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Thread: PETITION - Tweak disguise system

PETITION - Tweak disguise system

  1. #176
    Originally Posted by Deathmaker
    Signed.
    However I doubt IO actually pay attention to these threads, with the way they have already screwed us over.
    I pre-ordered the Proffesional version of this game, and it was a pretty huge disappointment
    Maybe you should pay more attention to the forums :P

    They already stated the system will be tweaked and a patch is coming

  2. #177
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    Originally Posted by Deathmaker
    However I doubt IO actually pay attention to these threads
    On the contrary, the devs read these forums every day and this very thread you posted in is actually one of the threads that is being closely monitored by IO.

    See the list of links in Nick@IO's announcement: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=130989

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  3. #178
    Disguise system discussion (please note, disguises will be patched)
    And this pretty much confirms that they are listening
    My client also wanted me to make sure the picture is the LAST thing you see. Please look at the picture, Mr. Clarence. -47

  4. #179
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    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    About masks, and the idea that making them effective would make the game too easy... Well, why was Blood Money hard? Why would this game be so much easier then?
    You did not read my posts at all, nor the ones I linked, otherwise you would not ask this question. Blood Money and Absolution are different games, exploration is a bigger part of the gameplay in Blood Money, you could affort to be unoticeable, since yous till had much to do. In absolution if you becomes unoticeable, the level is finished within 2 minutes.

    And concerning difficulty, you are jsut a bad player, what else can I say?
    Re starting a level again and again in Hitman has always been a part of the Hitman games, if you can't deal with the difficulty just try an easier mode.

    Im not for a god mode at all in Absolution, I am not for a major tweaking, it would question the fondamentals of the gameplay, the level design and the challenge. Hitman Absolution is supposed to be a hardcore experience in purist mode, I can't stand to see casuals always asking to remove difficulty from games.

    But I agree that some tweaks would not hurt in some parts, but you guys are too drastic. For exemple in the last levels there are two sorts of gards, the elit in full costume, and the simple soldiers with faces visible... Why can a simple soldiers can reconize me while I am wearing the elit full costume? Why can an elit reconize me while wearing a soldier costume? It is maybe made this way because it is the last level, and supposed to be hard, but it discourage you from using stealth and force you in the end to kill everyone.

  5. #180
    Originally Posted by chalkman
    And this pretty much confirms that they are listening
    To a certain degree. Nick also said the have no plans to fix checkpoints. Most people (even those who like the disguise system) hate user checkpoints. I still don't understand the original intentions of user checkpoints.

  6. #181
    Why do they hate it? Not enough or too many?

    For me they are ok - i get interrupted a lot so being able to save progress now and then is really important. I'll play again on purist next go round.
    My client also wanted me to make sure the picture is the LAST thing you see. Please look at the picture, Mr. Clarence. -47

  7. #182
    Originally Posted by chalkman
    Why do they hate it? Not enough or too many?

    For me they are ok - i get interrupted a lot so being able to save progress now and then is really important. I'll play again on purist next go round.
    None of that. Every NPC resets and the ones you kill magically come back from the dead.

  8. #183
    I'm with you on that part.
    My client also wanted me to make sure the picture is the LAST thing you see. Please look at the picture, Mr. Clarence. -47

  9. #184
    Originally Posted by chalkman
    I'm with on that part.
    I've never seen this in any other games. I remember reloading in the mansion wearing the chef outfit. Went downstairs and him and his "salt" were back from the freezer. It basically makes everything you do pointless and means you have to listen to them all over again.

  10. #185
    A message to everybody who actually defends and supports the disguise system exactly the way it is right now:

    * When the patch fix comes out, do NOT under any circumstances download it or install it. Nor any other patches that come out for that matter. Leave your, Absolution game exactly the way it is when it was released on November 20, 2012.

    So that way you will be happy and satisfied playing your copy of Absolution, Splinter Cell style. Hiding and sneaking around behind cover in the shadows making sure not to get seen by anybody. If that's the way you folks want it, then so be it. Far be it from me to deny you your Splinter Cell style fun in a game that was supposed to be, Hitman (hiding in plain sight wearing disguises).

    There problem solved.

    Now everyone will be happy.
    Doorman: Absolution. Tom Francis from, PC Gamer was 100 percent right all along: http://tinyurl.com/cqpv4wb Steam ID: Sean Rubin

  11. #186
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    Originally Posted by Sean Rubin
    A message to everybody who actually defends and supports the disguise system exactly the way it is right now:

    * When the patch fix comes out, do NOT under any circumstances download it or install it. Nor any other patches that come out for that matter. Leave your, Absolution game exactly the way it is when it was released on November 20, 2012.

    So that way you will be happy and satisfied playing your copy of Absolution, Splinter Cell style. Hiding and sneaking around behind cover in the shadows making sure not to get seen my anybody. If that's the way you folks want it, then so be it. Far be it from me to deny you your Splinter Cell style fun in a game that was supossed to be, Hitman (hiding in plain sight wearing disguises).

    There problem solved.

    No everyone will be happy.
    It won't be possible, because of the contract mode.
    People will have to have the same kind of game, with the exact same gameplay and tweaks for the competition. Therefore I bet every one will have to download the patch.

    So I hope you will be happy when you get your ultimate Sims simulator god mode.

  12. #187
    Originally Posted by SenSx
    So I hope you will be happy when you get your ultimate Sims simulator god mode.
    Their disguise system has never been 100 percent since day one anyway.

    In all four previous Hitman games, the disguise system was always 50 percent broke. (whereas Absolution's is 100 percent broke) Sometimes I would get my cover blown and sometimes I wouldn't. Some times I would get shot for just calmly walking around. Other times I wouldn't.

    I have never had a "god mode" disguise in any of the four previous Hitman games. 50 percent of the time it worked. 50 percent of the time it didn't work at all.

    So if that tradition continues with whatever patch they come up with, then you don't have to worry one single bit about me having some make beleive, non-existent "god mode".
    Doorman: Absolution. Tom Francis from, PC Gamer was 100 percent right all along: http://tinyurl.com/cqpv4wb Steam ID: Sean Rubin

  13. #188

    Red Face (Embarrassed) I've just signed up because...

    I would like to say something that nobody else seems to have mentioned.

    In order to please almost everybody, could the devs not provide us with sliders for things like Detection Distance, NPC Viewing Cone & Instinct Depletion Rate, and ON/OFF settings for boolean things like Face Mask Means No Detection & Enemies Get Suspicious of Strange Behaviour (e.g. Commando-Rolling)?

    This way, each person can play the game the way they want to play, which to me is the best gift a dev can give. If somebody wants the game to be stupidly easy, why does that matter to anybody else? It's not like it's a competition. Also, it would allow one to play through the game multiple times with different settings.

    I'm just worried that the devs will pick the settings that they think are the best and just hard-code them. The problem with this is that those settings might not satisfy a certain group of people, and we will be back to square one, with that group of people asking for another patch.

    To me (I am a software developer - not games) it would be crazy to not provide the end user with a slider-based system, assuming I had the time to implement one (it isn't a big task, it's just an extra screen in the options menu - not that I want to undermine the effort that goes into creating games). I can't really think of one good reason why you wouldn't want to afford the user more flexibility.

    This approach would also pacify the users in this thread who are exclaiming, 'there's nothing wrong with the game, you just suck at it!' The patch would set the sliders to the current values by default, which would mean that upon installation, the patch changes nothing. The people who like the game as it is can continue to like it, and the ones who don't can just alter the new settings to suit themselves.

    Having said all of this, I highly doubt that the devs will implement such a system. I believe that the patch will not allow us any choice in what changes are to occur and/or to what degree.

    If you're on PC you've got no problem, as you can just use the unofficial patch's sliders. But if you're on a console you're out of luck.

    Thanks to anyone who bothered to read my whole post,

    Tarquin

  14. #189
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    It has to be hard to disguise yourself because of the level design.
    If they make it easier, the levels will feel even smaller, you will see it by yourself. Smaller levels + easy disguise = no challenge, level finished in 2 minutes, no interest left in this Hitman Asbolution anymore.

  15. #190
    Originally Posted by SenSx
    It has to be hard to disguise yourself because of the level design.
    If they make it easier, the levels will feel even smaller, you will see it by yourself. Smaller levels + easy disguise = no challenge, level finished in 2 minutes, no interest left in this Hitman Asbolution anymore.
    There it is right there. One of the problems with, Absolution is that the majority of these levels are way to small. Go from point A to point B. And all this is just filler in order to give the appearance that the game is longer than it really is. So it's nothing but a sham.

    Take away the point A to point B levels. And give 47 the ability to hide in plain sight wearing a disguise like in the previous four Hitman games. And, Absolution turns into yet another Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days, 4 hours Angry Joe situation. Which is what IOI was obviously trying to avoid.
    Doorman: Absolution. Tom Francis from, PC Gamer was 100 percent right all along: http://tinyurl.com/cqpv4wb Steam ID: Sean Rubin

  16. #191
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    Originally Posted by chalkman
    Why do they hate it? Not enough or too many?

    For me they are ok - i get interrupted a lot so being able to save progress now and then is really important. I'll play again on purist next go round.
    The fact that there are checkpoints is bad enough... but the fact that the checkpoint only saves your progress through the level and not anything you did in the level is unforgivable and pretty broken in both game design and narrative.

    What's crazy is they created instinct, linear levels, etc to help eliminate trial and error yet the check point system has made this game the worst trial and error stealth game I've ever played. Levels like Run for your Life and the Orphanage are absurd beyond 'normal' difficulty.

  17. #192

    DISGUISE SYSTEM TWEAK

    yes and no. heres the idea:

    the disguise system needs some tweak, but not too much. and NOT ALWAYS!

    (i am talking about PURIST ONLY, i think in lower difficulties the disguise system is not that strict, but i didnt try, so sorry.)

    so i my idea is a variable disguise system!
    that would be perfect, depending on the situation and characters.

    in closed systems like the mansion or inside gangs the persons know each other and should be less tolerable about a new face.

    ok the gardeners and other employees have to be jealous if a new one arrives, but would they really run and call the guards in no time? i dont think so.

    in wide areas like china town, any cook cares about the other, so they wont even cry if you stay nose to nose (ok, then they actually should^^). the police in chinatown could be somehow in mid range detection, not actually knowing theres an assassin on the way.

    BUT in "run for your life", the cops are HUNTING you so they have to be very suspicious, espacially in the library, where a defined squad is working. maybe one cop could care more about than others, but the chief would now every single one of his cops!

    its just my idea, and if its possible in the code to define each NPC for its own, PLEASE DO IT! would be so perfect!

    Thank you for reading,
    gig

  18. #193
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    One fix for the disguise system could be if you are "caught" maybe give players a way to get out of it in a social way. Like press "X" to make Agent 47 say, "hey whoa man, I'm the new recruit from last week." To which a guard could say "alright, go on but I will radio this in." Then maybe if you walked away fast enough the guard would lose interest but his 'disguise sense' would be heightened for you from then on.

  19. #194
    Originally Posted by Razoric
    One fix for the disguise system could be if you are "caught" maybe give players a way to get out of it in a social way. Like press "X" to make Agent 47 say, "hey whoa man, I'm the new recruit from last week." To which a guard could say "alright, go on but I will radio this in." Then maybe if you walked away fast enough the guard would lose interest but his 'disguise sense' would be heightened for you from then on.
    nice idea !

  20. #195
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    Originally Posted by Sean Rubin
    There it is right there. One of the problems with, Absolution is that the majority of these levels are way to small. Go from point A to point B. And all this is just filler in order to give the appearance that the game is longer than it really is. So it's nothing but a sham.

    Take away the point A to point B levels. And give 47 the ability to hide in plain sight wearing a disguise like in the previous four Hitman games. And, Absolution turns into yet another Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days, 4 hours Angry Joe situation. Which is what IOI was obviously trying to avoid.
    The level design is the biggest flaw of the game. That is why such a disguise system is needed, to make levels harder to complete, they need more time, and you forget their smaller size, because they are intense.

    Originally Posted by gigabert
    yes and no. heres the idea:

    the disguise system needs some tweak, but not too much. and NOT ALWAYS!

    (i am talking about PURIST ONLY, i think in lower difficulties the disguise system is not that strict, but i didnt try, so sorry.)

    so i my idea is a variable disguise system!
    that would be perfect, depending on the situation and characters.

    in closed systems like the mansion or inside gangs the persons know each other and should be less tolerable about a new face.

    ok the gardeners and other employees have to be jealous if a new one arrives, but would they really run and call the guards in no time? i dont think so.

    in wide areas like china town, any cook cares about the other, so they wont even cry if you stay nose to nose (ok, then they actually should^^). the police in chinatown could be somehow in mid range detection, not actually knowing theres an assassin on the way.

    BUT in "run for your life", the cops are HUNTING you so they have to be very suspicious, espacially in the library, where a defined squad is working. maybe one cop could care more about than others, but the chief would now every single one of his cops!

    its just my idea, and if its possible in the code to define each NPC for its own, PLEASE DO IT! would be so perfect!

    Thank you for reading,
    gig
    I agree with that, but players would not understand when they have to activate their instinct or not if they don't know how the npc is supposed to react. Giving them some color code to see the difference between them would break the aesthetic of the game, that is the problem...


    Originally Posted by Razoric
    One fix for the disguise system could be if you are "caught" maybe give players a way to get out of it in a social way. Like press "X" to make Agent 47 say, "hey whoa man, I'm the new recruit from last week." To which a guard could say "alright, go on but I will radio this in." Then maybe if you walked away fast enough the guard would lose interest but his 'disguise sense' would be heightened for you from then on.
    Nice idea, I awlays told myself, why can't I speak?
    But it must not remove the challenge! So there must be some conditions to it, you must not be allowed to speak with them like that infinitely, or it would be an other kind of god mod. Makes it use instinct (but a lot!) would be cool, and being caught by an other guy would not always end bad for you.

  21. #196
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    Originally Posted by SenSx
    Nice idea, I awlays told myself, why can"t I answer I speak?
    But it must not remove the challenge! So there must be some conditions to it, you must not be allowed to speak with them like that infinitely, or it would be an other kind of god mod.
    Well with my idea it would be that you could only say it to that particular guard once and if he saw you again he would even be more sensitive to your disguise from then on.

    To make it even less exploitable you could even have it where if you told 3-4 guards that same line in a quick time span you would hear radio chatter talking about a "possible intruder in a guard disguise" and the "social option" would no longer be useable for the remainder of that level and/or until you changed disguises.

  22. #197
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    Originally Posted by Die Hard
    To a certain degree. Nick also said the have no plans to fix checkpoints. Most people (even those who like the disguise system) hate user checkpoints. I still don't understand the original intentions of user checkpoints.
    We do keep close tabs on what you guys tell us. It's just that some things, such as the user-activated checkpoint system, are way to complex for us to fix at this time. Hence the remark that it was very unlikely to get fixed. Listening isn't the same as implementing, though it would be outstanding if we could implement everything all people want.

  23. #198
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    Originally Posted by Razoric
    One fix for the disguise system could be if you are "caught" maybe give players a way to get out of it in a social way. Like press "X" to make Agent 47 say, "hey whoa man, I'm the new recruit from last week." To which a guard could say "alright, go on but I will radio this in." Then maybe if you walked away fast enough the guard would lose interest but his 'disguise sense' would be heightened for you from then on.
    Speaking of "getting caught" I think there's a really bad problem with the rating system. Since a guard that sees through your disguise will never go away and will eventually go to full alert every time, there is no clean way out of it. Then why the hell does the "Spotted" score penalty persist after you contain the situation by assassinating the witness? In the previous games, the equivalent was the "witnesses" count in the stats. And it did go back to 0 when you dealt with everyone who was on to you.

    It appears that the programmers at IO are unable to make things that remove things from the rating stats. If you are spotted, there is no way out of it even if you kill the person who spotted you. When you take out someone, you get negative points, and when you hide the body, you get positive points. There's no way to actually remove stuff from the stats. If there was, then there would be no need for "bodies hidden" stat. When you'd kill a person and hide the body, you would get a penalty and lose the penalty. Same thing, if you would get spotted and kill the witness, you would get a penalty and lose the penalty. Though you would get an additional penalty for the kill, which you would have gotten anyway because the person will keep homing in on you until he goes on full alert.

    ...actually, if the bodies hidden penalty didn't exist, then over-competitive players wouldn't be able to exploit it by hiding bodies that had nothing to do with their actions.

  24. #199
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Speaking of "getting caught" I think there's a really bad problem with the rating system. Since a guard that sees through your disguise will never go away and will eventually go to full alert every time, there is no clean way out of it. Then why the hell does the "Spotted" score penalty persist after you contain the situation by assassinating the witness? In the previous games, the equivalent was the "witnesses" count in the stats. And it did go back to 0 when you dealt with everyone who was on to you...
    That is a brilliant point, and doesn't to me sound like it would be that hard to implement.
    My client also wanted me to make sure the picture is the LAST thing you see. Please look at the picture, Mr. Clarence. -47

  25. #200
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    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Speaking of "getting caught" I think there's a really bad problem with the rating system. Since a guard that sees through your disguise will never go away and will eventually go to full alert every time, there is no clean way out of it. Then why the hell does the "Spotted" score penalty persist after you contain the situation by assassinating the witness? In the previous games, the equivalent was the "witnesses" count in the stats. And it did go back to 0 when you dealt with everyone who was on to you.

    It appears that the programmers at IO are unable to make things that remove things from the rating stats. If you are spotted, there is no way out of it even if you kill the person who spotted you. When you take out someone, you get negative points, and when you hide the body, you get positive points. There's no way to actually remove stuff from the stats. If there was, then there would be no need for "bodies hidden" stat. When you'd kill a person and hide the body, you would get a penalty and lose the penalty. Same thing, if you would get spotted and kill the witness, you would get a penalty and lose the penalty. Though you would get an additional penalty for the kill, which you would have gotten anyway because the person will keep homing in on you until he goes on full alert.

    ...actually, if the bodies hidden penalty didn't exist, then over-competitive players wouldn't be able to exploit it by hiding bodies that had nothing to do with their actions.
    Because your performance is not perfect. I find it normal that people that manage to be completely unoticed get better scores. Stop thinking of it as a realist simulation, but also as a game, it has to have as many scoring parameters as possible.

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