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Thread: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...

  1. #1

    Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... (now with edit)

    Hey guys.

    I checked out the "open letter", and yes, if everything said in it is true, it might just be good.

    Problem is, I don't feel really excited about it. Because reading it felt like a "deja vu".

    Indeed, from the start of Absolution's marketing, I've been following all the messages from IO. I kept being very excited, I couldn't wait for the game to come out. But more and more people started worrying, saying things like "you see what they did about [some specific point]? It's not at all like the old Hitman games...". I defended the game, quoting the developpers : "Yeah but, they said [some vague plea saying that point was actually just like the old games and/or could be disabled by some option], so, you see? It's all gonna be fine."

    Then the game came out, and all the concerns of these pessimist people were actually true, and I played the whole game with a feeling of disappointment, it was a correct game, but I kept playing hoping for a moment it would start becoming GOOD, we would start being able to play like in the old games. Then I realized this point wouldn't come, and I kept going until the end of the game, not just disappointed, but deceived by all IO "We're close to our fans"-marketing.

    I played all first fours Hitman finishing them multiple times, I spent hundred of hours on Blood Money, but this? I just finished it once, tried to replay it, thinking it could be good, right? But no, still that feeling that something is wrong, that this is a waste, like this game COULD have been awesome, but it is not, and it's a shame.

    So, yeah, they say they heard us, they understood we didn't like it much and they will try to make it better for the next time, that they will work very hard to satisfy us, but I've been deceived once, and these words are just it: words. I won't allow myself to expect this new game until you, IO developpers, show me that you deserve to be trusted.


    EDIT :
    Okay. I've been replaying Absolution and I've been reading some comments about the game on the Web; and some people did like Absolution and think the negative comments are too harsh compared to whats the game really is worth.
    So, I admit, I've been harsh too, with my post. I guess I was just pissed by the general way marketers treat us especially in the video game "universe", and I had to express whole of it just to IO because Hitman really does matter to me (sounds weird talking about a video game like that but its been a big part of my teenagehood).
    So I'd like to make this useful, and to say exactly and precisly what bothered a large portion of players (the most of em maybe?) about absolution. There could be many ways to say it, but the thing really could be named in one word : liberty. Or the lack of liberty, actually.

    Now this lack of liberty really is about 2 things :

    -The disguise system. Because yes, sneaking around sam-fisher style has (almost) always been an option, but thats not how most players want to do it; and Absolution's system makes it impossible to walk around PNGs for too long, which means limits the possibility of discovering the maps. And it's a real shame, because you did add several paths and a lot of options to finish a contract, but we can't discover them freely because we have to use a limited amount of instinct to walk past pngs, and pngs are all over the place! Just remember that mission (forgot the name) in Hitman Silent Assassin, when you HAVE to take the outfit of a doctor to perform a fake surgery and kill the target in front of 2 or 3 other doctors. How would that scene be possible with the current system? actually it would, but we would have to use the instinct to enter the room, and use it to immediatly leave. Which wouldnt be realistic or pleasant to play imo.

    -Gear management. Thats pretty simple to explain, we want, at least like in Hitman 2&3, to be able to play the missions with the gear of our choice. Which SHOULD mean ACTUAL contracts and not a succession of events where 47 is kind of on his own. THAT is mostly why the scenario and story of Absolution is not much liked : because the story justified this lack of gear management, since we gave it up for intel (which 47 shouldnt do, I mean, come on, he's a pro assassin and all). And of course, weapon customization. Now thats REALLY something that people love! It adds kind of a RPG thing to the game, its similar to some level-up, which makes the player want to keep playing to gain new options to become more powerful/more stealthy/etc. You kind of sensed that, because you did add some options like more instinct, breath control improvement etc... But Hitman is not an ACTUAL rpg; 47 shouldn't really improve, since he's supposed to be perfect. But he should be able to improve his equipment like in Blood Money, using the money of his contracts. For that, Blood Money was really perfect.
    And please don't add a ton of skins modifications for weapons or for 47, or at least don't make it a main part of customization, thats just too COD-like, and it feels ridiculous especially if they are DLCs. It's Hitman not The Sims, pliz

    Now I could keep talking about other details, like the story, because yes, I didn't like it, and I think not much people did, since it showed us a WAY too much sensitive 47 (I did like when he went to save the priest in Silent Assassin, or reading that he cried at the death of his bunny at the Asylum as a kid), I mean, ok he's sensitive, but this episode his emotions made him clearly non professionnal (the best example of that is him giving away his gear to #savethegirl); or the way maps were made, you had to sneak everywhere but that just is the disguise system's fault; or blabla, just read internet comments they sum it up pretty well.
    I just wanted to point >THE< main issue with Absolution : LACK. OF. LIBERTY. and again its a shame, because you really put efforts into implementing several options into the MAP, but the map itself couldnt be freely played.
    Fix this in any way possible for the next game, (but don't OVERDO it with 1000 skin options like TF2 Hats, please lord; the error you could make now is to overdo everything, I don't really see how but I'm kinda sure it would just ruin your efforts), and there is NO WAY people don't like it.

  2. #2
    nicely written

    I could not agree with you more...

    I was along for the entire ride of Absolution.. i waited on the forums for that game for over A YEAR! it was the longest most excited i had ever been for a game.. pre-ordered the professional edition and everything..

    i will not be doing that this time...

    i defended the dev team, had their backs, and hoped for the best

    couldn't play through the game more than one time and was thoroughly disappointed and really felt betrayed and lied to

    all that from a video game that i liked... sounds weird but its true and it happened.. hah

    im really hoping this time the game is not designed for kids in elementary school and they go back to their roots - but im not holding my breath and i don't plan on buying in until i see reviews AFTER the game is released

    i hope it does well and i hope its a good game... but they aren't selling me until the horse runs out of the gate!

  3. #3
    Yup, I won't be pre-ordering this game. I will wait for the reviews. Course they haven't even announced a title yet, so we prolly won't see this for 4 more years anyway.

  4. #4
    Yeah, I was extremely hyped for Absolution especially the way they were marketing it. Was such a shame to be waiting for a game for so many years only to be disappointed so much.

    With that said, IO has stated that it will be an open sandbox level game with you taking out contracts for the ICA in exotic locations. If they stick to that I don't think there's that much to worry about. Blood Money 2 with the new game engine\graphics seems to be the best description of what most people want.
    There's a bullet for everyone.. And a time.. And a place..

  5. #5
    thats the attitude i had with Absolution tho'

    im just not expecting anything this go around. To be honest i'm guessing the game will be more like absolution 2 rather than bloodmoney 2...

    i just don't think they will make the necessary changes

    its going to take an epic plot and a huge turn around on gameplay... just to be in the same category as bloodmoney, let alone be better than bm

    i hope we do see a great game, honestly - just not expecting one

    itsrob - go check out some of the older threads on Absolutions forum, look at the discussions and the optimism, then notice how all the positivity turned to down right anger and fury, and how everyone just dropped off the forum - which im sure most of the posts were deleted... but go check it out and be wary my friend... veeewwwwyyyywaaaaawwyyy (elmer fudd saying very wary)

  6. #6
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    I can't lie, this thread is tough to read. I am confident that the next game will speak for itself when we begin to show more of it - and that will be a part of earning back any lost trust.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Itsrob View Post
    With that said, IO has stated that it will be an open sandbox level game with you taking out contracts for the ICA in exotic locations. If they stick to that I don't think there's that much to worry about. Blood Money 2 with the new game engine\graphics seems to be the best description of what most people want.
    Ha you saw the game already you lucky .

    Honestly, I don't think IO will screw this game up. The future of the developer lies in Hitman 6. If they pull another Absolution, it's goodbye to the boys in Denmark. Unless, of course, they make a Freedom Fighters 2 which I have been waiting a decade for...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis@IO View Post
    I can't lie, this thread is tough to read. I am confident that the next game will speak for itself when we begin to show more of it - and that will be a part of earning back any lost trust.
    That's great to hear! I am also confident that the majority of us will love the new Hitman game, since IO is calling in playtesters who have played all or at least most games of the series to give feedback about the game.

    The biggest flaws seem to have been noticed as the open letter shows. The only things I see missing from it are the stealth-system and the story.

    The stealth in Absolution is too much based on the cover-system, even though it is a great addition to the game and makes occasional lurking and suit-only runs better. The flaw is that Disguise + Instinct combination forced us to use cover. In the past titles you could feel like a badass walking amongst your enemies without anyone knowing if you had the proper disguise. Of course you'd get caught if you go hump someones leg, but in Absolution the guards have wicked eyesight and know every collague a hundred meters away. In my opinion the disguise system in Contracts was implemented best.

    Then the story. Oh boy did you boys it up. Latex-ninja nuns causing massive explosions and 47 in a wrestling ring. I don't know what others want from Hitman, but I've always seen 47 as a combination of darkness and class. I didn't expect to be caught by some B-movie villain and run away from cops, I expected to assassinate dark, powerful people.

  9. #9
    @Aybroe - bingo!


    @Travis

    hah, we still love ya' - just make the best game that has ever been created with the best story line that has ever been attached to a video game and there will be no riots

  10. #10
    Sometimes simpler storyline is better.
    I mean that Absolution had too many story arcs, so it was hard to see 47 beneath all of it. I know that it was IOI's intention from the beginning (concentration on secondary characters), but i couldn't recognize 47 himself (what i think was very bad sign). I hope H6 will be more about Hitman than about suckers and other "limp dicks".

  11. #11
    The Hitman series only burned me once so far, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that it was just a one-time hiccup. I will be buying this game at launch if it looks good. The Splinter Cell series on the other hand has burned me twice in a row with Conviction and Blacklist. The next Splinter Cell game will have to look like Chaos Theory 2 for me to even consider buying it at launch this time around.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by semajmarc87 View Post
    The Hitman series only burned me once so far, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that it was just a one-time hiccup. I will be buying this game at launch if it looks good. The Splinter Cell series on the other hand has burned me twice in a row with Conviction and Blacklist. The next Splinter Cell game will have to look like Chaos Theory 2 for me to even consider buying it at launch this time around.
    Ooo the burn by Conviction was really bad. Then Blacklist? I didn't even bother playing that game, especially since they dropped Michael Ironside; he was the last recognizable feature of Sam Fisher and they even removed that. Splinter Cell died back in 2006 with Double Agent.

  13. #13
    IMO Conviction was better than Blacklist because it knew what kind of game it wanted to be, and it stuck to stealth-action throughout, whereas Blacklist half-*ssed the proper sneaking and forced the player into random action pieces. It also had a far better story, and was more fun to play on the whole.

    To get back on topic, I have faith in IOI. They'll listen to the fans and improve.

  14. #14
    The Original post hit my feelings about absolution on the head. I never even finished absolution. I couldn't do it. I was so pissed off I couldn't play the game the way I wanted to, I put it away at Attack of The Saints. I remember sneaking through the library thinking there was going to be a hit at the end. Then there was no hit, there was a mini mission where I had to avoid being spotted by a helicopter. Then I thought, "Wow! This is a really long tutorial. When am I going to be able to choose my weapons for the next hit?" And that moment never came. I decided to keep playing because I'm a huge hitman fan! I even bought a real AMT Hardballer and had it customized to look like 47's. So I kept playing. Then I go through a whole mission in a hospital wondering where my hit is only to end with a cut scene of 47 getting beat up by a cartoon character. It pained me to keep playing for as long as I did. Since then I have thought about finishing it but I can't do it. It bums me out to think how awesome that game could have been if they stuck to the true hitman format.

    With all of that said, I'm really happy to see Travis respond to this thread the way he did. I strongly agree with what the OP said. Although I most likely will be stupid enough to pre-order the next hitman.

  15. #15
    I liked H:A.

    That being said, I liked the originals better.

    Great to see that these forums are actually read though.
    >ICARUS FOUND YOU!!!
    >>RUN WHILE YOU CAN!!!

  16. #16
    you are in the minority Lemon_Lime

  17. #17
    One thing to remember, not very much of the game was revealed leading up to the release of Hitman: Absolution. We only got a snippet of that one library mission and some minor details. I think Hitman: Absolution could have ended up better if the game hadn't been so "under wraps" because the fans could have pointed out the things they didn't like. I hope the devs will be much more open this time around in regards to what's in Hitman 6.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis@IO View Post
    I can't lie, this thread is tough to read. I am confident that the next game will speak for itself when we begin to show more of it - and that will be a part of earning back any lost trust.
    Travis, do you know what percentage of IO consists of original developers who worked on the first 4 Hitman games as opposed to the new people that came in during Absolution and Hitman 6?

  19. #19

    Rolleyes

    Quote Originally Posted by semajmarc87 View Post
    One thing to remember, not very much of the game was revealed leading up to the release of Hitman: Absolution. We only got a snippet of that one library mission and some minor details. I think Hitman: Absolution could have ended up better if the game hadn't been so "under wraps" because the fans could have pointed out the things they didn't like. I hope the devs will be much more open this time around in regards to what's in Hitman 6.
    i disagree... i see that you joined the forum about the same time i have, i guess you have been lurking a bit more than me...

    but i definitely disagree...

    i feel that there was a lot of information put out there... different videos pictures information and i also think that they may have put a little too much info out there

    they pumped us up and made everyone believe we were getting something that we weren't

    as fans we crave info and we want to know everything about the game, but sometimes less is more when revealing items on the game... but also i do understand it's probably good for them to test the market on certain things by running things past some of the more serious fans (us here at the hitman forum) and bouncing some ideas off of us

    its like when you see a few different previews of a movie on commercials... and the entire plot is ruined or at least dulled

    there should be some mystery about what is happening and an excitement to find out the details and to enjoy the entire game

    the game still needs to be good... it can't suck... but i think they should be smarter about the type of info they release - it will allow them a little leeway and flexibility to change things last minute

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mcescher1 View Post
    i disagree... i see that you joined the forum about the same time i have, i guess you have been lurking a bit more than me...

    but i definitely disagree...

    i feel that there was a lot of information put out there... different videos pictures information and i also think that they may have put a little too much info out there

    they pumped us up and made everyone believe we were getting something that we weren't

    as fans we crave info and we want to know everything about the game, but sometimes less is more when revealing items on the game... but also i do understand it's probably good for them to test the market on certain things by running things past some of the more serious fans (us here at the hitman forum) and bouncing some ideas off of us

    its like when you see a few different previews of a movie on commercials... and the entire plot is ruined or at least dulled

    there should be some mystery about what is happening and an excitement to find out the details and to enjoy the entire game

    the game still needs to be good... it can't suck... but i think they should be smarter about the type of info they release - it will allow them a little leeway and flexibility to change things last minute
    My name used to be "YummyCola" so maybe you know me under that name. I had it changed. Anyway, I don't want a lot to be revealed. On the contrary, I want to be surprised. But when we're in a situation where the dev team has had trouble getting the right "formula" in the past, it's (unfortunately) necessary and helpful for the fans to offer input throughout the development process. I feel like I went into Hitman: Absolution "blind," meaning, I didn't know what to expect. If we were able to have seen more than a short playthrough of part of a mission and a few screen shots and tidbits, I think the fans could have guided the game in a better direction. Again, I want to be surprised, but I'm willing to see possibly more of the game than I'd want to if it would help make the game better in the end.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    Travis, do you know what percentage of IO consists of original developers who worked on the first 4 Hitman games as opposed to the new people that came in during Absolution and Hitman 6?
    I'm also curious about this. I heard Absolution had a bunch of new people which could explain the pretty dramatic change in tone\story from what would be expected from the more "traditional" Hitman.
    There's a bullet for everyone.. And a time.. And a place..

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by semajmarc87 View Post
    My name used to be "YummyCola" so maybe you know me under that name. I had it changed. Anyway, I don't want a lot to be revealed. On the contrary, I want to be surprised. But when we're in a situation where the dev team has had trouble getting the right "formula" in the past, it's (unfortunately) necessary and helpful for the fans to offer input throughout the development process. I feel like I went into Hitman: Absolution "blind," meaning, I didn't know what to expect. If we were able to have seen more than a short playthrough of part of a mission and a few screen shots and tidbits, I think the fans could have guided the game in a better direction. Again, I want to be surprised, but I'm willing to see possibly more of the game than I'd want to if it would help make the game better in the end.
    ahhh yessss i remember you now yummycola

    yeaaaa, i feel like releasing things too early can be really tough for them..

    not only are they still developing things but they aren't sure what they are keeping what they aren't... their job is to make the decisions on what works and what doesn't while making sure they develop the right things in the right ways

    you also have producers who may be making decisions to which the developers themselves don't know what they will be

    until the game is pretty much cut and pieced together they won't be releasing much info...

    the game will be "done" at least 8 months before the game is released. this is an educated guess, but for the game to be produced thousands upon thousands of copies have to be made, tested, and shipped to thousands and thousands of locations across the globe.

    after the game is final there are still many many steps that need to be taken - steps that take time

    they could be half done the game right now... but we still won't begin to see things until they are putting final touches on the game and making tweaks...

    we may still have the opportunity to influence some of their decisions (when they want our opinions) but other than that as a community we have very little say in what actually gets done in development...

    if they listened to every person who had a request for the game it would be the worst game ever..

    but thats why they have game testers and directors and developers and design teams...

    i believe that everyone involved in the process of making hitman wants it to be the best it can be, and they want to listen to the collective of the fans, and they want to be original and all of those great things

    its a matter of if it happens and if they can listen to the right people and choose the right ways to go on the game

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mcescher1 View Post
    the game will be "done" at least 8 months before the game is released. this is an educated guess, but for the game to be produced thousands upon thousands of copies have to be made, tested, and shipped to thousands and thousands of locations across the globe.
    Actually, final touches can come in around a month before the game is released. For example, GTA 5 didn't go "gold" i.e. the finalized disk did not get sent to manufacturers until August 26, 2013 and the game released September 17, 2013. Also, nowadays we have "Day 1" patches so developers can literally work on the game while it is being shipped to your house.

  24. #24

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    Actually, final touches can come in around a month before the game is released. For example, GTA 5 didn't go "gold" i.e. the finalized disk did not get sent to manufacturers until August 26, 2013 and the game released September 17, 2013. Also, nowadays we have "Day 1" patches so developers can literally work on the game while it is being shipped to your house.
    yeaa i was thinking about it after i posted that and realized that 8 months is probably a long shot

    it is probably more like a month to 3 months

    but as far as making changes to the game... like any real development changes or designs... its probably more like 4-6 months...

    at some point they have to say OK we are done making any major changes... it's all bug fixes and final touches from here on out, no script changes, voice overs are done, animations and movies are just about done...

    at what point do they stop making major edits or changes??

    because once they start revealing information and aspects of the game they are pretty much committed to it...

    so if they come out and say... instinct is back... and everyone flips out... what do they do? keep it and stay with a possibly sinking ship or add several months to development prolong release and design around it..

    ya know?

    although it might be better for the game to get rid of instinct or something like that doing so would be taking a big chunk out of the work and man hours put in already... plus adding more to figure out a "replacement" or "game attraction" if they haven't already ditched it from the beginning

    unless they started building straight off of blood money.. which i'm guessing they didn't due to the switch of engines.. they probably started building off of absolution... it makes sense

    will they really chop all the "fat" off , or just build on top of alllll thaaatttttttt ... crap leftover from absolution

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mcescher1 View Post
    but as far as making changes to the game... like any real development changes or designs... its probably more like 4-6 months...

    at some point they have to say OK we are done making any major changes... it's all bug fixes and final touches from here on out, no script changes, voice overs are done, animations and movies are just about done...

    at what point do they stop making major edits or changes??

    because once they start revealing information and aspects of the game they are pretty much committed to it...

    so if they come out and say... instinct is back... and everyone flips out... what do they do? keep it and stay with a possibly sinking ship or add several months to development prolong release and design around it..

    ya know?

    although it might be better for the game to get rid of instinct or something like that doing so would be taking a big chunk out of the work and man hours put in already... plus adding more to figure out a "replacement" or "game attraction" if they haven't already ditched it from the beginning

    unless they started building straight off of blood money.. which i'm guessing they didn't due to the switch of engines.. they probably started building off of absolution... it makes sense

    will they really chop all the "fat" off , or just build on top of alllll thaaatttttttt ... crap leftover from absolution
    Oh yeah, I think the game is done with the heavy development at least 4-5 months before. Then comes the optimization which, in today's market of graphics/FPS hype, means more than ever. Games like The Witcher 3 are in optimization mode as of right and the game won't be released until February of next year.

    Also, Kevin Conroy (the voice actor for Batman) said he was doing voice-over work for another Batman game back in March 2013 but the game (Batman: Arkham Knight) isn't slated for release until October 2014 --- now pushed back to Februaury 2015 for "optimization".

    There are a lot of games that received negative feedback from the community during the development process, forcing the developers to make changes. Didn't fan outrage over David Bateson being replace spark IO to bring him aboard again? It's too bad that IO didn't pass the whole Instinct idea past us first. Unfortunately for them, informed customers/long time fans of the original Hitman games aren't going to quickly buy Hitman 6 without understanding the negatives first so the pressure is on in creating the very best Hitman (which took a hit without Jesper Kyd).

    I don't get why you are so worried about the switch of engines. The only thing to be afraid of is if the Glacier 2 is restricting the creativity of the developers in some way. Do you know how many games use the Unreal Engine 3? Bioshock, Borderlands, Batman, Splinter Cell: Conviction, Dishonored and tons of other games all use the same core engine with, obviously, modifications. It's not like the Glacier 2 was built only for the Absolution style play. I bet you can make a Call of Duty using a modified Glacier 2. Just think of a game engine as the steel bars in a building. Just because you are using steel doesn't necessarily restrict the shape and use of a building. That analogy is very loose but I'm trying to convey to you that you can't define an engine by the games that were produced using it.

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