Thread: Take 5 #3 - Dev responses and all discussion thread

Take 5 #3 - Dev responses and all discussion thread

  1. #1

    Arrow Take 5 #3 - Dev responses and all discussion thread

    Hey guys,

    As promised, the Take 5 #3 Community Q&A responses are in - check out what the team had to say here:

    http://community.eidosmontreal.com/b...-3?theme=thief

    Thanks to everybody for submitting their questions, looking forward to the next round!

  2. #2
    BENNY BENNY BENNY WOOOOOOOOO

    Also, I really do just want to sit down and have a beer with Gallagher. That guy is straight-up the man.

  3. #3
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    The conversation I had with Steven at E3 was great. I made sure to take time to talk to him about Garrett because of the Game Informer video where he describes him as a character. My only regret is that I missed out on a heated discussion between my fellow attendees and JFD that sounded interesting, but the thief stuff I got talking to Emanuel, Steven, and Daniel.
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  4. #4
    Benny? I wasn't expecting that

    It's also nice to hear that the intro will be actual gameplay rather than 30 mins of introductory cutscenes, which seems to be endemic to video games nowadays.

  5. #5
    Am glad to hear mid-mission cinematics are avoided. Hope that means they're non-existent

    Glad to hear T1/T2 style lock-picking is in. Good news! Edit: Disregard. MT says they were referring to TDS' lockpicking.

    They didn't flat-out say Benny would be in it; just that fans of Benny would be happy. This could just mean the similar type of comic relief Benny once provided is in the game. If Benny voiced by SR was in it, that would make a fair number of old fans happy-- happiness is something the forum culture is having a tough time expressing recently; so there's little reason to not say he's in it, imo. I'm led to believe he is not in it, sorry to say. (It's another no-win situation for EM, though, unfortunately. Some fans won't like SR being relegated to Benny and don't want SR in the game at all... so what do you do. I think the pros of saying B is in it outweigh the cons)

    It was stated long ago we could just skip the hub. But now I read it's pretty much campaign-impacting if you skip it. Great, thanks TDS

    Nic: Equipment limitation is completely a part of what it is to be a thief. It’s part of preparing yourself for each mission. It’s a big reason why the hub is there – you want to be able to prepare for each mission and choose how you’re going to manage that mission.
    May we have cheat codes to select inventory items we want on a menu screen so we don't have to interrupt the campaign with running around a hub?

  6. #6
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    We definitely have a dark city and a mature storyline, but if the game was nothing but that it would be quite relentless and harrowing for everybody. If you look hard enough in the City, like I know you will, you’re definitely going to be able to find moments that will make you laugh, that will make you smile. I won’t spoil specific characters or storylines today, but I can say that fans of Benny won’t be disappointed.
    Fab! I'm certainly smiling at this news.
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  7. #7
    I'd agree that based on what they say Benny will most likely not be in the game, but similar thing was said about factions, and then the Keepers Library happened, so who knows, maybe Benny, or similarly named comic character will be included after all. Erm... So, I guess we simply don't know anything even after the question has been answered.

    For me, I’m most proud of the immersion of Garrett into the world. ... Truly placing Garrett into his world I think is what I’m most proud of.
    I find it a bit strange. Does a character need to be immersed in a world where he already lives and has always lived? I've always thought that when we talk about immersion in a game it is the player who needs to be immersed in the issues of a virtual universe. But I may be wrong, of course...

    I remember questions about the City Hub gathered some time ago - have they been answered? If no, it's OK, of course, I just ask in case I've missed the answers.

  8. #8
    "Standard lockpicking works like it does in previous Thief games" Thief 1/2 or TDS? Because they both used different styles and are both previous games, just wondering is all.

    Edit: @Deadoptimist: City Hub questions were for a podcast they said would be at the end of the month, if I remember correctly.

  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by Triangletooth
    "Standard lockpicking works like it does in previous Thief games" Thief 1/2 or TDS? Because they both used different styles and are both previous games, just wondering is all.

    Edit: @Deadoptimist: City Hub questions were for a podcast they said would be at the end of the month, if I remember correctly.
    Like in Deadly Shadows.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    So, I guess we simply don't know anything even after the question has been answered.
    Its more fun to not know and discover these things as we play the game.

    I remember questions about the City Hub gathered some time ago - have they been answered? If no, it's OK, of course, I just ask in case I've missed the answers.
    This is scheduled as a podcast and released on the last friday of every month.
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  11. #11
    Thanks, I forgot.
    Mm, and the last friday of September has started a few hours ago...

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Like in Deadly Shadows.
    Then they should not have compared it to the past "games" (plural). Only one game in the series featured TDS style lockpicking, and it was Thief: Deadly Shadows. My hopes and dreams dashed yet again.

    Edit: Is there a chance the 1998 mode, or some other menu option, will allow is to use classic T1/T2 lockpicking; in which case them saying "games" makes sense? Or are you definitively saying it's the TDS way only.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    I'd agree that based on what they say Benny will most likely not be in the game, but similar thing was said about factions, and then the Keepers Library happened, so who knows, maybe Benny, or similarly named comic character will be included after all. Erm... :nut: So, I guess we simply don't know anything even after the question has been answered.
    I dunno, I don't really see why they'd say Benny fans won't be disappointed and then not put Benny in the game. I can't think of any ways you could reference him without actually having his character in the levels...

    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    I find it a bit strange. Does a character need to be immersed in a world where he already lives and has always lived? I've always thought that when we talk about immersion in a game it is the player who needs to be immersed in the issues of a virtual universe. But I may be wrong, of course... :scratch:
    Lol... You're right, didn't notice that... Seems like a bad choice of words on the developers part :p

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by knox140
    I dunno, I don't really see why they'd say Benny fans won't be disappointed and then not put Benny in the game. I can't think of any ways you could reference him without actually having his character in the levels...
    By having other comic relief characters that, they think, are as good as Benny, I suppose. As in "We studied Benny's character but couldn't use him because it is a reboot and we don't want to hire Stephen Russell, so we've made our own funny NPCs".
    But a don't dare presume anything here.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    I find it a bit strange. Does a character need to be immersed in a world where he already lives and has always lived?
    It made sense to me. Garret is fully engaged in the world. He fits. He belongs.

    Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know. But I understand what he is saying.

  16. #16
    Maybe they're now using Garrett and Player as inter-changeable terms?

  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by joebarnin
    It made sense to me. Garret is fully engaged in the world. He fits. He belongs.

    Yes, that's how I read it.

    FYI, everyone. The FAQs page has received a recent update with links to the latest dev responses.

    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=118236
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  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Like in Deadly Shadows.
    Really? That's a damn shame. Of all the aspects to not re-tool, they kept the same simplistic lock-picking mini-game? The locks in TDS all took barely half a second to pick through, since there were only ever (at most) eight possible choices, and you could cycle through them all instantly.

    To be fair, I can't think of a game that has a truly fun take on lockpicking (I did like Skyrim's because there was an element of finesse involved, not just spacial guessing). And the system in T1/T2 wasn't much better, although there you did have the tension of a lock taking time to pick. But for a game that's about breaking and entering, you'd think a little more invention would be put into the "breaking" part. Ah, well.

    That said, I'm still stoked. It sounds like they've really laid the groundwork for a world that will be worth exploring, which is more than 99% of AAA titles can say accurately.

  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by Pillowman
    Really? That's a damn shame. Of all the aspects to not re-tool, they kept the same simplistic lock-picking mini-game? The locks in TDS all took barely half a second to pick through, since there were only ever (at most) eight possible choices, and you could cycle through them all instantly.
    You can't memorize locks in this one as far as I could tell. The basic mechanics are the same when not using focus, where you spin the thumbstick until you find the sweet spot and hold it there. When using focus the mechanics change completely to something far more akin to actual lockpicking, where you must raise the tumblers individually to their proper height. This is done by pressing up on the thumbstick witht he proper pressure to put the tumbler into the lock cylinadar's crease so it catches. Raise it too much and it won't work, raise it too low and it won't work. The game essentially has two completely different lockpicking mechanics in it.

    Thief 1/2's lockpicking is atrocious to me now. At the time of the game sit was fine, but once other games started experimenting with more engaging methods that "hold button" it became almost instantly antiquated. As far as I'm concerned it's a 100% inferior gameplay mechanic to just about every other example of lockpicking out there.
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  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    You can't memorize locks in this one as far as I could tell. The basic mechanics are the same when not using focus, where you spin the thumbstick until you find the sweet spot and hold it there. When using focus the mechanics change completely to something far more akin to actual lockpicking, where you must raise the tumblers individually to their proper height. This is done by pressing up on the thumbstick witht he proper pressure to put the tumbler into the lock cylinadar's crease so it catches. Raise it too much and it won't work, raise it too low and it won't work. The game essentially has two completely different lockpicking mechanics in it.
    Sorry - I wasn't being clear. I didn't mean eight possible lock combinations. I meant eight possible "sweet spot" locations for each tumbler.All you had to do (on a keyboard) was cycle through the WASD keys mashing the use button. No skill needed, very quick, and almost entirely superfluous.

    Sounds like the focus picking mechanic is actually fun and interesting. As someone who wants to try for a focus-free run (at least at first) this makes me sad. Maybe I'll make an exception for picking locks.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    You can't memorize locks in this one as far as I could tell. The basic mechanics are the same when not using focus, where you spin the thumbstick until you find the sweet spot and hold it there. When using focus the mechanics change completely to something far more akin to actual lockpicking, where you must raise the tumblers individually to their proper height. This is done by pressing up on the thumbstick witht he proper pressure to put the tumbler into the lock cylinadar's crease so it catches. Raise it too much and it won't work, raise it too low and it won't work. The game essentially has two completely different lockpicking mechanics in it.

    Thief 1/2's lockpicking is atrocious to me now. At the time of the game sit was fine, but once other games started experimenting with more engaging methods that "hold button" it became almost instantly antiquated. As far as I'm concerned it's a 100% inferior gameplay mechanic to just about every other example of lockpicking out there.
    Inferior only if you actually want a lockpicking minigame that requires more player interaction. I don't. To me, enough tension is built with T1/T2's mechanic by waiting the random amount of time for the lock to open and the sounds it creates that can alert guards. Lockpick minigames like TDS' and Skyrim's always get old, boring, repetitive and a ho-hum chore really quick for me. Sure, T1/T2's can become a mundane task frustration, too, if overdone; but that's also why I like the path of least resistance: T1/T2's style. Least amount of effort involved, yet still builds tension.

    A game could come out tomorrow that makes a mantling mini-game. Raise the left arm over ledge, press button to grip left hand's fingers, then start a jump while engaging the right foot into the wall as you raise the right arm at just the right time, grip right hand's fingers on the ledge, as you press left foot into wall and use all the points of contact you have as leverage to raise yourself up and over the ledge. If you mess up at the wrong times, you fail and you have to start over. If such a game came out, I wouldn't call T4's mantling antiquated; just a different approach to achieve the same thing. Some people would probably enjoy the mantling mini-game.

    I think LGS had it right, either by accident or choice... they didn't want too much time spent or energy exerted on lockpicking. Just as you probably wouldn't want to waste time or energy on a mantling mini-game.

    Now then, not being able to jump when I want, shoot a rope arrow where I want, or lean when I want are all antiquated mechanics.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by Pillowman
    The locks in TDS all took barely half a second to pick through, since there were only ever (at most) eight possible choices, and you could cycle through them all instantly.
    Actually, the mechanics support 16 spots, 8 of them are not accessible via WASD, only with mouse / joystick. It was a design decision not to use them, not the mechanics' fault.

  23. #23
    Actually a couple of late locks (Auldale mostly) DO use some of the other slots, as I found occaisionally I couldn't hit a lock with a straight or diagonal and had to adjust the mouse to the point inbetween.

  24. #24
    Word. Forgot about those. Still, there were so few of them it made me ask: why not make more like these throughout the game? They actually provide a modicum of effort/challenge.

    I agree with DarknessFalls on this issue. Lockpicking for me isn't about how tough the lock is to crack mechanically - it's about how much risk you take by attempting it. Setting a fixed amount of time for each lock before it cracks, along with a detectable noise while picking, creates a necessary danger, and therefore satisfying tension.

    Still, I'm happy about the focus mechanic being more involved. We'll see how it feels when we can finally get our hands on it.

  25. #25
    It made sense for very basic locks to use straight/diagonals, but yeah I agree anything above basic should be a bit more difficult. After all, lockpicking while a guard is on their way is and should be very tense, but doable.