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Thread: Take 5 #2 - Dev responses and all discussion thread

Take 5 #2 - Dev responses and all discussion thread

  1. #1

    Arrow Take 5 #2 - Dev responses and all discussion thread

    Hey guys,

    As promised, the Take 5 #2 Community Q&A responses are in - check out what the team had to say here:

    http://community.eidosmontreal.com/b...-2?theme=thief

    Thanks to everybody for submitting their questions, looking forward to the next round!

  2. #2
    No info on magpies.

    It’s the same universe.
    Without the factions? How?

    It’s a tool that gives him a new edge; it gives him the ability to navigate to new, higher points without being constrained to say, only climbing on pipes or whatnot.
    The distinction between the usage of the Claw and the rope arrows is still unclear. Rope arrows are for vertical navigation too.

    there is his reliable fence Basso, of course
    Hmm... I'm sorry, if I don't remember right, but was Basso really a fence in the previous installments?

    if you look back at what we showed from the House of Blossoms, the whole den is set in the Keeper library from the classic games
    Finally a reveal of some new info! So it is the library.
    ... But there're no Keepers... But their library is here. Or are they now included in the lore? Hmm... It's extremely confusing.
    Maybe the whole new setting is a result of Garrett's trauma from the fall?

    But The Clocktower, the Cathedral, it’s all there, the feeling is the same.
    How can it be the same, if there're no Hammerites and no ghosts now? Not only the layout is important, but also the function of the place. I genuinly don't understand.

    But I must say that the last part of the interview, where Nic Cantin gave out a lot of new info, is what I've been expecting from the advertising campaign in general all along. At least now we have something new to be curious about.

  3. #3
    I think the factions are extinct, it's the conclusion that makes the most sense. Hammerites kicked out, Pagans on the run and persecuted by the Baron and the keepers long gone.

    Which almost makes it a sequel. It's like a sequel but they changed some of the previous games' details.

    Oh, also the Hammers could be a more nuanced religion without their own soldiers and such I guess.

  4. #4
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    Thanks Adam. The answers are very pleasing and I can't wait to get back to the city. Its also good to hear the game will include dark and disturbing moments.
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  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Triangletooth
    I think the factions are extinct, it's the conclusion that makes the most sense. Hammerites kicked out, Pagans on the run and persecuted by the Baron and the keepers long gone.

    Which almost makes it a sequel. It's like a sequel but they changed some of the previous games' details.

    Oh, also the Hammers could be a more nuanced religion without their own soldiers and such I guess.
    The factions could lose their importance. The Keepers' lost their magic in TDS, Pagans were hunted even in the previous games. But the devs said several times that there're no old factions in the new game.

    The more I know about the game, the more it looks like a sequel. Why it isn't one then?

  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    But the devs said several times that there're no old factions in the new game.
    Uh, no they havn't. They said none of the old factions would be central or featured prominently as the Watch and Graven were the central factions to the story, but they never said they weren't there in some capacity.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Uh, no they havn't. They said none of the old factions would be central, but they never said they weren't there in some capacity.
    Oh?
    I've read a number of previews, interviews and hands-on impressions (besides, obviously, hanging around this forum a lot), and until now I've been absolutely sure that the old factions are not there.

    Honestly, considering how bad some fans felt about the exclusion of the classic factions from the new title, I'd expect the info that they are in fact present in the new Thief to be articulated better.
    I am always willing to accept that I've missed something, but in this case I was pretty attentive.

  8. #8
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    A quick glance does suggest an alternate timeline. Alternate, as in somehow similar events took place, but Garrett wasn't involved just yet. You go back in time, you pick him out, and you see how the world would have existed and unveiled without him. Then you paste him back in, years later.

    I've no idea if this is how things actually work out though, of course.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    Oh?
    I've read a number of previews, interviews and hands-on impressions (besides, obviously, hanging around this forum a lot), and until now I've been absolutely sure that the old factions are not there.

    Honestly, considering how bad some fans felt about the exclusion of the classic factions from the new title, I'd expect the info that they are in fact present in the new Thief to be articulated better.
    I am always willing to accept that I've missed something, but in this case I was pretty attentive.
    I'm afraid you weren't in this case.
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    To be fair to DO, I don't think there was much said to suggest they were included beyond the realm of folklore. And if there was, it was badly publicized.
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  11. #11
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    It is pleasing to read the answer to the nods to the previous games. Setting aside whether it's 'enough' to placate a die-hard fan, it does show that they cared. They wouldn't have gone to that trouble if they had no love or respect for the franchise at all.

    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    A quick glance does suggest an alternate timeline. Alternate, as in somehow similar events took place, but Garrett wasn't involved just yet. You go back in time, you pick him out, and you see how the world would have existed and unveiled without him. Then you paste him back in, years later.

    I've no idea if this is how things actually work out though, of course.
    That was my foremost impression as well.

  12. #12
    AWESOME to hear about the horror elements. The Cradle must be my third favourite Thief level of all time, after the First City Bank and Angelwatch. Thanks for answering my question!

    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    The distinction between the usage of the Claw and the rope arrows is still unclear. Rope arrows are for vertical navigation too.
    This was bought up in the Q&A, if I remember rightly. The rope arrows are for long-distance vertical navigation, the claw is for reaching ledges and edges that are just out of your reach, which are more short-range.

    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    Hmm... I'm sorry, if I don't remember right, but was Basso really a fence in the previous installments?
    It's a bit ambiguous, he's called a "boxman", which I think is a safecracker. That would make sense because of his skills with a lockpick. Also, in Cragscleft, there's a note about him in the prisoner logbook which says he's an arsonist. Not sure if they've kept his history in this game, but there's nothing to say he didn't retire from being a thief and became a fence instead. He certainly looks older in this game than in T2.

  13. #13
    By the way, found a bit of an interview with devs' speaking about the factions:

    http://gamestar.ru/english/thief_interview_eng.html
    You have said completely nothing so far about the Keepers and the Hammers. Is that your intention to keep some story elements in the shadows, or you decided to get rid of these factions as well? Why did you decide to move Baron (who was barely mentioned in the original games) to the forefront of the new story instead?

    SG: Our story in Thief is standalone. Players do not need to know anything of the old games to fully enjoy the new Thief experience. With that said, it is likely that interesting nuggets might be found if the more curious players out there wish to dig deep enough.
    That looks like a "no" to me.

    Many people on this forum have written that the factions are not included in the new game, and this opinion was not contested in any way.

    There was that screenshot with a Keeper statue, but before this q&a I can't remember any info that would suggest that the statue was anything more than a nod for the fan community.
    Now it seems that we'll get some group named Keepers, after all.

    To keep fans in the dark about the return of the Keepers for so long and to say it like this later... I don't get it.
    There would have been much less whining, if they'd said it from the start.

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    It’s also the same City with the same layout, the same districts, the clocktower; we almost didn’t change the layout of the City at all. It’s the same universe.
    But there has never been a consistent layout for the City. Are you sure you're not just saying "It's the same layout as in Deadly Shadows."? Because that's the only game in the series that actually tries to depict some major structural details of the City as a whole, like the river. That river wasn't brought up in Thief 1 or 2. And neither was the clock tower.

    And I wonder what you mean by "placing Dayport on a certain side of the river" -because the location of that district has never been revealed. Fans have placed it firmly on the east side, but that isn't actually supported by lore.

    My hope is that if there are multiple separate playable districts in the game, that they are not interconnected like in TDS. Because the lack of strict connection between districts that are obviously really small, gives the impression that those districts do expand farther than the level boundaries. If South Quarter, Wayside and Stonemarket would all be stuck close together, it would give the impression that those all the whole districts, in their actual size. -Which would be about as ridiculous as stating that the first hub area in Deus Ex Human Revolution is actually supposed to be the entire city of Detroit.

  15. #15
    I remembered one of the E3 interviews mentioned something about the factions... I trawled through YouTube and found this one- I think it pretty much clears this up. It seems the factions WILL be there in reference- you might even encounter some of them- but they're not part of the story, definitely.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUEZaT_XAG8

    20:10

  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    By the way, found a bit of an interview with devs' speaking about the factions:

    http://gamestar.ru/english/thief_interview_eng.html


    That looks like a "no" to me.

    Many people on this forum have written that the factions are not included in the new game, and this opinion was not contested in any way.

    There was that screenshot with a Keeper statue, but before this q&a I can't remember any info that would suggest that the statue was anything more than a nod for the fan community.
    Now it seems that we'll get some group named Keepers, after all.

    To keep fans in the dark about the return of the Keepers for so long and to say it like this later... I don't get it.
    There would have been much less whining, if they'd said it from the start.
    Few things here.

    1. Nowhere does that say the old factions are not in the game. If anything it implies that they are, in fact, there in some capacity.

    2. I pointed out the Keeper Library thing immediately after E3, when I had a conversation with Emanuel Garcia about it at the community mixer. The City map, the Keeper Library being the current home of the brothel, all of that. Heck, we even had inclings of that back in March when people were spotting Keeper statues and glyphs in the first screenshots of the game. They didn't keep you in the dark, you were just failing to pay attention.
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  17. #17
    Originally Posted by knox140
    I remembered one of the E3 interviews mentioned something about the factions... I trawled through YouTube and found this one- I think it pretty much clears this up.
    "Maybe you'll find out, when you play the game" is not clearing up anything.

    Yep, they've said that there're some references before, but parts of the Keeper library left to explore is a whole different level of inclusion. That means that there're not just some echoes in the lore, but actual places and artifacts.

    It is both interesting and starange that the devs distance themselves from the old plotline and characters, but keep locations. There will be interference effect for old fans.

    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    2. I pointed out the Keeper Library thing immediately after E3, when I had a conversation with Emanuel Garcia about it at the community mixer. The City map, the Keeper Library being the current home of the brothel, all of that. Heck, we even had inclings of that back in March when people were spotting Keeper statues and glyphs in the first screenshots of the game. They didn't keep you in the dark, you were just failing to pay attention.
    Was there any proof that it was the actual library there of a faction named "Keepers", not just a figure with a key? If so, then yes, I've missed it.

    I would just like to point out two things:
    1. Many fans, me included, were worried about the old factions not being in the new game. There was a lot of posts written about it. Why all the answers of the devs were so elusive, if it is not a secret and is revealed in a regular community q&a?
    2. Is it really ok, if I need to pay that much attention to know something so essential and important for the franchise? I am here often, but not all the time. I've talked about it with people on this forum a while ago - nobody pointed out that there was a reliable info that the old factions were included. I mean there was some speculation after the release of the screenshots, but it was not supported by the devs, and I don't remember any major reveals about this later.

    I am fine with it - cause it is better later than never, and I fully understand even that my questions are rhetorical, but the way the information is revealed about the game seems to me not... optimal. I've started to think lately that the game may be better than its advertising campaign, because the latter is confusing and disheartening.

  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    It is both interesting and starange that the devs distance themselves from the old plotline and characters, but keep locations. There will be interference effect for old fans.
    That's already a common theme with the game. They kept Garrett's name, but didn't keep Garrett.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    It is both interesting and starange that the devs distance themselves from the old plotline and characters, but keep locations. There will be interference effect for old fans.
    You're drawing false conclusions from incomplete information. Saying "they didn't specifically mention that the factions will be present so therefore they are not present" doesn't make sense- especially since they haven't ever specifically mentioned that they won't be in the game either. This is all we have to go on for now- the fact that we know there WILL be references to them in the game. We don't know what references, maybe some will be locations, like the Keeper library, perhaps you'll see a hammer in a glass showcase or you might find yourself in the house of an old Hammerite in the City. We don't know. It could be anything from really small things to actually coming across Hammerites and Pagans in the game, who just aren't part of the story.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Few things here.

    1. Nowhere does that say the old factions are not in the game. If anything it implies that they are, in fact, there in some capacity.
    Will you just stop it already, please? Because right now, YOU are the one spreading missinformation, and its not even funny.

    Raptorll: Are the old non-City Watch factions going to return--such as the Pagans, Hammerites, and Keepers--if only to give life to The City?

    Because it's a reinvention, we are not going back to the old factions. We want new factions. The last story didn't give us a lot of options. We wanted to take a step back and make sure we have everything right for a new, fresh experience within this universe. There may be some references back to keep the following happy, but it will be all new groups.

    The two new factions are the Baron and he has The Watch. We also have a dissident group called the Raven. There is a political conflict that Garrett finds himself in the middle of. There will be characters associated with the group that will reveal themselves within the game.
    http://www.shacknews.com/article/797...nity-questions

    So the old fractions are gone, and all that’s left of them are nods and hints and ester eggs. Going on vacation seeing the pyramids in Egypt does not mean that the ancient pharaohs are "there, in some capacity". They are GONE, and so are the old factions.

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    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    That river wasn't brought up in Thief 1 or 2. And neither was the clock tower.
    [/B]
    Isn't the clock tower your starting point in "life of the party"?

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by NIB
    Isn't the clock tower your starting point in "life of the party"?
    I think that was a bell tower.

  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by Statue
    Will you just stop it already, please? Because right now, YOU are the one spreading missinformation....

    MT is correct in what he states. What misinformation is he spreading exactly?
    He states " If anything it implies that they are, in fact, there in some capacity."... and that fits in with the dev statements you quote.
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  24. #24
    Honestly, the more I read responses like these, the more excited I am about the game: missions that are both in and outside the City limits, definite horror levels, exploring locations/faction areas from previous games as "a major beat" - it all sounds excellent.

    However, it does reinforce the notion that EM has been making really poor choices in how the present the game from day 1. When we were introduced to the House of Blossoms, nowhere was it mentioned that it had anything to do with the Keepers, and people were pissed. Now we find that the entire point of that level is to explore the old Keeper Library? It simply feels like a missed opportunity to boost confidence in the old fanbase.

    Then again, I don't envy them. They have to walk a fine line, between both putting their stamp on the brand and remaining faithful to it; and between revealing the narrative and keeping the twists and turns a secret before people play it.

    More and more I am thinking the old factions/old world of the games does play a significant part in the narrative, but they just don't want to spoil anything for us. It is possible to know too much, methinks. Right now I'm content to wait, and watch.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    1. Many fans, me included, were worried about the old factions not being in the new game. There was a lot of posts written about it. Why all the answers of the devs were so elusive, if it is not a secret and is revealed in a regular community q&a?
    But that doesn't make any sense. Just because the devs don't want to reveal something, and want to leave it until we actually play the game, that doesn't mean that thing is not in the game. If you asked them what all the secrets in the game were and their locations in one of the Q&As, and they didn't answer because that's something you're supposed to find out for yourself, does that mean the game won't have any secrets? Same with these references. They're things that they want you to see in the game and think "huh, I recognise that". If they just told you what they all were it kind of defeats the purpose.

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