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Thread: Director's Cut Energy Management -- more Info Please

Director's Cut Energy Management -- more Info Please

  1. #1

    Director's Cut Energy Management -- more Info Please

    UPDATE: Director's Cut ENERGY MANAGEMENT STILL BROKEN!
    Check the Videos further down. Now the TWO leftmost Energy Bars recharge, instead of only one, with everything else being the same - which completely missed the point.


    Energy Management was one of the most talked and complained about features of DX:HR.

    In essence, the existing mechanic - with only the left-most energy-bar recharging from "nothing", and "common actions" like a single takedown or a wall-punch costing you one full energy bar - this mechanic encouraged people to only ever have one bar charged, and only use power-ups to charge more once you need them. Eating a protein bar because you just spotted three enemies feels stupid and completely breaks immersion, but it was better than always fretting about having wasted a bar for a wall-punch, because you had eaten something when you didn't need to, used a bar that doesn't recharge instead of the one that does.

    The mechanic was counter-intuitive, often being compared to running around with only one bullet in your gun, because that bullet automatically recharges, and only ever loading more bullets once you get into a situation where more than one bullet is needed. It might make sense logically, but it goes against the grain of pretty much every gamer I know. You always keep your weapon loaded, and you always keep your energy as charged as possible - except in DX:HR, of course.

    With the Director's Cut many had hoped the issue might get a satisfactory resolution. They will be disappointed.

    With the release around the corner, I wanted to look into this once more. I couldn't find anything specific, so I went to do a little digging, and sadly found what I was hoping NOT to find.
    And I am appalled that Eidos apparently completely missed the point of all the negative feedback about the energy management. At least, that`s what it looks like to me, taken from these two videos:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UbXvSdJ6vA
    Important Sequences: @1:55-2:20; and @4:30-5:15


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-35eCQG9pLY
    Important Sequence: @0:50-1:05

    The sequences starting at 1:55, and then at 4:30 in the first vid, and at 0:50 in the second vid, show that nothing really has changed - except that now the leftmost TWO bars recharge instead of just one. NOT the first two bars used. NOT any two bars (@1:55 first vid). ONLY the leftmost two bars, no matter how many bars you have available (@4:30 first vid). And Takedowns STILL cost one full energy bar (@0:50 second vid).

    Why do I call that "nothing"? Because it still "punishes" people for having more than the now two recharging energy bars filled. It doesn't solve anything. If you have all five bars charged, you STILL waste one bar for doing a single Takedown or a Wallpunch - waste, because if you only had kept your leftmost two bars filled, those would recharge. Now people will simply run around with TWO bars all the time, instead of one like it used to be - and if you need more energy for something, only then will you eat a protein bar to charge your energy (feeling stupid - "Oh, enemies. Let's eat.").

    And even worse, now you can possibly do an unlimited amount of cloaked takedowns without the need to ever use protein bars at all. All you need to do is wait for your leftmost two bars to recharge in between. This might even make additional energy bars completely pointless, especially for sneaky, patient players.

    Of all the possible ways they could've changed the energy management, this might not be the worst, but I think it comes pretty close. And I don't understand why.

    I was very excited for the DC, but now, just thinking about this, already frustrates the hell out of me. It would have been so, so very simple to make this work out, without a new melee system, or making takedowns energy free, but this just completely misses the point. I would even say it's worse than before.



    Why the energy management was/is an issue (Wall o' Text):

    Along with many others (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120318 -- http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121214 -- http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=118053 -- http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120318 --etc) I have felt that the Energy Management (only the first bar recharges) seemed off/restrictive/counter-intuitive.

    The reasons were varied:
    • "Food is too rare"
    • "Why does a Takedown consume energy at all?"
    • "No cool combo moves without Food "
    • "The only good way to manage energy is to only have the recharging bar charged (for exploration, wall punches and single takedowns), but it still feels silly to have to take a Snickers Break before engaging multiple enemies"
    • "The game feels like it penalizes you for having all your bars (if you have more than one) charged: if you have two bars charged and do two take-downs, it will cost you one bar and some time for the first to recharge; if you have three bars charged and do two take downs, it will cost you two bars; if you have five bars charged and punch through a wall simply to find out what's behind it, it costs you one bar; if you have only the first bar (that's always) charged and punch through a wall it costs you nothing but a little time"
    • "The current system feels like only putting bullets in your gun once you see an enemy, instead of always trying to have a full clip"

    You can read all the discussions in the first linked poll-thread, but this is pretty much what the "problems with the system" boiled down to. What came out of it, was the prevalent play style of NEVER charging any extra bars until you really need them (use the recharging one for exploration, single takedowns etc, and when you need more than one bar, take a break and eat something).

    On the other hand, many people have defended the system as it is/was, as everything else (suggested) would have made the game too easy. THE GAME SHOULD NOT BE MADE EASIER, and I agree. But that doesn't mean the existing system wasn't frustrating.

    Personally, I always felt it was weird to have five energy bars, only ever have the first one charged unless more energy is necessary, like "Oh, Several Enemies. I need more Energy for Cool Moves, so.... STOP! Snickers Time!".

    I also strongly felt penalized for charging up all 5 bars because I found some food, only to turn a corner, see a Wall I could punch, "forcing" me to waste 1 energy bar for a Wall Punch that I wouldn't have had to waste anything for, if I hadn't charged all 5 up and just remained on one bar.

    The first is an immersion breaker for me, while the second is purely psychological. For me, NOT having everything full if I CAN have everything full just feels wrong.

    The System really is/was like you only load your gun with bullets when you see an enemy instead of always trying to have a full clip - and to whom does that NOT feel strange?
    http://vgbastard.blogspot.de/-- a blog for gamers of a certain maturity
    http://lunartiktales.blogspot.de/ -- weirdly cute Webcartoons

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,269
    My solution is that take downs on un-alert enemies takes no bars. I found that almost all my bars went to hidden take downs and that if I didn't do them then energy was much more useable. Maybe even remove that one regenerating bar because you won't need it anymore sense you can takedown enemies without it.

  3. #3
    No need for the huge wall o' text, the best solution without a complete redesign is in your sig:

    Only one Energy Bar should recharge, but should always be used first -- Or Takedowns and Wallpunches should only use 99% of one Energy Bar

  4. #4
    First, I'd like to know if there even still IS a problem. Because if ANY TWO BARS RECHARGE (which would be CAPITAL), I'd be perfectly happy. Which is why I want more info on what exactly "Two bars recharge" means.

    Second, there may be some people that are only now getting into DXHR... like the Wii-U people. Or many people on the other platforms. And they might come here for some info, so I wanted to explain why there were concerns before.

    But again, before we talk about solutions, let's hope we get some more info to determine if there even IS a problem.
    http://vgbastard.blogspot.de/-- a blog for gamers of a certain maturity
    http://lunartiktales.blogspot.de/ -- weirdly cute Webcartoons

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by P4NCH0theD0G
    First, I'd like to know if there even still IS a problem. Because if ANY TWO BARS RECHARGE (which would be CAPITAL), I'd be perfectly happy. Which is why I want more info on what exactly "Two bars recharge" means.

    Second, there may be some people that are only now getting into DXHR... like the Wii-U people. Or many people on the other platforms. And they might come here for some info, so I wanted to explain why there were concerns before.

    But again, before we talk about solutions, let's hope we get some more info to determine if there even IS a problem.
    I don't think takedowns should require charges at all(what, your forelimbs don't work without batteries? How the hell you aimin'?) They don't give us free melee options and then they make takedowns limited by a resource pool shared with other augs??

    Either that or allow takedowns to consume very little charge (like that move silent aug). If the game is too easy, then it's their fault the AI is stupid. Or the enemy placement is bad.

    By almost forcing us to seek out candy bars they are contradicting their own reasoning as to why regen health must exist: they don't want us to scourge for medkits but they are completely happy lettings us scourge for energy bars!
    Points at JC/Helios Denton having a vision to post-humanize the race: His vision is augmented!

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Pancho
    Only one Energy Bar should recharge, but should always be used first -- Or Takedowns and Wallpunches should only use 99% of one Energy Bar:
    Imo this or nothing.

    The vanilla system is ridiculous, but it's likely here to stay.
    An extra recharging slot opens up the opportunity for takedown and cloak abuse, unless they increase the drain of those two actions.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    10
    If it was up to me, none of the bars would recharge automatically. In my opinion, the problem isn't with a lack of recharging energy bars, but with the takedown mechanic itself. It seems that they chose to balance an overpowered attack by limiting its usage. I would've preferred if melee attacks were simply more interactive and challenging than pressing a button to watch a cutscene.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,158
    Also if it didn't make you immortal for the duration of the attack!

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by lolwot
    In my opinion, the problem isn't with a lack of recharging energy bars, but with the takedown mechanic itself
    Not opinion but fact

  10. #10
    Takedowns was one issue, Wall Punches another. For me, Wall Punches was actually worse, because it falls under my perception of exploration.

    By the middle of both my playthroughs (I'm a hoarder and a miser), I usually would have to leave protein bars and packs behind because I had no more inventory space, and just using it would've felt like a waste, especially if I knew there would be a wall to punch coming up.

    But again, it seems like the energy management has been changed, so before the whole "what would be the best solution/change/version"-discussion breaks out, I would want to know exactly how the new, improved system works.

    So, mods, devs, anyone at Eidos, could you ask and let us know, please?

    Thank You.
    http://vgbastard.blogspot.de/-- a blog for gamers of a certain maturity
    http://lunartiktales.blogspot.de/ -- weirdly cute Webcartoons

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by lolwot
    If it was up to me, none of the bars would recharge automatically. In my opinion, the problem isn't with a lack of recharging energy bars, but with the takedown mechanic itself. It seems that they chose to balance an overpowered attack by limiting its usage.
    Seriously. They created an inherently broken mechanic and then went "oh crap how do we balance this," and even with their balancing, it's STILL overpowered because you can still just spam candy bars while you're doing takedowns.

    PLEASE EM put a real melee system in the next Deus Ex. Melee combat was every bit as much of a "pillar" of the original Deus Ex as ranged combat, and it could never be reduced to a one-button canned-animation takedown. Actual melee combat would make for more interesting gameplay and would be easier to balance!
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  12. #12
    It's kind of sad when overall energy pool mechanic is such a mess for the sake of hocus pocus takedowns (which magically teleport you or make you invincible, no less).

    The solution to the energy-takedown problem was as easy as implementing a manual melee combat system, with the armblades, fists, or traditional melee weapons. If energy had to be an aspect of melee, slowly drain our energy when the armblades are drawn, or add an aug like "electrostatic discharge" in Invisible War, let it drain some energy and deal extra EMP damage. I don't know, anything but the current system.

  13. #13
    Wishing thinking, but would be nice if there were other ways to get energy recharge aside from just taking the energy pack.. maybe being able to fight and hack a port to gain the recharge or a portable recharging device. Takes so much room to carry all those energy pack and big bottles around. Also, definitely slow down the depletion a bit.

  14. #14

    Director's Cut Energy Management STILL broken

    I posted this in the other thread, too, but I feel this deserves more attention - specifically regarding the thread title.

    Energy Management was one of the most talked and complained about features of DX:HR.

    In essence, the existing mechanic - with only the left-most energy-bar recharging from "nothing", and "common actions" like a single takedown or a wall-punch costing you one full energy bar - this mechanic encouraged people to only ever have one bar charged, and only use power-ups to charge more once you need them. Eating a protein bar because you just spotted three enemies feels stupid and completely breaks immersion, but it was better than always fretting about having wasted a bar for a wall-punch, because you had eaten something when you didn't need to, used a bar that doesn't recharge instead of the one that does.

    The mechanic was counter-intuitive, often being compared to running around with only one bullet in your gun, because that bullet automatically recharges, and only ever loading more bullets once you get into a situation where more than one bullet is needed. It might make sense logically, but it goes against the grain of pretty much every gamer I know. You always keep your weapon loaded, and you always keep your energy as charged as possible - except in DX:HR, of course.

    With the Director's Cut many had hoped the issue might get a satisfactory resolution. They will be disappointed.

    With the release around the corner, I wanted to look into this once more. I couldn't find anything specific, so I went to do a little digging, and sadly found what I was hoping NOT to find.
    And I am appalled that Eidos apparently completely missed the point of all the negative feedback about the energy management. At least, that`s what it looks like to me, taken from these two videos:


    Important Sequences: @1:55-2:20; and @4:30-5:15


    Important Sequence: @0:50-1:05

    The sequences starting at 1:55, and then at 4:30 in the first vid, and at 0:50 in the second vid, show that nothing really has changed - except that now the leftmost TWO bars recharge instead of just one. NOT the first two bars used. NOT any two bars (@1:55 first vid). ONLY the leftmost two bars, no matter how many bars you have available (@4:30 first vid). And Takedowns STILL cost one full energy bar (@0:50 second vid).

    Why do I call that "nothing"? Because it still "punishes" people for having more than the now two recharging energy bars filled. It doesn't solve anything. If you have all five bars charged, you STILL waste one bar for doing a single Takedown or a Wallpunch - waste, because if you only had kept your leftmost two bars filled, those would recharge. Now people will simply run around with TWO bars all the time, instead of one like it used to be - and if you need more energy for something, only then will you eat a protein bar to charge your energy (feeling stupid - "Oh, enemies. Let's eat.").

    And even worse, now you can possibly do an unlimited amount of cloaked takedowns without the need to ever use protein bars at all. All you need to do is wait for your leftmost two bars to recharge in between. This might even make additional energy bars completely pointless, especially for sneaky, patient players.

    Of all the possible ways they could've changed the energy management, this might not be the worst, but I think it comes pretty close. And I don't understand why.

    I was very excited for the DC, but now, just thinking about this, already frustrates the hell out of me. It would have been so, so very simple to make this work out, without a new melee system, or making takedowns energy free, but this just completely misses the point. I would even say it's worse than before.
    http://vgbastard.blogspot.de/-- a blog for gamers of a certain maturity
    http://lunartiktales.blogspot.de/ -- weirdly cute Webcartoons

  15. #15
    This did not really need a new thread after you already bumped the thread that you made on the subject.
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  16. #16
    Hey OP, your suggestions (wall punch/takedowns drain 99% mostly) were great patch-ups to the system, shame they were ignored, but that should come as no surprise I guess.

    Don't worry about the two bar recharge addition being OP (which it certainly will be), it's exclusive to easy & normal; only 1 bar charge on hard. This is somewhat good, only I like to play on normal sometimes, now I'll be forced to hard, but I suppose I could do with the extra incentive anyway, especially if they have done more things that are only true/false on hard, fingers crossed.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Shralla
    This did not really need a new thread after you already bumped the thread that you made on the subject.
    First, I did not "bump" the thread. I brought new information to address the question posed in this thread, which is pretty much the opposite of bumping.

    Second, yes, it did deserve a new thread to unequivocally tell the people that had hoped for better Energy Management in the DC, that they will NOT get it.

    Anyway, I updated the first post in this, and hopefully the people that care about it will see it, preferably before they buy the DC and are let down.
    http://vgbastard.blogspot.de/-- a blog for gamers of a certain maturity
    http://lunartiktales.blogspot.de/ -- weirdly cute Webcartoons

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by P4NCH0theD0G
    And I am appalled that Eidos apparently completely missed the point of all the negative feedback about the energy management. At least, that`s what it looks like to me, taken from these two videos:
    Eidos? Fixes? Be serious. This is twice selling the same product. Eidos fu@k their loyal customers - sorry for words, but this is sumple true.

  19. #19
    i just don't get it. Why make any "changes" at all to the Energy Management, when in effect it does not address any issues, problems or feedback?

    I'm glad they changed the boss-fights and everything, but when I think about what annoyed me the most playing the original game, it was
    A) "Ok. Now to use my last Protein to fill up my Energy to prepare for the boss fight where I will need full 5 bars. Wait. Is that a punchable Wall? NOOOOOOOOOOO!"
    B) "Ah. Enemies. That calls for a Snickers Break".

    And people have been saying this over and over since the game released, and somehow they completely ignored it.

    I even got into email contact with one of the designers, JF Dugas, who said the reason behind the system was to stop the game from being a "Takedown Festival", and that was not what the game was about.

    Well, it will be a Cloaked Takedown Festival, now. And yet, you will still be annoyed to waste protein and energy bars on things you shouldn't have to waste them on.
    http://vgbastard.blogspot.de/-- a blog for gamers of a certain maturity
    http://lunartiktales.blogspot.de/ -- weirdly cute Webcartoons

  20. #20
    Indeed, a Takedown festival is what it shall now be with two permanently recharging bars, especially when recharge speed is upgraded fully.

    That said, the system works as it is vanilla. Not exactly broken, just terribly flawed for the sake of takedowns.

    Edit: Whoops, that suggestion I posted earlier is already in the game, silly me.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Indeed, a Takedown festival is what it shall now be with two permanently recharging bars, especially when recharge speed is upgraded fully.

    That said, the system works as it is. Not exactly broken, just terribly flawed for the sake of takedowns.
    I loved being a takedown machine!

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by merrick97
    I loved being a takedown machine!
    That's because you don't know better

  23. #23
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    That's because you don't know better
    I know that I love doing this!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvAe86KyWg

  24. #24
    Lol. That's one way of handling the situation with 0 casualties I suppose. Good work Adam!

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by P4NCH0theD0G
    First, I did not "bump" the thread. I brought new information to address the question posed in this thread, which is pretty much the opposite of bumping.
    When was the last post in that thread before your new one? Four months ago? That's called bumping. And in addition to your necropost in that thread, you also made a new thread right next to it on the message list with exactly the same information.

    Second, yes, it did deserve a new thread to unequivocally tell the people that had hoped for better Energy Management in the DC, that they will NOT get it.
    Well it sure seems like the mods don't agree with you here, and while I may not agree with them all the time, I certainly do in this situation. The people who frequent the forum pretty much read every new thread, especially if it has to do with the design of the game. You could have just posted a new thread and everybody would have seen it without resurrecting your old one.

    I'm not trying to get on your case, but your posts got merged for a reason. Posting the same information in two mostly recent threads is one thing. Resurrecting a thread that hasn't been posted in in four months and then posting a new thread with the same information is different, and definitely frowned upon.

    Regarding the actual subject of the thread, this sucks. They made the system worse instead of better. If these are the kind of changes we can expect from the next Deus Ex game, count me out.
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

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