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Thread: Did Raziel trust Kain more or not?

  1. #1

    Did Raziel trust Kain more or not?

    I again watched the story cutscenes on Youtube for Soul Reaver 2 and I got the feeling that, despite what Kain did to him in the original game, Raziel seems more persuaded by what Kain says than anyone else he has come across, including Janos. Does Raziel believe in everything that Kain says or does he trust him to a point? I recall hearing about Kain's one true trait is that he cannot lie and that he tells the truth everytime he speaks, although I am not sure if that's official or not, but mere speculation on my part. Don't get me wrong though; Raziel has said, a couple of times, that he wouldn't allow Kain to use him as a pawn for his "messianc delusions", something that I didn't hear Kain admit that he had throughout the entire series, but I got the impression that Raziel trusts him more than anyone else that he encountered throughout his journey.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    For the most part Kain tells the truth. The cold hard truth, or just enough of the truth to say that it's not really a lie. But there are two instances where I think Kain has lied. These both come from BO2, and I honestly havent listened specifically for lies in any of the other games.

    Kain finds Umah as a prisoner in the Sarafan keep, behind a glyph wall...

    Kain: What was it you learned in the Idustrial Quarter? Tell me now, in case I can not free you.
    Umah:Tell you now, before I am freed? What would you do in my place, Kain?
    Kain: I would offer my rescuer a token of trust.
    This is speculation but, had their places been swithced, I don't think Kain would have given Umah the information before he was freed either. I also think Kain would have left Umah to die, had she given him the information.



    Then immediately following the defeat of Sebastion...
    Kain:Tell me of the Nexus Stone, and this portal! What is it's purpose here? Speak, and I will spare your life.
    Sebastion: Come Kain, you lie in your throat and we both know it. You are going to kill me.
    Kain: Indulge me then, before you die.
    Here not only is Kain's lie pointed out, but Kain basically admits to lying.

    Kain's strongest character trait is his pride. Both an asset and a flaw. Kain simply has too much pride to lie about most things, and when he does, it's only to save him extra time and effort needlessly.




    As to your actual question of did Raziel trust Kain more than anyone else?

    Short answer: Yes.

    I personally feel that Raziel's primary character trait is that he's so gullibe (I love the guy too, please don't hurt me). He is very goal oriented, but when he seems to find his goal, he gets redirected to a new goal, and the cycle starts again.
    Perhaps Raziel doesn't trust himself, and so he follows the whims of everyone else. He is the only being in Nosgoth capable of doing absolutely anything he wants, but he would rather walk a path created by someone else other than blaze his own trail.

    I think Raziel, upon his remaking as a vampire, "deified" Kain, or at least had immesnse respect for him.
    But as he was cast into the malestorm of the abyss, he felt betrayed and alone. Making it easy for Elder God to manipulate him.
    But the act of Kain shattering the Soul Reaver on Raziel's back, and acting as if he knew it wouldn't kill Raziel, may have planted the seed of distrust with EG.

    In SR2 one of the first things Kain does, is give Raziel the chance to finally get his revenge and kill him. This isn't an act of trust on Raziel's part, but Kain's. Kain is the only person who clearly lets Raziel take the steering wheel.
    (This actaully contradicts my statement above about freeing Umah. Here Kain is the prisoner of fate, giving Raziel a token of trust.... But the circumstances are somewhat different, so I think Kain would have still left Umah to die.)

    Kain showing his weakness and trust in Raziel is, of course, going to make Raziel more sympathetic with him, if not actually trust him. But as I said, I think Raziel initally had great respect for Kain. So it's more like Raziel is forgiving Kain for his transgressions, and returning to the trusting/respectful relationship they previously had.

  3. #3
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    there's only 3 other people in the Legacy universe, so there's nobody else for Raziel to talk to basically.

    their renewed trust is shaky and tough to explain sometimes. maybe after looking up to someone for 1000 years you fall back into that mode faster than you or I would after a betrayal like that. Kain easily turns aside Raz's rage by talking about philosophy and long range goals for a couple minutes. Huh? The same unstoppable rage Kain had "counted on" to follow him back in time. (If this seems like a stretch, it propably was quite a stretch to go from the first plan of having Kain die to plan B of earning back Raz's trust).

    Well gee, let's go back to trusting each other again, Beav.
    Gosh, Wally, that sounds swell, but you better not assassinate me again.
    No, never.
    Never? It'll never be you who shoves me back into the reaver blade, even though your plans almost have to include having the soul reaver at some point???
    Nope. I wish you all the best. Even though what you just said is true.
    Okay. I mostly believe you. Because you've only betrayed me once so far, so it's not really a pattern yet. Only after 3 betrayals will I really be able to say for sure that you can't be trusted.

    (It's also strange to me that with one minute of conversation Kain was able to talk Raz out of killing him at William's chapel. That's an instant change in trust level. I wonder if, in the original version of events, there had been no conversation at all between them except for taunts, because they were still continuing their boss battle from SR1 and Kain had only gone back in time to arm himself with the available soul reaver on william's crypt. So all the chit-chat that ended up changing Raziel's mind enough to trust Kain again was really only part of the new timeline and not the old? (Their talk happened before the paradox, though, so for this to be true it'd mean Kain was forced to DO the things he'd seen in the chronoplast visions but was able to SAY things differently because the chronoplast visions didn't include audio??? Or, once Kain was in the same room as Raziel, the freedom of Raziel to consider new things loosened Kain up to where he could say new things. Then Kain was able to hand over the second reaver instead of using it in self-defense (the main trust-builder, made possible by Raziel's freedom to accept the offered reaver?) Eh.

  4. #4
    ....

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by devilworm11 View Post
    This reminds me of Raziel talking to Moebius, with Soul Reaver in hand(both of them):
    "Now that I know that you fear me, I need not concern myself with you."
    Raziel isn't stupid, but he has proven to be just that sometimes, like with that line.

  6. #6
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    Without getting too specific here, since my brain is utter mush at this moment in time ... I'll say that Raziel argues with Kain at just about everything throughout SR2 and Defiance, but he does listen to moments of truth at times that he cannot deny. He doesn't ever trust Kain until the end of Defiance again, though. Part of the reason why he listens is Kain's knowledge of him, and how they know each other so well. Like, ok, an example , how when Raziel thinks that he's got Kain in the argument at their meeting of the Pillars, and now he can end this banter and go in for the fight he's been waiting for, Kain basically makes his moment of glory shunted, almost into a shaming of Raziel, when he notes, "Let's drop the moral posturing, shall we? We both know there's no altruism in this pursuit. Your reckless indignation led you here. I counted on it." Raziel truly shuts up here, stopped dead in his tracks. Kain softens the blow, however, with "There's no shame in it, Raziel. Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest! Hate me! But do it honestly..." This fatherly reassurance right after basically making a fool of what Raziel thought was a triumphant win here, is just too much like their old relationship for Raziel to ignore, and it works for Kain. Things like this are what stop Raziel to listen "I don't know what made me stay my hand, why I had let Kain go after puruing him so far. But I was intregued by his words..." until he finally doesn't listen anymore in Avernus, seemingly feeding on the very rage of the Hylden souls he inadvertently absorbed/ate moments before.

    He's probably in a lot of denial about his lack of trust for Kain. It's hard to admit that you can't help but trust a lot of what the guy who betrayed and murdered you is saying, lol

    I think of the other characters, he trusts Vorador for being honest almost immediately, and Janos at first he trusts implicitly, having come to the vampires' side by the end of SR2. That changes for both the next time Raziel meets them in Defiance.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    Without getting too specific here, since my brain is utter mush at this moment in time ... I'll say that Raziel argues with Kain at just about everything throughout SR2 and Defiance, but he does listen to moments of truth at times that he cannot deny. He doesn't ever trust Kain until the end of Defiance again, though. Part of the reason why he listens is Kain's knowledge of him, and how they know each other so well. Like, ok, an example , how when Raziel thinks that he's got Kain in the argument at their meeting of the Pillars, and now he can end this banter and go in for the fight he's been waiting for, Kain basically makes his moment of glory shunted, almost into a shaming of Raziel, when he notes, "Let's drop the moral posturing, shall we? We both know there's no altruism in this pursuit. Your reckless indignation led you here. I counted on it." Raziel truly shuts up here, stopped dead in his tracks. Kain softens the blow, however, with "There's no shame in it, Raziel. Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest! Hate me! But do it honestly..." This fatherly reassurance right after basically making a fool of what Raziel thought was a triumphant win here, is just too much like their old relationship for Raziel to ignore, and it works for Kain. Things like this are what stop Raziel to listen "I don't know what made me stay my hand, why I had let Kain go after puruing him so far. But I was intregued by his words..." until he finally doesn't listen anymore in Avernus, seemingly feeding on the very rage of the Hylden souls he inadvertently absorbed/ate moments before.

    He's probably in a lot of denial about his lack of trust for Kain. It's hard to admit that you can't help but trust a lot of what the guy who betrayed and murdered you is saying, lol

    I think of the other characters, he trusts Vorador for being honest almost immediately, and Janos at first he trusts implicitly, having come to the vampires' side by the end of SR2. That changes for both the next time Raziel meets them in Defiance.
    Yeah, but you figure though; once Raziel opened his eyes to the whole picture and the real truth surrounding him, Kain, and everything else, I think his only true ally was and will always be Kain. It didn't matter if Kain murdered or betrayed him, because that's what we were all supposed to think; Kain ordering two of Raziel's brothers to throw Raziel into the abyss because he somehow surpassed Kain in terms of his evolution. We all now know that Kain threw him into the abyss because Raziel played a much bigger role in his plans. Raziel knew this, of course (once he figured out what Kain really wanted), and tried, I think, several times, to deny Kain of his ultimate goal; to restore the pillars and give it back to the vampires and not to the people of Nosgoth. But again, once Raziel realized that Kain was right about a lot of things (not everything though), Raziel came to accept the truth and aided Kain in the end, as his right-hand man.

    I don't know if I'm wrong in that analysis though, but that's what I gleaned when I played through all the games that Raziel and Kain were involved in together.

  8. #8
    KainFanatic192: Sure, once Raziel (and we players) gets the big picture he can decide to do the oft-used "altruistic" thing and sacifice himself for the good of many.
    But that doesnt mean that he trusts Kain. While I think Raziel does trust Kain (but not blindly) by the end of Defiance, I dont think that it would have made much difference if he didnt trust Kain.
    Raziel sees the big picture and has to sacrifice himself to the reaver for any hope of repairing the pillars and Nosgoth. It doesnt matter if he trusts, or even likes, Kain. He does what he has to to fix the world.

    Go Raziel!

  9. #9
    Does Raziel really 'sacrifice' himself? Isn't Raziel stuck/doomed, pretty much, no matter what he does? He can't be fixed or reverted to a normal being or a vampire, or return to anything like his former existence and we know what will eventually happen to him in the spirit world - and he cannot kill or escape EG by himself. Helping Kain was the only really useful thing he could do, whether he really trusted Kain or not at that point, right? Else all he can to is twiddle his claws in the Underworld, or the material one.

    He called the EG an enemy - and we don't know if Nosgoth will completely die if EG dies too. EG is probably lying, but if he isn't, then it seems Raz would rather help Kain to get back at his 'benefactor', and he's not really in it for the "greater good" at all...? It's a pretty big risk to take if you're trying to 'save the world', but aren't really sure of the best way to go about it... to kill the thing that claims it is supporting all life? But I guess things were said in the SR series that allude to this being moot...

    ...Personally I think his trusting/helping of Kain was more to do with his relationship to Kain than desiring to 'save the world', but that's just my vagary. It's probably both.

    But... because of the strong moral relativism in the games, and the temptation to consider Raziel as "out for himself and his own", after being thrown in the lake, it's easy to forget he is something of a faithful servant by habit, or was, whether human or vampire. I think when you get to Defiance, he's finally having a bit of a hissy about being manipulated and used and is behaving like someone who doesn't give much of a damn any more - but like he says himself "old habits die hard". I'd guess the measure of his 'hatred' for Kain is equal to the respect and stature he was given as Kain's favourite 'son', i.e. he really does care a lot about what happened, and his pride, and once he knows Kain didn't 'value him little' at all, then everything changes, as he was mistaken. Pride is definitely one of Raziel's most defining/obstinate characteristics, as is his enthusiasm for 'integrity', but not usually to the point of total stupidity. I think if you switch the word 'trust' with 'integrity' and ask whether Raziel was convinced of Kain's integrity by the end - I think he was, and that was why he made himself useful to him. He wasn't really of any further use himself in any other way, by his own standards. To my thinking helping Kain then represents a total reversion back to the role he was happier to play - that of the 'right hand' of the master (or father) he respected, pretty much right after that respect was won back due to the various revelations in the story.

    That's one of the things that's interesting about Raziel - he displays 'chaotic neutral' and selfish personality traits, a vicious pride, but also some 'lawful good' traits (however deluded they might be at different points in the story). Sometimes he's so gullible it's nuts, and other times he trusts nobody and nothing. I guess ultimately he wants to do the 'right thing', and woe betide anyone who gets in the way of it - the problem is the 'right thing' is such a matter of confusion and complexity for him in SR and LoK. Kain is the one with which he has the most powerful connection and interactions with in the games (besides his former self?) though, so it stands to reason he pays particular attention to Kain whether he trusts him or not - they've known each other for approx. 1000 years, and I think it's made clear enough by Raz's talking that he knew Kain was cunning and formidable, and certainly no angel, but the relationship between them appears to be quite complicated.

    The whole thing reminds me of a parent-child spat in some ways, when the kid gets old enough to start some serious backtalk when they don't agree with the parent, and in other ways its a clash of wills and ideals and personalities. I get the impression though - that trust wasn't the most abundant thing in Kain's empire, that the relationship between Raziel and his brothers was tenuous, not affectionate, and the relationship between Raziel and Kain wasn't some nice, straightforward parent-child king-servant thing with lots of love and trust, either. Respect, definitely, as Strands of Night said was there, and I figure he trusted Kain more than his brothers, and Kain probably treated him better as the 'favourite' too. All the more painful when you get shoved off a cliff for 500 years of relentless agony.

    Hmm, I've felt 'betrayed' and fallen out with a parent before, and the more you respect and trust them, the more 'painful' it is when it happens and the more anger you can find when you feel 'wronged'. So... yea. I suppose Raz's obssession with finding Kain must have come from some large measure of something - adoration, respect, trust, love, expectation, entitlement etc. being wounded... I just wonder which it was the most of.

    As for Raziel always seeming to find the time to listen to Kain - except at that one point when he really should've and didn't - I think it's because Raz knows full well Kain is wiser than he is, and knows a lot more than he lets on... and that usually wins over his desire for instant retribution because he's curious by nature. Kain wisely doesn't tell him that much straight out, either... probably because Raz has a little temper on him and would probably not agree or understand if everything were laid out all at once. :P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy View Post
    Does Raziel really 'sacrifice' himself? Isn't Raziel stuck/doomed, pretty much, no matter what he does? He can't be fixed or reverted to a normal being or a vampire, or return to anything like his former existence and we know what will eventually happen to him in the spirit world - and he cannot kill or escape EG by himself. Helping Kain was the only really useful thing he could do, whether he really trusted Kain or not at that point, right? Else all he can to is twiddle his claws in the Underworld, or the material one.
    A bit off topic here...

    Even though he has the ability to write his own destiny, I love how Raziel embraces the fate he abhors. I love how the story plays out: At the end of SR2 Raziel says,
    And there, waiting for me as always, was the Reaver... the wraith blade – my own soul, twinned and bound eternally to me.
    And I realized that I could never escape my terrible destiny...
    I had merely postponed it.
    But through Defiance you let yourself believe that he can overcome that... He has free will after all. And I know I was so suprised when he impaled himself willingly on the reaver! He was free to choose any fate he wanted, but there was the wraith blade, always telling me that the choice was already made. Why was I so suprised?

    Thats why I love this series so much!

  11. #11
    I love how it leaves so much open to speculation due to the detail put into the scenario/characters and general cleverness of the storytelling... even though the entire theme is basically about predestination.

    But I think more than that I love thinking about the idea of predeterminism vs free will, or whether any of us have free will at all (a few books on Quantum Theory later and I'm not quite so sure, although like Raziel I'm impudently adamant *I've* still got it xD...); and Kain and Raziel are both very well fleshed-out characters to explore it with.

    Regarding Raziel's sacrifice - I love the ambiguity of his character (and Kain's!) and his struggle to remain prideful when just about all evidence points to the idea he shouldn't be, and what he believed in was never 'right', but the fact he chooses to make himself useful rather than just defy everyone for the sake of it makes him, I think, 'good' beyond doubt in the end, even though 'good' is such a rare commodity in Nosgoth. He could have chosen not to be helpful to anyone, but that's what he is and always has been, a 'knight' character, - someone who serves someone/something greater and swears fealty to it. He's very, very flawed, as well. And who doesn't like a flawed 'hero'?

    There are points when I don't envy his position though - with just about everyone around him possibly telling him a pack of lies, or not enough, and he stubbornly seeks the truth instead. At first, I figured he had all the time in the world to find out - and he was deathless, hence perhaps how trusting and following he apparently is at times, because it doesn't matter too much to him... he WILL find out eventually if someone is false, but that sort of changes later when we learn that he may go insane, and he doesn't have 'all the time' ever, (and the thought drives him close to panic). Perhaps that had some bearing on his behaviour and choice in the end - either way he was eventually going to 'lose himself', and Kain has proven his integrity by then. You do get the feeling Raziel is growing desperate and restless in Defiance compared to how he is in the previous games - like he's losing patience fast; the threat of losing his mind and his freedom really starts to tell on him then?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KainFanatic192 View Post
    I again watched the story cutscenes on Youtube for Soul Reaver 2 and I got the feeling that, despite what Kain did to him in the original game, Raziel seems more persuaded by what Kain says than anyone else he has come across, including Janos. Does Raziel believe in everything that Kain says or does he trust him to a point? I recall hearing about Kain's one true trait is that he cannot lie and that he tells the truth everytime he speaks, although I am not sure if that's official or not, but mere speculation on my part. Don't get me wrong though; Raziel has said, a couple of times, that he wouldn't allow Kain to use him as a pawn for his "messianc delusions", something that I didn't hear Kain admit that he had throughout the entire series, but I got the impression that Raziel trusts him more than anyone else that he encountered throughout his journey.

    Any thoughts?
    Well, he did spend couple of hundreds years with him. However, metaphorically, Raziel was and always will be the right hand of Kain. That was the whole purpose of Raziel in the series.
    As for Kain, no, he was clearly mistaken on several occasions... May I ask where did you hear that Kain can't lie?!
    Basically, I never saw Kain being able to lie, he was always giving his oppinion regarding the matter on several occasions, and couple of times he stated facts. But he never was lying as far as I can recall... He tricked some of people during the BO and BO2 era. But it was part of his personality and some sort of sarcastic, sadistic and overly arrogant behavior.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    Well, he did spend couple of hundreds years with him. However, metaphorically, Raziel was and always will be the right hand of Kain. That was the whole purpose of Raziel in the series.
    As for Kain, no, he was clearly mistaken on several occasions... May I ask where did you hear that Kain can't lie?!
    Basically, I never saw Kain being able to lie, he was always giving his oppinion regarding the matter on several occasions, and couple of times he stated facts. But he never was lying as far as I can recall... He tricked some of people during the BO and BO2 era. But it was part of his personality and some sort of sarcastic, sadistic and overly arrogant behavior.
    I didn't say can't, I said "cannot lie", which means that he speaks the truth all the time. However, Strands Of Night corrected me on this (thank you, by the way!). I believe I read the information on Giant Bomb or some site regarding Kain and his trait in regards of telling the truth. Raziel believes him a lot more than any other creature or person he came across, IMO.

  14. #14
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    Excuse me (and sorry for the slight offtopic), what's the difference between "can't lie" and "cannot lie". I'm not a native English speaker, but I hear this for the first time.

    Thank you for the info

  15. #15
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    Kain: This Empire has outlasted its usefulness...as have you
    That's a direct lie, from SR1.
    Kai prefers not to lie becasue he was manipulated so much in his youth and knows how it feels, but he's not incapable of it.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  16. #16
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    You all probably heard the "Kain never lies" observation from Ardeth's page about Sebastian, which says "Kain rarely (if ever) lies in the whole Legacy of Kain series". I think a more definitve assertion about him never ever lying was written by someone on one of the bigger wiki pages for the series before Baziel and I started to actively maintain them all.

    We changed whatever it used to say to the following: "except when working covertly in Blood Omen 2, Kain has never consciously lied to another individual throughout the Legacy of Kain series, only telling half or partial truths when necessary". Unless we seriously entertain stuff like "I serve no-one" or all of his ambiguously-worded trolling of Raziel in SR1 as mendacity, I think that's accurate.

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