Thread: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided is Deux Ex 4 title?

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided is Deux Ex 4 title?

  1. #51
    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    Those two realities clashed, and at the end of the day their world is anything but believable. It's too close to home as far as "could be in ten years", and yet socially unrealistic, for the sake of eventually catching up with the DX timeline (which, when you think about it, was NEVER about the technology itself). There's no way, for instance, mechanical augmentations would become so prominent they'd be a worldwide moral issue by 2027 when you still have half the planet seeing tattoos as somewhat wrong. There's a fundamental difference between people being excited by technology, and making the leap we're talking here. And I think that's why the whole approach to transhumanism as a central theme rings false, and why it's exasperating to think the next game may revisit the same issues.
    I may be out of my depth here, only having played DX 1 and 2 once each, but I don't see how this could possibly be EM's fault. Those games clearly imply hi-tech and augs spread world-wide with years given. All EM could do with that is try to lead into it from our world, which means rapid spread and common use, no matter how unrealistic. And if tech rapidly spreads far and wide all over, and that tech becomes the new gold standard for human endeavour, which is either implied or reasonably inferred due to its usefulness, how can it not follow that class conflict would ensue between the "have" minority and "have not" majority?

    I'm completely with you on the idiocy of this being the only thing anyone talks about, but as far as the issue existing as a worldwide thing in the first place, I don't much see how EM could have credibly made it otherwise and stayed true to the lore.
    "The chief problem is that once you take the name of a beloved franchise, you're assuming responsibility for upholding its legacy". -AusGamers Thief review

  2. #52
    Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix
    Nobody's saying it doesn't fit the theme. They're saying it's painfully obvious and not particularly creative (kinda like naming a game "Deus Ex: Conflict" or "Deus Ex: Shooting Things" or "Deus Ex: Bad Stuff Happens").
    I never said anyone said it didn't fit the theme so I'm not sure where you are going with this. I'm saying "Deus Ex" is not particularly creative and will never win an award for best named game. In fact, if you were to study the name, what it is derived from and how it is used in writing (from tragedies to modern stories), you will see why it is actually flawed and also come to understand why the series as a whole can be considered a flaw from a literary standpoint.

    Some of us also have a problem with repeating the same theme which was thoroughly beaten to death in Human Revolution, which of course is pure speculation, but the title does seem to imply it.
    And I'm simply providing my take on the question posed in the thread title.

  3. #53
    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    As if the title "Deus Ex" was innovative, inspiring, fresh, unique, draw dropping, next level, cutting edge, etc.
    Well, given that it seems like most people still don't even know what the term means or where it originates, I would say it was a pretty solid title. Still gets people asking questions and looking into it.
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  4. #54
    The title Deus Ex is excellent, and has dual/triple meaning in the context of the original game.

    Also note that this thread title has incorrect spelling of the phrase: "Deux Ex"...that happens often and makes me lol.

  5. #55
    Meh can't say I love the title but HR is a uncreative title and I loved the game so nothing changes for me.

  6. #56
    Originally Posted by Yelorova
    Meh can't say I love the title but HR is a uncreative title and I loved the game so nothing changes for me.
    lol, y rely tho the gold filta is soooo expressive and artistic.



    Edit: Gold theme. There is no slap-on filter, is primarily lighting, but plenty else gold as well such as the HUD borders and interaction highlighting.

  7. #57
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    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    Parker may be on to something here, in the sense that this game's biggest limitation may be the Deus Ex title, as odd as this sounds, considering Deus Ex is anything but a synonym of limitations. Their biggest problem, initially, was creating the world they liked, that would be literally grounded in our current reality in terms of technology and current events, and tie it to the DX world somehow.

    Those two realities clashed, and at the end of the day their world is anything but believable. It's too close to home as far as "could be in ten years", and yet socially unrealistic, for the sake of eventually catching up with the DX timeline (which, when you think about it, was NEVER about the technology itself). There's no way, for instance, mechanical augmentations would become so prominent they'd be a worldwide moral issue by 2027 when you still have half the planet seeing tattoos as somewhat wrong. There's a fundamental difference between people being excited by technology, and making the leap we're talking here. And I think that's why the whole approach to transhumanism as a central theme rings false, and why it's exasperating to think the next game may revisit the same issues.

    Not to mention that when you really think about it, transhumanism was such a minor issue in DX, in the grand social themes addressed by the game. Don't have the will or desire to write an essay on Cyberpunk, but it's the human aspect that was always grounded into reality, while the technology was never more than a bit of an allegory. HR addressed the theme the other way around, probably because it's tied to our technology-obsessed early 21st century. The story begins and ends with the tech, with humanity reacting to it. Difference may be subtle, and I know I'm wording it wrong, but HR is very backwards about its approach to Cyberpunk. I think they're genuinely excited about the cool tech they created, giving it center stage, and the end result is somewhat shallow.
    The thing about technology in the original game is that the advanced tech wasn't portrayed as being exceptional because it was simply considered part of the everyday experience in most of the developed world, just like the smartphone is now, the internet before it, and television before that. Every time a notable social advancement appears at the mass market level, it is initially treated with abnormal emphasis and skepticism before fading into the background. Just look at the 24-hour news networks' current obsession with social media. If you look at the timeline between the two titles the pattern doesn't quite match up, but the theory is essentially the same: Before something as socially transformative as wide-spread augmentation would be accepted, it would first be exceptional. The timing they chose doesn't quite work if you try to reconcile real-world 2007 with DX-Verse 2027, but if you look at the games as consistent within their own universe, it fits somewhat more readily.

    The transhumanism-based class division theme does get tiresome though, much like the damsel in distress theme. I'm ready to see it start taking more of a background role. I would also say there's another dimension to these games; I haven't completed IW, but the original game and HR both asked the player a central question. For Deus Ex: "What degree of societal control is acceptable?". For Human Revolution: "When does pursuing transhumanism mean leaving humanity behind?"

    It will be interesting to see what question is asked with the next title.
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  8. #58
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  9. #59
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    The title Deus Ex is excellent, and has dual/triple meaning in the context of the original game.
    It is your opinion that it is excellent, just like it is my opinion that it isn't earth shattering or remotely creative. It may or may not have a dual/triple meaning in the context of the original game but, when looking at what the title is derived from, and how it is used in writing, questions start to pop up.

    Originally Posted by Shralla
    Well, given that it seems like most people still don't even know what the term means or where it originates, I would say it was a pretty solid title. Still gets people asking questions and looking into it.
    Asking questions and looking into something ≠ originality, ground breaking, innovative or any other word used to describe something in a positive manner. The fact that most people still don't know what the term means or originates actually supports what I am saying.

    "Deus Ex." Ok, so you have a title here that people are going to misspell and mispronounce. How innovative.

  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    It may or may not have a dual/triple meaning in the context of the original game but, when looking at what the title is derived from, and how it is used in writing, questions start to pop up.
    That is the whole point, and shows you lack context.

    The game is called Deus Ex because you can choose to become/Helios decides to become the Deus Ex machina ("God from the machine"; to rule the world with what it deems to be objectivity and supreme knowledge, and further understanding of humans through merging with JC, and also it's use of it's algorithms, not held back by the irrationality and subjectivity of human judgement. It is to replace what a large percentage of humans currently refer to as God or the Gods, it becomes a" God from the machine", a God of ultimate judgement (if it's algorithms are as accurate as one would hope).

    That is the primary meaning behind the title 'Deus Ex'.

    Yes, a Deus ex machina is also referred to as a crappy plot device, which the developers/writers of Deus Ex were fully aware of and wanted to ridicule the industry for for relying on said device so much. In fact they wanted to show the industry in general the potential of game design; "I wanted to shame my peers", which may seem arrogant but they damn well succeeded. I am confident in my design concepts and execution also (which are largely inspired by those devs), which is why it is a shame too few are playing my mod.

    Though Deus Ex as a title is bound to lead to confusion, "God from the machine" is the direct translation, not "crappy plot device", so you obviously done a quick google search and jumped to conclusions.

    Deus Ex isn't a game that can be summed up by any review, youtube video, or wiki page. It can only be experienced. If you can get on teh boat (inside joke).
    Though you have to be patient with the game at first because it's crap. At least that is what I (and many others) originally thought when I first played it as a teen. Mods help fix some of those shallow reasons though, those that actually need "fixing".

    Edit: The shaming quote was Warren Spector. I cannot speak for the views of the whole team, but I doubt they disagreed. Also it's not clear if "peers" is referring to the whole industry or a large portion of it.
    At the time I personally believe some teams were exempt from shaming, but many needed and still do need a boot up the backside, now more than ever actually.

    Don't take any of what I have said as fact, naturally, because I am just a guy on the internet.

  11. #61
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    That is the whole point, and shows you lack context.

    The game is called Deus Ex because you can choose to become/Helios decides to become the Deus Ex machina ("God from the machine"; to rule the world with what it deems to be objectivity and supreme knowledge, and further understanding of humans through merging with JC, and also it's use of it's algorithms, not held back by the irrationality and subjectivity of human judgement, or lack thereof. It is to replace what a large percentage of humans currently refer to as God or the Gods, it becomes a" God from the machine", a God of ultimate judgement (if it's algorithms are as accurate as one would hope).

    That is the primary meaning behind the title 'Deus Ex'.

    Yes, a Deus ex machina is also referred to as a crappy plot device, which the developers/writers of Deus Ex were fully aware of and wanted to ridicule the industry for for relying on said device so much. In fact they wanted to show the industry in general the potential of game design; "I wanted to shame my peers", which may seem arrogant but they damn well succeeded. I am confident in my design concepts and execution also (which are largely inspired by those devs), which is why it is a shame too few are playing my mod.

    Though Deus Ex as a title is bound to lead to confusion, "God from the machine" is the direct translation, not "crappy plot device", so you obviously done a quick google search and jumped to conclusions.

    Deus Ex isn't a game that can be summed up by any review, youtube video, or wiki page. It can only be experienced. If you can get on teh boat (inside joke).
    Though you have to be patient with the game at first because it's crap. At least that is what I (and many others) originally thought when I first played it as a teen. Mods help fix those shallow reasons though.
    It's your interpretation that it shows a lack of context. As far as what the developers and writers were fully aware of, I was not with them when they made the game and neither were you and there is no instance, that I know of, of them choosing that title because they wanted to shame their peers. I can understand level and game design, they have gone on record with that but the title? That is your opinion. Also, stop peddling your goods. I don't need to read post after post of you mentioning your mod. You have a mod, great, the world is happy for you.

    Concerning the origins of the title, no Google search or jumping to conclusions was needed. In fact, if you gave more thought to reading comprehension instead of some mod you have to update every full moon, you would see that I said, "In fact, if you were to study the name, what it is derived from and how it is used in writing (from tragedies to modern stories), you will see why it is actually flawed and also come to understand why the series as a whole can be considered a flaw from a literary standpoint." You get it now?

  12. #62
    of them choosing that title because they wanted to shame their peers
    I said no such thing. The whole product was intended to shame their peers, according to an interview I read on the internet somewhere, so again may not be true.

    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    Also, stop peddling your goods. I don't need to read post after post of you mentioning your mod. You have a mod, great, the world is happy for you.
    again, we are all here for a reason or reasons, reasons which are primarily for ourselves. You are here to gather/direct a crowd to file a lawsuit against EM because you got mugged off. I am here to promote my FREE mod, featuring design that attempts to advance DX whilst staying true to it. I am at least looking to know whether I succeeded or not. Which I will find out in due time, I'm just impatient, but people need it drilled into their heads; mods are awesome, and the majority of this forum seems adverse to mods. More would rather buy The Fall or the Directors Cut, both of which are widely accepted to be no good, at least considering they have DX slapped on the box. But you think they are no good at all, at least the DC, and want to sue. As far as i am concerned you mugged yourself off. Always do you research unless you absolutely have no choice...but that still doesn't forgive a broken product and misleading advertising, I know. You wont go through with it anyway, you're just bluffing.

  13. #63
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    I said no such thing.
    At the very least when you said, "Yes, a Deus ex machina is also referred to as a crappy plot device, which the developers/writers of Deus Ex were fully aware of and wanted to ridicule the industry for for relying on said device so much." you implied.

    again, we are all here for a reason or reasons, reasons which are primarily for ourselves. You are here to gather a crowd to file a lawsuit against EM because you got mugged off. I am here to promote my FREE mod, featuring design that attempts to advance DX whilst staying true to it. I am at least looking to know whether I succeeded or not.
    No, I am not here to gather a crowd for anything. I have said nothing about a lawsuit against EM in anythread aside from the threads that pertain to an announced patch and technical issues. You, on the other hand, use every thread and response you can to promote your mod. In fact, in a recent post another member called you out on it, Ashpolt I believe his name is. But in any case that is neither here nor there. We are talking about the title of this fourth game and I would prefer that we stick to it. You edited your post for additional content but it is not something that I intend to go into as it will detract from the current topic. However, I will say that I never said mods weren't good.

  14. #64
    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    No, I am not here to gather a crowd for anything. I have said nothing about a lawsuit against EM in anythread aside from the threads that pertain to an announced patch and technical issues. You, on the other hand, use every thread and response you can to promote your mod. In fact, in a recent post another member called you out on it, Ashpolt I believe his name is. But in any case that is neither here nor there. We are talking about the title of this fourth game and I would prefer that we stick to it. You edited your post for additional content but it is not something that I intend to go into as it will detract from the current topic. However, I will say that I never said mods weren't good.
    Firstly it's difficult to NOT mention my mod when I do amateur work on the series that the majority of us are here for and love. people would rather * about The Fall. Secondly, if you gather the number of threads where I have gone off topic speaking of my mod in the past two years of working on it, it would be like...five maximum.

    I'd rather just leave if I am going to get attacked for going off topic or mentioning my pet project every once in a while, which I have been considering doing (leaving). Stay out of internal affairs anyway, stick to your goal of suing EM, or whatever.

  15. #65
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    Please stop bickering or posts will be deleted. CyberP is welcome to talk about his mod on the forum, and Golden Method is welcome to express his dissatisfaction about the Director's Cut. Both topics are relevant to the community, and this place is quiet enough at the moment as it is without people closing each other down.

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    Concerning the origins of the title, no Google search or jumping to conclusions was needed. In fact, if you gave more thought to reading comprehension instead of some mod you have to update every full moon, you would see that I said, "In fact, if you were to study the name, what it is derived from and how it is used in writing (from tragedies to modern stories), you will see why it is actually flawed and also come to understand why the series as a whole can be considered a flaw from a literary standpoint." You get it now?
    This is highly ironic. Note to mods: not bickering, just stating a fact.

    You failed to comprehend my post, and I don't think that's incompetence on my part. There is no Deus Ex machina (the plot device) In the original Deus Ex, or Human Revolution for that matter. There is however a Deus Ex machina (God from the machine) in the original.

    Also mods don't have to be updated at all. It's similar to professional game development in that regard, well actually no: a modder chooses to update, a developer obeys. Who is the bigger mug? The modder, because no pay

  17. #67
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    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    I'm saying "Deus Ex" is not particularly creative and will never win an award for best named game.
    Could you provide an example of what you consider to be a good/creative title so that we have a frame of reference.

    Originally Posted by Golden Method
    In fact, in a recent post another member called you out on it, Ashpolt I believe his name is.
    *cough*

    Originally Posted by spyhopping
    Both topics are relevant to the community
    but only one has three threads dedicated to it. Is being "on topic" not in the ToU? (I'm guessing. Does anyone actually read them?)

  18. #68
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    Deus Ex is a good title, but it's awkward to say and it must be quite awkward to market. For the longest time I pronounced it "Juice Ex".

    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    but only one has three threads dedicated to it. Is being "on topic" not in the ToU? (I'm guessing. Does anyone actually read them?)
    Yeah, the much revered TOU does mention it but it is to prevent the whole thread being derailed. It's not so that mods can waste their time chopping individual sentences out of people's post that mention something other than the thread title. It's nice to have leeway to allow for some natural conversation.

  19. #69
    Ahh, stupid humans we all are...

    Edit:

    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    but only one has three threads dedicated to it. Is being "on topic" not in the ToU? (I'm guessing. Does anyone actually read them?)
    So you call me out for not abiding to the much revered ToU, yet you admit to never having read the rules which is actually a requirement to even having a presence here. Doh.

    Where is our Deus ex machina?

    "Juice Ex"
    "Deuce Ex" is more common I find.

    About the marketability of the title: I don't think the devs particularly cared tbh. They wanted their intellectual title and nobody was going to stop them Deus Ex isn't for the masses at all. Of course the more people who buy the game the better, but they were clearly passion first. They weren't about to call it Super Terrorist Shooter to stick with market trends, or whatever. Again assumptions.

    ^saying that the original title was to be "troubleshooter", which is much more marketable but again Spector created the "game of his dreams" and the publisher allowed it, no interference (at least that's the impression I get). The game turned a profit, everybody wins.

  20. #70
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    You don't need to stick to a trend to make it marketable, so long as a title is short, unique and memorable you're pretty sorted.

    Deus Ex ticks all those boxes, but sadly it's a little bit awkward and nobody seems to know how to pronounce it the first time they read it. It's a bit like quiona, which is apparently pronounced "KEENWAH!". I can't get used to calling it that- I've tried, and I feel too much of a twit. If I was a dev, I'd have worried about that.

  21. #71
    Originally Posted by spyhopping
    You don't need to stick to a trend to make it marketable, so long and something is short, unique and memorable you're pretty sorted.
    Oh true. I know little about the field and I suck when I try, which is fairly obvious...if you have seen my efforts with my mod.



    ^ yeah the English language perhaps needs a patch. Bit difficult to roll one out effectively though.

    Short, unique and memorable? With Deus Ex that's all boxes checked.

    Edit: quiona is Spanish. Doh. Stoopid Human I learnt that from a machine. The English language still needs a patch though.

  22. #72
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    Lols. It's raining mods.

    You'll be hearing about the Revision mod rather a lot soon from me. I've been happily skipping around in the beta for a few hours over the last few days and it's rather wonderful.

    Keeping on topic as ordered by King TOU: I haven't really expressed an opinion on "Mankind Divided" yet because I can't make up my mind about it. I think it'll be easier to form an opinion once we know what it's the title to- be it book, game, sticker album, shampoo brand or trading card game.

    Originally Posted by CyberP
    O
    Edit: quiona is spanish. Doh. Stoopid Human English language still needs a patch though.
    A while back now I spent 3 years living in Wales, and as I had no desire to learn the language I resisted any prods to incorporate the gutteral noises of the language into place names because it made me feel like an utter twot whenever I tried. Same goes for KEENWAH, for as long as I am talking about it with English speakers. :P

  23. #73
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    Originally Posted by spyhopping
    A while back now I spent 3 years living in Wales, and as I had no desire to learn the language I resisted any prods to incorporate the gutteral noises of the language into place names because it made me feel like an utter twot whenever I tried. Same goes for KEENWAH, for as long as I am talking about it with English speakers. :P
    Haha. My kids had to learn Welsh at school. They never wanted to.
    In fact, none of my friends kids wanted to either. It really is a total waste of time and resources for many who live here.
    Obviously, I can't speak for everyone who lives in Wales, but I live in Pembrokeshire, aka "Little England Beyond Wales".... and the English language rules the waves here.
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  24. #74
    Originally Posted by spyhopping
    Lols. It's raining mods.

    You'll be hearing about the Revision mod rather a lot soon from me. I've been happily skipping around in the beta for a few hours over the last few days and it's rather wonderful.
    Yep. I have been considering making GMDX compatible with it due to community pressure but as said before I am done with modding, temporarily at least.
    OK, not community pressure, but of the handful that have actually played GMDX a few have been requesting it be compatible with Revision so they can have pretty maps and updated gameplay.

    Keeping on topic as ordered by King TOU: I haven't really expressed an opinion on "Mankind Divided" yet because I can't make up my mind about it. I think it'll be easier to form an opinion once we know what it's the title to- be it book, game, sticker album, shampoo brand or trading card game.
    Yes indeed, it's likely to be something in the "Deus Ex Universe" that we will not be happy with.

    A while back now I spent 3 years living in Wales, and as I had no desire to learn the language I resisted any prods to incorporate the gutteral noises of the language into place names because it made me feel like an utter twot whenever I tried. Same goes for KEENWAH, for as long as I am talking about it with English speakers. :P
    This is brilliant.

  25. #75
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    I was wondering if it'd be compatible. It might not be too late to arrange that, the release date is still a little way off in May.

    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    Haha. My kids had to learn Welsh at school. They never wanted to.
    In fact, none of my friends kids wanted to either. It really is a total waste of time and resources for many who live here.
    Obviously, I can't speak for everyone who lives in Wales, but I live in Pembrokeshire, aka "Little England Beyond Wales".... and the English language rules the waves here.
    Ah! I do love it down there, pretty part of the world. I experienced a lot of hostility in the North of Wales though, simply for being and speaking English. Probably explains my grumpiness toward the language :P

    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Yes indeed, it's likely to be something in the "Deus Ex Universe" that we will not be happy with.
    Who knows. We'll be finding out more about the core stuff soon, so perhaps it's that. I wouldn't say no to another book though!

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