Thread: GHOSTING & Ghost rating requirements - All Discussion Thread

GHOSTING & Ghost rating requirements - All Discussion Thread

  1. #26
    Or you can just go in when the room is empty.

  2. #27
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    I think these comments are valid. If AI only turns but does not indicate that she has seen or heard someone, I think that is a first level alert. To me, it is analogous an AI noticing a torch extinguished or a rope hanging in T2 but not drawing sword and acting alarmed. A simple turning with no remark is similar to "must've been rats." And yes, it is not necessary to get all the loot for ghosting a mission.

    n general, if you make everything possible without a struggle, then it becomes too easy and the point is lost.

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by Peter Smith
    I think these comments are valid. If AI only turns but does not indicate that she has seen or heard someone, I think that is a first level alert. To me, it is analogous an AI noticing a torch extinguished or a rope hanging in T2 but not drawing sword and acting alarmed. A simple turning with no remark is similar to "must've been rats." And yes, it is not necessary to get all the loot for ghosting a mission.

    n general, if you make everything possible without a struggle, then it becomes too easy and the point is lost.
    Would the current rules for ghosting need to be updated to accommodate the new game or are they sufficient?

    Has anyone tried the game with iron man mode on? I suppose that mode is an indicator of what constitutes a successful ghost or not since getting spotted equals a complete game restart?

    The devs themselves have stated they have been unable to complete the game with this mode on. So perhaps there are certain rules that we have not allowed for in this game mode?

  4. #29
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    Originally Posted by d4c1981
    Would the current rules for ghosting need to be updated to accommodate the new game or are they sufficient?
    Nope. If the game fails to measure up to the established criteria, then that's too bad for nuThief.

  5. #30
    The devs themselves have stated they have been unable to complete the game with this mode on. So perhaps there are certain rules that we have not allowed for in this game mode?
    I don't think it's actually IMPOSSIBLE to complete the game with all the custom difficulty options on, just so difficult that it was outside any of the devs' patience

    Anyway, I thought they said one of them did manage to do it, in the end? It was in the Rev3Games interview with Stephane Roy.

    Anyway, I'm playing th game with most of the customisable difficulty ON, except for expensive equipment, slow movement, chapter saves only and Iron man. I'm not having any problems with ghosting, so it doesn't strike me that we need an update to the rules.

  6. #31
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    There would never be a need to update the rules. Either nuThief qualifies or doesn't. nuThief either follows true ghosting standards, or it fails trying.

  7. #32
    I'm currently playing purely for the story but do plan to play with all options on after that. I'm sure it's going to be a flipping nightmare... :-)

  8. #33
    If ghosting (not even first level alert) is not possible in a specific location in a level, try to return to that place later on. NPCs will often times leave positions when you advance in the mission.

    A good example is the bank heist mission: There is a piece of loot right next to the first guard who is standing fixed on the balcony. You cannot get it without being seen or raising an alert. If you continue the mission and steal the main objective though, the guard will suddenly start to patrol, leaving the piece of loot free to grab. This NPC behavior is also true for the opium room in the house of blossoms level.

  9. #34
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    See replies below in magenta.

    Originally Posted by d4c1981
    Would the current rules for ghosting need to be updated to accommodate the new game or are they sufficient?

    I don't know. I have not played Thief 4 yet, and it will be a while until I do. I would be tempted to say, see how you can do with the current rules. If something becomes problematic, and you want me to be involved in the discussion, you might send me a PM or start a new thread in the Eidos Classic Thief Series forums, Thief Missions, where I am more likely to see it. For those who don't know, I authored the original ghost rules with help from many others around 10 years ago.

    Has anyone tried the game with iron man mode on? I suppose that mode is an indicator of what constitutes a successful ghost or not since getting spotted equals a complete game restart?

    Iron man ghosting is not something I would care to do, except maybe in ad-hoc competitions with other players. Playing alone, I think you would invite frustration by having to restart the mission multiple times. Clearly, ironman ghost is harder than ironman regular because in regular play you can run and hide if you are discovered.

    The devs themselves have stated they have been unable to complete the game with this mode on. So perhaps there are certain rules that we have not allowed for in this game mode?

    What additional rules would you propose? In T1 and T2, all the ghosting rules were self-enforced by an honor code. In this game there are automatic goal setting and enforcement procedures. I haven't tried them, so I don't know how to compare the original honor method with the automatic enforcement.

  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by ggsnake
    If ghosting (not even first level alert) is not possible in a specific location in a level, try to return to that place later on. NPCs will often times leave positions when you advance in the mission.
    This may be true for the actual chapter missions but so far I can't say that this is the case for the side missions in The City Hub and The City Hub itself. There are a few NPCs that are firmly rooted near some precious loot that you simply cannot lift without them getting suspicious of something (wondering about an opened door, hearing Garrett breaking a vase to get to the loot, and so on) and they will not move a goddamn inch.

    And yes, this may deviate from any 'official' ghosting rules, but I consider even suspicions raised an absolute no go for properly ghosting. Bit of a bummer that this playstyle is not supported.

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by Peter Smith
    See replies below in magenta.
    Thanks Peter, I will be starting a new game soon with all thief mods on and will report back on my progress. If I could record my efforts I would but I am not sure how to record? Any ideas anyone?

    I also would like to be able to perform a perfect supreme ghost of NuThief if that's at all possible.

  12. #37
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    I have just investigated quite a number (6?) of screen recorders. The well known Fraps is garbage to me. It makes huge files, and the free version only runs for 30 s. Bandicam is the only screen recorder I tested that is capable of making a screen recording without stutter. You start and stop it during the Thief game play by using hot keys.

    Bandicam has a limited number of Codecs. One of the codecs it has is H.264 using CUDA, meaning that if you have a recent Nvidia card it does massively parallel calculations on the card, so it does not interfere with the Thief rendering, or vice versa. I was using Thief 2. With H.264, Bandicam makes amazingly small files. Thief 4 may be even more of a problem to record, so try it.

    In order to play back the Bandicam videos directly, each person (other than you) would need to install some codecs. This is unfavorable, so the best approach is to run the Bandicam video through a converter program that uses MPEG 4 for video output and MP3 for audio output, which Bandicam cannot do by itself. I used the VSDC Free Video Editor for this, which also can be used to edit color of the video -- one of my main concerns, since Thief 2 is too dark. You can also use the editor to downsize the resolution, making a smaller output file. This is necessary if you have a large, full-resolution capture file. The VSDC editor is difficult to learn without good documentation, but it is worth the effort.

    I'd be interested to know if this works for you.

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by Peter Smith
    I have just investigated quite a number (6?) of screen recorders. The well known Fraps is garbage to me. It makes huge files, and the free version only runs for 30 s. Bandicam is the only screen recorder I tested that is capable of making a screen recording without stutter. You start and stop it during the Thief game play by using hot keys.

    Bandicam has a limited number of Codecs. One of the codecs it has is H.264 using CUDA, meaning that if you have a recent Nvidia card it does massively parallel calculations on the card, so it does not interfere with the Thief rendering, or vice versa. I was using Thief 2. With H.264, Bandicam makes amazingly small files. Thief 4 may be even more of a problem to record, so try it.

    In order to play back the Bandicam videos directly, each person (other than you) would need to install some codecs. This is unfavorable, so the best approach is to run the Bandicam video through a converter program that uses MPEG 4 for video output and MP3 for audio output, which Bandicam cannot do by itself. I used the VSDC Free Video Editor for this, which also can be used to edit color of the video -- one of my main concerns, since Thief 2 is too dark. You can also use the editor to downsize the resolution, making a smaller output file. This is necessary if you have a large, full-resolution capture file. The VSDC editor is difficult to learn without good documentation, but it is worth the effort.

    I'd be interested to know if this works for you.
    Apparently I can share my footage via the share button on the PS4. It records up to 15 minutes of gameplay per video. The only catch is that I have to upload it to facebook. So what I may do is create a dummy facebook account, upload footage, download the footage and then use a video converter to convert it to a media I can use for Youtube.

    This seems like a lot of work just to record a game via a console. So I will test it out and see what happens. I will keep you updated here or via PM.

    P.S 100 posts! Whoop!

  14. #39
    Well I just tried to ghost Ectors side quest nr. 2 "Silence is golden". I see no way of doing it without causing two first level alerts, which really is a disappointment.

    For people who are really interested or want to help:

    1. After entering the cellar and opening the chest, one of the guards is patroling down there, so you can actually enter the second floor without an alert. However, the guard only takes a few seconds before going upstairs again, standing still in a place where you cannot get past him without throwing something or hitting the light switch with a blunt arrow.

    2. After stealing the main objective, you cannot leave the building through the main door, as the outdoor guard who stopped patrolling will see you. The only other way out is through the cellar again, but you need to shoot down the box to get out (raises first level or even second level alert, not sure).

    Any ideas?

  15. #40
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    Originally Posted by ggsnake
    1. After entering the cellar and opening the chest, one of the guards is patroling down there, so you can actually enter the second floor without an alert. However, the guard only takes a few seconds before going upstairs again, standing still in a place where you cannot get past him without throwing something or hitting the light switch with a blunt arrow.
    Afaik it all depends on how you aproach this mission and where you make an entry, going through the cellar first did nothing for me and the two guards on ground level made it impossible to proceed without atleast raising any suspicion. Going first for the room with the safe(but not opening it) triggered a scripted event where the guy who slept upstairs goes down to take the route of the first guard who in exchange positions himself with his back towards the ground level doors looking straight at the dresser near the crate while the other one who stood by the stairs goes down to the cellar. If you time everything perfectly(one guard goes down stairs, one goes for the front door before turning around and the top lvl npc goes to the room with the safe) you should be able to turn off the ground level light without anyone noticing(yes, the AI is that stupid), get upstairs unnoticed to turn off the alarm, then loot everything and leave.
    Originally Posted by ggsnake
    2. After stealing the main objective, you cannot leave the building through the main door, as the outdoor guard who stopped patrolling will see you. The only other way out is through the cellar again, but you need to shoot down the box to get out (raises first level or even second level alert, not sure).
    Blow out the light near the door before you enter the building, that way you won't raise any suspicion indicators while leaving.

  16. #41
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    Originally Posted by auricgoldfinger
    I always felt the opportunist category felt a bit phony. It might have functioned better to just have ghost and predator.
    Yes, I agree. Raising suspicions should not count so long as you are not seen. Even using a bottle to distract the guards should not really count, especially outside where the wind could have caused it to fall or inside where vibrations can cause it. Providing you are never seen and never give any indication that you have been there apart from missing loot, things like dousing torches and such can be attributed to natural causes, those torches only have a finite life before they burn out. Unless you are seen or heard doing it, you are still a ghost and the only time they know there's been a thief is when they find the loot missing.

    I have been a security guard in real life long enough to know that some noises can be caused naturally and lights go out for no reason, (blown bulbs and dodgy electrical connections), but I still investigate just in case. That would be considered a raised suspicion, unless the lights have been manually switched off, I would not be alert to a possible intruder unless I saw something.
    A bird in the hand is... Lunch tonight.

  17. #42
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    Originally Posted by Tryst
    Raising suspicions should not count so long as you are not seen. Even using a bottle to distract the guards should not really count.
    I disagree with your interpretation. I suggest that you (all) read the original ghost rules and go from there. The key thing is not suspicion but the level of alert, as explained below. Also, It is not just being seen that counts. It is also being heard.

    There are different alert levels, or levels of suspicion, in T1 and T2, so suspicion is not an absolute measure. First and second level alerts are explained by numerous examples in the rules. Please read them. First level alerts are OK in normal ghosting but disallowed in supreme. Second level alerts are busts.

    The most common example of a first level alert is when a guard stands in place and mutters, e.g., "Did I hear something? I guess not. It must've been rats." That is OK in normal ghosting. If the guard goes into a search behavior, even if he does not see you, it is a second level alert, which is a bust.

    An exception would be a common trick in T2 FMs in which a guard always raises his sword at a certain position of his patrol. That is not an alert -- it is a motion script, so that would be allowed. You see, it can be subtle.

    Throwing bottles and using noise arrows as distractions are specifically disallowed in the current rules. These actions are avoidable, so I can think of no reason to allow them. To me, the phrase "should not really count" is wishful thinking. On the other hand, if none of the Thief 4 missions could be played without using such distractions, maybe it would be time to consider a revision of the rules that is specific to Thief 4.

    I have not played Thief 4 yet, so I can't say how the original rules work for Thief 4. I can only describe the original intent, as I have tried to do here. If the original rules do not work for Thief 4, then it might be beneficial for you all to suggest some revisions to the rules and/or interpretations that apply to Thief 4. The problem is, without something in writing, people will have their own conflicting interpretations.

    I hope that if you do write something it remains consistent with the intent of the original rules. I think modifications are OK if they account for unavoidable situations that are unique to Thief 4.

  18. #43
    Thief 4 is tricky. If you save your game and have to reload the NPCs sometimes change their direction and path. Silence is Golden is the only mission that I have been able to collect all loot so far:

    Silence Is Golden (quest to find voice box at oxheart Perry's) 160G for job completed + 208G from loot 29/29 and collectibles found 3/3 + 215 bonus for Lifting all loot items + 350G for Remain undetected.

    I don't really recall the details of this mission...refresh my memory. Is it the one by a dock where you need to drop down into the cellar in order to avoid the dog or is it the one where the servant keeps getting something for the master...or is it another one? According to Steam I've been playing Thief for 77.3 hours and some of it was late night which is mostly a blur.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by Rockn-Roll
    Silence Is Golden (quest to find voice box at oxheart Perry's)
    Perry's is the pawnbrokers near the start of the dock area.

    It seems even crouching and walking behind a crate gets you opportunist. I just finished the game (again) this time with 730 points on and got at least half opportunist for every level except the last which I got Ghost on. In the last I foolishly used 2 water arrows 1 I didn't even need to use and also used 2 vents and even then it was only 3/4 Ghost.

  20. #45
    bros honestly ghosting in this game is boring i prefer to run towards the guard music wubwubwub i beat the crap out of him then run off while they are like what the hell is going on and im like hahaha fooled ya wubwubwawbwub i need a scrillex mod so ill have more audio tracks

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by Rockn-Roll
    I don't really recall the details of this mission...refresh my memory. Is it the one by a dock where you need to drop down into the cellar in order to avoid the dog or is it the one where the servant keeps getting something for the master...or is it another one?
    The first one.

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by zwanzig_zwoelf
    bros honestly ghosting in this game is boring i prefer to run towards the guard music wubwubwub i beat the crap out of him then run off while they are like what the hell is going on and im like hahaha fooled ya wubwubwawbwub i need a scrillex mod so ill have more audio tracks
    Gotta admit, that is pretty fun.

  23. #48
    Originally Posted by Vozhd
    I don't think raising suspicions counts against a Ghost status, although I can't say for sure. You definitely cannot steal certain items in the game without raising suspicion, however suspicious does not mean alerted to your presence.

    You'll find throughout the experience that the guards are very harsh when it comes to their cone of view. It follows their head, not the way their body is facing, as it should be. So even if you thought you're slithering by a guard, he might turn his head and catch a hooded fellow with a Santa Claus present bag snooping about. This can make ghosting that much harder.
    Raising suspicion does count against ghost. I know because I got a perfect ghost run - kept everything the way it was before by closing doors and cupboards I opened, not blowing out candles, not using any arrows of any type and stealing all loot. However, with one piece of loot, the way the room was setup up, there was no way to get to the loot without using distraction as the idiot was bloody well staring right at the loot and he did not move ever! So, I had no choice but to throw a bottle outside of the room to get the loot. When I was done, I got the 400 G for remaining undetected but only 3/4 of the circle said I was ghost and the 1/4 said opportunist for raising suspicions 1 time.

    Pretty stupid considering there was absolutely no other way of getting that piece of loot.

  24. #49
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    Originally Posted by BlayneRTFM
    Pretty stupid considering there was absolutely no other way of getting that piece of loot.
    The spirit of ghosting is that you play according to an agreed set of rules, and if you fail to achieve it, then so be it. There is no disgrace in failure. That concept applies to ghosting the mission as a whole as well as not getting a particular piece of loot. It does not make sense to change the rules to prevent failure. When the rules were first made up, quite a few missions were not ghostable. It should be difficult.

    So, if that piece of loot can't be ghosted, you need to avoid taking it to claim success. If that loot is essential to completing the mission, then it means that the mission can't be ghosted unless some clever person finds a way.

    EDIT: as far as suspicions are concerned, I commented on that above. There are two things to consider here. The original rules (which I understand) and the Thief 4 developers' interpretation of them (which I don't yet understand). These could be different. As I said earlier, distraction alerts are not allowed in the original rules.

  25. #50
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    Originally Posted by Peter Smith
    So, if that piece of loot can't be ghosted, you need to avoid taking it to claim success. If that loot is essential to completing the mission, then it means that the mission can't be ghosted.
    That's exactly how i understand ghosting. I don't know why people here think that one MUST be able to ghost and get 100% loot at the same time.

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