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Thread: Reducing Lara's breast size is misguided and wrong.

  1. #1

    Reducing Lara's breast size is misguided and wrong.

    I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.

    We know CD made an artistic choice to have Lara be less busty in the latest game, plus they did this in 2005 too. I'm sure it was a marketing decision made in a boardroom, and it's a misguided one.

    This artistic choice is a very superficial and misguided way for them to try and downplay the "sexy" roots of her character. But oddly enough that choice is the most shallow of all, because it implies a person's body proportions determine who they are.

    The backlash against very normal human anatomy that this kind of thing represents kind of disturbs me. There's nothing inherently "naughty" about breasts no matter what size they are. D-cups are no more or less naughty than B-cups for example, and beauty is all personal taste anyway.

    It's artistic cowardice, as odd as the subject may seem. It is in it's own way bigotry against people with certain body types. I've read from busty actresses that they can't get some roles because people say their breasts are a "distraction", stuff like that. It's kind of repugnant, honestly.

    If Lara did happen to have large breasts in these new games, and was still characterized exactly as she is, wouldn't that be a good message? Isn't it a shame that certain body types are considered "taboo"? If their idea is that Lara is more "normal" or "relatable" now, what does that say about women with big breasts? Why would her anatomy have anything to do with that?

    I know it's just one artistic detail, but in a way I do find it to be unfortunate, and it's a very unfortunate idea that people who happen to have a certain bra size are considered limited in the roles they'll be portrayed in. This is a character who was notably big breasted, I think having the character be like that and kind of having the message that hey, the body is just the body, it doesn't determine who you are. That would be a positive thing.

    While the art style is more realistic than in the old stylized days, having big breasts has never been an unrealistic aspect itself. People come in all shapes and sizes. There's no need for these strange body shame issues.

    Nobody complains about Lara having as curvy a derriere as ever, and many are more attracted to that than breasts, plus it's what we see in the camera. And nobody is complaining about the constant very small waist sizes. Lara is of course still an idealized character physically, whether this is automatically bad is another issue, but blaming breasts is wrong. Making her less busty in an attempt to be "inoffensive" is actually an offensive thing.

    This character is a good opportunity to fight these prejudices, a person who happens to be large breasted presented with respect and taken seriously.

  2. #2
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    I agree with most of your points and I think you hit the nail on the head with certain issues. There is indeed a lot of unnecessary resistance/dislike towards large breasts and beautiful women in general. And a lot of it is hypocritical and bigoted in itself, as you said.

    We've discussed the Lara's boobs issue over and over (we especially had a lengthy discussion on the "realistic" aspect of Lara's boobs in this thread I remember) and there are people who like it and people who don't like it. Some of the people's reasons are legit, but definitely not all of them.

    I completely disagree with those who claim that Lara having smaller boobs now is more "realistic" or "normal". That couldn't be further from the truth. And no, I'm not considering the early promotional art of classic Lara

    "Relatable", however, is a personal thing and there is no "universal truth" to that. Though it also bears the question if that isn't just as superficial as the opposite

    At least that's my view on it. No offence to anyone

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho_Kenshin View Post
    I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.
    I have said before: how a main character looks is one of the most important things in a videogame, so I think it's perfectly fine to discuss this, even though there's people who are like: 'oh here we go talk about boobs again!'

    Having said that: over the years, as graphics in games have improved more and more, the characters also have been portrayed more and more realistically. Compared to the TR9 Lara model the models in Legend and Anniversary and even Underworld were cartoonish, with unrealistic body proportions, giant eyes and lips and such. I am not saying that is wrong because it works fine within a less realistic, somewhat cartoonish world. (although Team Ninja always finds a way to make their female characters look ridiculous, even within the crazy world of their games)

    But for TR9 they descided to drop most of the cartoony elements and go for a world that is more grounded in reality. And in such a case, giant boobs don't work anymore - in combination with a slim body. A breast is mostly made up of fat, and if the body is losing it's fat so do the breasts. Thin girls have small breasts, chubby girls have bigger ones - there's always exceptions but that's basicly it. And I think we all agree that Lara is not the type of person to go get implants.

    It would be so weird and out of place to have this good looking realistic world and then all of the sudden a character with a totaly unbelievable body type comes up. It just doesn't work from a creative point of view. And speaking for myself: I find it very unattractive if a girl has these giant boobs in combination with a thin body and a flat scrawny arse - the body just doesn't seem right, it's not in balance, and it looks fake. That is one of my many problems with the Underworld character model.

    So I think you've got it all wrong when you're saying that her bustyness is downplayed to be less offensive: in fact I think she still is busty - again, busty for that body type - I don't see that many girls as slim as that with C cups or whatever it is she's got (I don't know I don't wear bra's). If it truly was their intention to remove all the bustyness out of her she would have been as flat as the girl in the first Uncharted game. But that is not the case, she's still relatively busty. And I am totaly fine with that, because her body doesn't look unbalanced, though I think it would become so if she was going to get any larger than that. So for me Crystal Dynamics did it perfectly fine.

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    Jurre, I think you perfectly exemplified the OP's point about body shaming and the misconception that slim bodies with large (not giant) beasts are unrealistic, cartoonish, or weird. Just because you haven't seen many of them doesn't mean they do not exist in large numbers and that it's "unbalanced". It's all about genetics and dietary habits.

    And if you don't take into account the aforementioned early promotional material of classic Lara, which I said I do not consider, and just focus on how Lara actually looked like in-game, you will notice that she never actually had a "giant chest".

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    I really appreciate your posts Driber, very well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho_Kenshin View Post
    I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.

    We know CD made an artistic choice to have Lara be less busty in the latest game, plus they did this in 2005 too. I'm sure it was a marketing decision made in a boardroom, and it's a misguided one.

    This artistic choice is a very superficial and misguided way for them to try and downplay the "sexy" roots of her character. But oddly enough that choice is the most shallow of all, because it implies a person's body proportions determine who they are.

    The backlash against very normal human anatomy that this kind of thing represents kind of disturbs me. There's nothing inherently "naughty" about breasts no matter what size they are. D-cups are no more or less naughty than B-cups for example, and beauty is all personal taste anyway.

    It's artistic cowardice, as odd as the subject may seem. It is in it's own way bigotry against people with certain body types. I've read from busty actresses that they can't get some roles because people say their breasts are a "distraction", stuff like that. It's kind of repugnant, honestly.

    If Lara did happen to have large breasts in these new games, and was still characterized exactly as she is, wouldn't that be a good message? Isn't it a shame that certain body types are considered "taboo"? If their idea is that Lara is more "normal" or "relatable" now, what does that say about women with big breasts? Why would her anatomy have anything to do with that?

    I know it's just one artistic detail, but in a way I do find it to be unfortunate, and it's a very unfortunate idea that people who happen to have a certain bra size are considered limited in the roles they'll be portrayed in. This is a character who was notably big breasted, I think having the character be like that and kind of having the message that hey, the body is just the body, it doesn't determine who you are. That would be a positive thing.

    While the art style is more realistic than in the old stylized days, having big breasts has never been an unrealistic aspect itself. People come in all shapes and sizes. There's no need for these strange body shame issues.

    Nobody complains about Lara having as curvy a derriere as ever, and many are more attracted to that than breasts, plus it's what we see in the camera. And nobody is complaining about the constant very small waist sizes. Lara is of course still an idealized character physically, whether this is automatically bad is another issue, but blaming breasts is wrong. Making her less busty in an attempt to be "inoffensive" is actually an offensive thing.

    This character is a good opportunity to fight these prejudices, a person who happens to be large breasted presented with respect and taken seriously.

    They do but why can't you accept that reboot Lara operates in a different universe than the previous Lara? Lara is not small chested by any means but the way you are acting is if they totally removed her boobs all together. Are you posting this here too because you didn't really get anywhere on TRF?

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    Murph, how is "different universe" negating his points?

    If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?

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  8. #8
    People with large breasts do indeed exist (surprise?) but the problem is, whereas in the real world, some (or many) people do have large breasts, in videogames, until a few years ago, almost every female character had large or super-emphasized breasts. Thats why I can't take the real-world-women-are-busty-too argument seriously. In real world, some women are busty (to that degree) but in vidyagaems everyone is busty. In the last few years thankfully we are moving away from that situation. That is what people mean when they say she's more "realistic" now. Because as others have said, women with large breasts do indeed exist and so there is nothing wrong if Lara had large breasts too, only that if we are to apply this logic to every female characters, we'd be back to the beginning. And to be sure this exists on the other side too. Notice how most of the male protagonists in videogames are unbelievably chiseled and posses the body befitting a greek god? How many fat or really skinny male characters do we see in videogames? This thing exists on both sides and both of them can excuse themselves by saying oh! such people do exist in real life, so any attempts to change them is body shaming! But taken as a whole they all build a very very non-real lifelike universe. But then again, as you said, she always had largeish breasts, so they should not have changed this defining feature of hers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?
    I'd be totally down for something like that. My Skyrim character is essentially a black Lara..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?
    But that who be changing who/what Lara is - Changing her boobs doesn't have the same effect, her boobs aren't who she is, if you get what I mean?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by a big house View Post
    Changing her boobs doesn't have the same effect, her boobs aren't who she is, if you get what I mean?
    Seeing the numerous ragestorms over her boobs over multiple forums I'm a little confused about that lol

    And yes, I must admit that even though she has less.. weight than before she is still busty. It is just reduced a little to fit the tone of the game better. If they had anything against boobs they'd make her a manchester. Which she isn't anywhere near, atm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Murph, how is "different universe" negating his points?

    If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?
    Because you can't use old Lara as an example when talking about new Lara. I mean does anyone here other than the OP even think that Lara is small chested? If you've played the game and i'm sure you have Driber since your name is in the credits at the end of it, you'd agree that Lara still has a chest on her.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    Are you posting this here too because you didn't really get anywhere on TRF?
    Oh gosh, so he went looking for support here after not finding it there?

    Don't you know that people are the same where ever you go? There is good and bad, in eeeveryone.... Ebony and Ivory - Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder.

    Seriously, what works and doesn't work from a creative point of view is not determined by just logic: it's an assessment of what feels good to the great majority of people. And in that regard I think Crystal Dynamics did almost everything right. And that includes Lara's cupsize.

    The fact that there are still people complaining about this or that stems from the simple fact that you can't please everyone. The great majority is all you can hope to achieve. Please the great majority and it's mission accomplished.

  13. #13
    You could find women with Lara's proportions in real life but I think the art style was meant to portray a cartoony stylized image of curvaceous woman not an actual real one.

    They've reinterpreted that for a different art style and I'd say mostly kept everything recognizably intact. She still has the curves and those are definitely not small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pirate1802 View Post
    People with large breasts do indeed exist (surprise?) but the problem is, whereas in the real world, some (or many) people do have large breasts, in videogames, until a few years ago, almost every female character had large or super-emphasized breasts. Thats why I can't take the real-world-women-are-busty-too argument seriously. In real world, some women are busty (to that degree) but in vidyagaems everyone is busty.
    Uhm, no. That is a stereotype about women in videogames. I can show you plenty of female videogame characters that don't have Lola Ferari sized boobs, lol.

    (Not that I think Lara has those )

    Quote Originally Posted by pirate1802 View Post
    In the last few years thankfully we are moving away from that situation. That is what people mean when they say she's more "realistic" now.
    It's probably not a good idea to speak for others. While I'm sure some people will agree with you there, I'm also sure many people don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by pirate1802 View Post
    Because as others have said, women with large breasts do indeed exist and so there is nothing wrong if Lara had large breasts too
    I've seen sooooo many people who had a problem with Lara having large breasts. So I do not think your argument works here.

    Quote Originally Posted by pirate1802 View Post
    only that if we are to apply this logic to every female characters, we'd be back to the beginning.
    Okay, so according to your reasoning, it would be perfectly okay to change like 80% of all videogame characters from men to women? After all, the vast majority of videogame characters are male, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by pirate1802 View Post
    And to be sure this exists on the other side too. Notice how most of the male protagonists in videogames are unbelievably chiseled and posses the body befitting a greek god?
    Yeah, and I don't have a problem with those, either. Despite the fact that they look nothing like me and I can't relate to those characters on a physical basis.

    How many fat or really skinny male characters do we see in videogames?
    How many transgender people or siamese twins do we see in videogames? I can make this argument just about any possible sort of person.

    This thing exists on both sides and both of them can excuse themselves by saying oh! such people do exist in real life, so any attempts to change them is body shaming!
    In the case of Lara, it is definitely an issue, you cannot ignore that. Not everyone thinks this way, but a lot sure do. Just watch the idiotic YT comments to older TR videos...

    But taken as a whole they all build a very very non-real lifelike universe. But then again, as you said, she always had largeish breasts, so they should not have changed this defining feature of hers.
    Did you just contract everything you wrote prior to this?

    That's the exactly the point the OP was making, lol.

    I'd be totally down for something like that. My Skyrim character is essentially a black Lara..
    haha

    Okay, you're just joking and I assume you got my point, based on that previous line you wrote, heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by a big house View Post
    But that who be changing who/what Lara is - Changing her boobs doesn't have the same effect, her boobs aren't who she is, if you get what I mean?
    Lara's personality is not defined by her boobs, no. And that is, ironically, exactly the point

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    Because you can't use old Lara as an example when talking about new Lara.
    Uhm, yes you can.

    What you can't do is say "because Uncharted/TLOU/[insert any other game here] did xyz, so should TR follow this route".

    Comparing one TR game to another TR game is entirely fair game, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    I mean does anyone here other than the OP even think that Lara is small chested? If you've played the game and i'm sure you have Driber since your name is in the credits at the end of it, you'd agree that Lara still has a chest on her.
    I don't think TR9 Lara is flat chested, no. But that isn't the point, and I'm betting it wasn't the point of the OP, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Ninja_ View Post
    You could find women with Lara's proportions in real life but I think the art style was meant to portray a cartoony stylized image of curvaceous woman not an actual real one.
    I think you can only make that argument with the aforementioned early promotional material of classic Lara.

    By the time Lara was going through the LAU era, her boobs were perfectly "normal" (I hate using that word in this discussion, for obvious reasons) and I can't believe anyone would seriously argue that they were "cartoonish".

    I think it might be a good idea to separate the discussion about the stylized face, eyes, mouth, etc. from her boobs for the sake of the discussion

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    i think she was generally big breasted in the first games. yes, we have big breasted women out there (if they are real ) and thats all fine but in games they sure are over the top at times. just look at the latest mortal kombat.
    i have many female friends and they actually complained about laras breasts that she never could run around like that. now with the new one, they say now its more believable and suitable to her.

    you certainly got some good points there. i personally think that the new lara still has big breasts but in a more proportioned way that suits her body size. if you look at sam, her breasts are far more smaller but it also suits her body type and that generally asian women have smaller breasts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    yes, we have big breasted women out there (if they are real )
    I don't think that is very funny, TBH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    and thats all fine but in games they sure are over the top at times.
    Exactly - at times

    And give me one good reason they couldn't or shouldn't be, at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    just look at the latest mortal kombat.
    You're using MK as example of "realism" here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    i have many female friends and they actually complained about laras breasts that she never could run around like that.
    Non-fan women complaining about Lara's boobs? Stop the press!



    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    now with the new one, they say now its more believable and suitable to her.
    Women preferring to see smaller breasts on other women really isn't any news, Metal. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    if you look at sam, her breasts are far more smaller but it also suits her body type and that generally asian women have smaller breasts.
    But Lara is not Asian, is she?

    Yes, Asian women generally have small to medium sized breasts. But even if they didn't and if for the sake of argument Asian women were known for having a large chest, then people shouldn't mind if Sam was the exception to the rule and had small boobs because she is a new character

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post

    if you look at sam, her breasts are far more smaller but it also suits her body type and that generally asian women have smaller breasts.
    Yeah it's good you bring up Sam: because that shows that inside Lara's world -just like in the real world- Lara's cupsize is bigger than usual. So what it says is: Lara has big breasts but it's not the norm: she is just bustier than usual women.

    It's not like in the Team Ninja games (or now they're called Techmo Koei or whatever) were every woman has these triple H mutant boobs bouncing around based on physics that would make Isaac Newton eat his own wig. In that regard I do agree with the OP that Crystal Dynamics avoided turning it into a boob fest, where Sam and Reyes would also have big sizes, but I am happy that they didn't do that because I think it would be so childish and so much catering towards the lowest common denominator...

  18. #18
    I also thought it was weird how they made her into a generic girl, that was my first impression when seeing the concept art of the new Lara Croft. In forums online, when it was released noone cared about it since it had no pop, no appeal, and didnt look like Lara Croft. From what I understand the devs who made the new game, hated the older games or something soap operish like that, so they did what they wanted to change it as much as possible to make it their own creation, but it turned out pretty bad. Maybe they can return to the classic style that everyone came to know and love as an icon. Not sure if they can pull it off but they have my support

    Poor Adam Jensen and others get the worst of these people who always want to attack people because of their looks, poor Adam and his Augs, and Lara with her endowed chest T_T. Oddly both of those are the things that make them iconic

    *I dont remember the new Lara's but ever being the focus of the camera, hmmmm. But it should be Lara is supposed to be a super woman, super smart, super sexy, super athletic, just take other random words and put super in front of them and thats Lara Croft, not a generic cookie cutter looking character which is what they ended up with. If I recall they even trashed her sophisticated voice giving her one that sounds like it smoked 2 packs a day with a shot of whiskey or something.

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    BridgetFisher, I probably didn't see the discussions you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that you've been lied to. I seriously doubt the devs ever said that they hated the old games. That sounds to me more something that some bitter fans would make up

    Good point about Lara's boobs being iconic, though. I do think that's indeed another reason why some people dislike the (radical) change - it was as much part of Lara as her braid, dual guns and backpack. It made Lara stand out, there's no denying that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    BridgetFisher, I probably didn't see the discussions you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that you've been lied to. I seriously doubt the devs ever said that they hated the old games. That sounds to me more something that some bitter fans would make up

    Good point about Lara's boobs being iconic, though. I do think that's indeed another reason why some people dislike the (radical) change - it was as much part of Lara as her braid, dual guns and backpack. It made Lara stand out, there's no denying that
    Again though she's not small or lacking anything in that area and to be honest I think reboot Lara looks far better all around than any previous iteration of Lara.

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    Her boobs are big to me but nice big xD

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    BridgetFisher, I probably didn't see the discussions you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that you've been lied to. I seriously doubt the devs ever said that they hated the old games. That sounds to me more something that some bitter fans would make up

    Good point about Lara's boobs being iconic, though. I do think that's indeed another reason why some people dislike the (radical) change - it was as much part of Lara as her braid, dual guns and backpack. It made Lara stand out, there's no denying that
    I noticed alot of people were mad about the missing braid, haha. Any change will cause that kind of response, maybe like it shoulda been a small change. Whenever things change too much it seems bad in anything. Goes against that whole if it aint broke dont fix it idea. I think most of the people upset over her endowed chest was over a very outspoken minority which is always louder, as can be seen in any political system.

    * I thought and still think like most people new lara is boring and forgettable looking, just like if they took Duke Nukem and made him into a regular looking guy, scrawny or fat, take your pick, he would also end up lost to the same fate. Or why not take the hitman guy and give him hair, tone him down to make him more normal looking modeling his character on Shia Labeouf.

    I dont think it matters if people like it or hated her past braid, boobs, looks, etc. I just reference the appeal of her as a gaming icon and legend meaning all those things people loved and hated made her famous. Even people who didnt like her looks would send emails, start discussions online, start petitions, all over a video game character, now that is pretty epic.

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    @BridgetFisher, Wait a minute, where did you get the idea that CD hate Tomb Raider so much that's why they changed it? You don't like the new game, fair enough, but it seems like your trying to say they made the game so bad on purpose or something. It's clear they're passionate about TR and it's fair enough, imo that they want to make it theirs instead of forever being in someone else's shadow. They're just trying to evolve it to suit modern gaming standards.

    To actually address the topic. When CD redesigned Lara for the reboot, I doubt they changed her bust size as they felt her large breasts were objectionable or naughty/wrong in some way. Yes, they're trying to make Lara relate-able, but as a package, not just her breasts. Her bust size now is more in line with her frame, her body shape, which is athletic. Her breasts are still above average in size, but more in proportion to her size overall. No one is saying big breasts are wrong or unrealistic. Sure, they could have kept her bra cup size a DD or whatever it was, but maybe they felt it didn't seem right on this athletic frame? And when they say they want Lara to be relate-able, reducing her bra size isn't it. They mean in her personality, her vulnerabilities as a person. I don't see reducing her bra size as misguided or wrong or offensive. Yes, it is a design choice, one that fits how they view their new Lara: Athletic, an everyday girl with an achievable look. I doubt they looked too deeply into if her boobs should be a C cup or a DD cup, but they just wanted a natural look that fits with what they see as an athletic body. And, no, I'm not saying large breast are unnatural. Just that CD's design choice is different to Core's.

    I have seen interviews from Core where they have admitted that Lara was built to be a exaggerated version of a woman. So she was never meant to be realistic before. She had big breasts and a waist that didn't look like it could support them, especially considering what she did. Lara was a caricature. Part of that may have been down to the graphics, which were cartoony in style. Core designed her one way and CD attempted to keep that at first, but with graphics allowing for ever more realism in the environments, Lara's extremely thin waist coupled with almost gravity defying breasts just kind of looked out of place, especially as they were apparently trying to also make her more human. Real women do have large breasts, but combine it with a tiny waist and it looks like her frame wouldn't be able to cope with that weight and it does look unrealistic that Lara would be able to do half the stuff she does with that body.

    And let's be honest here. Lara's image, her out of the game image that is, outside of the fan-base (so, people who had heard of her, but not played the games) was pretty much based on her huge boobs..."Lara Croft? Oh the chick with the boobs, lol" kind of attitude, which is all wrong. The fans knew that Lara was so much more than that, so it's fair enough that there was some objection to this attitude. Lara shouldn't be judged on her chest alone, right? As a result (partially), TR wasn't taken seriously. It's possible that CD are attempting to take away that misconception about the character, and part of that is reducing her bust size a little.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Murph, how is "different universe" negating his points?

    If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?
    Well now my hopes have been raised.

  25. #25
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    ^Don't you mean dashed? I mean with that sad face.

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