Thread: The role of dodge roll

The role of dodge roll

  1. #1

    The role of dodge roll

    So im relatively new to the game but have lurked for a while. Whenever human team do well i cant help but notice it just seems like they stand there and take the beating but simply do more damage and thats why they win. When i play human I try to dodge away from enemies melee attacks to not get hit, dodge sideways during a faraway reaver leap ect. What I have found to be the case is that dodge roll is purely cosmetic and contains zero tactical value. Testing alongside a team mate only sprinting actually results in him getting there first If I regularly dodge roll. I have been picked up by sentinels, thrown by tyrants, and leapt onto by reavers all while in mid roll animation.

    At present this is a much needed mechanic that humans simply dont have. I encourage everyone to play the tutorial and go to the vampire part where it has the human dodge rolling in order to evade you. Its hard a hell to hit that guy because his dodge roll actually works and make him immune for a second while hes rolling. His hitbox also moves with him, which currently is NOT THE CASE for players. I have tested this and been melee attacked while my character rolled forward and behind a vampire only to have him melee attack forward where I WAS and i will collaps behind him, seemingly from a heart attack or stroke.

    At present the lack of this mechanic makes the game feel like the meta is to minimize your loss as a human and then win as hard as you can as a vamp to make up for the nearly guaranteed loss. Why? because once a vampire closes with a human, theres nothing they can do. Mistakenly they have given vampires the escape mechanics as well as the gap closing mechanics. Humans have to stand there and take it and hope their dps prevails, which often is not the case because one melee attack causes like 200 damage and one crossbow bolt is 75 (although ive never actually hit for that amount outside of point blank range).

    What is the point of having dodge roll? presently its a coolpoints move, though id like to know what people opinion of this is. My experience is that I will dodge left and immediately get hit mid roll by a melee swing because the roll is neither far enough, fast enough, contains no immunity period, and vampire melee's lunge effect more than negates it.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Beskern
    At present the lack of this mechanic makes the game feel like the meta is to minimize your loss as a human and then win as hard as you can as a vamp to make up for the nearly guaranteed loss.
    As you play more you'll realise that meta will change. As Human players improve on their decision making, situational awareness, positioning, crowd control and most importantly aim - you will notice that the scales will shift pretty dramatically and it will become increasingly more difficult to play as a Vampire.

    Now, back to dodge roll. A lot of people complain about it saying that it doesn't negate the damage, which I think is a common misunderstanding because people take the word "dodge" quite literally. I think Humans would be very overpowered if they had a way to completely avoid damage while in melee range (which is where Vampires are supposed to dominate by design).

    Like you said, the general benefit of using dodge roll as Humans is to avoid Vampire initiation skills or to get out of the way of area-of-effect abilities to negate some damage. Doesn't work all the time based on how the situations play out, but worth trying. Also, a tip: as a Human, try using melee+dodge to increase the distance of your roll (really helps to get out of AoE).

    In melee range dodge roll becomes a bit more tricky to use. If a Vampire is just mashing basic melee attacks in your face you might as well unload a full clip into them. If your rolls are ineffective (in a situation where a Vampire can aim and turn around to hit you in the direction where you're rolling) - you're missing out on damage that you could be otherwise doing.

    However, in higher-level play you'll notice that Vampires will be using melee attack into dodge in order to throw your aim off and deal damage to you. In that situation timing your dodge can help you quite a bit. Here's an example (will be a bit messy, but bear with me):

    I play a Prophet and I have a Reaver that is in melee range and just hit me in the face. Next thing he does is dodge behind my back to avoid eating bullets and throw my aim off. If I time my dodge in the opposite direction at the same time and turn around while rolling - we both will be standing opposite one another, except that the Reaver will be out of range of hitting me. He will need to attack and dodge again in order to close the gap, which gives me valuable time to land 2-3 shots on a target, whose movement direction will be relatively easy to predict. Then the cycle continues.

    Of course it's an ideal scenario and in most cases neither you nor a Vampire will be at max health when the duel starts. However, I personally find that sort of "dancing" in one-on-one situations quite effective to prolong my survivability and ability to do more damage before I die (if I know I will lose the duel) /or buy time for my teammates to come and finish off a kill.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Beskern
    Testing alongside a team mate only sprinting actually results in him getting there first If I regularly dodge roll.
    Dodge isn't intended to out-run sprint. Dodge is for dodging attacks, sprint is for running away.

    As for the immunity, I hear this suggestion a lot among newer players but honestly it would be a terrible idea. Imagine how difficult it would be to land a Kidnap if all a human would have to do is roll when they hear the Sentinel's screech and be guaranteed to be immune to it. Also, if a vampire manages to keep tracking you mid-swing, doesn't he deserve to have that swing hit? A human's shots will still connect if they can keep track of the vampire through not just rolls, but even jumping through the air while Pouncing, etc.

    Anyway, as Konf said; Dodge may not be an end-all defensive ability but it's fine as it is, if not a bit broken with the whole Melee+Dodge stuff. Just learn to use it intelligently and you'll find it is a valuable tool indeed.

  4. #4
    The move needs to be undodgable in order to to compensate for how hard kidnap is to steer. If you added dodge immunity, you'd need to make the flight much easier to control. And nobody wants that.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 1st Dec 2014 at 16:23.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  5. #5
    The roll isn't really for avoiding melee at all. But if you time it right you can dodge vampire special skills like pounce and charge.

    Originally Posted by Beskern
    Humans have to stand there and take it and hope their dps prevails, which often is not the case because one melee attack causes like 200 damage and one crossbow bolt is 75 (although ive never actually hit for that amount outside of point blank range).
    Humans have to make sure to damage vampires at a range before they get to them. That's why they have ranged weapons. Yes, once a vampire closes with a human it's gonna look rather bleak for the human, and that's intended.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Beskern
    What I have found to be the case is that dodge roll is purely cosmetic and contains zero tactical value.
    This is very wrong. Time your dodges to avoid charged-melee attacks and various vampire skills. Just last night I juked 2 Reavers and a Tyrant for a full 30 seconds with only dodge-rolls and a single bola ... ended up scoring 2 kills and almost had the third, so I know for a fact that dodge-rolls can work far more effectively than you claim.

    Just don't try to dodge-roll regular melees at point blank range, because that won't work.

  7. #7
    I've tested this pretty heavily over the course of a few nights and my findings are the same as when I started playing. A lot of other plays are saying that dodge roll is fine as is, which I can't imagine is intended because it serves no utility to the human and actually benefits the vampires by interrupting your realod and abilities. Currently you are better served to Sprint in the direction of your choice than to dodge roll. All of my findings are at 30-50 ping so let's rule out lag as an excuse for the following tests.

    Dodge roll doesn't prevent vampire ability activation onto you. I've thoroughly tested this and it's the case. Your hit box seems to stay at your point of origin until it is complete with the animation. I've dodge rolled into doorways from an alleyway to avoid pounced and kidnaps and each time I dodge into the doorway I'm teleported back to the alley is if dodge was interuppted by vampire abilities. I initially ruled this out to be lag until it was consistently happening at 30 ping.

    Unless you know it's coming and you preemptively use it, it WILL NOT SAVE YOU. This is clearly not intended because it's too easy for vampires to get into close range for dodge roll to not provide short term escape . Furthermore it is less responsive than the vampires roll, it has a longer "cooldown" period buy about half a second. So I really fail to see how this ability has a place in the game. It needs serious reworking because it currently hurts you to use it more than it helps. If it had immunity during the middle or beginning of the action it would be usefull.

    If there is a use for this that I'm not seeing or a dev quote somewhere that indicates that dodge roll is supposed to function a certain way then please share. Having a functional dodge roll isn't going to break the game for humans, it's going to improve the user experience from the current one.

  8. #8
    I don't understand how your "testing" has shown dodge roll to be ineffective; I promise you, they can be used to dodge attacks/abilities. I've done so hundreds of times.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Kingston ON, Canada
    Posts
    1,147
    Dodge is in a good spot. Knowing when to use it is the biggest trick, and is something that you're only going to get with practice. You primarily want to use it as a spacing tool and getting out of AoE's. It does move you a bit faster than sprinting or running, but its cooldown keeps it from being as good as sprint over a long distance.
    In-game: Sirshua, being a sir everywhere.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Beskern
    Dodge roll doesn't prevent vampire ability activation onto you. I've thoroughly tested this and it's the case. Your hit box seems to stay at your point of origin until it is complete with the animation. I've dodge rolled into doorways from an alleyway to avoid pounced and kidnaps and each time I dodge into the doorway I'm teleported back to the alley is if dodge was interuppted by vampire abilities. I initially ruled this out to be lag until it was consistently happening at 30 ping.
    It does if you time it right. I dodge out of the way of Pounces, Sweeping Kicks, Kidnaps, Charges, etc, etc, all the time.

    I don't know what kind of testing you've done but I think there were flaws in your testing method.

  11. #11
    I would like to say that dodge roll is definitely not 'useless', however I think the representation of the mechanic sends the wrong message to new players.

    As has been stated previously, the primary purpose of dodge roll is to evade vampire special abilities (e.g. charge and kidnap). It can also be used to sometimes dodge vampire charge attacks depending on a variety of factors, including player spacing and the vampire's ability to aim. Lastly, as has been stated, at higher level play it has a more subtle use in melee confrontations where when a vampire uses dodge to throw off the human player's aim, the human player can dodge in the opposite direction in order to create some space and give him the opportunity to land another hit or two before the vampire closes the gap again.

    All of that said, from my experience observing new players, and my own memories of being a newbie, the dodge mechanic seems to send a strong message that it should be used in order to attempt to dodge standard vampire melee attacks. With the way the game mechanics are, this does not work at all. I often find myself telling new players that they should stop trying to dodge in melee and just try to put out as much damage as they can.

    In conclusion, the dodge mechanic definitely has uses, however the mechanic as it is introduced, sends a misleading message about how it should be used to new players.

  12. #12
    I don't know that it's really misleading though, that's simply new players learning how the game works. It doesn't (or at least shouldn't) take long to figure out it won't save you from in your face melee.

  13. #13
    I read about melee into dodge from a pro/guide guy and it gets you much further in a fairly short amount of time... I've been practicing using i in games...you get a decend distance, enough at least to turn in order to cc and/or fight. It might end up being one of those odd mechanics that you just gotta learn... All games have them, from Smash Brothers to DotA.

  14. #14
    If they change rolling, I'll cut them.

    No but seriously, it's fine where it's at. As you get higher you'll notice that good players are actually stronger as humans than vampires. Bad players have an easier time using vampire abilities with little or no thought and then mashing M1. Just learn when to dodge roll and more importantly, in what direction.

    Oh, and only really bad humans just stand there. When I'm getting focused, I kite the vampires. It's why I use the increased movement speed perk on my scout. A lot of vampires tunnel vision so damn hard that I just sprint and roll that by the time they actually land a hit, they're all dead on account of my team mate's gun fire.

    I'm a Solo Yolo Queue Hero and I carry my teams pretty hard as a vampire and way harder as a human.
    signature image
    NOSGOTH IMMORTAL VET // HEAVY HITTERS GROUP // NOSGOTH CBT

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    14
    @Blastin_Foolz one problem with saying that "really bad humans just stand there".. I have rolled away as a vampire attack animation has started (before they are near me/actively slashing me), whirled the camera around to shoot them... And noticed, from several feet away, the "hit" blood splash effect before I take damage. Note that the entire time the vampire is not actually NEAR me- he attacks where I WAS after I had already left the spot, and damages me anyway.

    The dodgeroll needs some measure of immunity frames. Not much, but they need some, because there is no way to counter a melee-range vampire as of present.

    Originally Posted by SiD_Green
    I don't know that it's really misleading though, that's simply new players learning how the game works. It doesn't (or at least shouldn't) take long to figure out it won't save you from in your face melee.
    Okay, so if it can't actually evade anything other than AoE/The Sentinel's entire gameplay presence, that makes it useless in... ~90% of engagements? Why have a dodge mechanic for humans that isn't on-par with the vampire's mechanics (a vampire can more effectively dodge than a human, even up-close, and I behoove you to show me otherwise) if there's no balance to it?

    Originally Posted by DesolatedMaggot
    It does if you time it right. I dodge out of the way of Pounces, Sweeping Kicks, Kidnaps, Charges, etc, etc, all the time.

    I don't know what kind of testing you've done but I think there were flaws in your testing method.
    I can corroborate Beskern's tests. I've been taken damage from across the room because my hitbox node has not finished transition until the dodgeroll ends.

    Originally Posted by PencileyePirate

    Just don't try to dodge-roll regular melees at point blank range, because that won't work.
    90% of vampires will spam point-blank melee because they know you can't escape it. So yeah, it obviously doesn't work at point-blank range. Which is a problem, because in the event of a vampire committing on you, if your team has lackluster map awareness (aka "most low-level players"), you will have absolutely NO chance of survival. Lore-accurate, but freaking broken from a gameplay standpoint.
    Last edited by Lord_Aevum; 5th Dec 2014 at 19:51. Reason: quadruple posting; please use edit function

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Abacrius
    Okay, so if it can't actually evade anything other than AoE/The Sentinel's entire gameplay presence, that makes it useless in... ~90% of engagements? Why have a dodge mechanic for humans that isn't on-par with the vampire's mechanics (a vampire can more effectively dodge than a human, even up-close, and I behoove you to show me otherwise) if there's no balance to it?

    ...

    90% of vampires will spam point-blank melee because they know you can't escape it. So yeah, it obviously doesn't work at point-blank range. Which is a problem, because in the event of a vampire committing on you, if your team has lackluster map awareness (aka "most low-level players"), you will have absolutely NO chance of survival. Lore-accurate, but freaking broken from a gameplay standpoint.
    Dodge-roll works fairly well for evading charge-melee attacks (which happen in a LOT of engagements.) Also when a vampire is point-blank spamming melee in your face the better option is to bola/knife/hex while shooting him to death ... and alchs have flamewall with blind or lightbomb. There are plenty of opportunities to survive.

    TLDR: nothing's broken about dodge-roll.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Abacrius
    90% of vampires will spam point-blank melee because they know you can't escape it. So yeah, it obviously doesn't work at point-blank range. Which is a problem, because in the event of a vampire committing on you, if your team has lackluster map awareness (aka "most low-level players"), you will have absolutely NO chance of survival. Lore-accurate, but freaking broken from a gameplay standpoint.
    First of all, stop making up statistics. Secondly, this would not be a problem even if dodging were as useless as you claim. By which I mean, humans have mapwide attack range. If a vampire has gotten in your face and proceeds to spam melee attacks, he should have taken some damage from afar already, and you can out dps him. Or a teammate can help you do so. Or you can use an ability to stop him.

    In other words, I don't see why the game should be balanced for players that haven't even learned the game yet, or are just bad.

  18. #18
    im a new player

    i have successfully used dodge roll to dodge reaver pounce attacks, as well as sentinal kidnaps.

    this game is very team based, at no point is a player, thru skill or abilities, able, or should be able, to deal with the opposiing team at a disadvantage of numbers.

    dodge roll is appropriate.

    further, its true that right now humans are more powerful then vamps when players get good, i dealt with such a thing last night. even on my tyrant, coming around a corner to surprise, while they were fighting my teamates...i couldnt even get off a charge>smash attack combo without dying, i had to just charge>pop damage resistance, and get ready to flee.