant to be something else. I am sorry for those working on this that it was canceled, but it should not be an LoK game, in any respect. It should have been its own series, its own world. Riding on the coat-tails of the series in name only, just for the recognition, doesn't do this, or the series, any favors.

    Edit: one more thing regarding the homage to Raziel being tossed into the Abyss. It's not a form of reverence to that moment. It's a trivialization. Raziel suffered "an eternity" down there of torment; his body would not have dissolved completely for centuries. It took him that long to awake from the pain and to return to the world he left. This guy's body disintegrated almost instantly to the bones. He returns moments later and faces the vampire hunters who tossed him into the drink. The vampire might be able to recover faster, but the human experiencing this maddening pain, he should have been completely destroyed by it, mentally, for centuries. Raziel was an evolved vampire. All of the vampries of Kain's lineage, their bodies would not dissolve almost immediately. You drain water in places in SR1 and the corpses revive, with their souls now turned be vampire wraiths, so they feast on souls instead of blood. It showed the resiliency of the body to endure that end and of the extreme pain that must have been for the one suffering it.

    Now? Eh, just another annoyance, I guess. The form Raziel takes as a wraith in SR1 then does dissolve more quickly when entering water, before he gains water immunity. But he no longer suffered the dissolving of muscle and everything. It was more an instant discarding of that "fragile matter" he took the form of to go Spectral. This is like, again, they don't have a proper handle on the properties of what they're trying to show.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 24th Feb 2015 at 11:21.

  9. #59
    Have to admit as it goes for gameplay and mechanic wise that game could be fun and looks nice, but as it goes for the lore or LoK franchise I'm glad this didn't show up it was a good call to cancel and scrap it, turning into to Nosgoth.

  10. #60
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    I watched this last night but have only got around to posting now...

    Though the game looked ok on its own it really doesn't look like it fits in the world of Nosgoth at all by like one bit. That said I do like the colours, shrubbery, shifting effects...if it was a different game and not to do with this IP then it might have been ok but as LoK no thank you very much!!!!!

    The story from what they shared just seemed like recycled old games plumped into one, just really uneventful in the language and just general not character driven stuff (though only a snippet I understand) it just seemed bland and lifeless.

    The combat and movements seemed ok like it could be fun to you know fight or just generally adventure around stuff...but even that in a way seemed naff to an extent, nothing original.

    In short, as LoK game goes no thank you sir!!! I'd rather smack my head against a wall. I am pleased SE decided to cancel it before the IP became so meh.

  11. #61
    A conversation about [removed by moderator]. In what was supposed to be the revival of LoK



    We exchange flowery shakespearean prose, that even BO2 managed to maintain, for conversation about [removed by moderator]. Yeah. Never have I been more glad to see a game canceled. Could this be a decent unrelated game? Yeah. Could this be a good LoK game? No bloody chance in hell, not with those story and dialog - at the very [removed by moderator] least.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 24th Feb 2015 at 15:28. Reason: Please post within the Terms of Use, even when describing a video that is not
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  12. #62
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    Ygdrasel, please do not double post. If you need to quote more than one person, use the multiquote button under each of their posts, then hit the quote button and you'll have the text all in one reply.

  13. #63
    Originally Posted by RainaAudron
    This is funny actually, as all the latest Tomb Raiders (since the Underworld trilogy and the 2013 game) use modified Gex engine, which all of previous LOK games ran on as well.
    This is something, though, that was bound to happen, especially after a ten-year hiatus. The status quo for video games change based on whatever's popular in the market. A platform-based LoK game modeled after the old ones would not have sold. Just as the Legacy of Kain series transitioned from top-down 2D to sandbox 3D between BO1 and SR1 to fit the developments in software, the series would need to change formats to stay relevant. I mean, think about it - there are some aspects of Soul Reaver that seem to serve a function to the game, rather than the story (switches, giant blocks left scattered around, jewels that augment your abilities). The evolution of the Spectral Realm in Dead Sun is a great example of this. Let's forget for a moment that the Spectral Realm has been altered in nearly every game (from BO1 to Defiance, it's seen various incarnations, limitations, and - save for the Sluagh - the varying creatures that inhabit it). The Spectral Realm serves a purpose to the Dead Sun game because it facilitates the player in crossing the map and creates interesting visuals - it has in every game since SR1. It's an element of the game that is the duty of the writers to romanticize - and so far, that's been done.

    Before I get too off topic, though, let me get back to the point. The bottom line is that the game needs to appeal to more than just a niche audience of die-hard LoK fans - otherwise the company's not making money and the devs get paid on a tighter budget. And the only way to do that is to emulate whatever's popular in the industry.

    Tomb Raider remained relevant because it moved away from a puzzle-based platformer to what is essentially an amalgamation of a Gears of War-styled shooter and an Assassin's Creed-styled combat and navigation system. If it stuck to the same formula, it wouldn't have sold as well, and big game companies can't have that if they want to keep producing content.

  14. #64
    Originally Posted by Ysanoire
    inexplicably pretty again
    Hardly inexplicable. The degeneration of vampires was the result of Kain's corruption which Raziel eliminated at Defiance's end.

  15. #65
    Originally Posted by Acambogenous
    Before I get too off topic, though, let me get back to the point. The bottom line is that the game needs to appeal to more than just a niche audience of die-hard LoK fans - otherwise the company's not making money and the devs get paid on a tighter budget. And the only way to do that is to emulate whatever's popular in the industry.
    What part of it includes totally abandoning the story element that made the series beloved in the first place? Here are the counterexamples for you: Hitman Absolution and Thief. Both also followed the more popular games on the market, Thief made Garrett into a completely different character, 47 tried to do the ever popular Jason Statham movie formula of "A bald brutish action guy has to deliver a girl somewhere and has to protect her during the trip", both abandoned open level structure of their predecessors for a more linear approach - and did they work? No, they didn't. The fans weren't pleased and the crowd couldn't care less. Besides, ripping off what's popular is totally not the problem with us hardcore LoKers. Here's a thing: you want to make a LoK game with Arkham-like combat? Be my guest, let's be frank here people, the combat was not why we played those games. Why we DID play those games, however, were the story, voice acting and dialog and in that demo the story is filled with plot holes and inconsistencies with established lore, voice acting is mediocre at best, while the dialog is utterly abysmal, abandoning the high class for high crass. Why even bother with putting LoK name on it? Again, that would be better by any other name. But they consciously chose to put LoK name there and thus I, as a LoK fan, am in my full right to criticize it for not being true to LoK. And praise them for having enough sense to cancel it.
    Hardly inexplicable. The degeneration of vampires was the result of Kain's corruption which Raziel eliminated at Defiance's end.
    Raziel eliminated Kain's corruption, not corruption as a whole. He healed Kain, not all the vampires of Nosgoth - who, by the way, were separated from Kain by good two thousand years.
    AKA RT on Steam and Count D on old Eidos forums

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by JanusDominus
    in that demo the story is filled with plot holes and inconsistencies with established lore
    ...Where?

  17. #67
    Every...
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    ...Where
    Let's see... from when does the Reaver look like this? What's it doing out there anyway, isn't it supposed to be in the Avernus Cathedral, waiting for Young Kain to take it? From when is there sun worshipping in Nosgoth that predates Vampire times? The only established organized religions in Nosgoth we know of were 1) The Elder God worship of the Ancient vampires 2) The cult of Hash-ak-gik 3) Whatever that Ankh thing was in BO2. If there was any sun worship in Nosgoth, we'd know of that by now. From when can vampires go to spectral and out of it at will? Even in Defiance, without the planar portals, Raziel still needed a corpse to possess. By the way, from when does Spectral allow you to see the past? Boy, that ability would save Raziel a metric F-ton of time in SR2. That's just from ten minutes, I didn't have the guts to watch further, because that discussion of male sexual organs made my brain vomit inside of my skull. It is then it became clear, that the game was beyond redemption.
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  18. #68
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    I'll try to write more about the game and comment some earlier posts later. Now just one thing.
    Originally Posted by JanusDominus
    Let's see... from when does the Reaver look like this? What's it doing out there anyway, isn't it supposed to be in the Avernus Cathedral, waiting for Young Kain to take it?
    It's worse than that. This supposedly takes place ages after SR1, so the Reaver shouldn't exist at all.

  19. #69
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    Originally Posted by JanusDominus
    Every...


    From when is there sun worshipping in Nosgoth that predates Vampire times?
    As noted, this is taking place in the far future. In SR1, there is sun worshiping imagery in the Drowned Abbey. That appears to be what they're going for in their history. That part is one of the few things that could be plausible here...

    Originally Posted by Paradoks_db
    I'll try to write more about the game and comment some earlier posts later. Now just one thing.

    It's worse than that. This supposedly takes place ages after SR1, so the Reaver shouldn't exist at all.
    Exactly. Even if Kain healed things in the past, it didn't wipe out all of history, as they allude to the vampires blotting out the sun ages ago, which means Kain's vampires still exist to do this. So, events of SR1 should still be in place, unless the timeline cherry-picked what stayed and what didn't. It's possible that the sword is only styled like the Soul Reaver, like maybe someone found a stash of Vorador's unused blades Whichever the reason, it's just not going to be a good one, I am sure...

  20. #70
    Originally Posted by JanusDominus
    What part of it includes totally abandoning the story element that made the series beloved in the first place?
    None of it does. There's no telling what kind of story this game would have had because barely anything was featured. What was released was a 30-minute game of, not the finished product but, the PRE-ALPHA. The game hadn't even gone into the Alpha stage of development, meaning that there was TONS of stuff that had to be fine-tuned, including the progression of the story. Even by the choppiness of the first few cutscenes (with Asher voicing over loads of plot), you can tell this was a rough cut. This and plenty other elements were no doubt going to have been fixed for the final product.

    Think about how far you are into Blood Omen when you kill the brigands that killed Kain. If you look at solely that section of the game, it wouldn't be a story worth telling. Dead Sun more than likely had hours and hours of plot and character development before its story unfolded. To say the developers "abandoned the story element" is an unfair judgment because the story was barely fleshed out.

  21. #71
    There was still that broken soul reaver at William's tomb. Maybe someone found a way to fix it or they fix it in this game.

  22. #72
    Originally Posted by Acambogenous
    None of it does. There's no telling what kind of story this game would have had because barely anything was featured. What was released was a 30-minute game of, not the finished product but, the PRE-ALPHA. The game hadn't even gone into the Alpha stage of development, meaning that there was TONS of stuff that had to be fine-tuned, including the progression of the story. Even by the choppiness of the first few cutscenes (with Asher voicing over loads of plot), you can tell this was a rough cut. This and plenty other elements were no doubt going to have been fixed for the final product.

    Think about how far you are into Blood Omen when you kill the brigands that killed Kain. If you look at solely that section of the game, it wouldn't be a story worth telling. Dead Sun more than likely had hours and hours of plot and character development before its story unfolded. To say the developers "abandoned the story element" is an unfair judgment because the story was barely fleshed out.
    We had a revenge story that hinted at something more being at play. Here we have a protagonist that has no goal, clumsy foreshadowing and horrific dialog. And it doesn't seem to me like the writing was in the early stages.
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  23. #73
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    Originally Posted by magus448
    There was still that broken soul reaver at William's tomb. Maybe someone found a way to fix it or they fix it in this game.
    It's always "repaired" by Raziel 30 years before BO1. After that the blade needs to be placed in Avernus.

  24. #74
    Originally Posted by JanusDominus
    Raziel eliminated Kain's corruption, not corruption as a whole. He healed Kain, not all the vampires of Nosgoth - who, by the way, were separated from Kain by good two thousand years.

    What's it doing out there anyway, isn't it supposed to be in the Avernus Cathedral, waiting for Young Kain to take it?

    If there was any sun worship in Nosgoth, we'd know of that by now.

    From when can vampires go to spectral and out of it at will?

    By the way, from when does Spectral allow you to see the past?
    Right, he healed Kain's corruption, which is itself what corrupted all of his 'children'...Him being the only one left, we can assume the undead lineage of these new ones can be traced back to him. So any he made after Defiance would not degenerate like the others.

    This game is far in the future. Why would the Reaver still need to wait in Avernus? That's all been done. Who says this is even that same Reaver?

    Yes, we'd know of sun worship by now...Except this is an unexplored future era so we wouldn't. Humans are basically only seen in the Soul Reaver era, scattered, hiding, nearly extinct...Obviously no time to be bothering with religion and ceremony and all that. This era has humans rebuilt to a degree, so they have time for that.

    The vampire ability to shift realms would undoubtedly have been explained in a way that does not break lore and is thus a really flimsy complaint at best. Consider that these vampires are likely traceable back to Kain. The last we see of Kain, Raziel disperses the wraith blade - his own soul - into Kain himself. It's hardly farfetched that he might adopt or pass on some of Raziel's wraith gifts from that process. For one possible explanation of many.

    The Spectral realm operates bizarrely here. Granted. But hardly a game-ruining thing.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 24th Feb 2015 at 20:47.

  25. #75
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    I actually like this version of the spectral realm. It seems like the perfect way for the new guy to witness the past events that transpired after Defiance, especially Kain laying waste to the savage beasts of his 1st empire. What if the wraith is a remnant from that empire, a wraith of the Razielim that was originally slain in his clan's purge following the opening of Soul Reaver?

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