Thread: Official Thief Soundtrack / Music / Composer - Luc St.Pierre - NEW "Firequake" ?

Official Thief Soundtrack / Music / Composer - Luc St.Pierre - NEW "Firequake" ?

  1. #176
    So you're saying that he needn't have bothered watching the original games?
    No, what I meant was that he should be playing the original games, not merely watching them on YouTube. Games aren't movies; you can't get an impression just by watching them.

    The game he composed for wasn't finished, so how could he play it?
    I'm sure he was given everything he needed in order to compose the music around the game and scripted sequences, no?
    Surely they had some sort of early build at that point? And if not, I imagine EM would've (at least I hope so) walked him through early versions of the different environments and levels to help him understand what they were aiming for, just like a film composer looking at a rough cut of an unfinished movie.

  2. #177
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    Then why bring up the YouTube statistics in the first place? Whether people like St. Pierre's soundtrack or not was never relevant to the conversation.
    I brought it up because you were complaining about orchestral soundtracks vs ambient synth and, like I said, I was curious to find out what fans thought about the music in general. I went on to say whether the music was considered good or bad depended upon the tastes and preferences of who is listening.

    What I said was that he needed to play the original games.
    He doesn't have to play any of the games is what I have argued right from the beginning.

    Just because he has been a professional musician since he was young, that doesn't make his opinion on what music suits a Thief game any more valuable than mine.
    I am not discussing your opinion, I'm discussing knowledge.

    You need to study it to be able to play and compose it, but being able to appreciate it is different.
    So you're saying St.Pierre doesn't appreciate music?

    He invited the composer of the original games to collaborate with him on the soundtrack of the new game...
    He didn't. He said he considered it but it didn't happen.


    which is aiming for the same dark and tense atmosphere, which in many places DOES emulate the style of the original composer, and you don't think he wanted to write the same type of music?
    I never said he didn't want to write the same type of music. I'm saying that he didn't need Brosius's help to write the same type of music. As you said earlier, there are parts of the soundtrack that are Brosius-like. Luc composed that by himself.

    __


    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    No, what I meant was that he should be playing the original games, not merely watching them on YouTube.
    I still disagree that he SHOULD be playing the original games.

    I imagine EM would've (at least I hope so) walked him through early versions of the different environments and levels to help him understand what they were aiming for, just like a film composer looking at a rough cut of an unfinished movie.
    I'm certain they did. This goes without saying... or so I thought.
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  3. #178
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Actually, yeah it does. There's kind of a big difference between knowing how to compose music for situations to create appropriate mood and playing a game while going "Hey, this is pretty good."
    I am not saying that I could write music for Thief. Viktoria used the fact that I am not a composer to trivialise my opinions, all I am trying to say is that that is unfair.

    And as for your other reply, you have completely missed the point. I am not complaining that St. Pierre isn't Brosius, as much as you'd like to try and discredit my argument with that statement. I am saying that by not playing the originals, he has missed many of the signatures that made the original Thief soundtrack unique and interesting, and as a result composed a soundtrack that while fitting for the game (except for the alert music) is not a patch on what Brosius wrote.

  4. #179
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    I am not saying that I could write music for Thief. Viktoria used the fact that I am not a composer to trivialise my opinions, all I am trying to say is that that is unfair.
    And your assertion that you playing the previous games gives you equal or greater insight into how the soundscape should have sounded is nonsensical. It's the silly notion that "I played the previous games, therefore I know best." Ridiculous.

    And as for your other reply, you have completely missed the point. I am not complaining that St. Pierre isn't Brosius, as much as you'd like to try and discredit my argument with that statement. I am saying that by not playing the originals, he has missed many of the signatures that made the original Thief soundtrack unique and interesting, and as a result composed a soundtrack that while fitting for the game (except for the alert music) is not a patch on what Brosius wrote.
    And my point is he shouldn't have to go play the original games and do a patch on what Brosius wrote, and the idea that he should have is both misguided and shortsighted. All that matters is this:

    and as a result composed a soundtrack that while fitting for the game...
    That's what mattered, and that's what he did. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.
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  5. #180
    I brought it up because you were complaining about orchestral soundtracks vs ambient synth and, like I said, I was curious to find out what fans thought about the music in general. I went on to say whether the music was considered good or bad depended upon the tastes and preferences of who is listening.

    ...but then you agreed that you can like St. Pierre, but prefer Brosius... So the stats prove what, exactly?

    I am not discussing your opinion, I'm discussing knowledge.

    No, we are discussing opinions. Music isn't about knowledge. A piece of music isn't objectively good or bad, so all you can talk about is your opinion.

    So you're saying St.Pierre doesn't appreciate music?

    Did I ever say that? Please stop twisting my words. I said you dont need to be a composer to be able to appreciate music.. i.e., just because I don't have experience writing soundtracks, that does not mean you can use that as an argument against me.

    He didn't. He said he considered it but it didn't happen.


    That doesn't affect my argument.

    I never said he didn't want to write the same type of music. I'm saying that he didn't need Brosius's help to write the same type of music. As you said earlier, there are parts of the soundtrack that are Brosius-like. Luc composed that by himself.

    No, you said he wasn't trying to emulate Brosius. If you are now changing your argument to saying that he in fact DID want to write similar music to Brosius' soundtrack, then I don't know why we are still having this discussion.

  6. #181
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    I am not saying that I could write music for Thief. Viktoria used the fact that I am not a composer to trivialise my opinions, all I am trying to say is that that is unfair.
    That never happened.
    You are entitled to your opinion; everyone is. I was stating my opinion - ie. I believe his knowledge, qualifications and experience in the field of music means he knows more than you.


    Did I ever say that? Please stop twisting my words.
    .
    It was clearly a question, not a twisting of words.

    No, you said he wasn't trying to emulate Brosius
    If you read back... all I did was ask you why you thought he was trying to emulate Brosius.
    I don't know why we are still having this discussion.
    The only part of our discussion I am interested in is why you think a composer must play the game he's composing for.
    John Williams' scored the music for "Jaws"... he wasn't required to swim with the shark in order to do so.
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  7. #182
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    And your assertion that you playing the previous games gives you equal or greater insight into how the soundscape should have sounded is nonsensical. It's the silly notion that "I played the previous games, therefore I know best." Ridiculous.
    I don't claim to know best, and if I made my post sound that way then it was unintentional.

    And my point is he shouldn't have to go play the original games and do a patch on what Brosius wrote, and the idea that he should have is both misguided and shortsighted. All that matters is this:

    That's what mattered, and that's what he did. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.
    OK. Although if I were a composer, I would be aiming to do more than write just any forgettable soundtrack as long as it fulfils the minimum requirements that have been set out.

  8. #183
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    I don't claim to know best, and if I made my post sound that way then it was unintentional.
    Fair enough.

    Originally Posted by knox140
    If you say so. If I were a composer, however, I would be aiming to do more than write just any forgettable soundtrack as long as it fulfils the minimum requirements that have been set out.
    6 minutes earlier...

    Originally Posted by knox140
    A piece of music isn't objectively good or bad, so all you can talk about is your opinion.

    (click image to enlarge)
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  9. #184
    Well I never said it wasn't just my opinion... (although it is kinda heavily suggested in the whole "if I were a composer" part...)



    EDIT: you and your damn ferrets...

    That never happened.

    If you say so.

    It was clearly a question, not a twisting of words.

    Come on. You knew I wasn't insinuating in any way that St. Pierre cannot appreciate music. I was defending my own right to discuss its quality.


    If you read back... all I did was ask you why you thought he was trying to emulate Brosius.

    ...in a way that implied you don't share the same view.

    The only part of our discussion I am interested in is why you think a composer must play the game he's composing for.

    Well, I've already said why... I pretty much share InDIGnation's view on the subject.

    John Williams' scored the music for "Jaws"... he wasn't required to swim with the shark in order to do so.

    See MT's advice animal above...

  10. #185
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    you and your damn ferrets...
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  11. #186
    You know that the original animal you had as your avatar was actually a raccoon?


  12. #187
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    OH NOES!


    I am aware that I had Lame Pun Raccoon as my avatar, and I never made the claim that LPR was or ever has been a ferret. However I decided to do a shift after I was accused of being a ferret. My accuser underestimated my esteem for the majestic brethren of the pole cat and true friend of man.

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  13. #188
    Don't worry, knox. I know what you're saying... that you like burricks and food critics like Michelen tires :P


  14. #189
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    Burricks smeel.
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  15. #190
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    Come on...
    Yeah, come on. Lets return to the original disagreement... I feel that the matter is being avoided.
    Why must a composer at least play the game he's composing for?
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  16. #191
    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    Yeah, come on. Lets return to the original disagreement... I feel that the matter is being avoided.
    Why must a composer at least play the game he's composing for?
    That wasn't the original argument... It was whether St. Pierre should have played the original Thief games rather than just watching a lets play.

    There isn't really anything more I can say about it, other than what me and InDIGnation have already said. I just think that you can't get the whole impression of a game from watching a lets play of it. The lack of control draws you out of the experience (you may want the player to do one thing, for example, but he does another, or you see something that he missed etc.) and you can't get immersed and focus on the atmosphere. You can't experience the game how it was meant to be experienced, and seeing as you're writing a soundtrack for someone who wants that experience, it just isn't the same.

    Here's an analogy: imagine a piece of art. Someone commissions you to make a replica of that art, or something inspired by its style... but instead of looking at the art, you are looking at it through a tank of water so the picture it distorted. The final piece that you make is going to be based on what you experienced by looking through the tank, not by the art in its original form- which is what the person you were commissioned by wanted a replica of. So what you submit may be good on its own merits, but it still fails at what it set out to do.

    Originally Posted by DarknessFalls
    Don't worry, knox. I know what you're saying... that you like burricks and food critics like Michelen tires :P

    Finally someone understands!

  17. #192
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    The lack of control draws you out of the experience
    Except what draws someone into an experience changes person to person. But that whole "immersion is subjective" discussion has been done to death around here and it never seems to stick, so I don't see a point in going down that rabbit hole again.

    Originally Posted by knox140
    Here's an analogy: imagine a piece of art. Someone commissions you to make a replica of that art, or something inspired by its style... but instead of looking at the art, you are looking at it through a tank of water so the picture it distorted. The final piece that you make is going to be based on what you experienced by looking through the tank, not what the person you were commissioned by wanted.
    Wow, that's a bad analogy.

    The problem with your entire argument is that Brosius' score isn't reactive in the game. What decisions he would make while playing would have zero effect on the score and how it sets the mood in the environment. Since playing ultimately doesn't effect his wheel house in the previous games, he just needs to understand the context and mood of the environment to see what Brosius did that. You can get that by watching without playing.
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  18. #193
    Originally Posted by knox140
    I just think that you can't get the whole impression of a game from watching a lets play of it.
    Not to mention most Thief YouTubers are constantly running around, talking, have the audio turned down, making fun of the graphics, and making fun of quirky or complicated things that they later realize (or sometimes don't) were that way for a reason because they think they're playing a typical simple game with no depth. I'm sure that all helped the composer really feel the vibe of the game's aural atmosphere!

    I don't think it would have hurt for EM to give him a copy of the games and ask (or require) him to play at least like 5-10 hours of each. That's less than a work week in researching an established franchise that you're going to make music for. But, since EM was re-imagining things, partially carte blanche, they were probably okay with or wanted a non-Thiefy soundtrack; so why have the earlier games influence or cloud your creativity? Batman and Tron Legacy (Daft Punk orchestral) are more popular and better influencers.

    Originally Posted by knox140
    Finally someone understands!
    You can always count on me to really get to the crux of what someone is saying

  19. #194
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    That wasn't the original argument... It was whether St. Pierre should have played the original Thief games rather than just watching a lets play.
    Yes, and I said it is likely that he would have had no spare time to play the original games. Do you honestly think he would have the time to play three games; or even just one of them?
    So, its not a matter of 'rather than'. Watching videos was the next best thing he could do.

    If he had just said he didn't/couldn't play the game...you taffers would then be complaining he should "at least" have watched videos on YT.
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  20. #195
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    Okay, okay, I see your point
    Sweet, time for a nap.

    ZzZzZzZ

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  21. #196
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    The problem with your entire argument is that Brosius' score isn't reactive in the game. What decisions he would make while playing would have zero effect on the score and how it sets the mood in the environment. Since playing ultimately doesn't effect his wheel house in the previous games, he just needs to understand the context and mood of the environment to see what Brosius did that. You can get that by watching without playing.
    Ok, ok, I see your point. It's 1:15 am here, so I'll reply tomorrow... I should probably get to sleep.

  22. #197
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    Yeah, me too. Its late.
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  23. #198
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    I only caught a glimpse of the last page, but

    Watching a let's play of whatever and call it "research" is so typical of our decade. Let's read a webpage or two and a twitter feed and consider ourselves well read on a subject.

    "But I don't have tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime to reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaad. Reading taaaaakessssssss time! Just give me the rundown Jim! I'm so busy in my busy life. Busy busy busy. Look at me ma! I'm busy!"
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  24. #199
    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    *Lots of text*
    Plz write a summarized version of your post. I don't have time to read it all...



  25. #200
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    Really I'd like to be able to get away with the same work ethic!

    "Hey Mitch. About that situation on agricultural industrial espionage by Chinese expats working in biochem....Yeaaaah I didn't really have time to look it up. Got a camping trip to prepare, you know...Found a great article in the Post about it though. Great summary! It's in your inbox. Feel free to forward it to the Americans if they have more questions!"
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