Thread: "THIEF" @ E3 - June 11/13 2013 - GAMEPLAY VIDEO Discussion/Thoughts/Suggestions

"THIEF" @ E3 - June 11/13 2013 - GAMEPLAY VIDEO Discussion/Thoughts/Suggestions

  1. #501
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  2. #502
    from what I've seen and herd so far, I like most of things I've seen.
    With ability to switch focus and many ui huds off the only two things that I can complain about is unnatural hands position - you would see your hands the way we see Garretts only if you held them on level of your chin about 25-30 cm away from your face, which doesn't make sense, even in darkness one usually would hold one hand in front of him to detect obstacles and one on the side to balance.
    The other thing is this fog, I mean in game fog and shadowy fog overlay - I wouldn't mind it being there but the way it is now is too intrusive.

    The one thing I'm not sure about is pick pocket "cast time" I like the idea that it is not instant, but that cast timer doesn't feel right.

    Other then that I love what I've seen so far, just hope I can run it on me PC
    How would that be funny?

  3. #503
    So here is my feedback for Gamespot gameplay:

    I like:

    - return of rope arrows, but it seems you can use them only on specific points in the level (not locked for any wooden surface).

    I dont like:

    - xp system (this is not Deus Ex or Call of Duty)
    - GUI (comletely unsuitable aesthetically for this game)
    - eye shroud (stupid idea, it limits view) - is visibility gem really that old as single visibility indicator?
    - sliding feature (is it really necessary for this game?)
    - visible hands (distracting, not necessary at least for walking, running)
    - fog for entire level is nonsense

    That is all I can think of right now. It is probably to late to change these things or developers will not change them anyway. So damage is done. Im really angry they screwed this, especially when they say "This is Garret, this is true Thief game". Yeah right.

  4. #504
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    Originally Posted by auricgoldfinger
    His remarks about the lighting were interesting, because it's something I'd always wondered about myself. If I understand correctly, the realistic lighting presented a problem for level design because it has to strike a balance between being 'gamey' enough and the shadows placed in appropriate places for gameplay reasons, yet also remain looking realistic. The shadows in the old game could get away with looking less realistic and so the sacrifice of having a shadow in a plausable and realistic place to get it in a convenient place for gameplay purposes wasn't as great of an issue.

  5. #505
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    Originally Posted by lmprv
    lol that's my litmus test for whether I love a game or not. Last one was Gunpoint... woke up grinning like a loon and wanted to start playing immediately. Suffice to say I woke up with positive Thief feelings this morning... and played the gamespot demo another time .
    I have watched it about ten times now and, yeah, I really want to play now.


    Originally Posted by auricgoldfinger
    Thank you, added to first page updates.
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  6. #506
    Originally Posted by auricgoldfinger
    3:05 - takedown from the first person view and automatically dragging a body! Awesome!

  7. #507
    Originally Posted by KenTWOu
    3:05 - takedown from the first person view and automatically dragging a body! Awesome!
    Sadly it gave me a minor seizure. I just want simple knockouts.

  8. #508
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    Originally Posted by KenTWOu
    3:05 - takedown from the first person view and automatically dragging a body! Awesome!
    Doesn't make the third-person takedowns any less there.

  9. #509
    OK... My opinion after watching more videos is I'm still like what I'm seeing...

    I'm starting to mellow on xp and fog and "some" voice acting is very good, xp needs to be looked at carefully as a balancing mechanism, fog id turn off, and Romano and some other poorer voice acting I may be just about able to endure.... I have the feeling that in a years time after playing the game people are "still" gonna say Romano is a mistake, not because "he's not sr" its more his delivery of lines more often than not is just poor, disinterested and lack lustre. Again, I honestly moot this not as a die hard SR whinge; I honestly believe, if this had been the first thief game with no available comparison of actors, I would still say Romanos voice acting contributions that I've heard so far are, at best, 25-30% of the time well done and heartfelt with the rest sounded like he's reading his shopping list! Just.... Not...good.

    I hadnt noticed this "flashing" people were mentioning before, now I understand and yes its overly intrusive!

    On a brighter note, non-focus lock picking sounded as if its going to be like the dark mod lock picking... Sort of, after all they're going to have to use sound (surely) on PC as there is nothing to vibrate the keyboard or mouse. Please please please, on PC, make non-focus lock picking a lot more challenging than it was in deadly shadows!!

  10. #510
    Originally Posted by fbdbh
    Sadly it gave me a minor seizure. I just want simple knockouts.
    It's not immersion breaking third person view takedown, that's why I'm so happy

  11. #511
    Originally Posted by KenTWOu
    It's not immersion breaking third person view takedown, that's why I'm so happy
    Same. If this is how all the takedowns worked, I could tolerate it.

  12. #512
    Originally Posted by auricgoldfinger
    Speaking about how it's important that new players are not lost as a justification for the overbearing HUD, interface, etc. I hear this a lot from developers these days and it drives me crazy. What happened to the learning curve? Becoming better at a game as you play along is part of what makes the experience rewarding. Why should you be able to be awesome as soon as you start playing?

    Will we be able to knock someone out without engaging a QTE?

    He may have said too much around the 6 minute mark where he spoke about sales. Shows a bit of desperation. Like they are willing to do anything to increase sales. Not a good sign, but not surprising either.

  13. #513
    Originally Posted by KenTWOu
    It's not immersion breaking third person view takedown, that's why I'm so happy
    I'm in a sad position here, because I'm really sensitive of uncontrolled bobbing, tilting, perspective switches, basically everything with body awareness. My problem, of course, but I hope the options will be my friend.

  14. #514
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    Originally Posted by DESPOT
    He may have said too much around the 6 minute mark where he spoke about sales. Shows a bit of desperation. Like they are willing to do anything to increase sales. Not a good sign, but not surprising either.
    Which goes back to my remark about bravery.

    Here's a way to make a Thief game sell: make it a Thief game.

    The original Thief just wasn't marketed in the right way. It didn't fail due to something the game lacked. In fact, it didn't fail at all, it just wasn't a blockbuster like Tomb Raider of Half-Life was.

    Looking on review sites like metacritic, or game stores that allow reviewers, almost nobody who actually played it has a bad word to say about it.

    Stealth is more accepted and understood, if not popular, than it ever has been before. There's no need to ruin the integrity of the game with elements that don't really belong in such a game.

    The game will ultimately succeed or fall on what people say about it, and that depends on how good it is. The things they've tacked on aren't going to save a bad game from being a bad game, nor will people turn their nose at it if it lacks them.

  15. #515
    Originally Posted by thaff
    Same. If this is how all the takedowns worked, I could tolerate it.
    They were dumb (and jerky) in Dishonored, and that was first-person. They were dumb (but at least fairly smooth) in Human Revolution, and that was third.

    The issue isn't third-person, people. The common denominator is the takedown itself. In both cases, the developer is wresting control from your hands for a goofy, pre-made ninja move.
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  16. #516
    Originally Posted by contrarian
    STATUE, as I have proved with hard stats, the PC game market is DEAD. Life support is off. The plug has been pulled. The time of death was sometime in 2004 I think.

    The ghost of the PC market lives, though. The ghost haunts us with WoW, Starcraft, Diablo, and the SIMS. That is the entire PC market. Those games account for 99.9999999999999% of all PC revenue. When a new Diablo game comes out, the stats get so skewed that it looks like PC games are on the rise. We statisticians know the real truth, though.

    PC Thief sales: I'll bet less than 100,000 copies. Console sales: Multi-millions.Heck, EM didn't even want to waste their time developing a PC version. The whole ROI thing, you know.
    I happily quote you here: "PC GAMES are dead" That’s what is was replying to, because evidently they are NOT dead. I don't care about multi platform games, and I agree, that they sell better on consoles than on the PC. Nothing to argue about that.

    But your artificially made up numbers regarding the whole PC market don't convince me at all. Unless you stop making up silly numbers out of thin air and start giving some actual sources for your incoherent babbling, I think I don't have to argue with you anymore, because it always feels like feeding a troll.

    And just because a market is relativly small, this dosen't mean he is dead. You know how big the market for all those german hidden champions and mittelstand companys is? Tiny! Yet they account for almost 99,7% of all german corprate taxes and for 65,9% of all german jobs.

    There are hunderts of PC games out there in the making, as there are hunderts of hidden champions. So please open your eyes and accept the reality. The PC, as a gaming platform, is not dead.

  17. #517
    Originally Posted by auricgoldfinger
    In fact, it didn't fail at all, it just wasn't a blockbuster like Tomb Raider of Half-Life was.
    EM failed to see that Thief doesn't need to be a blockbuster at all. That's why Carmageddon: Reincarnation and Armikrog will be better reboots / sequels.

    Look at The Dark Mod. It is almost as satisfying as a sequel, but it didn't cost billions. Add SR to it, and there you go.

  18. #518
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    Originally Posted by xAcerbusx
    The issue isn't third-person, people. The common denominator is the takedown itself. In both cases, the developer is wresting control from your hands for a goofy, pre-made ninja move.
    For me, it's both (i've seen you mention elsewhere that you like 3rd person). First-person is the lesser evil for me if they're set on having these animations (they paid for them after all, so they'll want to use them). And there are different degrees to how jarring or seamless a temporary loss of control can be.

    I would mind the takedowns even less if you retained some degree of 'redundant' interactivity. For instance, Garrett holds a button to grab his opponent, then within a certain time-frame he can punch the guard or release him (and the button) with a shove. It doesn't actually have any practical use, you'll want to do the same thing in knocking him out every single time, but it gives you a reason to keep holding the controller, rather than just sitting back and watching.

  19. #519
    Originally Posted by DESPOT
    I hear this a lot from developers these days and it drives me crazy. What happened to the learning curve? Becoming better at a game as you play along is part of what makes the experience rewarding. Why should you be able to be awesome as soon as you start playing?
    Any stealth game (even a bad stealth game) is very complex. It certainly more complex than average game, cause it gives you new experience. It will be really hard to make special tutorial around every stealth system for new players. It's hard to make the first couple of missions as a tutorial without alienating fanbase, because tutorial ruins these missions during the second, the third playthrough. I'm talking about Thief 3 Deadly Shadows, its tutorial mission ruins your overall statistics every time!

    It's hard to make scripted tutorials when you make the game with non-linear levels. It will be better if the game will have optional HUD elements, which support all systems of the game. Especially when the game is pretty dark and lots of PC (Steam Big Picture)/console players will play this game on a couch in front of TV. That's why EM used white highly contrast HUD design, I guess.

    Originally Posted by DESPOT
    Will we be able to knock someone out without engaging a QTE?
    It's not QTE.

    Originally Posted by DESPOT
    He may have said too much around the 6 minute mark where he spoke about sales. Shows a bit of desperation. Like they are willing to do anything to increase sales. Not a good sign, but not surprising either.
    You know, Deus Ex:Human Revolution converts players into stealth fans. It will be great if Thief will made the same thing using optional HUD elements, pop-up screens, loading tips and difficulty levels.

    Originally Posted by xAcerbusx
    They were dumb (and jerky) in Dishonored...
    They were slightly annoying in Dishonored, because you should use two buttons to take the body after takedown. It seems that Thief 4 uses holding one button for the same thing. Like Splinter Cell:Chaos Theory did. And that's awesome.

  20. #520
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    Hi , as modder i can say , don't worry about " the hands " and the xp points , that could be removed easily
    from the game


    EM Please add in the option Menu " Show Hands " On/Off "
    " Fog Level 50/100% "
    " Play without Xp points , Old Style Hud"

    maybe is there away to Satisfied Everyone
    Adding options like these leave many satisfied customers, i think


    apart this things , i liked the Game Design, congratulations EM


  21. #521
    Originally Posted by contrarian
    STATUE, as I have proved with hard stats, the PC game market is DEAD. Life support is off. The plug has been pulled. The time of death was sometime in 2004 I think.

    The ghost of the PC market lives, though. The ghost haunts us with WoW, Starcraft, Diablo, and the SIMS. That is the entire PC market. Those games account for 99.9999999999999% of all PC revenue. When a new Diablo game comes out, the stats get so skewed that it looks like PC games are on the rise. We statisticians know the real truth, though.

    PC Thief sales: I'll bet less than 100,000 copies. Console sales: Multi-millions.Heck, EM didn't even want to waste their time developing a PC version. The whole ROI thing, you know.
    This is not true.

    Stalker SoC has sold about 1.8 mil copies, all at almost full price. And this was without proper marketing for the West. Similar situation is with The Witcher series.

    And these are PC exclusives.

  22. #522
    Originally Posted by KenTWOu
    3:05 - takedown from the first person view and automatically dragging a body! Awesome!
    I liked it. Way better to do it in first person, of course. Although I didn't like the move itself, I think it's great, because it is simple, the violence is there just so that it could remove the obstacle(the guard) out of the way, not destroying it like the aerial takedowns shown previously.
    I personally like pre animated takedowns, I think if done right, they increase the flavor of the game. They should happen as a reward for doing something hard and, of course, they should be optional.
    In the Tenchu series, they are called stealth kills, and depending on the distance you were from target, you could trigger the animation or simply do the simple slash move. I don't know if they intended that way, but I always had control of when I would like to use it or not. It could be aplied here, I think.
    I like them because we can't do those things ourselves, we can't control both hands separately, for example, and it is visually gratifying, and I probably would do it If it were me in there. Things I also like seeing in movies, so I like it. No problems there. Take a look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yspt9dwa5n4
    These are awesome, for this game of course, and many of them are triggered by how you manage to control a situation. For example, if you can dodge and go behind the target. It looks great, and you did it.

    I have issues with the noisy, unnecessary violence. Again, if they are done right, and respect a thief stealth approach, I have no problems. Also automatic dragging is cool, as long as it is controlled by the player. I mean holding or not holding a button after the sequence, for example.

    I don't know if during the combat I can just aim to hit different parts of the body, or If i have to click those circles. I think they only show in focus, right? Let's hope so. That's a perfect example of how different combat animation can depend on a natural and intuitive combat scenario. If you aim for the head you are going to do something, and other parts of the body something else. This of course, is the complete opposite of those, press X, press O, press Triangle, mini games. at least you are in control somehow, not hitting a button whenever an icon shows on screen.

    Also, the lockpicking, I don't know how it works. the good part is that it can be done in first person, where you can see the hands operating the lockpicks.

  23. #523
    Originally Posted by HawkflyAway
    Hi , as modder i can say , don't worry about " the hands " and the xp points , that could be removed easily
    from the game

    EM Please add in the option Menu " Show Hands " On/Off "
    " Fog Level 50/100% "
    " Play without Xp points , Old Style Hud"
    The hands cause more impact than just visual. It briefly delays loot grabs, button pushes, pickpocketing, poppy grabs, window opening, door opening, lock picking and whatever else we haven't seen. They zoom the camera a little. Also, for when a guard has two purses to be pickpocketed, we have to watch a kewl hand-swipe animation after frobbing both purses. (I assume that's how it'll look, more or less, when we steal earrings off of ears, too.). Hands also appear to cause a need for contextual peeking and lleaning. All these things won't be fixed and made magically immediate by turning hands off. Hands require us to watch pickpocket icon meter bars (highly non-immersive and not tension building -- I hated them in Assassin's Creed 3). Will they do away with pockpocket delays? Hopefully.The devs have to code some game tweaks to make handless game interaction better.

    The old style HUD and HUD layout would be nice (better), including the old HUD graphics, rather than these flat, artistic icons like we're looking at Windows 8. With this new layout, you are forced to look in the corner to see how much health you have left, since it's small and paired up with a bright Focus meter ring, not to mention the visibility gem.

  24. #524
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    Love that Thief Gamespot stage demo. Everything was OK for me. Definitely getting this ASAP.

    My only complain is the game doesn't look anything next-gen.

    Ohh, and-
    #EraOfTheDog

  25. #525
    I think the Garrett who shot a guy in the neck in the original Thief trailer is canon, not the "You are an expert, don't kill anyone".
    This. So much this. I swear, auricgoldfinger sometimes seems like the only one here who can look at these games objectively.

    Folks, be honest: how long has it been since you've played the original games? I'm replaying TMA for the first time in about 5 years right now, and almost nothing we've seen so far from EM's reboot would be terrifically out of place in that game world, in terms of either tools, playstyle, or mechanics. Garrett kills multiple people in the intro cinematics of both TDP and TMA. The very introduction to the game showcases murder. In fact, it's only the intro to the maligned TDS that offers a non-lethal look at our favorite burglar.

    It's not just an issue of rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. It's that enough time has passed since TDP and TMA came out that we've been able to hone our own abilities to a razor's edge, such that anything less than a perfect ghost run seems inherently wrong somehow.

    But it's not wrong. If it had been wrong, I'd wager a significant number of people on this forum wouldn't be here, because we'd have found the game unforgiving and left for greener, more accessible pastures.

    The original games had a phenomenal take on difficulty levels, upping the ante from normal to hard to expert. But I imagine a significant portion of us started out playing on normal, and then moved to greater challenges once we'd learned to master the mechanics. And we grew to love them, and we learned how to take advantage of the Dark Engine's idiosyncrasies and the tightly-wound systems Looking Glass designed. But Thief was never an easy-to-master series. It's always been a slow-burner, and EM's reboot doesn't seem, so far, to be massively contradictory to that ethos.

    As for the XP system, the lead level designer explicitly stated it's for "competitive purposes." My guess is that their online component will be some sort of social network-y tally system to showcase how awesome you are at playing this game, brag to friends about your high XP, i.e. your genuine skill at evasion, looting, ghosting, infiltration...in other words being a thief.

    The third person takedowns aside (which, yes, are almost obscene in their superfluousness), this gameplay looks to me exactly like a souped-up version of TDP being played by someone who is working out the mechanics of a new game that they've never encountered. Which, lest we forget, perfectly described each one of us at some point.

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