Thread: DIFFICULTY LEVELS - & "Focus" mode

DIFFICULTY LEVELS - & "Focus" mode

  1. #76
    Originally Posted by Chilliwack
    It shouldn't even BE there...
    I don't care about it being there like I don't care about ai_aware_of_player and other cheats T1-T2 have. What I afraid of is that they will tell: "Right. You can turn it off. But we'll make sure you'll regret it many times". And then they'll look at statistics showing that 99% of players still use this feature from time to time with that "I told ya" attitude.

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by Chilliwack
    But having everything in my field of vision highlighted in blue.... It's insulting to my intelligence as a player.

    Wait, you mean this CANDLE can be blown out??? NO WAY!! I would never have figured that out.
    From what little information we have so far, it sounds like although you can use Focus to highlight interactive objects in a room, but you don't have to use it for that, and in fact, it uses up some kind of resource, meaning its usage will be limited.

    Focus sounds interesting for moments when you are confronted by guards and you can use it to barrell them over and escape.

  3. #78
    @xAcerbusx

    Your are not a dev, you don't actually know how Focus woks or how it feels and if it really will impacts your enjoyment of the game because YOU DIDN'T PLAY THIEF.
    You decided focus is bad just based on your preconceptions, you prejudice not experience.

    Also what is you argument against first person kills?

  4. #79
    I just realized what the focus system is like.

    It's like a game of Hide and Seek... except the hidden person is shouting "YOU'RE GETTING WARMER.... COLDER"... etc. It's ludicrously easy and not fun or suspenseful for either party. The person hiding has just made certain that he'll be found, and it's not fun for the seeker because there's no surprise, no curiosity involved. There's no hunting involved... only FOLLOWING.

    We don't want to follow a brightly lit path to a treasure. We want to HUNT for it.

  5. #80
    I pray that developers will put the fourth level of difficulty: GHOST MODE or Ghosting, after expert for old taffers who don't want their appearance to be noticed in the City. If they put this level of difficulty they will satisfy all of us who hate to hack&slash our way through levels and all the Thief series passionate fans will have nothing to comment.

  6. #81
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    Originally Posted by xAcerbusx
    Did you not play Hitman: Absolution?
    Even if 'Instinct' was "optional", the entire game was built around its various functions. At times, you were literally shoehorned into using it. 'Just don't use it' is a wafer-thin defense.

    Focus has to be removed. And those first-person kills along with it.
    Yes, I played Hitman: Absolution. I think it's already been pre-established elsewhere that you hate it and I don't. Regardless, the difference here is that the Instinct mode in Absolution was predominantly as a far less broken version of 47's satelite map which showed the locations of everyone on in the level except on the highest difficulty (which only showed the target). You're essentially complaining about a more balanced/far less broken version of something that was present in the game since Silent Assassin*. The combat functions of Instinct were only mandatory once in the game: the tutorial.

    And as good a comparison Instinct is for Focus, it's just as wafer-thin an offense to say it was bad in a different game that has completely different gameplay mechanics and made by a completely different developer, therefore it will be awful here.

    So I reiterate, until we know for certain just presume you don't have to use it if you don't want to. If it turns out you do, just don't buy the game if it's that much an issue. Don't demand that EM removes a feature from their game; it's not your place and it is, quite frankly, bad form.

    *I'm aware that Codename 47 had the satelite map, but it was functionally different then.

  7. #82
    Originally Posted by Cjail
    @xAcerbusx

    Your are not a dev, you don't actually know how Focus woks or how it feels and if it really will impacts your enjoyment of the game because YOU DIDN'T PLAY THIEF.
    You decided focus is bad just based on your preconceptions, you prejudice not experience.
    It's not bad because I decided it's bad. It's bad because the combat elements of Focus run contrary to the game's premise, and more importantly, its title! It's called THIEF! Not 'First-Person MMA Fighting Simulator'. And the fact that it's inspired by Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes - a despicably awful film with some of the gawdiest, most pointless combat scenes in contemporary cinema - lends further credence to that appraisal.

    Originally Posted by Cjail
    Also what is you argument against first person kills?
    I already explained why first-person kills are bad.
    But don't take my word for it. Play Dishonored.
    Half the time, you can't even see enough of your hand, your weapon, or the character that your hand and weapon are being shoved into to even know what actually just happened. The perspective necessitates a jerky, confused, muddled approach to contextual kills that yields more confusion than satisfaction.

    Having the game 'take over' and force the player to execute a chain of flashy and improbably-violent maneuvers that you have no control over, outside of initially pressing a button, is not a viable method of enhancing immersion.

    And because it's in first-person... it doesn't even look that cool, so you're not getting any eye-candy benefit out of it, either. It makes no sense.

    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    And as good a comparison Instinct is for Focus, it's just as wafer-thin an offense to say it was bad in a different game that has completely different gameplay mechanics and made by a completely different developer, therefore it will be awful here.
    So, wait...
    Your argument is that... because it didn't work well in a much more combat-oriented video game like Hitman: Absolution... that there's no reason to believe it would come off as completely forced and incommensurate with the playstyle of a game series that's renowned for its profound de-emphasis of combat and action in general? Like, say... THIEF?!

    Even as we're reading cartoonish descriptions of Focus-fueled combat, depicting Garrett using his grappling hook like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat to hook into peoples' limbs while he jams his heel into their leg to snap it in half?

    That argument doesn't need support.
    It needs ten feet of titanium rebar.
    signature image

  8. #83
    Originally Posted by eastern europe
    I pray that developers will put the fourth level of difficulty: GHOST MODE or Ghosting, after expert for old taffers who don't want their appearance to be noticed in the City. If they put this level of difficulty they will satisfy all of us who hate to hack&slash our way through levels and all the Thief series passionate fans will have nothing to comment.
    +1 assuming that mode will disable the extra ... focus / thief vision

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Don't demand that EM removes a feature from their game; it's not your place and it is, quite frankly, bad form.
    The whole POINT of this forum is to offer feedback. If we don't like something, we'll complain about it, it's that simple. If nobody criticized game developers, nothing would be improved upon.

    Also, I have to ask... Have you disagreed with a single thing EM has done with Thief so far? You rally so eloquently against people who criticize, but I have never seen you offer your own criticism of the company or the material we're presented with, like we the fans have no place telling the publishers what we like or don't like. How dare we have our own opinions.

    Really. Is there anything that you are even slightly concerned about? Or have you decided that the game is absolutely perfect, in the same way some people have decreed it as absolutely terrible?

    I mean, I have criticisms. But I LIKE things that I see too.

    I like that they have a lockpicking minigame. I don't mind the grappling hook in place of rope arrows. I kind of like the mask that Garrett is using now. I LOVE the new logo. His svelte figure and modernized outfit is starting to grow on me. I like that they aren't removing the steampunk aspects. I like that people are still thinking about the Thief series, period. I like the mods on this forum. I like the new music composer, if the leaked clip of his work is any indication of his skill.

    I do NOT like the focus system, as it takes away the challenge. And make no mistake, the game will surely be built around it. I don't like the "slow motion pick pocket" idea, or the fact that we will not be "forced to play as a thief" in a game called THIEF. I don't like the insinuation that certain factions may no longer exist.

    Is there ANYTHING about what they've revealed that you don't like?

  10. #85
    Originally Posted by siranderson
    +1 assuming that mode will disable the extra ... focus / thief vision
    Yes. As in, DISABLE the vision completely, preventing it from being acquired or upgraded.

  11. #86
    Dishonored uses mana, which replenishes, yet still, you sometimes have to use a secondary power in quick succession, which will prevent the first powers mana to not recharge. Then you will have to replenish it through consume of mana pots - or whatever.

  12. #87
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    Originally Posted by xAcerbusx
    ISo, wait...
    Your argument is that... because it didn't work well in a much more combat-oriented video game like Hitman: Absolution... that there's no reason to believe it would come off as completely forced and incommensurate with the playstyle of a game series that's renowned for its profound de-emphasis of combat and action in general? Like, say... THIEF?!

    Even as we're reading cartoonish descriptions of Focus-fueled combat, depicting Garrett using his grappling hook like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat to hook into peoples' limbs while he jams his heel into their leg to snap it in half?

    That argument doesn't need support.
    It needs ten feet of titanium rebar.
    I never said it didn't work well in Hitman: Absolution. It did work well. My argument is you're relying entirely on conjecture to make your point that Focus is bad when you have only a basic understanding of how it's implemented. You have not seen it in action and you don't know how optional it is. I'm saying why don't you wait and see for yourself before demanding that a team of artists completely strip out a gameplay mechanic they toiled over for who knows how long simply because you're having a knee-jerk reaction to something new.

    Originally Posted by Chilliwack
    The whole POINT of this forum is to offer feedback. If we don't like something, we'll complain about it, it's that simple. If nobody criticized game developers, nothing would be improved upon.

    Also, I have to ask... Have you disagreed with a single thing EM has done with Thief so far? You rally so eloquently against people who criticize, but I have never seen you offer your own criticism of the company or the material we're presented with, like we the fans have no place telling the publishers what we like or don't like. How dare we have our own opinions.

    Really. Is there anything that you are even slightly concerned about? Or have you decided that the game is absolutely perfect, in the same way some people have decreed it as absolutely terrible?

    I mean, I have criticisms. But I LIKE things that I see too.

    I like that they have a lockpicking minigame. I don't mind the grappling hook in place of rope arrows. I kind of like the mask that Garrett is using now. I LOVE the new logo. His svelte figure and modernized outfit is starting to grow on me. I like that they aren't removing the steampunk aspects. I like that people are still thinking about the Thief series, period. I like the mods on this forum. I like the new music composer, if the leaked clip of his work is any indication of his skill.

    I do NOT like the focus system, as it takes away the challenge. And make no mistake, the game will surely be built around it. I don't like the "slow motion pick pocket" idea, or the fact that we will not be "forced to play as a thief" in a game called THIEF. I don't like the insinuation that certain factions may no longer exist.

    Is there ANYTHING about what they've revealed that you don't like?
    You have every right to have your own opinions on the game. Yes, the forum is for feedback. But it is not the fan community's place to effectively make complete demands of how the game is being made. EM can (and I assure you, will) take feedback and make some adjustments to the design as well as marketing campaign now that they have it in gear. But, at the end of the day, it is an artistic effort and fans should not be making demands on how the game is made; it violates the artistic identity and integrity of the work. Constructive feedback and flat out demands are not synonymous, nor should they be.

    The other thing about having an opinion about the game is that people ARE going to disagree with you, and they not only have every right to share theirs but criticize yours as well. If it's civil disagreement, then it's just something you will have to put up with. If it gets personal or nasty, then report it to a moderator. I'm a game design student and I happen to be very open to change. I have had the stance for years now that games are made by artists. Artists should be free to interpret and experiment; the world is better off when they do. We have had one magazine article and a handful of screenshots. We know some basic information about the game mechanics, a limited plot synopsis, and have a good idea of the general visual aesthetic of the game. I have yet to see anything that is particularly egregious and I refuse to make snap judgments based on limited information. I’m not particularly fond of the new logo, but I understand the (potential) reasoning behind it. Other than that, I either like what I see or intrigued enough to wait and see more before deciding.

  13. #88
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    I think most experienced players would prefer a game mode where you could play without the focus mechanic. Some might say that it's optional to use, but that does not really matter, adding a game mode where you can't use it doesn't really take much time at all and would make a lot of people happy.

  14. #89
    Originally Posted by Chilliwack
    Have you ever seen a console game that could be heavily modded and changed if the fanbase thought it needed fixing? Have you ever seen fully user-made content like we see for Skyrim and Fallout 3/NV?
    There have been SDKs for consoles, though extremely limiting I would have thought, not SDK just editors/tools of sorts probably. But that is not the point, I was talking about the developers work and "dumbing down" plus all the abuse, the gold rush generation.

    If Thief 4 ends up having a mod kit/level editor... and I hope it does... I kinda doubt it would be of any use to an Xbox owner, or of any significance, since consoles generally don't accept user-made content.
    It won't, most likely. Still waiting for a mod kit for Human Revolution....

    Not to mention the fact that PCs are almost inifinitely backwards compatible. Do you want to play that old copy of System Shock 2 you have lying around? Someone's made a patch that can let you play it on your new systems? Can you play Wolfenstein 3D on your PS3? GOG.com makes it even easier
    Wolf 3D is on consoles, yes. System Shock 2 is a brilliant PC exclusive. Likewise consoles have some great exclusives too.
    Your just talking about the benefits of PC gaming I mentioned, not discussing the points I made.

    The PC just seems to respect previous gaming generations more than the consoles, which have a distinct "old is bad, new is good" outlook.
    Again, personification. It's the developers that have no respect for the classics, not the machines. The PC IS the superior platform by far, but consoles have many benefits, used to get great exclusives and are NOT responsible for dumbing down of a games content. Only the developers & publishers are responsible.

    OT: Focus mode should be exclusive to EASY/I don't want to use my head mode only, because that's what it most likely will be if all other "FOCUS" mechanics are anything to go by....Chances are extremely high It's just yet another franchise dumbed down and turned into something it's not. Something lesser. Being both a PC and console gamer i've seen this happen so many times. The devs had no idea what they were doing with this game, that has been made clear in the press, though not specifically spelt out for you. Sigh, Moving on here, I have my own games to make.

  15. #90
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    Originally Posted by Chilliwack
    I think a lot of the "hostility" we've been seeing on the forum today stems from the idea that Eidos is ignoring our suggestions and/or criticisms.
    It has been two days. The game is coming out in 2014. I think a lot people need to tap the breaks a bit as it got way too negative around here way too fast

  16. #91
    EM has certainly some time to implement minor features and to adjust everything so that commenters will have satisfaction. I can even imagine that EM has prepared multiple ways to change or improve major questionable design choices.

    Story and setting is fixed, that we can't really push in other directions. I'm not really impressed of this genericness and that the lore is at stake, but meh, whatever. Give me a solid stealth game - even if it's not Thief.

  17. #92
    Originally Posted by xAcerbusx
    It's not bad because I decided it's bad. It's bad because the combat elements of Focus run contrary to the game's premise, and more importantly, its title! It's called THIEF! Not 'First-Person MMA Fighting Simulator'. And the fact that it's inspired by Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes - a despicably awful film with some of the gawdiest, most pointless combat scenes in contemporary cinema - lends further credence to that appraisal.
    Focus just gives us the possibility to handle NPC in combat.
    It is the devs job/duty to give us the tools to deal with every possible gameplay scenario/situation allowed.
    Thief is about stealth, but if I am attacked by NPC, for whatever reason, then I should I be able to defend myself.
    Really you don't make a game where NPC can attack you in close combat and not make a functional combat system and gameplay possibilities can't be limited to what the hardware allowed us to have in 1998 or 2004.
    Also YOU say Sherlock Holmes combat scenes are bad but it is YOUR opinion not a fact.

    I already explained why first-person kills are bad.
    But don't take my word for it. Play Dishonored.
    Half the time, you can't even see enough of your hand, your weapon, or the character that your hand and weapon are being shoved into to even know what actually just happened. The perspective necessitates a jerky, confused, muddled approach to contextual kills that yields more confusion than satisfaction.

    Having the game 'take over' and force the player to execute a chain of flashy and improbably-violent maneuvers that you have no control over, outside of initially pressing a button, is not a viable method of enhancing immersion.

    And because it's in first-person... it doesn't even look that cool, so you're not getting any eye-candy benefit out of it, either. It makes no sense.
    Really YOU say it's bad to have kills in first person which is YOUR opinion, your personal point of view.
    YOU say they don't even look cool winch is NOT a fact is just personal taste.
    Thief will be in first person ergo kills in first person make perfect sense for game design point of view.
    There are may ways to do kills in first person and you don't know how Thief is doing them so you negative judgement is based on what exactly?
    You din't play or see the game and already claim first person kills are bad; no really how do you know that if you din't see/play it?
    Your arguments are based on assumption, syllogisms, taste and prejudice..

    Originally Posted by Chilliwack
    The whole POINT of this forum is to offer feedback. If we don't like something, we'll complain about it, it's that simple. If nobody criticized game developers, nothing would be improved upon.
    Having played the game, or at least having seen it, is required to give feedback
    Did you play or see Thief? Clearly not.
    Also the point of these forums is to discuss and in this case we discuss about a mechanic (Focus) of winch we know little about.
    Giving feedback on forums can be done done after release or in beta but not after reading a bloody article and without having seen anything but few screenshots.

  18. #93
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    It has been two days. The game is coming out in 2014. I think a lot people need to tap the breaks a bit as it got way too negative around here way too fast
    I am not suprised by the negativity here when you look at information presented so far. Every game or franchise have some identity and if you change this identity too much, there will be no recognition. Good example is Resident Evil series, Splinter Cell etc.

  19. #94
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    Originally Posted by Loneck
    I am not suprised by the negativity here when you look at information presented so far. Every game or franchise have some identity and if you change this identity too much, there will be no recognition. Good example is Resident Evil series, Splinter Cell etc.
    I'm not shocked either; I was expecting a negative reaction from a lot of people no matter what was release. Regardless, I think it's important people have some context to temper their negativity. It's been two days and we objectively don't have more than basic details and a handful of screenshots to go on. There has been a lot of leaping to conclusions and that really doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't give EM reliable feedback and it does nothing but artificially inflate people's concerns.

  20. #95
    what we need:

    Light gem
    GTFO with Focus thing and beacon
    Hammerites
    More darkness
    Dynamic Stealth with noise levels
    Ghosting
    Stephen Russell

  21. #96
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I'm not shocked either; I was expecting a negative reaction from a lot of people no matter what was release. Regardless, I think it's important people have some context to temper their negativity. It's been two days and we objectively don't have more than basic details and a handful of screenshots to go on. There has been a lot of leaping to conclusions and that really doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't give EM reliable feedback and it does nothing but artificially inflate people's concerns.
    You are right that we dont have more details (primarily gameplay videos) to see what is coming. But even with information available we can see something. And there is another thing that lot of people who play games for long time dont like that games are changing because of business aspect. You know that whole "we need broader audience" thing and "this game sold 20 million copies so we must copy it" thing.

  22. #97
    Originally Posted by Loneck
    You are right that we dont have more details (primarily gameplay videos) to see what is coming. But even with information available we can see something. And there is another thing that lot of people who play games for long time dont like that games are changing because of business aspect. You know that whole "we need broader audience" thing and "this game sold 20 million copies so we must copy it" thing.
    I think it's the other way around.

    "This bold and new looking game didn't sell enough, so careful now."

  23. #98
    Originally Posted by fbdbh
    I think it's the other way around.

    "This bold and new looking game didn't sell enough, so careful now."
    Yes this as well.

  24. #99
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    Originally Posted by Loneck
    You are right that we dont have more details (primarily gameplay videos) to see what is coming. But even with information available we can see something. And there is another thing that lot of people who play games for long time dont like that games are changing because of business aspect. You know that whole "we need broader audience" thing and "this game sold 20 million copies so we must copy it" thing.
    I don't see the problem with having a broader audience. I'm sure that will recieve a lot of "WHAT?!" replies, but I really don't. The more people playing games, the better as far as I'm concerned. If "Thief" is more accessible to more people, then good.

    As for the whole "this game sold x amount, clone time" thing I really don't think it's nearly as viralent a problem as portrayed. For decades, developers have watched other games and borrowed traits from successful franchises. Some have been poorly implemented, but a lot have not. Sure, there have been periods of rampant innovation; the late 90s could be considered a gaming renaissance in a lot of ways. Heck, I argue often that we are right on the precipice of another. But borrowing elements isn't anything new, so I don't understand why it's suddenly portrayed as a sudden trend.

  25. #100
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I don't see the problem with having a broader audience. I'm sure that will recieve a lot of "WHAT?!" replies, but I really don't. The more people playing games, the better as far as I'm concerned. If "Thief" is more accessible to more people, then good.

    As for the whole "this game sold x amount, clone time" thing I really don't think it's nearly as viralent a problem as portrayed. For decades, developers have watched other games and borrowed traits from successful franchises. Some have been poorly implemented, but a lot have not. Sure, there have been periods of rampant innovation; the late 90s could be considered a gaming renaissance in a lot of ways. But borrowing elements isn't anything new, so I don't understand why it's suddenly portrayed as a sudden trend.
    I dont have problem with more people playing certain game. I meant changing certain game too much so it will not be enjoyable for more demanding players and long time fans.

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