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Thread: Take 5 #1 - Dev responses + discussion thread

Take 5 #1 - Dev responses + discussion thread

  1. #1

    Thumbs Up Take 5 #1 - Dev responses + discussion thread

    Hey guys,

    As promised, the first "Take 5" Community Q&A responses are in - check out what the team had to say here: http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Take-5-QA-1

    Thanks to everybody for submitting their questions, can't wait for the next Take 5!

  2. #2
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    Thanks for doing these. Is this the thread for accepting the next batch of questions?

  3. #3
    Just one question for you b1skit, why is it called Take 5? :p

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    Originally Posted by knox140
    Just one question for you b1skit, why is it called Take 5?
    Arthur: It's because they take 5 questions...
    Galahad: Three questions.
    Arthur: Three questions.

  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by knox140
    Just one question for you b1skit, why is it called Take 5?
    The developers take five minutes to answer five questions.
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  6. #6
    Aww... Mine were not chosen.

    That's a lot of new info about AI. And it was good to hear that there're surfaces that make sound even if you're crouched.
    Difficulty levels are still unclear. I wanted to know about additional objectives. But they say that they're still tuning it, so, I guess, we'll know later.

    Really, this interview finally makes me think that the advertising we've seen before really is worse than the actual game.

  7. #7
    Yep, this was good stuff. Lots of interesting details. Guards will pay attention to doors that open near them? That sounds cool.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    The developers take five minutes to answer five questions.
    Oooh. I didn't see kangaxx's question, I thought they'd only answered 4, so I got confused. My bad.

    Originally Posted by deadoptimist
    Aww... Mine were not chosen.

    That's a lot of new info about AI. And it was good to hear that there're surfaces that make sound even if you're crouched.
    Difficulty levels are still unclear. I wanted to know about additional objectives. But they say that they're still tuning it, so, I guess, we'll know later.

    Really, this interview finally makes me think that the advertising we've seen before really is worse than the actual game.
    They said that "the core experience will be the same across each difficulty", so I'm assuming that there won't be additional objectives. I'm cool with that, putting in additional objectives was effectively just locking content if you're not skilled enough at the game.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Cavalier
    Yep, this was good stuff. Lots of interesting details. Guards will pay attention to doors that open near them? That sounds cool.
    I wonder how this will be accounted for with players who aren't using focus? Seems like it would turn opening a door without causing an alert into a bit of a guessing game, but maybe there's an angle here I'm not seeing.

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    I wonder how this will be accounted for with players who aren't using focus? Seems like it would turn opening a door without causing an alert into a bit of a guessing game, but maybe there's an angle here I'm not seeing.
    Look through the keyhole before you open it.
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  11. #11
    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    I wonder how this will be accounted for with players who aren't using focus? Seems like it would turn opening a door without causing an alert into a bit of a guessing game, but maybe there's an angle here I'm not seeing.
    Maybe you'll be able to hear them cough/talk? You'll definitely be able to hear them move around. I think you can look through keyholes, as well.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for doing this, Adam!

    I really liked the new infos. I just hope sneaking won't be too easy with being almost completly silent. Hopefully walking on tiles also is loud, not just only on broken glass.

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    As I expected. They tried very hard to pick five easy questions to answer, and even didn't do that fully. They even had to resort to responding to the colorblindness question that concerns a very small percentage of the target group, no offense.

    By not answering fully, they conveniently failed to address how much noise swooping makes. I don't think they lied though. They said exactly what they wanted us to hear. For example "noise patches" -the only example of which so far seems to be broken glass. Not many rich taffers casually keep broken glass on their floors. So basically they responded that "crouching is totally silent" and tried to make it seem like it isn't, by redirecting attention to the only special exception when it isn't.

    To be honest I never expected them to even consider responding to my contextual actions question because no matter what they would respond, it would be bad for them. If there never was a version of the game where the movement was more important than the animations, that's really bad. If there was, then changing away from that would have been really stupid. So in the end either answer would have made them look like bad game designers, dumb, or both.

    Somehow I can't imagine this "take five" to become a regular feature. Unless the question submission period is extended in a way that allows five extremely soft questions to be submitted so that the harder ones are easier to ignore.

  14. #14
    Did you read the same article? They said exactly how much noise swooping makes.

    "Swooping is also silent." (though whether you can "swoop" silently over broken glass is an open question.)

    "noise patches" -the only example of which so far seems to be broken glass.
    Use your imagination. Wooden boards that stick up slightly (and thus creak when stepped on--kind of looks like that in the trailer) or dry twigs outside. Much more realistic way to handle sound than tap shoes. And plus, they said multiple times that crouching isn't "totally silent", just close to it, but:

    "some surfaces will make more noise than others even if you’re crouching. "

    So that's already a step up from TDS, and the noise patch idea adds some cool new gameplay opportunities.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Cavalier
    Use your imagination. Wooden boards that stick up slightly (and thus creak when stepped on--kind of looks like that in the trailer) or dry twigs outside. Much more realistic way to handle sound than tap shoes.
    Another way of saying this is don't bother worrying about different types of floors, just make sure you don't step on any of the hot spots or else you'll make a noise.

    The point of having Garrets footsteps audible to the player is to communicate the level of noise you're generating. It's exaggerated so you can actually hear it, and in my mind, because even the tiniest noise he makes is going to sound incredibly loud to Garrett.

    Anyway, this is just another indication that this game pretty much completely scrapped Thief's core gameplay systems (while keeping the broad strokes things like "first person sneaking" and "a steampunk-inspired setting"). That's not to say the game won't be fun in its own right, of course.

  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    Another way of saying this is don't bother worrying about different types of floors, just make sure you don't step on any of the hot spots or else you'll make a noise.

    The point of having Garrets footsteps audible to the player is to communicate the level of noise you're generating. It's exaggerated so you can actually hear it, and in my mind, because even the tiniest noise he makes is going to sound incredibly loud to Garrett.

    Anyway, this is just another indication that this game pretty much completely scrapped Thief's core gameplay systems (while keeping the broad strokes things like "first person sneaking" and "a steampunk-inspired setting"). That's not to say the game won't be fun in its own right, of course.
    Considering different surfaces still have different audio properties outside of these "hot spots" as you're calling them, I find your claim that one of the core mechanics is scrapped to be completely false.
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  17. #17
    Good thoughts, Cavalier. Thanks for the Take 5 responses, b1skit and devs. Glad to hear no hive-minded AI and that they 'communicate.'

    Regarding crouching, my fear is the same as Plat's. I spend (and actually like to spend) 95% of my time in Thief crouching. It's just more natural for me to play it like that; for any stealthy game or moments in games. And if crouching is insta-silence, or just about, except for noise patches (glass, floorboards, etc.) -- which you should, ideally, be able to avoid if you're careful anyways -- then my taffing enjoyment will be bumped down a couple notches. I'm hoping to have to be careful with all my navigation, even while crouching. Between near-silent crouching and silent swoop, it sounds like I will be skating through the levels with nary a care in the world with how loud I'm being ... because I'll be mostly silent. In the PC version, I hope we can toggle things like this in the CFG file -- how loud your footsteps are in the various postures and how loud swoop is.

    Regarding colorblindness, I think that does affect a pretty large portion of society, actually; with varying levels and breadth of the color blindness. There doesn't seem to be much color in this game, however... only a few... so I can see how contrast plays an important role. And I wonder, is there 3rd Party software that can be run while playing games that makes things high contrast, similar to the high-contrast mode in Windows?

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Considering different surfaces still have different audio properties outside of these "hot spots" as you're calling them, I find your claim that one of the core mechanics is scrapped to be completely false.
    Not when you're crouched (should have made that clearer in my post):

    "It’s still possible to make noise and alert guards if you’re crouched though - for example, if you walk on a "noise patch", like a pile of broken glass on the floor, you’ll still make detectable noise."

    Unless I'm somehow misreading this, you will not make noise when you're crouched unless you step on a hot spot. So if the solution to those pesky loud surfaces is really simply to press "crouch," then yeah, that is a major change.

  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    Not when you're crouched (should have made that clearer in my post):

    "It’s still possible to make noise and alert guards if you’re crouched though - for example, if you walk on a "noise patch", like a pile of broken glass on the floor, you’ll still make detectable noise."

    Unless I'm somehow misreading this, you will not make noise when you're crouched unless you step on a hot spot. So if the solution to those pesky loud surfaces is really simply to press "crouch," then yeah, that is a major change.
    You're misreading it. They used broken glass as an example of when you would make noise, not the sole way you can. Another example I found during the demo would be moving through running water. Even while crouched, I had to move slower through it so I didn't alert nearby guards. Bumping into stuff int he environment can also have noisy consequences, so there's additional possibilities outside of simply which surfaces you're walking on.

    Crouching is near silent on normal surfaces, but other surfaces like those covered with broken glass and water you will still make noise if moving quickly. You still need to be observant of what surfaces you're moving on and where you step. Substitute "running water and broken glass" with "tile and metal" and it's much the same as it was in the previous Thief games (Minus DS. Everything's silent while crouched there.) That doesn't include surfaces we haven't seen or heard of yet in this new game, either.
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  20. #20
    I didn't say it was the sole way you can make noise, not sure where you're getting that. I said it sounds like hot spots. Now it sounds like hot spots + running water. That isn't surface-based stealth, that's contextual stealth. Plenty of fun games have systems like that. It could certainly be fun. But it baffles me that can't see the difference between that and the way previous Thief games functioned (you may be right about DS, that's not one I revisit much TBH).

    So opinions, I guess.

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    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    I didn't say it was the sole way you can make noise, not sure where you're getting that. I said it sounds like hot spots. Now it sounds like hot spots + running water. That isn't surface-based stealth, that's contextual stealth. Plenty of fun games have systems like that. It could certainly be fun. But it baffles me that can't see the difference between that and the way previous Thief games functioned (you may be right about DS, that's not one I revisit much TBH).

    So opinions, I guess.
    I have news for you "contextual stealth" is every stealth game ever made. Thief is entirely about the context of the environment, and when it's not conducive to your sneaking you adjust your strategy by changing your movement behavior or change it with your tools (IE water and moss arrow). That's how the game works now, and that's how the series has always worked.

    What's the traits of this surface? Stone with running water. It'll be loud to traverse, I should move slowly through it.

    What's the traits of this surface? Tile floor with cuts of carpet on it. Some areas are loud, I should stick to the carpeted areas.

    What's the traits of this surface? Grass. Quiet surface, i can move swiftly across it with minimal penalty.

    The difference now is there are additional traits that can change how a surface behaves. If there's broken glass on carpet, suddenly it's not as quiet to traverse anymore is it?
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  22. #22
    If you swoop in the snow, does it make a swoop trail? And the most important question, can Garrett fall backward into the snow and do a snow angel in 3P perspective?

  23. #23
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I have news for you
    I was using "contextual" in the context -- ironically -- of a discussion about game design, where the word has a more specific meaning. "Contextual" doesn't generally refer to the simulated properties of a surface. It refers to contextually marked up areas. Yes, one could argue that simulated surfaces are still "contextual" because the properties of the surface changes between materials. But that isn't what I'm talking about.

    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    What's the traits of this surface? Stone with running water. It'll be loud to traverse, I should move slowly through it.
    Agreed. As I said, we've potentially identified one surface that is louder when crouched. That makes sense, sloshing through water is louder than tiptoeing on a solid surface. Sounds good to me.

    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    What's the traits of this surface? Tile floor with cuts of carpet on it. Some areas are loud, I should stick to the carpeted areas.
    But my whole point was that when you're crouched, you're silent unless you step on a hotspot like broken glass. Is tile one of the surfaces that are louder when you're crouched? Is brick? Is marble? This is the crux of my point. If all of those things are louder, then great, I misunderstood.

    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    The difference now is there are additional traits that can change how a surface behaves. If there's broken glass on carpet, suddenly it's not as quiet to traverse anymore is it?
    That sounds good. But it doesn't address my point:

    From what the developer said, if you crouch then you don't make a noise unless you step on broken glass, or a creaky board, or whatever other hotspot is in your vicinity. The actual surface material doesn't matter, broadly speaking, unless you're fully erect (har har).

    So to reiterate yet again: I'm not mad about this change. I don't necessarily think it's bad. I do think it's different than what I'm used to with Thief. If the game comes out and it turns out this is all just a big misunderstanding, then great.

    I'm glad we're at least getting to brass tacks in this discussion though!

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    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    But my whole point was that when you're crouched, you're silent unless you step on a hotspot like broken glass
    And my point is you're projecting a far more narrow version than will appear in the game. Yes, crouched means you're essentially silent on normal surfaces, but portraying these individual traits as simply "hot spots" is not reflecting reality. These are instead an additional surface trait that is layered on top of another that supersedes the lower trait and trumps crouch's typical silent approach.
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  25. #25
    Sounds good then.

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