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Thread: The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains

  1. #26
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    wow i feel really gutted about this. im starting to wish square-enix never laid their eyes on crystal dynamics
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  2. #27
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    Well, yes, the humans having "a word to say" is rather irrelevant imo. The series always thrived on praying on mankind, thus making it dark.
    My friend once stated that he doesn't like when humans lose. Well, my opinion is that the mankind is OP in nearly all gaming history (obviously) and that it should be put to add a bit more immersion into the gaming fantasy i.e no more humans as main characters.

    For an example the usual RPG always has to posses a human with a shield and a sword. For me that's the most boring class out of them all because it lacks innovation, it lacks imagination. It tries to deliver with the story, but even the story's cliche. I forgot whether there's an RPG where I couldn't destroy the barrels/spiders or to that effect.
    So, yeah, one of the reasons of why I like the LoK is because it's intellectually mature, properly made and gave an unique story for the gaming world.

  3. #28
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    Guys, don't say you're happy Dead Sun was canceled: now we're stuck with only the multiplayer part of that game. Think about it, it could've been awesome. Imagine how people felt when Soul Reaver was revealed ("what has it to do with my Blood Omen?"). But it opens up a lot of possibilities.
    While I'd generally agree with Milky that humans should stay vampire fodder in a LoK game, I can see where they're coming from with it. As Divine Shadow said in his article, humans seem to suffer a low fertility: am I the only one seeing the hand of the Elder God messing with souls here? Don't we know that new Guardians should be born and only humans can have children? That's why I think it would be justified to have humans becoming important again as they were pre-BO.

    I can think of a lot of tie-ins with the previous games. Obviously, there's a distinct lack of Kain in all that information, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been in the game. Of course developers aren't going to put Kain all over their portfolio with the title "unrevealed game" under it

    Concerning the Saradin, maybe they look too much like Raziel fan service to me too. But again, anything's possible and the devs could've come up with a good explanation for them. They are definitely an Elder God creation (soul sucking, zealots to him, ...) but just how they came to be, that could have been good lore. But now we'll never know.

    Edit: My imagination's running wild: maybe the Saradin were created by Janos who gave some humans the Dark Gift following a deal the Hylden (who held Janos prisoner) made with the Elder God. The irony would be rather sweet. Maybe the Asher/Gein merger happened because of a modified Dark Gift, that being Janos' part to undermine the Hylden/Elder God's plans, and ultimately help Kain.
    /EndEdit

    As for the environment, I agree they look a lot like what's in Darksiders 2. Not LoK-y enough maybe, but that's only a few screenshots, so who can tell.
    I'm more intrigued as to why the environment's lush like that again, with Kain's quest obviously not over.

    Anyway, it's sad that the game was canceled, but maybe the game was just not up to standards. We'll never know. But judging by all the latest news and developments, I'd rather put my money on SE changing its goals and politics. If we're really getting a Monday Night Combat-like game with "Nosgoth" -a MOBA- I'm not sure I'll be able to keep my cool on this matter. Don't get me wrong, as a MP addition to a SP game, it would be interesting, but releasing it on its own? What part of story driven gameplay did you get wrong, SquareEnix?


    As a final note, but certainly by no means the least, I'd like to thank Divine Shadow for his incredible work. And I'd like to thank you for your previous work on uncovering Dark Prophecy as well. I was already lurking back in the day . You have no idea how all these artworks/screenshots have kept my LoK imagination/interest alive.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    Well, yes, the humans having "a word to say" is rather irrelevant imo. The series always thrived on praying on mankind, thus making it dark.
    Humans had a word to say in every LoK game except SR1. The Sarafan had a very successful crusade, Moebius's army reduced the vampire population to 1, Vorador's resistance was facing extinction. Even in SR1 humans have defeated the 3rd strongest vampire at that time and his army. Like them or not, they always had a significant role in Nosgoth.

  5. #30
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    I think I agree with Count D - they should have done a prequel story instead, ancients and the hylden.. I mean there is so much to show during that period of time. Do you think they might pickup Dead Sun if mp Nosgoth game proves to sell ok?

  6. #31
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    Mom! Thank you for birthing us. I hope this topic can stay, and that you manage to keep out of jail! The hard truths contained here are more like tough love than a mother's love. But single parents today have to do it all, huh.

    Have you heard Gein said aloud by anyone? Were they pronouncing it Ghee-Inn? (Hopefully not "Gene."---although that might have been a barely-hidden meaning behind the name?)

    The rare human pregnancy could be related to the unique soul migration of Asher into Gein, with Asher clearing the way for souls to reincarnate into humans again after something had been blocking that from happening, thus preventing human births. (Just taking a shot at the new info. The two events together reminded me of Babylon 5 and how that series employed shifts in the flow of reincarnation between species).

    Re: Reina's concern about the new look for the vampire future.

    I'm pleased they finally made a fist and were willing to change something instead of abiding by the silly long-standing 'rule' about keeping the future the same despite all the paradox changes to the past. It was time for a changed future. Vampires evolve, and the far future vamps should look different than the near future. If Raziel's blue skin was the start of them eventually reaching this strange zenith of their development, cooler still. If you combine Raziel's avatar skin and his linked vishnu/shiva (destroyer/savior) functions, then add in the Wheel's focus on reincarnation, and the slaughs and demons cast as Nosgoth's equivalent of asuras, and we're playing a very Hindu series whether we admit it or not.

    I like the idea of the god finally getting his way again in the distant future, too, as if he really was the winner of the waiting game and the future prooves it. Whacha gonna do now that you see that in the chronoplast, Kain? That's daunting. Impressive. The 3 millennium long nightmare we think of as LOK was just a low point for EG, the chaotic period between his empires. False God! False God! Once and Future Squid! He's once more trapped the vampires into an evolutionary rut that serves his purposes. He's neutered the Raziel threat once and for all! (Until yet further timeline changes happen, anyway, which may have been what the new protagonist was all about.)


    Re: Dead Sun as the title. Deja vu, man. I remember talking about this, about how Obsidian Blood was the most LOK-relevant title on their short list, but was too weird to use. Too obscure for non-players of BloodOmen. And Obsidian Sun sounded more formal and eloquent than Dead Sun, but they would still do better with Dead Sun because everybody could grasp that meaning at a glance. Ha! And Dead Sun it was.

    So, as a five-year-old, I'm imagining these games now: the Dark Prophecy was going to be that an eternal eclipse would cover the earth in darkness, Kain would start to smirk at hearing that but then his informer would inform him that it's a apocalyptic darkness even vampires won't like. Then Dead Sun would give us a look at that armageddon age when the great darkness comes to pass. (as a metaphorical darkness of the soul???)

    Well, 'tis a shame. .......Carry on. As you were. Etc.

  7. #32
    Alright I´m now going to jump on the anti-Nosgoth bandwagon. I mean seriously how can a game such as Dead Sun's multiplayer be released when they had a far more awesome game known as The Dark Prophecy in production? I mean seriously?!

    But I guess I'll have to follow this for now:


  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoks View Post
    Humans had a word to say in every LoK game except SR1. The Sarafan had a very successful crusade, Moebius's army reduced the vampire population to 1, Vorador's resistance was facing extinction. Even in SR1 humans have defeated the 3rd strongest vampire at that time and his army. Like them or not, they always had a significant role in Nosgoth.
    What I mean is that the series never had a human protagonist. So, it was never about saving the mankind. And that's positive imo.
    Well, Kain was human but that doesn't make the series what they are now.
    ---

    OnTopic : The devolution of the clan leaders was present because of Kain. And it affected entire Nosgoth, not just the direct cause of the Kain's corruption. So, it's impossible to have the naturally evolutionist cause for the existence of the blue-skinned vampire race. Even so for those 500 years where there was no Raziel something must've triggered the rest of the clans. We don't see that. Not even the slightest. In fact, Raziel was blue only when he was in the undead 2 form. Neither did Vorador turn blue. Nor did Kain. Not any of them got the wings. So it's illogical given the evolution aspect.

    The only logical explanation is that some of the Razielim fled before the genocide. In fact, the question is whether there was the genocide or not. Prehaps Kain said "k, now fly away or you die. Because your role is that and that. Your choice." But still that leaves Moebius blind/ignorant of the Saradin as well as EG being secretive of the future.
    If EG truly had the ability to place a soul-link that'll feed him those Saradins must have been of his origin/influence.

    So the whole concept only opens a lot of new questions and really doesn't answer to anything regarding the series so far. In fact, it promotes the human survival in the series where humans are supposed to be a sub-race and are presented as one.

    ---

    Edit : In fact I think it would be superb if the Razielim fled and then turned into Hylden (somehow), but back in time, and slowly forgot who they served from the start etc but the hatred towards the vampires remained. Meh, just some thoughts flying.

  9. #34
    Really I am so sad about The Dark Prophecy, it could have been the best LoK title, I am even sadder by how we will NEVER know what happens next, we will never get an ending after Defiance Cliffhanger, Square Enix wanted a totally new character for Dead Sun, Sigh.


    I think Dead Sun was amazing, the story is really interesting, the character look on the other hand is not -check the new images in NeoGaf thread-, the combat looks totally awesome though, and the world is really beautiful -unlike LoK ?!, maybe I am just used to decay-.

    But the worst part for me is that quite frankly I don't want a new character, I want to play as Kain, I want them to finish Kain story, maybe afterwards I would be more open for new titles with new characters, if The Dark Prophecy was released ending Kain's story, then Dead Sun with it's totally new take, I would have 100% approved that.

    Well anyway I don't think there is anything we can do, I believe that one day we will get a reboot for the series, like what happened with Tomb Raider & Thief, I hope one that day come Legacy Of Kain Reboot would be actually good.

  10. #35
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    A reboot would still be lame and would possess a new character thus being completely unrelated to the original story.

    It's kind of what's going on with current game. Just name it Blood Omen reboot for the multiplayer audience. The principle is the same imo.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagren View Post
    As Divine Shadow said, humans seem to suffer a low fertility: am I the only one seeing the hand of the Elder God messing with souls here?
    You are not, sir. And thanks for framing it this way:

    Don't we know that new Guardians should be born and only humans can have children? That's why I think it would be justified to have humans becoming important again as they were pre-BO.
    Something came to me when I combined this with the new game info. If you look at the problem from the future vampires' point of view, they'd be thinking "okay, we're back, but we're still not back in charge of the pillars yet, because only humans are being born anymore, so how do we take back what's ours?" Then some vamp would say, "We could turn human guardians into vampires again, like in the Old World." Then another vampire would respond, "And how did that work out for us last time? Not great. We need to try something new and improved. A more permanent fix." (Silence)

    Then somebody would get the boldest idea of the last 1000 years: all vampires need to do is use their magic to turn their Guardian problem upside down. If the problem is that only humans are being born, REVERSE THAT so only vampires are being born!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it so humans don't get born anymore, and therefore won't be the ones called to serve as guardians. Reverse the polarity of the Wheel of Souls so that vampires get their reproductive powers back and humans are blocked. New vampire guardians will be born once more, and humans can.... learn to deal with the strange side effects, because who cares about them anyway!

    The grand sorcery used on humans might involve transferring the sterility part of the curse to humanity, or whatever. True, if humans weren't reproducing, vamps and humans would soon be driven to extinction by feeding. So...Hey, by feeding more carefully, the same set of immortal human cattle could last forever as blood donors for an entire bloodline of living, dying, reproducing vampires! You don't need to feed on 100s of humans each year if you no longer have that luxury. Just give your pet human time to replenish what you steal from his veins each feeding, like a golden goose you don't kill anymore because you've learned it's better to keep him around for the daily sustenence his eggs (veins) provide.
    (And as you said, Elder would have his powerful hand in the project, so changing the rules of reincarnaition to make this work is possible!!!!!!!! Elder oversees the river of souls, so he could build a dam to divert souls so they flowed along a new course.) Smells like more world-changing vampire ingenuity!


    Also,
    REBOOT
    Mom, they're saying reboot again! Ah, I'll always cherish the last 3 days when the talk of a reboot fell silent. Like the 3 days when Christ was in the ground, this brief moment in time will be remembered always as a pivotal point in history, when we were free of that word. .But in the beginning there was the word and the word was Reboot, and now after being laid to rest in the tomb for three days it rises again. ....So, do you reboot guys think there's going to be one? How should I feel about that? Is there cause for concern?

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    A reboot would still be lame and would possess a new character thus being completely unrelated to the original story.
    That may not be the case, I mean Tomb Raider got an awesome reboot, featuring the main character Lara Croft.

    The hardest part will be the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    So, do you reboot guys think there's going to be one? How should I feel about that? Is there cause for concern?
    Are you Pro-Reboot or Anti-Reboot ?!.


    As I said in an earlier post, look at what Square Enix wanted from Dead Sun, they wanted a totally new character with a new story, now look at Tomb Raider & Thief.

    You can see that getting a sequel to Defiance is probably not an option --sadly--

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_kain View Post
    That may not be the case, I mean Tomb Raider got an awesome reboot, featuring the main character Lara Croft.

    The hardest part will be the story.

    I'm not of that opinion. There's not a single reboot that made me to like it more then the original game.

    For me the concept of a reboot is one of the lowest and ugliest possibilities in the gaming industry. It's aesthetically and morally inconsistent, it's making something new out of something old, it's trying to present itself as "the original" while it most certainly isn't.

    I approve a reboot of the game ONLY from 2D to 3D, but it's more of a remake then a reboot.

    ---

    So, develop an engine, make animations and all but use the original voices to place in the new animations. We've seen it's possible in the Lara Croft thingy. And be a good guy developer. While doing that SCRATCH THE NEW CHARACTER idiocy and make a proper 6th installment. THEN make a mmo/moba/whichever. That's the just way to go.
    As usual the reboots are different then the original games and it can't work when there's a strong story and when it's awaiting the closure. LoK simply is not just any regular game IMO and it needs a different and delicate approach.

  14. #39
    ugh! Dead Sun sickens me with its awesome! So many people working n such a gorgeous game, and no one is going to be able to play it! How can they go so far with something (so much work!) just to cancel it??? ugh!

    Although, this does raise an interesting question...if Nosgoth was meant to be the MP component of Dead Sun, how much of these beautiful environments will influence the new game?

    And will Asher/Gein be a playable character?

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    Then somebody would get the boldest idea of the last 1000 years: all vampires need to do is use their magic to turn their Guardian problem upside down. [B]If the problem is that only humans are being born, REVERSE THAT so only vampires are being born!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it so humans don't get born anymore, and therefore won't be the ones called to serve as guardians. Reverse the polarity of the Wheel of Souls so that vampires get their reproductive powers back and humans are blocked. New vampire guardians will be born once more, and humans can.... learn to deal with the strange side effects, because who cares about them anyway!
    This was what I was thinking. If Dead Sun was to take place in the distant future after Soul Reaver, I would assume that perhaps Kain was able to restore the Pillars and also defeated the Elder God. We simply do not know for sure, nor have the specifics of Kain's future exploits. Dead Sun could be showing Nosgoth's rebirth as it is slowly restoring itself to its former glory after its damnation, which would explain why it's a bit greener and these Saradin have appeared. Perhaps Kain is able to start a new line of vampires, and something to do with Raziel's soul, allows these Saradin vampires to devour souls? The Pillars belong to the vampires, so if the Hylden were able to make the Ancients sterile, why can't the vampires do the same to some lowly humans to ensure the Pillars remain in vampire hands. Also, with regard to references to the Elder God, could there be some kind of cult devoted in memory of him, or did Kain not defeat him (yet)?

    I'm not entirely convinced with the story that was being presented in Dead Sun. The world looks nice, but it doesn't quite feel like how Nosgoth should.

  16. #41
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    Heh, am I the only one who thinks that Dead Sun exterior environment is exactly a mmo environment for some colorful spawn of bees and the bugs that someone dared to call "Earth Elemental"

    Call me traditional, a grandpa or a nut but I've never imagined a Earth Elemental which looks like a Nerubian spawn from a bad Mars movie.

    I must say that the blood interior photos look nice. Not amazing, nice. Gothic architecture is defined by light, therefore huge windows are needed which are supported by the archway. Not some small byzantine-gothic ones (although they do look neat).

    The flowers look like they're from The Elder Scrolls IV : Oblivion. The outside area reminds me of the colorful Kingdoms of Amalur : Reckoning.
    One thing is illogical, if the Sun's dead how are the flowers living? What about photosynthesis? Or do flowers also suck up souls of slain bugs, but only if their color is blue?

    Which reminds me. If it's a mmo I want herbalism skill. Being a vampire is tiresome over the centuries so there must be a contest for the best gardening skill. I'm sure Vorador's a huge fan of it. Let the max value be 667 for the sake of being original.
    Oh, and fashion. What's a MMO without magic furnaces which magically create hats against the imaginary sunlight.
    And RAW BBQ. Make it bloody. Human bbq. Deliciousness for the vampire community! A heart with garlic. With soy sauce etc.

    Because that's nothing compared to the things that I've seen in the past week, and I really wonder what's next?! We need a third major news like "LOL, IT'S NOT A MMO, IT'S ACTUALLY SP CALLED SIRENS". That would be most fitting.

  17. #42
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    Well at least I'm not the only one who thinks that Dead Sun looked cool and had some faith in them that they would actually explain where these blue skinned Vampires came from. I'm loving the concepts that The Squid and Bound2Fate are coming up with. I don't see why there's so much negativity towards this idea. I don't see how a new character is so bad, who's to say that Kain wouldn't show up eventually and Gein would meet him? The project's dead, but I would have been willing to give it a chance.
    And The Squid, I was absolutely not expecting that Babylon 5 reference. I didn't know you were also a fan (not that I'm trying to derail this topic).

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    So, develop an engine, make animations and all but use the original voices to place in the new animations. We've seen it's possible in the Lara Croft thingy.
    Are you referring to TR9?

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  19. #44
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    Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light DLC w Raziel wielding guns

  20. #45
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    Ah right, gotcha

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  21. #46
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    The character design funnily enough reminds me of that joke Raziel reboot character that Ber posted on the ‘another LoK rumour thread’ (page 3) but that just might be me.

  22. #47
    I’ve seen the post on NeoGAF about Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun and I thought you might want a bit more information. I can confirm that this was a project which had been in development - but which was cancelled.

    I know it’s disappointing to hear about these things out of context, and whilst some of the details released are accurate - some details are not. You know game projects can be cancelled for a variety of different reasons and I know it’s very hard to tell from images and info alone, but in the end LoK: Dead Sun just wasn’t the right game, at the right time… but you’ll have to take me at my word on that, I’m afraid.

    Obviously, it’s not usual for assets from cancelled games to be released, but given that there’s a lot out there already I thought you might appreciate seeing a few more images that were taken from the previously in-progress game.

    As you’ll be aware, we’re currently working on a multiplayer game firmly set within the Legacy of Kain universe called Nosgoth, which we’re very proud of. It’s grown in size and scope since its initial conception and we’ll be talking more about it in the future. While we’re not working on a single-player Legacy of Kain game right now, that doesn’t mean it’s not something we’d look at making in the future.




















  23. #48
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    Wow thank you for posting those George, its brilliant of you.
    I’m still not sure about the main character design but the rest of it looks pretty awesome, the artwork of environments look lovely. I like the weird Hylden type woman, the winged knights and female knights too! It looks like it could have been good, if the story was right and was explained properly.

  24. #49
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    It's unprecedented, and beyond the call of duty, for you to release those, George. Thank you very much.

    To me, the most distressing revelation here (outside empathy for Climax Studios and the loss of a full-fledged LoK title) is the notion that Nosgoth literally is half a game, or less, and was by no means ever intended to stand alone. I understand it's now more than that, maybe significantly more, but I dearly hope it isn't going to represent a somewhat cynical exercise into what might have been.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeythumbz View Post
    I’ve seen the post on Neogaf about Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun and I thought you might want a bit more information. I can confirm that this was a project which had been in development - but which was cancelled.

    I know it’s disappointing to hear about these things out of context, and whilst some of the details released are accurate - some details are not. You know game projects can be cancelled for a variety of different reasons and I know it’s very hard to tell from images and info alone, but in the end LoK: Dead Sun just wasn’t the right game, at the right time… but you’ll have to take me at my word on that, I’m afraid.

    Obviously, it’s not usual for assets from cancelled games to be released, but given that there’s a lot out there already I thought you might appreciate seeing a few more images that were taken from the previously in-progress game.

    As you’ll be aware, we’re currently working on a multiplayer game firmly set within the Legacy of Kain universe called Nosgoth, which we’re very proud of. It’s grown in size and scope since its initial conception and we’ll be talking more about it in the future. While we’re not working on a single-player Legacy of Kain game right now, that doesn’t mean it’s not something we’d look at making in the future.
    *sigh of relief* Thank you so very much George; I was seriously about to go on another rant when all this came to light. But I'm glad to know that what had been Dead Sun's multiplayer portion has grown and will hopefully stand on its own legs, both conceptionally and atmospherically. Dead Sun might have had been an interesting game, but I agree that it wouldn't have been the right game or rather the right direction for LOK. I honestly hope that one day a true single-player sequel to Defiance or another single-player chapter of this fantastic series will come to pass. Until then...I'm more than willing to give Nosgoth a chance. Thanks again.
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