Thread: PETITION - Tweak disguise system

PETITION - Tweak disguise system

  1. #251
    Originally Posted by Sean Rubin
    That's odd.

    That's not the way it is for me at all. When I play the game, the detection distance is exactly the same way for me regardless of what difficulty setting I play it on. Ive played a level on Easy to see what that was that was like, then switched to Normal mode. But even on Normal, they can spot me from miles away with my back turned to them.
    Perhaps I've confused detection distance with how long it takes them to spot you.

    But I know for sure on Expert difficulty, the time it takes for them to be suspicious and for them to be alerted is tightly squeezed in comparison to the lower difficulties.

    I remember Tore saying the enemies senses were stronger at higher difficulties, and I can confirm that this is true for their hearing, but I've not done any concrete tests when it comes to their vision.

    Nevertheless, the disguise system is less useful in higher difficulty modes. It is a different beast. So to have a problem with the system on Purist, is not the same as having a problem with the system on Normal. I actually find the disguise system to be rather balanced on Normal, but that's just me.

  2. #252
    Originally Posted by Sean Rubin
    The disguise system functions the exact same way on Purist as it does on, Easy, Normal, Hard, and Expert
    I repeat: they should nerf Easy, Normal and maybe Hard levels, so you can do whatever you want like you did in Blood Money. But Expert and Purist levels should remain as they are, they shouldn't nerf NPCs detection system for those levels. And obviously fix every glitch in the game.

  3. #253
    Originally Posted by benjimino
    Perhaps I've confused detection distance with how long it takes them to spot you.

    But I know for sure on Expert difficulty, the time it takes for them to be suspicious and for them to be alerted is tightly squeezed in comparison to the lower difficulties.

    I remember Tore saying the enemies senses were stronger at higher difficulties, and I can confirm that this is true for their hearing, but I've not done any concrete tests when it comes to their vision.

    Nevertheless, the disguise system is less useful in higher difficulty modes. It is a different beast. So to have a problem with the system on Purist, is not the same as having a problem with the system on Normal. I actually find the disguise system to be rather balanced on Normal, but that's just me.

    Personally speaking, for me, they spot me at the same time regardless of the difficulty setting.

    Unless they have it different for PC and console.

    I play mine on the PC.
    Doorman: Absolution. Tom Francis from, PC Gamer was 100 percent right all along: http://tinyurl.com/cqpv4wb Steam ID: Sean Rubin

  4. #254
    Originally Posted by Sean Rubin
    Personally speaking, for me, they spot me at the same time regardless of the difficulty setting.

    Unless they have it different for PC and console.

    I play mine on the PC.
    Not for me. On Easy you can stand there for a good 6-7 seconds I'd say depending on the distance before they will spot you (Assuming you're wearing a disguise). On Purist it's less than 2 seconds. Without a disguise it's less than 1 second on Purist and about 4 seconds or so on Easy.

  5. #255
    Originally Posted by Sean Rubin
    Personally speaking, for me, they spot me at the same time regardless of the difficulty setting.

    Unless they have it different for PC and console.

    I play mine on the PC.
    I play on console.

    There most certainly is a difference of a few seconds between Normal and Expert.

    This must suck for IO, haha! So many people with so many different ideas.

    In my opinion, Easy and Normal are just fine. I don't think anything is wrong with them. Even on my first run on Normal, I could wear disguises just fine. Breaking line of sight, using instinct was all a breeze. On Expert though? It's broken. Disguises are next to useless.

    It becomes a less fun and more frustrating version of Splinter Cell: Conviction. I actually love the Splinter Cell series (including Conviction) but Hitman is in an identity crisis. What are you? A Hitman game, or a traditional stealth game?

  6. #256
    Expert is supposed to be hard and punishing, if you get frustrated just play Normal. You are not forced to play Expert.

  7. #257
    Originally Posted by Za Fuuru
    Expert is supposed to be hard and punishing, if you get frustrated just play Normal. You are not forced to play Expert.
    No, I appreciate that.

    But there are games that have punishing, hard learning curves (Dark Souls, most MGS games on their hardest settings) but the gameplay remains balanced. The essence of the game does not change.

    MGS is a sneaking game. Play on a harder difficulty mode? Sneak harder.

    Hitman doesn't know what it is. Play it on Expert and it becomes a poorly done sneaking game, in my opinion. A core feature has been made almost entirely useless.

    So while it's fair to say, "It's supposed to be frustrating." - that shouldn't necessarily be the end goal. The end goal should be a more challenging mode that forces you to become an expert with all the tools at your disposal. By eliminating a pillar of the gameplay, you've merely made a worse game.

    Of course, the parameters within which we define a worse game differs from person to person.

    No, you don't have to play Expert difficulty, but it would be nice if all modes played out like a more difficult version of the previous modes, rather than a totally different game.

  8. #258
    ^^^
    Well said sir.
    The essence of a game should still remain intact at higher difficulties.
    I have been playing Absolution only at purist and it saddens me to see that disguise are there BUT they don't work.
    It is like having wings but you can't fly nor glide.

    IO must not fear to fix dinguses and make them work because purist will still have features that make it more demanding: more NPC, no save mid level, no HUD, faster NPC reactions/awareness.

  9. #259
    Originally Posted by benjimino
    A core feature has been made almost entirely useless
    It's not a core feature, it can't be a core feature when you have small levels. This is not Blood Money, it's more stealth like Metal Gear. Core mechanic is sneaking. They simply nerfed the disguises because the levels are more detailed and smaller. On Xbox 720 they maybe could have made bigger levels with this level of detail, but they already said that current consoles limited their ideas and this game. With overpowered disguises this game would be a joke.

  10. #260
    Originally Posted by Za Fuuru
    It's not a core feature, it can't be a core feature when you have small levels. This is not Blood Money, it's more stealth like Metal Gear. Core mechanic is sneaking. They simply nerfed the disguises because the levels are more detailed and smaller. On Xbox 720 they maybe could have made bigger levels with this level of detail, but they already said that current consoles limited their ideas and this game. With overpowered disguises this game would be a joke.
    I'm not asking for overpowered disguises. Given the game's structure, an overpowered disguise system would make the linear sections even shorter. However, the disguise mechanic is a core feature and unique one that separates this franchise from every other snekaing game. In fact, in my opinion, Metal Gear and Splinter Cell do sneaking better than Hitman. What does Hitman do better? Disguises and assassinations.

    I guess I'm left in the middle of Hitman: Absoluton's identity crisis. When you remove a core feature (a feature that has an impact on the playability of the game) it becomes more limited and in my opinion, worse.

    When disguises are next to useless on Expert, the game is worse. Yes, it is more challenging, but it's a challenge I could have come up with. And I'm no game designer.

    Like I've said, other game series have increased difficulty levels that force you to use all the tools at your disposal, not take away tools that were there before. Those kind of challenges seaparate the good from the bad.

    I'm surprised with the people who want the disguises tweaked in Easyand Normal, though. For me, that system is pretty much perfect, never encountered any real problems.

  11. #261
    Originally Posted by benjimino
    However, the disguise mechanic is a core feature and unique one that separates this franchise from every other snekaing game
    It was once. Video game series don't have to remain the same for ever, look at Resident Evil 4. Look at the Tomb Raider reboot, look at the Devil May Cry reboot. Look at the Lara's new design, look at the new Dante. Video games change, there is no point in playing the same game over and over for ever. Disguise system in Absolution is not as important as in Blood Money, because levels are smaller. You have to sneak more just like in Metal Gear. If you don't like Metal Gear, you don't like video games.

  12. #262
    Originally Posted by Za Fuuru
    It was once. Video game series don't have to remain the same for ever, look at Resident Evil 4. Look at the Tomb Raider reboot, look at the Devil May Cry reboot. Look at the Lara's new design, look at the new Dante. Video games change, there is no point in playing the same game over and over for ever. Disguise system in Absolution is not as important as in Blood Money, because levels are smaller. You have to sneak more just like in Metal Gear. If you don't like Metal Gear, you don't like video games.
    Cool story bro. Problem is.. the entire game is built around a disguise system. Hitman did NOT change that in Absolution at all. In fact, Instinct was added to further enhance the disguise system. Not to mention there's a Chameleon challenge for every single level that to complete forces you to find every disguise. Are you even serious with your post? Hitman is not Metal Gear. Why would you even compare the two? Metal Gear is about hiding out of sight while Hitman is and always has been about hiding in plain sight. benjimino has it explained perfectly and you're so far off base with what you're saying I can't even take it seriously.

  13. #263
    Played some more old Hitman games today, and the disguise system definetly gives you a lot more time to straighten out what your doing than HA. Add to that, there is a suspicion meter and not just a "BAM you have been spotted -1600 points" which had given a real nice warning you were too close to the ragged edge. However, on the older games you could just walk a nice arc around the guards and protect yourself from suspension, and that in and of itself is acting suspicious.

    So I think what is needed is a slight adjustment. I don't think a meter would help that much because the envelop is too narrow to make use of it.
    My client also wanted me to make sure the picture is the LAST thing you see. Please look at the picture, Mr. Clarence. -47

  14. #264
    I would like to thank the lovely people at Eidos for considering the fans by (hopefully, in the near future) fixing the disguise system. I just have one question for the team; will this fix be available to your loyal console users as well? I don't PC game and have always played Hitman on Xbox. I would hate for us to miss out on the fix because we aren't using the PC version.

  15. #265
    Originally Posted by Za Fuuru
    It was once. Video game series don't have to remain the same for ever, look at Resident Evil 4. Look at the Tomb Raider reboot, look at the Devil May Cry reboot. Look at the Lara's new design, look at the new Dante. Video games change, there is no point in playing the same game over and over for ever. Disguise system in Absolution is not as important as in Blood Money, because levels are smaller. You have to sneak more just like in Metal Gear. If you don't like Metal Gear, you don't like video games.
    I love Metal Gear, and that's part of the problem. Hitman doesn't do sneaking as well as those other games, particularly on the Expert difficulty.

    We'll have to disagree on whether or not the disguise system is a core feature, because I believe it is. On Normal difficulty, I went through the linear A to B sections abusing the hell out of disguises and isntinct. The infamous library section was a breeze.

    I only take issue with the mechanic on Expert, where the feature is more or less removed. The actual essence of the game changes. Now it does become a relatively weak stealth action game, in comparison to the other great stelath action gmaes out there (Metal Gear, Splinter Cell)

    Series do change and Hitman is one of them. But the fact that I succeeded in using disguises 90% of the time during my first playthrough tells me that it is core feature. Once it was removed (not literally, of course) it felt like the entire game had changed.

  16. #266
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    Boy, am I glad that I've found this thread (and a lot of good arguments in here!). I already started to think that's only me. I'm glad to see I am not the only one who has major difficulties with this game.

    I'm playing Absolution on the PC in Purist Mode. I'm not taking down any NPCs other than my target. And I'm not using any disguise. At least, that's my plan.

    I was able to finish Chinatown and the Terminus Hotel this way, escape the rooftops, the library and the Shangri La. But now I'm at a stage where it seems impossible to play the game this way. Even getting a disguise isn't helping much. It seems to be absolutely impossible to get to platform B at the train station without getting spotted.

    So far, I've encountered (all without disguise):

    * Getting spotted by the Police even though I'm standing still in a crowd
    * Getting spotted by the Police across the platform through the crowd while walking (notice: I'm not the only character walking on this platform!)
    * Getting spotted by the Police through a thick crowd in a crouched position (I would have understood if the crowd had called me out or backed away from me due to my action. But a Police office spotting me crouched through a thick crowd? No way!)
    * Standing still in a crowd and getting spotted by a Police officer turning his back to me!

    The last one is my absolute “favourite”. It happened to me now multiple times that I was standing in a crowd, not moving, not doing anything and a Police office was turning away from me and- Ssshhhhhhhhh *WHAM* Spotted! And the exact same Police office that was just going to walk away from me turns around and points his gun at me.

    Getting a disguise (as a Police officer) definitely makes it easier to navigate platform A and to get to the signal box. But up till now I haven't been able to navigate the overpass to platform B without getting spotted.

    Funny thing is, the eagle-eyed Police can spot me in a thick crowd on a platform. But they don't care if I stand in plain sight right in front of them “hiding” at a rubber duck gambling machine.


    Now, I don't mind a challenge. I don't have a problem with trying these levels again and again until I get my timing right or realize that I was missing something or simply chose the wrong way. But that's not the point here. I have tried all that again and again. And I really think that the game in its current state – or at least at this particular point – is simply unbalanced (unless I am really doing this wrong and have missed the fact that I'm supposed to hop over to platform B over the tracks...).

    So, yeah, I'd welcome if the uber-awareness of the opponents could be tweaked to make it more believable.

  17. #267
    They really need to make big changes to this game...

  18. #268
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    Is there any news on a release window for the disguise patch? I think the patch would be great because it'll let you explore more when in Contracts mode and give you time to think about creative kills instead of rushing before you get caught. Also, for people arguing about the easiness it'll make it. THE GAME IS ABOUT CHOICE!! You don't have to put on the costume if you wanna sneak. Going guns blazing is easy too but they don't force you to do that. Disguises should be disguises, having to sneak in a disguise is nonsense. This patch definitely needs to happen ASAP, Absolution will be decidedly better than Blood Money in my book once this happens.

  19. #269
    Originally Posted by J0ESK0
    In fact, Instinct was added to further enhance the disguise system
    Instinct was added mostly to replace the laptop.

    Not to mention there's a Chameleon challenge for every single level that to complete forces you to find every disguise.
    It means nothing, challenges are basically sidequests.

    Metal Gear is about hiding out of sight while Hitman is and always has been about hiding in plain sight
    I'm talking about Absolution, I don't care about what Hitman has always been. We are talking about Absolution which is clearly more like Metal Gear and Splinter Cell than Blood Money which is more similar to Assassin's Creed and 'sandbox' games.

  20. #270
    Originally Posted by benjimino
    I only take issue with the mechanic on Expert, where the feature is more or less removed.
    That's what I said, it's not a core feature. Normal is not even a game, it's a joke if you can complete A to B levels simply walking to the end. You want the game to become too easy on Expert levels too, but that's unacceptable. You don't have problems playing Normal, but you want the game to be fixed? Why? Why do you think everyone should have the right to play hardest levels without any kind of problem? You basically want Expert level to resemble Normal level, it's pretty stupid. If you put powerful disguises in a game like this with small levels like those, it becomes a joke. I don't want a joke, I want to play a game.

  21. #271
    Originally Posted by Za Fuuru
    That's what I said, it's not a core feature. Normal is not even a game, it's a joke if you can complete A to B levels simply walking to the end. You want the game to become too easy on Expert levels too, but that's unacceptable. You don't have problems playing Normal, but you want the game to be fixed? Why? Why do you think everyone should have the right to play hardest levels without any kind of problem? You basically want Expert level to resemble Normal level, it's pretty stupid. If you put powerful disguises in a game like this with small levels like those, it becomes a joke. I don't want a joke, I want to play a game.
    Well, let's not start putting words in people's mouths, it compromises meaningful discussion somewhat. Haha.

    Normal is balanced, because it allows you to blend past certain enemies at the cost of instinct. However, even this can make things too easy.

    What I would like is a more balanced version of the Expert level. In its current form, Expert plays out like a worse experience and a poor imitation of stealth-action games that came before it.

    Why is it worse?

    Well, as a stealth game, Hitman suffers from a few mechanics that hold it back - checkpoints and triggered AI.

    Metal Gear and Splinter Cell are two of the most widely accepted and praised stealth franchises. These franchises have good checkpoints, and defined enemy routes. This is not so in Hitman. Hitman has an unworkable checkpoint system and a lot of enemy routes are triggered by the player.

    Because of this, you will often have to sit through lines of dialogue that you've heard over and over, until the enemy starts their route. Couple this with the awful checkpoints, and you have a recipe for disaster.

    A much simpler, and quicker fix would be to balance out the disguise system. Expert is already more diffiuclt because it contains a maximum number of guards, so why remove a core feature? I don't like to suggest fixes, because I'm not a game designer. But if I was pushed for an answer I'd say reduce the time it takes for an enemy to get alerted.

    That's all. Reduce a bit and disguises have a slight, but more practical use than it did before.

    Besides, much like you recommended players to avoid the optional Expert difficulty if they want a more balanced experience, I could recommend you avoid the "over-powered" disguises to enjoy your more balanced experience.

  22. #272
    You are basically asking for dumbing down Covenant's A.I. at Legendary level because they spot you from miles away and you find it too hard. Have you ever played Halo? Is it very hard? Sure, it is. Is it unbalanced? Maybe. But it's supposed to be hard and unbalanced. You are supposed to play at hardest levels when you know the game like you know your pockets. You are not supposed to play hardest levels during your first run.

    If you find Expert to be too hard, just don't play it. I don't get why you want to nerf the hardest levels of the game, you are not forced to play them. Just stick to Normal and let other players the chance to play a very challenging game.

  23. #273
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    Originally Posted by Za Fuuru
    You are basically asking for dumbing down Covenant's A.I. at Legendary level because they spot you from miles away and you find it too hard. Have you ever played Halo? Is it very hard? Sure, it is. Is it unbalanced? Maybe. But it's supposed to be hard and unbalanced. You are supposed to play at hardest levels when you know the game like you know your pockets. You are not supposed to play hardest levels during your first run.
    You are aware of the fact that IO decided to unlock purist mode for the first playthrough because of fan feedback? The reason was that people didn't want the excessive handholding of all the unfair clues and instict hints to give away all that can be discovered, on the very first time they play the game. It would severely cut replay value, because an important part of replay value is discovery.

    The only problems people have with the disguise and detection system is that it's counter-intuitive and the disguises are unreasonably ineffective. Challenge has to make sense for it to be enjoyable. If an enemy can see through your disguise in circumstances where you can't even see the enemy, it's unreasonably difficult. Not because of player's lack of skill, but because of bad game design. You can pretend all you want that there is nothing wrong, and torture yourself through a broken game, but you're not really enjoying it. The player should be able to apply basic knowledge of human perception on what they're planning in a game. You should be able to think whether or not you could recognize someone from that distance, and apply that on what you're going to do. The way the detection works in the game is not even close to reality, and it always detaches you from the experience when you discover that the enemies are supernaturally perceptive. Having realistic graphics doesn't do anything for realism, when the game keeps reminding you that it is a game, and the world in the game works in completely different rules than reality.

  24. #274
    @Za Furuu
    What we want is simply disguses to be less nerfed, to be effective at mid/long range, but not to be "spot proof" even at short range.
    I personally want to be detected if I am meters away from a NPC and I am looking at him (not while using instinct of course) but I don't want to be detected when I am 30 meters away for that NPC, I am wearing a SWAT uniform and I am turned around.

  25. #275
    Originally Posted by Nick@IO
    Yeah, that's not going to happen. The checkpoint system was never meant to be a save system but, arguably, the communication of what it actually does could probably have been better.
    im sorry, but if the checkpoints were never meant to be a save system, AND the save system you already have is unforgiving and crashes and corrupts, then essentialy this game has no good save system at all. and on purist mode that's like trying to push an elephant over.

    that's why i think the save system should be high priority of things to address. give us a quicksave at least!

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