Thread: What should EM do with Thief?

What should EM do with Thief?

  1. #26
    cool
    steam says that i "played it 2 hours en 12 minutes for being precise.
    i wasn't talking about training.... im a gamer who goes slowly.
    whatever, it changes nothing to what i said before. i stopped it because i didn't feel free to go where i wanted, jump, go on a crate, ... all these things that make me feel like a real thief. and i never have the desire to "play" it again. but its my problem no?
    and for me (just for me ok ) the essence of Thief's series is freedom (in gameplay).
    i never talk about things that i dont know about the game like story.
    the problem is certainly that i was waiting for this game since so many years and i was expecting too much... i still do not understand why you buy a licence of a game with a unique style and want to make something different in gameplay...
    like if you do a reboot of batman and he can only fly when theres a green light on the screen.... its strange and its a nonsense. what is sure today its that if eidos makes another Thief, i will not buy it
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  2. #27
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    Originally Posted by garvin
    steam says that i "played it 2 hours en 12 minutes for being precise.
    So you were exaggerating? Naughty.

    whatever, it changes nothing to what i said before. i stopped it because i didn't feel free to go where i wanted, jump, go on a crate, ... all these things that make me feel like a real thief.
    So did you feel like a real thief when you played Deadly Shadows? There were a lot of similar restrictions and changes, no?
    Examples, off the top of my head, include no rope arrows, dummy food, no swimming, you couldn't move freely inside the shop areas, the pagan-speech changed for the worse, some items were removed like speed potions, holding weapons no longer effected your visibility, no control over Garrett's arm when wielding sword or blackjack, restrictive one-strike dagger attack, the change in the leaning mechanics, ragdoll physics introduced, loading zones that froze your movement, no traditional style mission briefings, AI respawning...etc etc.

    i still do not understand why you buy a licence of a game with a unique style and want to make something different in gameplay...

    ALL the games changed in one way or another, no? I listed only a few examples above; there are more.

    what is sure today its that if eidos makes another Thief, i will not buy it

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  3. #28
    Eidos should return to a more traditional control scheme, greatly increase the size of the level zones, and add in proper audio propagation if they're going to continue with the series. Better writing almost goes without saying, but I feel like the awkward story was a result of the game (allegedly) being stripped apart and stitched back together a few times during development. So I don't think it will be too tough to improve on that.

    If at least those few things get done, it would make a world of difference.

  4. #29
    I think EM should just go all in on a reboot, and just make an updated version of the original games. They tried coming up with something new and original, and it got a lukewarm response. Now they should just bring back Stephen Russell and Keepers and Hammerites/Pagans and everything else. it would create some good industry buzz and hype, and would win over a lot of old school fans in the process. I heard complaints that all the people who gave Thief bad reviews were all old school Thief fans. Well, think of what kind of reviews you'd get if you made an effort to please them.

    I'm guessing something like this would fare better than this last title did. How could it not?

    I was just reading about Far Cry 4's editor, which is designed so that anyone can use it - they should implement something like that as well. I believe it's run right through the game itself, no external editing programs needed. With the amount of Thief fan missions out there, you'd have to think something like this would be a hit.

    To all the naysayers, no, I don't think they should just remake all the original levels exactly the same and keep the same exact story as The Dark Project or The Metal Age. I just think they changed way too much in creating the most recent game. Some things in Thief should be standard - the factions, the light gem, Stephen Russell, excellent audio, large levels, free movement, and so on. Keep those things the same, and then get creative with a new story or some new tools or weapons or some new locales.. You could even make it an open world type thing ala Fallout or Skyrim. But keep the staples that everyone knows and loves the same.
    "I can see only one good thing coming from a Thief 4. Mark my words on this one. It will make people love Deadly Shadows." -Digital Nightfall (4/4/2008)

  5. #30
    Originally Posted by brethren
    Curious to know what the regulars around here think. So EM/SE still own the rights to the Thief franchise. What will they do with it?
    Probably nothing for quite some time.


    What i would like to see is a reboot of the reboot. There were some good elements shining through the massiv layer of crap after all. I kind of liked the Matrix like story. I liked the swoop ( was a bit op though). I liked the fluid animations.

    Free jumping, rope arrows and larger maps are a must for NuNuThief however. Don't care about SR at this point anymore (can't believe i just typed that )

  6. #31
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    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    Eidos should return to a more traditional control scheme..
    greatly increase the size of the level zones..
    add in proper audio propagation...
    better writing

    If at least those few things get done, it would make a world of difference.
    I agree.
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  7. #32
    They should sell the rights to someone who understands what made the original thief games great or leave it be.

    Another company might want to start with a faithful reproduction of the old games on a new game engine (i.e. one that runs on modern computer systems and with higher resolution graphics and perhaps with some minor improvements of the things that are widely recognized as problems in the old games). Once they have done that, they would have a modern thief engine and level designer (which they would release to the fans naturally) and would be in a great position to create a sequel, perhaps they could call it "Thief IV".

    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    Eidos should return to a more traditional control scheme, greatly increase the size of the level zones, and add in proper audio propagation if they're going to continue with the series. Better writing almost goes without saying, but I feel like the awkward story was a result of the game (allegedly) being stripped apart and stitched back together a few times during development. So I don't think it will be too tough to improve on that.

    If at least those few things get done, it would make a world of difference.
    I'm guessing that can't be done without a compete rewrite. Good sound propagation isn't easy to program and should have been considered from the start of development. Map size is probably also a limitation of the game engine. They might be able to add lean buttons instead of the ghastly cover system but that would probably break the simplistic detection system used and I doubt they can change the contextual jumping, climbing and rope-arrow mechanics easily.
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  8. #33
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    It's a little too early to remake the original games. They have a lot of game assets and could go on from where it currently is. They could even have a cataclysm that could launch it in another direction.

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by MarrowMonkey
    I'm guessing that can't be done without a compete rewrite. Good sound propagation isn't easy to program and should have been considered from the start of development. Map size is probably also a limitation of the game engine. They might be able to add lean buttons instead of the ghastly cover system but that would probably break the simplistic detection system used and I doubt they can change the contextual jumping, climbing and rope-arrow mechanics easily.
    I'm just suggesting what I think they should do for the sequel (while being realistic, since things like "bring back Stephen Russell" and "sprawling, nonlinear levels with a high degree of simulation" are pretty much not going to happen at this point).

  10. #35
    But, then that would be Thief.

  11. #36
    I think the continuation of the Thief legacy will be from the modding and fanmission community. The big name game developers are only interested in making money and control of content and will most likely NOT listen to it's fan base if there is any possibility of it reducing their profits or control of "their" game and it's contents. Thief 4 is a good example. Have there been any new DLC or a possibility of an editor or SDK lately? Perhaps there isn't enough people at EM interested in making DLC for Thief because they are involved in making other games and can't be bothered right now. You can make a very Thief like game without having to use the Thief license. Dark Mod is a very good example. I hope to see more games like it in the future. The best Thief style of games will come from those who truly understand and are passionate about it. And best of all it will be free.

  12. #37
    If there is going to be a last chapter in the Thief series then most likely it would involve the destruction of the City. I can see Garrett and Basso escaping on a boat, seeing their "beloved" city overrun by zombies, in flames and perhaps sinking into the sea ( like Atlantis ). There is a Thief 2 fanmission called " Bad Hangover" that is kinda like that...lol

  13. #38
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    I'm available if they'd like to pay me to design that scenario.

  14. #39
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    Blasphemy!
    The official series will never have a 'last chapter' and neither will we see the destruction of the City!
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  15. #40
    Originally Posted by Lady_Of_The_Vine
    Blasphemy!
    The official series will never have a 'last chapter' and neither will we see the destruction of the City!
    Perhaps you're right but EM did get rid of the Hammerites, Pagans, Keepers and other cast of characters that gave the CITY some flavor. If Garrett and Basso on their boat go west or east they are bound to make landfall and maybe they will find another big city on the coast to continue their nefarious adventures. Basso with his connections is bound to know some people there.

  16. #41
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    Originally Posted by sneaksietaffer
    Perhaps you're right but EM did get rid of the Hammerites, Pagans, Keepers and other cast of characters that gave the CITY some flavor.
    Yeah, I get what you mean. Though they didn't 'get rid' of these factions, they just didn't use them for the reboot.
    Maybe next time...
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  17. #42
    I am 34 old & I practically grew up with the original THIEG trilogy. And what I have to say is that I am really enjoying reboot THIEF last week, bought it on Holidays sale. I really like labyrinthine City hub with Basso jobs, Ector and Vittorio jobs, not to mention tons of flats open just for curious explorers. I like mechanics, focus, upgrades & trinkets. I like level design and gloomy cold atmosphere. I like missions and all those tons of tiny secrets which you would have to find in order to collect 100% loot & collectibles. So as for me personally I like this THIEF reboot as a whole and I just want some more of DLCs. 2 or 3 side missions like CityBank would be real pleasure. And I do not care if they would not have any connection with the original trilogy. For me that new THIEF is a new game that stands on its own, I do not even want to compare it with original. What for? This is whole new story and most important new universe with its new unique characters, legends, atmosphere. I do not want Hammerites or Pagans to see here in this new world, they would not fit it as I think. This "primal" stone and energy and those horrific blind creatures are more than enough to move on with that whole new THIEF universe.
    IMO

  18. #43
    This reboot Thief has no future IMO. I don't see any new DLC coming or any hope of fanmissions. The characters in this game have done their parts and are finished. I think it's not likely that Erin would make a return and most Thief fans don't care to have her back to continue the same dull story.
    If there is another Thief in the works then it probably would make a complete break with this reboot and hopefully go back to the original timeline and characters.

  19. #44
    Innovate

    Do everything that ubisoft wouldn't/daresn't

    Create a cohesive idea, make that, don't stray from the idea, release it within a reasonable amount of time

    At every decision point ask "is this restricting the player unnecessarily?" If yes, don't do it.

  20. #45
    If this game is ANY indication of what Eidos plans to do with it in the future... You can count me right out.

    I played the original games when they came out, and I still reinstall them to replay them today, as the gameplay holds up quite well.

    But this... horrible thing that Eidos has made? It defecates on the ashes of Looking Glass Studios. The sound design is sloppy and discordant. The first games focused on sound as the primary method of detecting threats. But in this game, it takes a backseat to the damn focus mode, and as such, it was lazily done. Eidos does not realize the importance of sound. It has virtually no similarity to the first games. Especially not the dubstep soundtrack.

    The light gem mechanic is binary, regardless of what the interface says, and it really doesn't matter anyway. The stealth mechanics seem to rely more on completely arbitrary events rather than set rules. Not to mention the over-obvious "obstacles" that still rely on a binary system. Broken glass? 100% chance of detection, no matter how far away you are from a guard. But if you're sneaking? No chance of detection no matter how close you are to a guard. There's a reason we were outraged at the binary stealth system, when we were used to the much deeper system in the originals. And why is there a "sneak mode," anyway? Garrett is the master thief. The whole SERIES is about stealth. In the old games Garrett was ALWAYS in stealth mode. And this allowed the game to really add some depth to the stealth. This new version is bad.

    The Hammerites, the Pagans, the Keepers, and the City Watch have been obliterated, thus taking away any identity The City once had. They took away the CONFLICT. They took away the personality, the characters. They lobotomized The City. The new "Garrett's" voice is flat and lacking in inflection and personality. Erin is an insufferable egomaniac. Not to mention the one-dimensional characters and absurd villains. NOBODY in this game is likeable, or relateable. You might as well have just named Garrett "Bruce," because we know exactly who you were trying to emulate. And it sure as hell wasn't the original Garrett. And nobody calls each other a "taffer" anymore. Instead you decided to use fake-maturity by dropping F-bombs at every opportunity.

    The interface takes you OUT of the game, rather than immersing you in it. Oh sure, you could "turn off the guides" for a "greater challenge," but that doesn't work like you seem to think it does. The whole GAME was built around the interface and mechanics and Focus Mode. Removing them to increase difficulty is like cutting off the fingers of a pianist. The task itself hasn't become more difficult. The music hasn't changed. The layout of the keys hasn't changed. Hobbling the player is not the same as giving the player a better challenge.

    The freedom of movement in the game has been reduced to a fraction of what the originals had. You can't shoot a rope arrow on any wooden surface. You have to find "anchor points." Trying to cleverly find a path to your objective with your own eyes has been reduced to simply watching for prompts. "Press Space to climb." Scripted takedowns remove the suspense. And I won't even get into the "find the safe combination" puzzles that are just INSULTING to the player's intelligence.

    I would link a few choice reviews that point out exactly why this game was deemed worth of Yahtzee's "Worst Game of 2014" title. But frankly, Eidos doesn't care. Because every single problem that I mentioned in this game, as well as the ones I didn't, could have been avoided. We were shown footage and screencaps of the game well over a year in advance, they were given hundreds upon HUNDREDS of well-constructed posts giving them suggestions. And Eidos proceeded to smile and nod, close the forum window, and never ever think about them again.

    So yeah. My suggestion for Eidos, in regards to Thief?

    Sell the rights to someone who actually cares about the franchise.

    You do not deserve to make these games. You are not worthy of them. You do not know what made them great. You took away everything good about them, violating a work of art in a disgusting attempt to make it marketable. To make more games like this is the equivalent of keeping a terminal cancer patient on permanent life support, despite having no quality of life left. Except in this case, the patient was deliberately given cancer by its nurse.

    And now if you'll excuse me, I am going to go play Styx: Master of Shadows.
    Last edited by Shadowrabbit; 1st Jan 2015 at 12:13.

  21. #46
    Still with the "dubstep", gaaaaaaaah!!!!

    Someone bring me the head of the idiot who started off this idea that the new thief has actual dubstep in it.

  22. #47
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    Originally Posted by AlexRos1980
    I am 34 old & I practically grew up with the original THIEG trilogy. And what I have to say is that I am really enjoying reboot THIEF last week, bought it on Holidays sale. I really like labyrinthine City hub with Basso jobs, Ector and Vittorio jobs, not to mention tons of flats open just for curious explorers. I like mechanics, focus, upgrades & trinkets. I like level design and gloomy cold atmosphere. I like missions and all those tons of tiny secrets which you would have to find in order to collect 100% loot & collectibles. So as for me personally I like this THIEF reboot as a whole and I just want some more of DLCs. 2 or 3 side missions like CityBank would be real pleasure. And I do not care if they would not have any connection with the original trilogy. For me that new THIEF is a new game that stands on its own, I do not even want to compare it with original. What for? This is whole new story and most important new universe with its new unique characters, legends, atmosphere. I do not want Hammerites or Pagans to see here in this new world, they would not fit it as I think. This "primal" stone and energy and those horrific blind creatures are more than enough to move on with that whole new THIEF universe.
    IMO
    Yeah, veteran taffer here too. EM got a lot of things right - as well as some things wrong.
    They said there won't be any DLCs and that makes sense to me seeing as Thief was simply a reboot to introduce Garrett to the new generation of gamers.
    I'm looking forward to a sequel but we've definitely got some years to wait before we see it.
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  23. #48
    Originally Posted by Lady_Of_The_Vine
    EM got a lot of things right - as well as some things wrong.
    Just curious what is this exactly that EM got wrong at your opinion?

    As for me personally the only problem is that the bridge scene was thousand times more emotionally satisfying as a finale than the real closing with 2 nasty boss fights. That is the main problem of the THIEF reboot as I see it. Everything else is quite nice and challenging.

    Another one tiny problem is a poor variety of Watch monologues and nearly absence of occasional city scenes with citizens. But that's not a big problem, since EM already pushed Unreal to the edge, they could not technically fill the city with citizens, animations and random scenes.

    That's basically all that bothered me with new THIEF.

    No big difference in between materials you're stepping? Not a problem for me. Because in my opinion it was ridiculous that materials sound so much different when you're wearing leather boots. That's just immersion braking mechanics in the modern grown up game industry.

    I can't shoot rope arrows wherever I want? Also I do not really care, because it doesn't make any real change to gameplay. In original THIEF wooden surfaces were placed very carefully and intentionally, it's practically the same if the whole ceiling is "ropable" or a single "anchor point", this or another way you're limited to where you may climb.

    Originally Posted by Lady_Of_The_Vine
    They said there won't be any DLCs and that makes sense to me seeing as Thief was simply a reboot to introduce Garrett to the new generation of gamers. I'm looking forward to a sequel but we've definitely got some years to wait before we see it.
    Well I really hope you're right, but I am afraid you're not. According to reviews and players reaction the decision not to make any DLC is a sign that EM do not plan to make anything at all with THIEF reboot. Perhaps, 10 years later...

    And, oh, EM could release an Editor for this new THIEF heavily modified Unreal3.5. That could make a big difference. And unlike original THIEF editors it would be wise decision to allow modders to include fan missions right inside the game and tweak, balance the game itself. Such a decision could be a real wise move toward players!
    Last edited by AlexRos1980; 3rd Jan 2015 at 00:55.

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by AlexRos1980
    I can't shoot rope arrows wherever I want? Also I do not really care, because it doesn't make any real change to gameplay. In original THIEF wooden surfaces were placed very carefully and intentionally, it's practically the same if the whole ceiling is "ropable" or a single "anchor point", this or another way you're limited to where you may climb.
    The wooden areas for rope arrows in TDP don't serve nearly as narrow a function as the ones in Thief14. I agree they could have been expanded more in the original game, but there's still a pretty big difference in the possibilities the two systems present to players. Rope arrows weren't just useful for traversing the environment, but also for improvisational escapes, avoiding patrols, etc. The level designers were careful not to get so carried away with the wood surfaces that they became level-breaking (lest they give the players enough rope to hang themselves, so to speak) but they still offered quite a few interesting possibilities. Much more than the ones we see in Thief14.

    Originally Posted by AlexRos1980
    No big difference in between materials you're stepping? Not a problem for me. Because in my opinion it was ridiculous that materials sound so much different when you're wearing leather boots. That's just immersion braking mechanics in the modern grown up game industry.
    A lot of players complained about the boot audio in the old games (in my mind, that was just Garrett's hyper-sensitive interpretation of the sounds he was making, but that was never made explicit), but they could have addressed that issue a dozen different ways that would have worked better than what they went with. Those kinds of binary stealth systems work well for something like Wolfenstein or the Far Cry games, which are mostly shooter with stealth elements bolted on top, but for a straight up stealth game, they don't really cut it. Same with the light gem and audio propagation. The game doesn't offer enough of a buffer zone between "loud/quiet", let alone "detected/undetected."

  25. #50
    They should put the franchise on ice (where it should have remained) and give it to a team at some point that can make an actual sequel to the original franchise.

    Best is not to touch it ever again.

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