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Thread: Gameplay - Where do we go from now?

Gameplay - Where do we go from now?

  1. #26
    My biggest issue surrounding invisible barriers in HR actually had to do with invisible ceilings, not invisible walls. There were plenty of places in both city hubs that let you climb up pretty high, but then all of a sudden you try to jump and you only make it a foot off the ground before some invisible force pushes you back down. There was one part of Detroit in particular that had a small wall separating two playable spaces above some alley. I tried to jump the all, no luck. I tried to jump off a box next to the wall, didn't get any higher.

    Then I scoured the level for boxes and the like that I could stand on, which highlighted another huge issue with HR which is the utter lack of functionally interactive items. In the original.Deus Ex I would have grabbed a crate, a trash can, and maybe a bag of trash or something, and been over that wall in thirty seconds. In HR I had to travel to different parts of the hub just to find things tall enough to stand on and stack. Then when I got back to where I was trying to jump over, the things I had set up already had disappeared!

    Eventually I did stack a couple things and was able to look over the wall while standing on them, but jumping was just as fruitless as before. Some invisible squishy ceiling just over the height of the all was keeping me down. What a bunch of crap.
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  2. #27
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    Originally Posted by Jerion
    It would be intriguing to add a new dimension to hacking and the like, so that the player could control elements beyond cameras, doors, bots and turrets. Take some inspiration from Gunpoint and The Incredible Machine, play with the idea of deployable equipment and linking it into alarm systems. Think of it: Instead of just manipulating turret AI settings, have a deployable trip-laser so that you could build traps, then link them into existing security systems.
    Lots of great stuff so far in this thread! This one by John has me all excited. You may very well be on to something here my man. It would bring a true dimension to hacking, instead of merely being a way in or out of something, and it adds an element of playfulness and creativity we've lost over the years, at the hands of "realism" and misinterpreted/misguided immersion. There's a whole lot less playing going on, and this right here is a great and original way to bring some back.

    Shral, I must've spent one third of my time in Detroit going back and forth scavenging crates and boxes. Remember the argument behind regen health about not wanting players going back and forth for health? Well, I laughed the whole way through Detroit, carrying my crates!

    Keep it up, I'm likin what I'm readin!
    To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness

  3. #28
    You're talking about actors called "player blocks", the radii were sometimes set incorrectly and there are places where you can jump over or around them.

    A map can "buffer" the out of bounds area with items in between so players only get a look at it. I'd rather see lots of out of bounds areas than know the exact city limits within five minutes.
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  4. #29
    Originally Posted by [FGS]Shadowrunner
    You're talking about actors called "player blocks", the radii were sometimes set incorrectly and there are places where you can jump over or around them.

    A map can "buffer" the out of bounds area with items in between so players only get a look at it. I'd rather see lots of out of bounds areas than know the exact city limits within five minutes.
    The point is, if they're going to block off areas that you can see - but not travel to - then make the barriers realistic, not invisible walls.

  5. #30
    Originally Posted by Jito463
    The point is, if they're going to block off areas that you can see - but not travel to - then make the barriers realistic, not invisible walls.
    That's not always possible in a game with super jumping and crate stacking. Invisible walls are not bad design, nearly every 3D game features them, it's all about the implementation. Did you know there was invisible walls in DX1? Not likely, because they were well-implemented for the most part. But in HR they are placed a little more carelessly in some places and also there are some meshes that are non-solid or whatever the lingo is in crystal engine, and you pass right through them if you try to jump on them.

    All annoying? Yes, definitely a valid complaint, but HR has many other more important issues and shortcomings one could write an essay on.

  6. #31
    bro you could crawl out of maps limits in invisible war i dont want that make invisible walls and stuff also i think it would be better if there were more markers so i wont get lost in the map
    bro in eidos i trust

  7. #32
    You have a map. Use it.

  8. #33
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    That's not always possible in a game with super jumping and crate stacking. Invisible walls are not bad design, nearly every 3D game features them, it's all about the implementation. Did you know there was invisible walls in DX1? Not likely, because they were well-implemented for the most part. But in HR they are placed a little more carelessly in some places and also there are some meshes that are non-solid or whatever the lingo is in crystal engine, and you pass right through them if you try to jump on them.

    All annoying? Yes, definitely a valid complaint, but HR has many other more important issues and shortcomings one could write an essay on.
    I meant in a general sense. Yes, I did realize that (and had even seen your earlier comment about it), but the fact was that it was virtually invisible (no pun intended) to the player. You had to work really hard to find them in DX, while you didn't have to work so hard to find them in HR. It wasn't as bad as some other games, but it was certainly more evident than in the first one.

    And my post wasn't so much meant as a complaint, as it was about clarifying the previous conversations to Shadowrunner (and responding to his comment about inaccessible areas).

  9. #34
    Yes, anyway I agree with the point being made, that there should be less invisible walls. They should be to prevent players getting out of the playing zone only, and only when a visible barrier wouldn't be adequate. Though they do have other uses. For example, the primitive collision of static meshes in unreal 1/DX1 were cylindrical no matter the shape of the mesh, so vehicles for example had the most unbelievable collision of all meshes, was immersion breaking. To fix this in my mod I used numerous custom collisions (what is used for most invisible walls in DX) to spoof more realistic collision of some vehicles where it was necessary to do so.

    Edit: What we want with DX4: The mythical game on the hill, god-like, true design genius.

    What we will likely get: a game slightly better than HR and with plenty microtransations such as THIS.

    R.I.P AAA gaming.

  10. #35
    ohh another game with trasactions?Everyone wants money ,that suck.

  11. #36
    I wish I could get a Snoop Dogg voice pack for games I liked. Just saying.
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by Shralla
    I wish I could get a Snoop Dogg voice pack for games I liked. Just saying.
    Yeah? What about microtransations to even be able to equip things? That game has microtransactions up the butt to account for all the lost fans due to it being a poorly-designed mess.

  13. #38
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    Originally Posted by Shralla
    I wish I could get a Snoop Dogg voice pack for games I liked. Just saying.
    And a Jeff Goldblum voice pack.
    Make a cup of tea. Enjoy a nice cheddar. Always bring a towel.

  14. #39
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    Goldblum is nothing without his hand gestures.


    (I have no idea what this is. It was entitled "Jeff Goldblum as a centaur with lobster claws for hands")

    I'd like to see some more sophisticated augmentations when it comes to basic senses. You could do all sorts with super-sensitive hearing. Also, I hope vents stop being the sanctuary of every environment. If they see me crawl in, let NPCs follow me. IW got this part right- I seem to remember that one of the more advanced bot types could move through vents.

  15. #40
    That is just so messed up! Ha ha! That could had been from his "The Fly" days..

  16. #41
    Originally Posted by [FGS]Shadowrunner
    You're talking about actors called "player blocks", the radii were sometimes set incorrectly and there are places where you can jump over or around them.

    A map can "buffer" the out of bounds area with items in between so players only get a look at it. I'd rather see lots of out of bounds areas than know the exact city limits within five minutes.
    Kinda blows, though, that we are restricted within the city's boundary or blocked by the trucks and barriers. Imagine the possibility of DX4 being an open world..

  17. #42
    I'm basically just going to reiterate what has been said from the start on this one...
    Mechanically...

    Less invisible barriers, which should lead to slightly more open level design in general. The Detroit city hub i felt was pretty well done, except for when jumping around - there were plenty of places i should have been able to get to, but then got forced out of it. I understand that at the edge of a level, but in the center i should be allowed to go there, and rewarded for it.

    That kind of leads into the next request for more ways to progress in most of the levels. While the hubs were pretty well done, there were only a few missions that really offered more than a single approach - either go in and sneak through ducts, or go in and shoot people. Take the first mission for example - you can easily sneak past the majority of the guards - compare that to DX1's liberty island where instead of sneaking through the entire facility, i could just climb up on the outside and get right to the leader and accomplish the mission. I think more of the levels should be slightly larger and more sand-box like - i don't want it as open as Elder Scrolls or Fallout, not by a longshot - but HR would have been amazing if the majority of the levels were just 50% to 100% larger, mostly on the outer areas allowing the plan a different entry.

    I'm also not a fan of the hodgepodge of pre-rendered cut scenes. I'm guessing they were done because lower end computers and probably the consoles couldnt keep up a good frame rate when rendering them in game, so they rendered the ones that were causing issues. First of all, these should be rendered at an insanely high resolution if they have to be pre-rendered, and on PC at least come uncompressed, then compress them as necessary onto other hardware to fit the media. I'd think it wouldnt be too hard to incorporate an option into the engine to check them as pre-rendered on and off - so maybe most PCs cant handle rendering it right when the game is released, so they run a system test on start up, determine it should play the pre-rendered ones. Then a few years later when you have better hardware, it just renders them in engine. Result is virtually the same, but no change in video quality or resolution between play time and cut scene time.

    Mirrors. Yeah, i really can't let this one go - you know the devs worked extra hard just to get that basketball into HR because "The original Deus Ex had it." I'd like to see them do the same with mirrors. I understand that creates a bit of a problem for having to animate the main characters player model, but that shouldn't be too hard as all the NPCs have animations for pretty much anything you could be doing already that you should be able to copy paste over, and tweak slightly, right? I don't mind if i walk past a mirror carrying a box and its just floating in front of me - considering you could simply put the mirrors, you know - only in bathrooms. How often do you need to go box stacking in a bathroom? I don't think you've ever had to in any of the DX games - and DX1 had some pretty crucial bathrooms. It shouldn't be too hard to incorporate them in bathrooms, to create a sense of immersion, without worrying about the player doing weird things in front of them. I'm sure some people will go out of their way to, but overall i think it would be a better experience even with animation for the main character limited to ones similar to the first DX.

    No "Press the button" to pick the ending. DX1 did it well - defeating the boss in different ways ended the game differently. HR was better than Mass Effect 3 in that 3 of the endings did require you doing something else beforehand, but it still feels cheap that you can play the last level well, beat the boss, save, and then get all 4 endings off the same savegame. I'd like wildly different endings based on choices in the middle of the game, (think if DX1 let you stay with Unatco) but i think that's a pipe dream - so maybe have the ending show several of the characters and location you interacted with, and the repercussions of those actions.

    Keep rewards even. It really bothered me that HR rewarded players with more XP for doing non-lethal takedowns, not being caught or seen, and hacking when they didn't need to. You should get the same XP reward when you get into a locked terminal regardless of how it was done. When you get to the end of the level, if you were unseen get the ghost bonus - if you were seen, but you killed everyone - get a different named bonus with the same reward. Both lethal and nonlethal takedowns should have the same xp bonus - though im totally okay with you getting more for doing two at a time, and more for scoring headshots / 1 shot kills.

    Melee weapons would be nice. As would a larger variety of weapons in general - there are two styles of pistol in HR, it would have been nice to see two styles of assault rifle, smg, etc. as well - could use the same ammo for simplicity, but have different stats that would suit different players needs. When picking up the gun from the floor, there should be a long-press to "pick up gun" while a quick tap would just take the ammo from it, to stop from clogging the inventory.

    While i did like the inventory overall in HR, i would like to see it get a bit of a makeover. I found it jarring that a double barreled shotgun took up less pace in my inventory than a pistol. Also gotta love the crash to desktop whenever you added a mod to a gun that made it larger when you didnt have enough space in your inventory - Nothing wrong with changing the size of the gun, if your adding a silencer it should take up more space, but you should warn the player first. I'd like to see the ammo scale with quantity and type. Pistol ammo could be 1x1 until you hit more than 50, then it grows to 2x1. I found myself regularly dropping 1 or 2 rounds in HR because it was taking up 2 whole inventory slots.

    And oh, did i mention boss fights? I think this has been done to death, but i had to mention it - let me handle them the same way i handled them in DX1 - saying "Laputan Machine" and watching them self destruct, killing them before they go hostile on you, or just running away. Director's Cut addition of other ways to make the boss fights easier for players with less combat ability was nice too - i'd like to be able to brute force kill, use other interesting method to kill, and simply avoid every boss - Perhaps have a social boss option with some of them to talk them into joining your side and helping you out in the next game area? (Dealing with the boss in the missing link was pretty great.)

    Story wise...

    Depending on how the writers wan't to go - i'd like to see the franchise take the Mass Effect approach - You could continue the story of Adam and use an existing save game to determine which characters are alive or not, etc - seeing Malik come back if you saved her, etc would be really cool. (I never DIDNT save her, what happens if you let her die? Does Jock show up instead?) Or you could start from scratch with new characters - the important thing here is that you could create a long narrative that draws off of choices made from the first game - it adds depth and really gets you attached to characters.

    I'd like to see the story of how the NSF came into existence... "Human Defiance" could probably work as a title for a game that revolves around that...

    ...Well i think i just covered everything ever in this topic.

  18. #43

  19. #44
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    Originally Posted by Karpaw
    Must..not...hope...

  20. #45
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    Square is multiplying statements like this, but so far hasn't done anything to walk the talk. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
    To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness

  21. #46
    Fingers firmly crossed.

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by Gumpo10k
    I'm basically just going to reiterate what has been said from the start on this one...
    Mechanically...

    ...Well i think i just covered everything ever in this topic.
    Yeah man.. god damn, good details. You must be a writer, by trade.

  23. #48
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    Hi guys, sorry appreciate this thread is over a week old but want to add some of my own points, which may overlap with those summed up above.

    * Scrap the 3rd person sticky cover system and return to first person leaning. This probably won't happen due to console controller limitations but I really dislike 3rd person cover systems; they allow you to observe the area without actually exposing yourself and can also line up shots even with the cursor disabled. The other reason I hate them is due to the fact you are "stuck" on the piece of cover until your press a button to disconnect yourself, which imo is not intuitive and very awkward to deal with when being flanked, although we have seen from Tomb Raider that this doesn't have to be the case and I really enjoyed the combat in that game with the free flowing cover system, although I wish it had a crouch button! Not sure how they would implement the TR cover model without going totally 3rd person (which I'm not against!). Personally I think they either need to be totally 1st person OR 3rd person not some weird mash up of both.

    * More options for combat play-throughs please! A major down point for me in HR was the incredible weakness of Adam when on the highest difficulty in open combat; he dies extremely fast and bizarrely many of the human enemies take far more punishment than you do (not to even mention those bosses!). IMO this really constricts re-playability for me; in the original you could get 97% damage mitigation I believe from maxed ballistic shield aug and maxed environmental training with ballistic armour while HR you can only get 45% if I'm not mistaken. JC could also run way faster, jump insanely high and have an aug to detonate explosives from range, combine that with the flamer/plasma rifle and GEP gun and JC could be a terminator running rings around bots and jumping into hordes of enemies with a flamer to slaughter everything... Adam on the other hand just feels like every other generic 1st/3rd person shooter. There need to be much more combat related augmentations and the power of those that already exist (dermal impact armour) need massive buffs; there is far too much focus on stealth in the game, don't get me wrong I love stealth playthroughs but I also want to play a terminator . To balance this out there needs to be severe consequences for raising the alarm; more heavily armed bots and the ability for the enemy to call in large reinforcement waves from off map (helicopters/APCs).

    * Get rid of silly melee cut scenes and give us melee weapons! I thought the cut scenes were cool and all but they're also completely dumb. Why does melee cost energy? As far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason for this nonsense. I would be cool if Adam just stuck to his arm blades but they were an equipable weapon and they could be augmented to hit much harder or hit with different effects (eg EMP damage from shifter mod).

    * Streamline the augs. I never thought I would be calling for streamlining in a game least of all DX but seriously can we please reduce the massive clutter? If some of the garbage augs were removed and others merged into a single aug then that would give more room for more useful augs such as those relating to combat! This isn't universal but things like arms for example, why do I need to put points into carry heavy objects AND increased inventory space AND reduced recoil? Why not just have an aug that increases strength and then have 3-4 levels of that which improves all 3 each upgrade. Limit the max number of aug slots that can be filled in each location similar to how it was done in the first game to create more diversity of playthroughs.

  24. #49
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    Gotta agree the Aug Tree was somewhat questionable. Seems to me it's all linked to the playstyles issue. Augs appeared to be playstyle-oriented, but only on the surface, and the differences between approaches were generally too subtle, not to say rather shallow. And it all shows in the tree and its dubious structure. The end result is surprisingly more Splinter Cell With Stats, than chose-your-approach. Doesn't make it a bad experience, but it clearly did not accomplish what it set out to do.

    Once again, I think they might have wanted to be prudent with their first run and test the audience. Now that the basics are established, it's a great opportunity to add two extra layers and make the next experience a delicious one. To make a hockey analogy the devs can appreciate, you need more depth to win the cup.

    To reiterate on the whole issue of gaming as an active experience, I was reminded again last night how all great board games have an element of puzzle to them, if ever so slightly. Beyond strategy, be it blunt or filled with finesse, there's this idea of a construct based on properly stacked pieces. To be a lot more fun, the player approaches, or "how am I going to do this", needs to be more elemental, less polished, or grittier, if you want. A spark of pure playfulness. That's why I like John's approach to hacking so damn much. And no, it will not affect the immersion in a negative way. Quite the contrary in fact. The basic line here is, people, of all ages, like to play.

    Just imagine how much more fun Gears of War might have gotten later in the franchise, if one member of the unit carried automatic turrets and/or portable deployable cover to quickly set up your defense position in the rush of the battle. A small element, which changes the entire dynamic.
    To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness

  25. #50
    Originally Posted by rlilewi
    * Scrap the 3rd person sticky cover system and return to first person leaning. This probably won't happen due to console controller limitations
    This again? PC-only types an their ignorance.
    Removing sticky cover frees up a button (L2/LB). On Hold of LB/L2, and then using the left stick allows for pressure sensitive leaning in ALL directions on one axis utilizing the higher angular resolution and pressure sensitivivity of the stick. Not only can it do leaning, it can do far superior leaning than simply Q/E.

    A major down point for me in HR was the incredible weakness of Adam when on the highest difficulty in open combat; he dies extremely fast and bizarrely many of the human enemies take far more punishment than you do (not to even mention those bosses!). IMO this really constricts re-playability for me; in the original you could get 97% damage mitigation I believe from maxed ballistic shield aug and maxed environmental training with ballistic armour while HR you can only get 45% if I'm not mistaken. JC could also run way faster, jump insanely high and have an aug to detonate explosives from range, combine that with the flamer/plasma rifle and GEP gun and JC could be a terminator running rings around bots and jumping into hordes of enemies with a flamer to slaughter everything... Adam on the other hand just feels like every other generic 1st/3rd person shooter. There need to be much more combat related augmentations and the power of those that already exist (dermal impact armour) need massive buffs; there is far too much focus on stealth in the game, don't get me wrong I love stealth playthroughs but I also want to play a terminator . To balance this out there needs to be severe consequences for raising the alarm; more heavily armed bots and the ability for the enemy to call in large reinforcement waves from off map (helicopters/APCs).
    From the sounds of things you just want easy difficulty. Regeneration and ballistic protection augs in DX1 were near god-mode cheats. They also screwed significantly with the balance of the aug system, skill system, and game in general. At least they were a choice though.

    Example of screwery:

    Regeneration negated pretty much all damage types except explosives. You could even counter drowning and radiation damage with it. Seriously, it sticks out as a sore thumb in regards to gameplay; choice and consequence, balance, challenge. "hey guys lets code in all these skills and augs but then completely negate the majority with one singular god-mode like aug given to you through normal progression". DX is my favourite game of all time but some design decisions just don't fit in with the rest of the amazing design.

    * Streamline the augs. I never thought I would be calling for streamlining in a game least of all DX but seriously can we please reduce the massive clutter? If some of the garbage augs were removed and others merged into a single aug then that would give more room for more useful augs such as those relating to combat! This isn't universal but things like arms for example, why do I need to put points into carry heavy objects AND increased inventory space AND reduced recoil? Why not just have an aug that increases strength and then have 3-4 levels of that which improves all 3 each upgrade.
    No. Lets focus on this specifically:

    his isn't universal but things like arms for example, why do I need to put points into carry heavy objects AND increased inventory space AND reduced recoil? Why not just have an aug that increases strength and then have 3-4 levels of that which improves all 3 each upgrade.
    Having these separate allows for greater choice (and consequence, and gameplay depth). All HR's aug system needs is a ton of rebalancing efforts and to not allow you to have them all in one playthrough, more like half. After this is accomplished, it could be superior to DX1's system if executed correctly (and without the crappy energy system of course, and swapping takedown augs for proper melee, and splitting cloak into two opposing types as in DX1, and so on).


    Limit the max number of aug slots that can be filled in each location similar to how it was done in the first game to create more diversity of playthroughs.
    See, with this, in combination with a refined and expanded HR aug system, big things could happen. DX1's aug system is great, better designed than HR's in an overall sense, though regen loses it many points, and it can easily be bested...I already have (<- fact statement).
    In some ways they did expand upon it in HR, there is ultimately more choice, but they ditched many things about DX's system that was so great and it isn't very well balanced to boot. There is potential there though.

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