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Thread: [SPOILER] --- Why did Moebius become a wraith?

  1. #1

    Question [SPOILER] --- Why did Moebius become a wraith?

    [SPOILER]

    Hello everyone,
    I am thinking about the shape of Moebius after Kain had killed him at the end of Defiance. Throughout the Soul Reaver series and also in Defiance we saw always the souls leaving their destroyed bodies, but Moebius just awakes as a wraith in the Spectral Realm asking the Elder God for resurrection. How is this possible? In Soul Reaver 2 Raziel realized that the Elder had perhaps not brought him life again and was apparently not that powerful he had made him think. So was this statement incorrect and the Elder could indeed choose a person who would become a wraith (or anything other) after its death if he wished so? It was not usual that Raziel said wrong things. Maybe it was just about Moebius' role as the Time Guardian? Kains role as the Scion of Balance had saved his life, too. The only distinction was that Kain didn't vanish into the Spectral Realm.

    This seems like an international forum, so I hope you are used to a pretty bad English

  2. #2
    The souls in general have more humanoid shape in Defiance, so there's that. As for why is he only in the spectral realm and why doesn't Kain see him - perhaps only Raziel can see souls while in material realm. Moebius wasn't a wraith, just a soul.
    As for Kain - he wasn't sent into the spectral realm, but into the Demon Dimension.

  3. #3
    Yes, Kain was not in the Spectral Realm, but the point was that he would have died if he hadn't been the Scion of Balance. I think this was the only reason why his soul didn't enter the Underworld? The theory about Moebius' guardianship would thus be wrong...

    Thank you anyway

  4. #4
    When Kain killed him in the Citadel, Moebius wasn't the Guardian already. He stopped being the Guardian when Kain beheaded him back in Blood Omen 1. Moments after that the Elder revived Moebius, but he wasn't the guardian anymore. Then Kain killed him again.

  5. #5
    I didn't know that. Thanks!

  6. #6
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    Raziel is not a reliable narrator. He says many things, some right and some wrong, and we don't know for sure when to trust what he says. We "know" that Raziel would have risen without any help from Elder God (because we see other vampire wraiths rising without Elder's permission).... But we also know Raziel was far more powerful than the others, which means Elder gave him those upgrades (taking physical form over and over makes him unstoppable). So Elder has the ability to alter Moebius' soul into a wraith if he wants. I think what we see happen in Defiance is not a wraith but just a way of showing that Mobius has a special relationship with the lord of the underworld and his spirit can ask for special favors.

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    I'm under the impression that Moebius was important for the dialogue and thus had human properties.

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    I think that Moebius looks the same only so that we could easily tell it was him. I don't think that he's supposed to be special. Or now that I think of it, maybe it was supposed to mean something. Maybe it is because he's a Guardian. Ariel still looks like herself after all.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
    Or now that I think of it, maybe it was supposed to mean something
    I think that the others looked like regular souls is because of techinal limitations.

  10. #10
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    (We're talking about the final scenes of Defiance, so it goes without saying there are spoilers here, but just in case, below contains SPOILERS )

    Yes, or rather, stylistic choice, perhaps. BO1 had ghosts of everyone Kain had killed, or had been killed already, in their human form. SR1 had them as blobs of energy only (except Ariel, of course). SR2 had them as blobs of energy in Material, skulls with energy trails in Spectral. Both games had Sluagh as ghost forms of themselves. Defiance chose a middle ground, with humanoid energy souls, or Hylden-oid energy souls for them. These souls have a face, body, and energy wave textures, so they all could have been made to be generic transparent human, or Hylden, if they had chosen to go that route. I think they actually could have had floating ghost humans, if they had chosen to, but Raziel sucking them up doesn't look nearly as pretty and cool as glowing blue or green energy. Case in point, when Moebius gets sucked up by Raziel in Defiance, it actually looks a bit silly, seeing his entire body flip around and then be pulled down without warping, or changing any. I always remark at that scene that it would be much better had his lower body been faded, so not showing his huge feet, and especially there if he would have morphed into energy when being pulled down Raziel's maw. I remove the bubbles energy stuff in the re-textures I did because that looks really bad to me. Those bubbles are when Raziel feeds on Moebius here and when the Reaver consumes Ariel's soul (also when Kain bashes open the "blessed barriers" on the doors early in the Sarafan Keep).

    Anyway, I think it was more a style choice. And the Elder doesn't create wraiths in general. He chose Raziel and ressurected him as his servant, but Raziel's soul, like any vampire of his kind, has the ability to adapt to become a wraith in Spectral.

    Wraiths are vampire souls that have evolved to feed on souls in Spectral. Unless we're talking of the wraith Kain mentions in the Spirit Forges in BO1 "wraiths and smithies" or similarly, that which possibly made the wraith armor.

    Moebius cannot become something like either. He was just a human soul and has been stated, his binding token to the Pillars in his hour glass had been returned and the Pillar of Time restored prior to his resurrection, so his guardianship had ended. What he was there was just a human soul, waking up in Spectral and being shown for just how vulnerable he truly was. Perhaps we're thinking of the flying Archons as similar to wraiths here in what the EG raises. However, the EG doesn't raise, nor control vampire wraiths, besides Raziel.

  11. #11
    Whether the Elder resurrected Raziel or not at all is up for debate. In my opinion (yeah, following ramble is a theory), he just parasites on him and Raziel is just a vampire wraith, but of a higher level, being a kainim (I'll now use this term to refer to the lieutenats. Because I feel like it) and all. He didn't lose his identity and didn't become completely mad because he is stronger than the others. Dumah didn't lose his identity either and has become a vampire wraith as well.

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    To be exact, Kain calls them the "wraiths and shades" of the Spirit Forges. And I think that after looking at the evidence, it's absolutely undeniable that the Spirit Forges are connected to Hash'ak'gik, and so in the larger picture, it is the Hylden. And Kain indeed remarks that the Wraith Armor was made by them.
    About the souls being blobs of energy in Soul Reaver, don't forget that early demo video clearly showing the souls in a humanoid shape. From what I understand, there was some technical problem or something that made them have to turn to blobs of energy (and really, I kind of prefer how they look in Soul Reaver the most).
    I say that it's most likely because he's an important character and they wanted us to easily recognize him.

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    I like the theory of the portions of Kains gift (hierarchy theory), but Dumah was both physically and metaphorically intended to be dead. All of the lieutenants kept their mentality in tact, which is why their physical properties went nuts. I'd argue that his (Dumahs) (d)evolution continued while he was incapacitated but on a different plane and with a different meaning then that of physical properties.
    Again,. it's a bit confusing situation for Dumah since his physical properties nourished while he was being in spectral realm.
    A rather curious choice for the ability, I always thought that Raziel will get Dumahs "hit" ability, to stomp or similar.

    I think that lieutenants never wen't mad, cookoo, crazy or similar, only that their stronger points of personality were becoming intensified over the course of years.

    As for the hierarchy theory, in that case, everyone should have the ability to trespass spectral realm since Melchiah also could.
    However we see that others weren't so lucky as to possess such an ability.

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