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Thread: What effect did Moebius's staff on Raziel's Soul Reaver?

  1. #1

    What effect did Moebius's staff on Raziel's Soul Reaver?

    Raziel remarked on this near the beginning of Soul Reaver 2, once he was away from Moebius's presence. I know that, when the reaver was near the staff's presence, Raziel could no longer use it for the time being. But was there more to it than just taking the power away from him? There has to be more to it!

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    That's actually a good point. When Kain returns at the end of Defiance, it seems that the staff only affects the heart, yet Raziel's soul has no heart, so why is it affected? If the staff is supposed to be affecting the Vampire's soul, then it should affect Kain, even with no heart.

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    It disabled the wraith blade from being used in the physical world. Raziel could still go Spectral and use it. It affects anything cursed by vampirism, which the necro vamps, Kain included, carry the curse deeper into their souls within their physical bodies. As I've noted before, I believe that the body acts as a shell for Kain's soul. The vampires before Kain's lineage have their curse in their bodies, like the heart for Janos, and I'm sure it affected Vorador in the same way. However, Kain, without the heart, had nothing physical that it can affect. It can't physically cause him pain, and his soul lies deeper than it can reach.

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    It's an inconsistency for the sake of storytelling. The big mystery of SR2 was "What's the hidden truth about the wraith blade?" SR2 ends with a big revelation, but we were given clues along the way so the revelation wouldn't seem to come out of nowhere. Mobius being able to deactivate the wraithblade with his anti-vampire device started us thinking about the mystery. It was more important to give us that clue than to have the clue totally make sense.

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    exactly my thoughts, Hylden. I´ll just add that since the wraithblade is a vampiric soul and not protected by a body like in Kain´s case, like you said, it will get disabled.

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    But Kain wasn't immune when his body was still forming an *airtight* seal around his soul AND heart; that's when the staff affected him and he was crawling around on the ground. Then, when he had a big gaping chest wound, according to this theory that's when the staff's powers should have been able get past his body barrier to attack his soul (where the deeper curse resides in necros), but that's when he's immune and standing tall. So what I'm observing is the inverse of what you're saying about bodies insulating necros.

    He's still cursed when he runs into moebius for the last time, cursed both on the outside skin and in his inner essence, yet the staff fails. So the staff isn't striking at the curse but at the vampiric? And his one originally vampiric body part has been removed. So the staff attack misses. ....Okay That's great, until you try to fit it together with how others are affected by the staff. Raziel's WB soul has no vampiric body parts and yet it gets struck down by the staff; it's only the curse that the staff could be targeting in Raziel's wraithblade. The living bloodcurse vampires like Vorador have no originally vampiric body parts yet they fall like flies. ...Because the staff's light is boiling the vampiric blood in their veins that some other vampire gifted them with when they were turned? Wouldn't that vamp blood be long gone? Isn't that why vampires have to live off of the blood of fresh victims? So that leaves nothing originally vampiric in Vorador style vampires, meaning the Staff must be affecting the curse in them. Inconsistent. But since this problem is well hidden, it's quite forgivable because the coolness outweighs the worry. Until now. Which is why I'm deleting this..... right now.

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    It affected the heart of Janos Audron, who's body was cursed, not his soul.

    There's no inconsistency. The staff can affect anything cursed in the material realm. It affects the flesh of the vampires before Kain because their flesh was cursed. It doesn't affect Kain's actual flesh, meaning his actual body that's not of Janos, as his soul is cursed, not the body. The body is used by the soul as a vessel, and empowered by it. A soul in a living body isn't manifesting in the physical world so much as it is simply empowering the physical flesh with life. It probably hangs right at the membrane from Spectral to the Material world, if you want to try and think of it like that. Raziel's Wraith Blade is only stopped by the staff from materializing into the physical world. Raz isn't sensing pain from it, as he senses other things, like its derangement, its ravenous hunger, etc. It seems to just recede back along the membrane from the physical to the Spectral, where it's safe.

    Raziel, himself, walks around fine, without being affected by the staff. His soul is also protected by the flesh barrier the body he wills together creates, so again, this all has been consistent from SR2 to Defiance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    this all has been consistent from SR2 to Defiance.
    Sure it has, Senor Flesh Barrier. Sure it has. Raziel should have at least felt a tad queasy under the Staff's heat lamp, since it affects vampiric things in the physical realm and he's a physically manifesting vampire wraith. Yes, he grabs whatever random (non-vampiric) matter is at hand to rebuild his body each time, but Defiance showed us that this matter is almost instantly infused with his essence (changing the appearance of each corpse he takes), so he should be susceptible to the staff. Also, he's "younger" in wraith form while the WB is from an "older" point in his life cycle. (The WB is further removed from the time he spent as an actual vampire). So Raziel the wraith should still have at least as much vampire stink clinging to him as the WB, and be at least as susceptible to the staff as the WB is. Yet the WB reacts to the staff and Raz doesn't. To cover for this, the Flesh Barrier notion is introduced. Fine. (Both wraith and WB are "unbound from fate," so that's not the difference maker). Eh.
    That was a nice bit though about the how the WB recedes unharmed into spectral after having its physical manifestation slapped down by the staff, since the staff's power doesn't extend beyond the physical realm.


    That's right, you've forever insisted that the curse didn't attack the inner essence of the Ancients but only their bodies, and then it mutated into having a deeper attachment to their souls later on in order to follow vampires beyond death when Kain mutated the species. I agree there was a mutation of the species (they went from being frozen in time in a kind of unlife to being actual dead things brought back from the grave). And the curse adapted to the new necrotic nature of vampires. But it feels wrong to say the curse was shallow at first and stopped at just infecting their flesh without extending to their essence. If we had to come up with a brief summary of the curse, wouldn't it be something like "A magical contamination that fused itself to the Ancients irreversibly, altering them into vicious immortal monsters in order to crush their spirit." ? Could that be achieved with just a surface level infection? Shallow infections can be cured. And they eventually run their course and die off. This thing was already fused to them on a very deep level from day one and has never loosened its grip. Do you think they never tried crap like skin grafts, severings, and transplanting their consciousness into entirely new uninfected bodies? They had a Guardian of the Mind and a Guardian of States, after all, so they probably tried all kinds of wacky stuff, yet the curse chased them down every time and kept them infected. I think it has to have been deeply bound to their essence the whole time or they would have succeeded in giving it the slip. Also, when first released, the disease found and infected each and every vampire without fail, probably only because it was magically keyed to their very essence. (Or else regular old airborn dispersion would have missed some of them and we'd have some healthy ancients still lurking somewhere!!!!!!)


    So here's the latest try to unravel all of this Staff business:
    The Curse bound itself to the essence of the vampire species.
    (Like how the material realm and spectral realm are bound to each other, overlapping).
    The Curse = the material realm body of the vampire species (who are now defined by the manifestation of nasty skin tone, fangs, bloodlust...)
    Vampiric Essence = the spectral soul of the species that gives them their sense of inner identity (which is now masked and overlapped by the curse, but is still buried in there somewhere, because Janos succeeded at passing on his species into human bodies, not just the curse).
    The reason the Staff came to focus on the heart:
    The traditional (and in-game) location for the soul is near the heart. Plus,
    The curse is a blood curse, so it naturally travels through the body and becomes concentrated around the heart because that's the center of bloodflow. So when a new vampire is turned by receiving the dark gift of vampiric blood, his/her curse sets up shop in and around the heart and his vampiric "lore" starts to accrue there like sludge. And the newly transfered vampire essence will go where the curse goes, since the two are bound and inseparable. So the underlying vampiric essence (soul component) also comes to reside mostly near the heart (its material world counterpart).
    Therefore, the vampires Moebius used his staff on would feel it sting them in the heart like a heart attack. But, due to how the curse and vamp essence were linked and both were accumulating around the heart, we have no proof which of them the staff was actually affecting. The staff could have been targeting the curse itself, or the very essence of vampires (which predates the curse). I guess Dan has stated that the staff was around during the ancient world, created by pre-curse Ancients. So that would indicate the Staff is striking at vampiric essence, not at the curse.

    Ummm, then how do we explain the staff's failure to affect Defiance Kain? 1) Is he no longer a vampire just because his one originally vampiric body part has been removed? No, that's not it. Vorador types were still vampires even without any transplanted organs from ancients, and they definitely weren't immune to the staff. So then 2) is Kain no longer cursed just because of the heart removal? Nope. Still cursed. Although the removal of the heart may be like severing the head of the snake, it might have weakened the curse and provided Kain with a chance to get out from under it. And the loss of the heart may have freed him from the greatest concentration of the curse which could explain why he's not setting off the metal detector at the airport anymore (the staff doesn't register a hit).

    It's too bad we can't point to 3) his spirit forge cleansing as the cause for Kain's immunity to the staff. But he doesn't even get annointed by Raziel until after the staff fails to hurt him, so that's not it either. That purification by Balance might be when the seeds were planted for Kain to one day break the curse for good, but as of now the curse is still "on", if not en fuego.

    Ah, #4 has been supplied by the weblord, thankfully:
    4) the staff doesn't affect Kain's actual flesh, as his soul is cursed, not the body.
    So the body-cursed Janos heart was the only thing holding Kain back. Take that out, and the staff can't do him like one of the oldschool vamps anymore. The evolution of the necros could even be described as a.... "staff infection" that rendered the Staff obsolete the way bacteria eventually overcome the drugs used to kill them. Kill enough vampires with that staff for long enough and vampire nature will find a way to develop an immunity.

    (Tim fell asleep at this point in the post and his social worker had to hit the "submit reply" button on his behalf.

    With kind regards, Mr. Kingsly).

  9. #9
    At the beginning of SR2, did the entrance to the big hall of the Stronghold mark the mimimum safe distance for the Reaver to not be affected by the staff??
    Is that answer based on Moebius still being at the Time Streaming chamber room?
    If the staff solely affects the vampire curse, why did it not affect the Blood Reaver??
    Was the Blood Reaver still using its curse power in the courtyard, and in the big hall when taking blood from the brotherhood?
    Was the wraith blade really still crippled forcing Raz to use the uncrippled Blood Reaver?
    When the wraith blade moved from Raz to the Blood Reaver "sensing its twin"; isnt the only mirroring of each other at this point the fact that they shared the same curse?
    If Raziel and the wraith blade were just twins of each other, shouldnt they have the same weaknesses? Wasnt Raz always the spirit in the blade?
    what is the vampire curse? the blood thirst? stirility? undeath?
    Is Raz above the curse with his remaking now that he is above those symptoms?
    If the irritants cant be reshuffled to fit the timeline prescribed, are the expelled??lol

  10. #10
    Oh i cant wait for the novels being written to answer all those questions devilworm! Ill probably write one too if find the time! Haha

    A staff infection? Really Squid? Really? (loved it! )

  11. #11
    why wouldnt the lack of a contradiction offer an easy answer to my question?
    If the staff ONLY affects the curse,and the ONLY distinguishable special factor of the Reaver is that it is VAMPIRE cursed; why shouldnt the staff disable the Blood Reaver as well??
    When Raziel (at the end of SR2) acknowledges that his wraith blade is disabled, and he is unable to shift into the spirit world, why should the Blood Reaver be an available weapon?

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    I don't think the Reaver had the curse on it exactly. It's never stated at all why it can drink blood. Some speculate that this was something that the Ancient Vampires had on many of their weapons and that the Hylden put the blood thirst into the curse as some poetic justice or something (um, poetic justcie? Is that what I'm going for here? I can't come up with the right term...).

  13. #13
    "The most formidable weapon ever forged by our swordsmiths...
    They infused the blade with vampiric energy, empowering the Reaver to drain our enemies of their precious lifeblood" Janos- SR2

    take it for whats its worth,lol.

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    Poetic Justice is the right term

    Squid, I love how you have to rationalize what I'm saying, and even balk at it a bit. The man with a thousand theories is actually having a hard time rationalizing one that simply goes off what the games present to us, visually, and with lines of dialogue

    When Raziel states the Wraith Blade is disabled, that's what it is. It's not writhing in pain; it simply can't be manifested into the material world. When Kain states defiantly to Moebius, "The part of me that staff affected is no longer in its place, but you already knew that, didn't you, Moebius?" He's not theorizing on this, or guessing. The heart was the only thing the staff hurt within him earlier, shown by the purple glow when he collapsed.

    I don't know why it has to be so much more complicated than the staff affects what's cursed and the vampires before Kain held the curse in their flesh, while Kain's lineage holds the curse deeper in their souls. It's just that simple I thank you for the novella, though; lol, even with a happy ending...

    Quote Originally Posted by devilworm11 View Post
    At the beginning of SR2, did the entrance to the big hall of the Stronghold mark the mimimum safe distance for the Reaver to not be affected by the staff??
    According to Raziel after he rematerialized into the physical world, he states that he was away from the affects of the staff and so he could use the wraith blade again. We only can have his testimonial on that.

    Is that answer based on Moebius still being at the Time Streaming chamber room?
    The answer could be where he is, or that he just knew that the time was right to turn it off. He is the Time Streamer, so he should know when and where Raziel will be far enough away. You also see Moebius turn the staff off by will in Deifnace when he leaves Kain on the ground, saying "You're strength will return after I've departed..." and after the "learn a little humility" part, the glow from the staff dissipates as Moe heads through the door. It's his will, so whatever he wants the staff obeys.

    If the staff solely affects the vampire curse, why did it not affect the Blood Reaver??
    As Zulgbrtzchllha noted, it probably isn't "cursed," just "infused with vampiric energies" and is also nothing living to be truly affected in any way. Or, of living flesh, or a soul. It's just an object infused with magic. You can't disable a knife with electricity, but you sure can a flesh being, for instance.


    Was the Blood Reaver still using its curse power in the courtyard, and in the big hall when taking blood from the brotherhood?
    Yup, as stated by Raziel. He feels it's blood lust as keenly as he ever did as a vampire.


    Was the wraith blade really still crippled forcing Raz to use the uncrippled Blood Reaver?
    Yup, again by Raziel's words. We only have his testimonial on these things, and with he and Moebius gone, that's as good as gold.

    When the wraith blade moved from Raz to the Blood Reaver "sensing its twin"; isnt the only mirroring of each other at this point the fact that they shared the same curse?
    No, I got from that that it was due to them sharing space for thousands of years, with the blade the "body" and the wraith blade its soul. The wraith blade has even taken the shape of the blade, it's so used ti being inside of it. After being symbiotically bound for that long, it should be able to sense that familiar space instantly.

    If Raziel and the wraith blade were just twins of each other, shouldnt they have the same weaknesses? Wasnt Raz always the spirit in the blade?
    Raz is always the spirit in the blade and yes, they share the same weaknesses. I believe the body Raziel manifests stops the affects of the staff, for instance, but otherwise, the wraith blade and he are one.


    what is the vampire curse? the blood thirst? stirility? undeath?
    As far as Janos, Raziel, and Kain state, it's blood thirst, sterility, and immortality.

    Is Raz above the curse with his remaking now that he is above those symptoms?
    He's above hunger of blood, but he suffers from hunger of souls, instead, like other vampire wraiths in SR1 had evolved.

    If the irritants cant be reshuffled to fit the timeline prescribed, are the expelled??lol
    I'd love to see in the next game Kain's actions bringing about the potential for utter apocalypse/prosperity, or his own expulsion. All, or nothing. The entire series has pushed toward this end, in my opinion, and it needs its climactic send-off

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    STAFF PROBLEMS FIXED!

    It's not targetting the curse, it's attacking the vampiric. The staff's use predates the curse and was first used by ancients on ancients, as per the Dan site (search on the word "staff"). Cabuco said the staff's magic specifically snuffed the hearts of vampires, but the WB had no heart and still was affected, so... I looked for a unifying theory and found one. Before it grabs your heart, it first uses something else to identify you as a vampire. (below*)


    Sometimes the staff appears to be targetting vampire DNA in the body (Vorador types). And sometimes it appears to target vampiric essence (the Wraith Blade, which has no vampire DNA to target, and is merely a vampire soul physically manifesting. Hence, "essence.") And on other occasions the staff appears to ignore vampire DNA entirely (in the case of Kain and Raziel) in order to target the deeper roots of vampirism radiating from within their souls (which it then fails to reach with its attack---not because the staff is blocked by their body barriers, by the way, but because their souls aren't physically manifesting in the material world like the WB is, so there's nothing to strike).

    That's one inconsistent staff!

    Kain and Raziel are still plenty vampiric on the outside too as well as in their souls, so I think the staff should have at least made their skin crawl even if it couldn't disable them fully. Because it's not like when the staff pings their skin it gets a reading of "No vampires here!"

    * The way to clear all this up is to say the staff has always gone after vampire essence:
    • Living vampires wore their essence on their sleeve (the energies that defined them were right there in the living skin),

    • WB was struck because it was physical essence, and

    • Necros can't be struck because they bury their essence deep in the metaphysical plane of the soul where Staffy can't reach
    .

    Bam. ^ The Grand Unification Theory for How Moebius' Staff Functions! So the reason the Necros are safe from its effects isn't because their curse is buried deeper inside their souls; it's their animating vampire essence that the Staff is targetting and cannot reach! (Both essence and curse migrated together, forever bound, leaving the necro's dead husk of a body behind and retreating deeper within, coming to reside in the souls of necromantic vampires and only breathing "life" into the body artificially the way a heat lamp only provides the illusion of a fresh hamburger. So the Staff has nothing to target but dead flesh on which it has no effect, since the necro's spark of life emanates from the great beyond.)


    As Zulgbrtzchllha noted, blood reaver probably isn't "cursed," just "infused with vampiric energies" and is also nothing living to be truly affected in any way.
    Another possible motive for why vampires had all those stone golums guarding their territory. Golums would not be subject to attack by the staff or any similar class of weapons that existed back then.

    ....But since the staff affects the vampire nature of its victims, why wouldn't it affect the "vampiric energies" of the BloodReaver? A bit of a lingering question. So it must be drawing a distinction between vampire entities, which the staff targets, and vampiric energies like in the Bloodreaver and golums, which escape the staff's notice. Like how there's some "fully loaded" hyldens with crazy green glowing hylden energies in their eyes. It's an added feature, not a separate entity. (????????) (In their case it kinda looks like they're sharing space with multiple hylden souls in there, though, don't it?) (This has been a digression).


    Merry Fangmas, you charmers.
    (Ever played the game imagining that you've used the Charm ability on Kain and are manipulating him like a marionette the whole time with your controller?)

  16. #16
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    Careful Squid, you almost referenced a source of information there.

    http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=572
    and Daniel's quote: "The Staff of Moebius was created during the time of the Ancient Vampires, when they were experimenting with Necromancy and Soul Stealing. The Orb itself was created within the forges of their Weaponsmiths and Necromancers (partially driven mad by the whispering Elder God) and imbued with the ability to possess the hearts of other Vampires. It's forged out of a giant Pearl, the only one in existence, and imbued with magics that made it crystal clear with a pearlescent blue finish. The snake represents the snuffing of the their hearts, as if paralyzed by venom, then slowly crushed and devoured. This is the pain Kain felt in his chest when he first encountered it, and why he was unable to even move despite being one of the strongest vampires to ever exist.
    Whichever Vampire held this could manipulate, perhaps even rule over others. Moebius was given the knowledge of this weapon by the Elder. Once he had it, starting the uprising against the Vampires became much easier. (I imagine it took him much time to find a way to get close enough to it to seize possession)
    "

    Not that it shows anything on why the staff effected the WB, nor does it particularly follow that the staff is inconsistent (beyond the SR2 redesign/retool which SK clearly hadn't foreseen) Have to say though, given what we've got on the staff, I'm really not sure about your 'GUT' feeling either. (okay I'll forget the puns in future)
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  17. #17
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    lol

    Ok, I've got a good answer for this.

    The staff was made to paralyze vampires' hearts. Janos' heart was used to curse Kain's soul with vampirism by Mortanius. The vampiric essence from the heart has been passed to Kain's very soul. Every vampire sired from Kain was cursed by Kain's soul, and the vampiric energies/essence from Janos' heart went from Kain to their souls. That could answer why the Wraith Blade soul is affected just like every vampire other than Kain, minus the heart, and still the reason Kain and Raziel aren't affected, minus the heart in Kain, is due to their souls lying beyond the reach of the staff (within the body, but not materialized in the physical world fully).

    That's my answer. For a more concrete one, I'd say ask Daniel Cabuco to clarify

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