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Thread: Why was Vorador turned into a vampire?

  1. #1

    Why was Vorador turned into a vampire?

    Why were humans turned into Vampires? To guard the pillars and preserve the vampire race, right?

    The greatest curse on the Ancient's was immortality. The inability to return to the wheel of fate. So why subject others to it?

    If the Hylden are such a terrible enemy, then I see the Ancient's desire to make sure the pillars had vampire guardians. But this offers only 9 souls to the damnation of immortaliy. (Or a few extra here or there when a guardian dies. But not one every 60 years as it would be with humans.)

    But why would a race that views it's existance as damned and ultimately not worth living try to peserve it's bloodline by damning more than the absolute minimum?

    So...

    Why turn Voador into a vampire?

    Raziel speculates in Defiance that Vorador was the first to be turned. Does this mean Vorador was a guinea pig, the first successful attempt at vampirism? Is he the only vampire, other than guardians, to be turned by the Ancients?

  2. #2
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    The main reason is they didn't want to let the enemy win. They weren't being born anymore, so that means they weren't be born as pillar guardians (humans were), so they had to fight to keep from losing control of the pillars which is what was keeping the hylden locked out. They were in a sick twisted battle with the Unspoken hylden to be the last ones standing. So if they let their disgust over the curse stop them from turning humans, then the hylden win, and that couldn't be allowed.

    Vorador was first to be turned, if you trust Raziel to interpret a vague painting properly. But he wasn't a pillar guardian. So...... perhaps he was a guinea. Or they took him for some valuable skill he brought to their camp. (Frequently, he's assumed to be a Serioli swordmaker, supposedly the best Nosgoth had to offer.) After Vorador, who knows how many vampire pillar guardians died and had to be replaced. The game kept it simple and showed only one set of guardian spectres, but it did refer to them as the "original vampire guardians", so we know that some of these guys were the ones who got replaced by turned humans. How many turned humans, though? If they were a fighting circle who took on all challengers they could have been getting killed and replaced semi-regularly. So the total number of turned humans can conceivably be somewhat high. Especially if they started turning people not only to be guardians but also to keep their overall population numbers from dipping too low. I know that only the turning of guardians is discussed in-game, but it makes sense for the turning of humans to be a more widespread practice, because that's what would make all humans angry enough to support the revolt that Moebius and Mortaneus launched.

    Just to clarify, human guardians wouldn't have to be replaced every 60 years. Pillar guardianship seems to make you immortal no matter what. Moebius is human and lived for at least several hundred years as Time. So even before the ancient vampires were cursed with immortality, they'd have had 9 immortals among them. (Which is a strange inconsistency, considering their god is so dead-set against immortals. Perhaps the game makers failed to recognize this? Maybe the Squid is willing to compromise so long as the number of immortals goes no higher than the circle of 9, mostly because those 9 were a meal ticket for the parasite god? Also, look at the ultimate result. The guardians are gone but the god remains and does not appear to mourn them as he's busy draining the pillars dry.)

  3. #3
    That does shed some light on things for me. I never thought about the Hylden trying to break the binding... But doesnt that come down to the guardians as well? Now I'm talking myself in circles.

    Maybe humans that werent guardian could volunteer to be turned? If I truly felt cursed, I don't think I could choose to bestow such a burden on someone else. I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else. But maybe the Ancients are really the tyrants we see under Avernus. Or maybe humans volunteered.

    As far as immortal guardians, I was under the assumption that only then time and death guardians were immortal. Time because it would make them "timeless." And Death would be at least able to hold off natural death. Is there any evidence the others were as well? Perhaps States could use alchemy to keep himself young?

    Is there any way Vorador, acting alone could have turned all humans except guardians? He seems to have the capability judging by BO2. And perhaps this is why the Ancients turned him, because he would do what they all could not?

    I'm full of hot air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    I'm full of hot air
    and yet your question made me lock up. there's little or no evidence that all guardians are immortal as a rule, unless it's in the interviews. So check the wiki. ...Malek is immortal too, but he got specially damned to always protect the others. So it's unclear if his punishment changed him into an immortal or if he was always an immortal and his punishment merely removed the distractions of the flesh. My thinking on this one was that the 8 lesser pillars stand there looking like equals, with Balance set apart as their boss. So it seemed to me that they'd all share equally in being immortal or not. Or else it wouldn't be a Circle so much, but more like Moe & Mort sitting at the head of the table as junior circle members came and went.

    But doesnt that come down to the guardians as well?
    The binding decays under human control says Janos because humans are incompetent to serve. So if vampires want the job done right, they're forced to do it themselves, by turning the humans into... them.

    could Vorador acting alone have turned all [the blood curse vampires we see] except for the guardians?...maybe the Ancients are really the tyrants we see under Avernus.
    it was an era of doing what had to be done to not lose ground. they didn't feel good about themselves, from the signs we've seen of their decline. Somehow they built up that large population of wingless (turned) blood curse vampires we keep seeing killed on those long stakes planted in the ground like in SR2. Once you turn some humans, you may have let the genie out of the bottle and it spreads on its own like the flu.

  5. #5
    The binding decays under human control says Janos because humans are incompetent to serve. So if vampires want the job done right, they're forced to do it themselves, by turning the humans into... them.
    But that was my point. If the only vampires absolutely NEEDED to stop the decay of the binding are the guardians why create any more than that? Maybe the ancients gazed through time to see that humans would control the pillars, and came up with a Plan B. Although I fail to see the logic behind that.

    Perhaps they foresaw the coming of Kain, and assumed he would be given the blood curse after his birth as balance guardian, and they turned other humans to facilitate this. Never knowing he was vampirised (making up words?) by necromantic means.

    And as a half-formed argument against guardian immortality: Why would the Nature guardian possibly be immortal? Every living thing dies as part of nature. Bane is neither dirt or stone, and so, embodying the aspects of nature, he must surely die.

    Death and Time can't call down a tornado or destroy the land with a tsunami. But immortality is part of their aspects.

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    Dude I don't know. You may be right about the guardians. Or it could be one of those things that unfortunately was left vague. The Hylden or someone who remembers all this stuff might fly in and Judge Judy it for us. Nosgothic Realm folks were always real sure of stuff like this, but I can't remember how they answered this or why.

    If Bane really wanted to go all the way with it, he'd be Nature for 9 months and then die when Winter came. You'd have a new Nature guard every year, or a guy who went into a coma during snow season and then was reborn in the spring. But what I'd rather imagine is that the underlying forces of Nature never die because they're what keeps the seasons turning forever. Just like they'd keep their guardian going forever. These circle people are all attaching themselves to higher powers that'd sustain them. Or I'd at least try and negotiate that as one of the perks if I was a guardian, you know.

    I also see what you're saying though about only Moe & Mort's pillars having immortality as part of their definition. They've each got good solid reasons to expect to outlive their natural lifespan. If this was American Idol, those two would be safe from elimination and the other 7 contestants would be worried they might not be immortal.

  7. #7
    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    The Hylden or someone who remembers all this stuff might fly in and Judge Judy it for us.
    Think I might have mentioned this before, but it's not necessarily about remembering - it's about researching - to look it up over making it up.

    For this particular example a short search led me in a circle and the question being posted here some time before (and apparently the initial answer not being 'upgraded' from the old days of the forum, so the direct answers may no longer be around), anyway, the bottom of this thread (from about Anubis' post) gives a summary of what happened... Basically, 'Word of God' (from Amy herself) says guardians have an 'Extreme Longevity' - they age so slowly, they might as well be immortal.
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    I remember seeing the quote/thread, but not where I saw it. I was looking for it a week, or so, ago to answer the question in another thread. I think this thread you've found, Bazlielim, is enough evidence for it right now. And it wouldn't make sense that the Time and Death guardians are living longer than the rest, frankly. Humans are already not worthy to serve, per Janos' decree, but if two of them ruled basically forever (barring an unnatural demise), they'd have almost unlimited power to manipulate and coerce the rest.

    I think you're thinking too literal also, Strands, when thinking the Nature Guardian should die because all in nature dies. However, nature, itself, continues to perpetuate, but that's neither here, nor there. These are Guardians of the forces in Nosgoth. A Guardian that is bound by those forces isn't much of a Guardian, ultimately. They're supposed to control their respective aligned force, not be controlled by it. That would actually be like saying the Death Guardian should simply be dead by default, if you think about it like that, heh.

    Janos calls the passing of the curse a necessary evil. Vorador was the first he tried it on, that any of the Ancients tried it on .. according to (love this, Squid ) Raziel's interpretations of a vague mural, yes. Janos is his sire, so Janos was the first to figure out how to sire, by this. Why Vorador was chosen is as simple as this: he was to be the maker of the Reaver, which the Ancients prophesied was their champions' weapon, and they did also prophesise Kain and the Scion of Balance, so they knew that one day he would come. He certainly wasn't going to be born of their loins, as that well had run dry, so the curse has to be passed on. Vorador needs to make the blade, watch over things with his master (the rest of the Ancients by this point are probably offing themselves), and as Janos says (and Kain says in the same vein also in SR1), as long as one of [them] stands, there is still hope (Kain: We are Legion). Their strength in waiting for the prophecy to come about is their ability to continue their bloodline until the time when the binding falls into peril, and when their Champion and the Scion will be called.

  10. #10
    Thanks Bazeliem, I'll try to be less lazy next time.

    It must be extremely long indeed for Moebius and Mortanius to have lived from the time of the ancients.
    Moebius does look like time has been wearing on him though. (Ha-ha! I should do some standup with material like this, right....right? Ok, no then.)

    Thank you also Hylden, I again managed to post a reply while you were doing the same

    I figured I was being a bit literal with the guardian thing, but it didn't make sense to me for immortality. That's all I came up with to argue it lol. (Or maybe I'm just too literal, your description of why Ancients cannot give birth naturally made me lol and say "oh, no he didn't!)

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    Thanks for finding that Anubis post, Baz. I also had a memory of it and had been searching around in vain. It's a perfect source to prove Guardian agelessness. One thing I find interesting about it though, reading over it, is the info that the ancient vampire Guardians we meet in Defiance were chosen from birth -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis_Orr
    As for the other Ancient Guardians, they were chosen from birth, thus be the only set of Ancient Guardians (almost immediately after the Pillars were forged the Ancients were cursed) so they were around so long that EVERY TRACE of them and their race was wiped out, plus I think we may find that there may have been some foul play there, they may not all have had a structure like Janos or may have wandered from their keep and met an end.
    I realise it's coming from the year before Defiance was released, but does anyone know if this fact was also based on Amy's words? It's subtle, but it changes a lot of my assumptions about those earlier Guardians if it's true.

    We can infer from the order of the murals in Defiance that events unfolded like this: first the Hylden defeat, THEN the raising of the Pillars, THEN the summoning of the first Guardians, THEN the blood curse and the mass suicides, THEN the turning of Vorador and other humans, THEN the turning of human Circle members, THEN the rebellion.

    Based on a variety of sources, I've always assumed the following account:

    The first nine Guardians were adult vampires at the time of their summoning (Raziel narrates that they were "appointed" to serve the Circle) who devoutly worshipped the Wheel. For a small window of time, the Time Guardian most likely assisted in formulating some of the prophecies we see everywhere in the Citadel. However, the Hylden somehow afflicted the vampires with the blood curse just as they were being banished, or very shortly after being banished. The Guardians were driven nuts by the disconnect from their god, and soon took their own lives along with many vampires, one by one. They were immediately succeeded by humans. Janos witnessed all of this, and was sad that the Guardians weren't "sustained" by their obligation to the Pillars. He helped to ensure that the human successors were turned into vampires, until eventually the humans said enough is enough. The dead Guardians were interred in the Citadel, and their spectres were later consumed by Raziel.


    If what Anubis says is right, then I have to revise my understanding to something like this:

    The first nine Guardians were baby vampires born at the moment when the Pillars were raised, just as the Hylden were being banished. Either these baby Guardians bore the blood curse from youth, and aged to adulthood nevertheless, or there was a substantial time gap between the raising of the Pillars and the Hylden blood curse. These Guardians were indoctrinated into worshipping the Wheel at a very young age. The baby Guardians aged to adulthood, and the Time Guardian most likely assisted in formulating some of the prophecies we see everywhere in the Citadel, but for whatever reason they all ended up dying or committing suicide, nevertheless. They were immediately succeeded by humans. Janos helped to ensure that the human successors were turned into vampires, until eventually the humans said enough is enough. The dead Guardians were interred in the Citadel, and their spectres were later consumed by Raziel.


    On one hand, it makes sense to think that the ancient Guardians were born into their roles like everybody else. On the other hand, that idea raises questions as to exactly how long it was before the Hylden retaliated with their blood curse.

    If it was indeed very soon after the Pillars were raised, I am left to wonder why the dead Guardians in Defiance are so forlorn over losing the Elder God if they probably never even heard its voice to begin with. This would also imply that babies can still age to adulthood even if hit with the blood curse. That isn't an inconsistency, but it's not something I would have taken for granted, either.

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    Interesting.

    This part, "plus I think we may find that there may have been some foul play there, they may not all have had a structure like Janos or may have wandered from their keep and met an end." we found out, as much as can be inferred. The other Guardians most likely all committed suicide willingly for the cause, which apparently was to wait until their souls were used to activate the Spirit Chambers.


    Regarding your mention of the "Hylden defeat," do you mean their defeat of the Ancients here? I took it that the Ancients were definitely on the loosing side of the war when they raised the Pillars to banish the Hylden as a last resort.

    Regarding the time interval of things, Janos states in Defiance, "The Hylden cursed us as they fell, afflicting our race with a predatory blood-thirst." The murals also depict this. Both in SR2 and in Defiance the murals both depict the Hylden still in Nosgoth, their sorcerers on top of a high cliff as they fire off their curse on the Ancients. The mural in SR2 suggests this part, but the one in Defiance confirms it, that the portal to the Demon Dimension is behind the Hylden as they're doing this, so this is their final act as the last of them are sucked in.

    Now, I know you know all of this, but I'm just pointing it out.

    Here's a thought: perhaps the creators of the Pillars, those sorcerers we see raising them, did so with the intent that there are nine pregnant of their women left in their dwindling numbers from the age-long war, and the timing was perfect for them to use this in a final ultimate plan. Perhaps, even, the births were planned that far ahead of time that these kids would be conceived at the same time and so the Pillars would have to choose these as Guardians and their births were all to be on that same day.

    This is a lot to speculate about, but the Ancients knew the inner workings of this creation that they were making, so then they would know already that it would take Guardians to govern them and that they would have to be chosen at birth. It was their failsafe that the Guardians would be pure and uncorrupted, perhaps. In this, they would need to include in their plans then who among them would have the honor of birthing these children on that day and let their mates know that it was to be their duty to impregnate for this day. While any successor Guardians would have to be chosen by the Pillars solely, at least the very first of them the ones planning to build/raise these things had a say in who would be called under this speculation.

    Considering that there really is nothing else to go on at all, I'm just postulating greatly here. Also, it's not possible for us humans to know the exact dates of our pregnancies yet, but for the Ancients, perhaps this is so somehow...


    Edit: And before I get further into speculation/debate mode, I'd sure like to find the actual quotes on these points from Amy Hennig. While I remember her addressing the Pillars granting the Guardians longevity, I absolutely have no recollection of this point. That's not to say it's wrong, but I'd just like to find the quote first and see its context and actual wording... I'm sure it would have been debated to death by now, were it to have been prevalent out there.

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    Baz I want you to know that your wikipedia is penetrating into our lives. I did check it when searching for that last answer. So I'll thank you for providing that answer even though you then made yourself a difficult person to thank by saying I was making stuff up when really (in this topic, anyway) I had been reasoning things through using the in-game facts available to us and making it known that I wasn't aware of any relevant answer from the interviews in case someone wanted to swoop in with additional info. The ideal human should probably be one capable of both research and reason. Hopefully, the dream of completing the wiki isn't to render all reasoning obsolete. Because then there really would be nothing to talk about.


    For this new question of whether the first guardians were chosen at birth or as adults, I'm recalling the art in the SR2 central pillar chamber. It shows grown up ancients as pillar guardians using their powers to cast the hylden down, into the netherworld I assume. The pillars had full grown capable guardians at the moment when the hylden were banished. So either the pillars were new at that moment (and the guardians were old when chosen), or a good amount of time elapsed between the raising of the pillars and the banishing of the hylden (with the first guardians being chosen at birth, potentially).

    So I'd arrange things in the order of: 1) War, 2) which either side could have been winning really as things led to 3) the raising of the pillars which turned events in the ancients' favor for sure. They went nuclear on the hylden and deported them, either right away or after a honeymoon period when they were just happy to enjoy the normal everyday advantages of having guardian powers until war fatigue tempted them to seek an extreme solution. Then 4) the hylden had time to react which means the deportation was gradual. The lid wasn't sealed tightly on them right away. Either they were able to sneak back into the world to curse the ancients (a mural shows them doing this in person), or they weren't entirely gone yet because something like regional banishment sweeps were being performed by the ancients similar to how you have to keep calling the Pest Control van back every two months for a while before the bug problem is really under control. 5) When many hylden were already in the banishment zone they saw what it was doing to them and said "Let's visit this kind of nightmare on the ancients in return so that they don't get away with this crime against our species unpunished." So they had time to concoct the curse, probably using the new yucky grime of the banishment as the key ingredient in their sorcery, which explains why the curse appeared so late in the war, only after hylden exposure to the hellzone, and it explains why similarly nasty curses came to afflict both species at around the same time, turning them both into shadows of their former glory, which would otherwise be unlikely.

    Also, Defiance makes the case for the first guardians being adults who negotiated with the universe for their powers. The guardian specters are bitter about how it turned out for them but they take responsibility for making their own decisions (the one who mentions atonement, for example, is atoning for something he/she did knowingly as an adult. The banishment wasn't done by others when the guardians were infants. They were adults when they made the big decisions and they voice adult regrets: the one who talks about losing what truly mattered while trying to win all.)

    Also, just for it all to make sense, at the beginning of the era of the pillars someone had to be there to bargain for these powers of sorcery and accept the responsibility for them. The planet isn't going to just start the process off by bestowing powers on people at random without the whole process first being "turned on" and the rules negotiated by someone very capable of handling that kind of juice. By sorcerers. i.e. the first circle members. They, as adults, convinced the Powers that Be to bestow Guardianship upon them. Infants couldn't have initially brokered that deal, and who else would that leave on site? The mere architects or stone masons who'd built the structure? It'd take grown sorcerers to call down those powers. And it's very unlikely that a second group of adult sorcerors activated the pillars only to say "Let's pass up this great opportunity for ourselves and have the power instead go to a bunch of babies." So I'm picturing people of some power standing at the base of each pillar as part of the initial activation ceremony. They established the right for mortals to serve the planet in this way, and once it was established it belonged to us in perpetuity, so when the first guardians proved to not be eternal they "failed" and the powers didn't cease but passed on to another soul. Why another just being born? That was a tip of their cap to the religion of the day, the Wheel of Life and Death and Rebirth. So as one of them died, the best way to do the universe's will was to replace death with a birth. (I usually think of them "failing" not due to suicides but due to Elder's unseen pressures on them and on the pillars themselves, The Hylden. Remember, these were the strongest specimens of their species, who'd already long endured. I don't have them pegged as suicides, but that's not ours to know for sure.)

    But Amy was saying something by having Raziel ignore the more recent guardians and only collect the souls of the original guardians. Why? Because they were the guardians of record, more important than the replacement guardians. They were the ones who held the keys to this operation. They'd actually earned their place at the pillars and set in motion the power that had only bounced into the more recent guardians as an inheritance at birth. So if you want to redirect the pillars and change gears to point history in a new direction, like Raziel does, these original spectres are the ones you've got to get to sign off on the idea. And since their minds are warped from being longtime ghosts, you've got to slap 'em around in combat and then sign for them. I guess all their souls are like ink that's now been loaded into Kain's pen, so that when the scion uses the reaver to fix the pillars, his signature will have legally binding power over the universe, like these original guardians had.

    Or whatever someone finds through reasearch.

  14. #14
    This is as much of a shot in the dark as anything. Now I don't know (and I haven't researched it, being mostly irrelevant) but was it the Ancients as the entire race who raised the pillars, or was it a smaller group of Ancients who acted with or without the consent of the race as a whole?

    *edit: as Squid already poked at (that'll teach me to start a post on my mobile and finish it hours later without refreshing)* Either way, could the initial guardians have been appointed, or selected at the time of the binding "ritual" to be the first guardians (as already mature and capable adults)? And the 'chosen from birth' aspect that we know come after their deaths?

    Something else that just jumped in my head... About the death and immediate selection of a new guardian; could this be the pillars not selecting (even if by fate) a new guardian, but using the ancients knowledge of the "Wheel of Fate" to re-select the reincarnation of the same guardian?

    I see this already looks like a no, because Raziel fights and reaves the souls of the original guardians in Defiance, meaning they were never returned to the wheel and reincarnated. But it was a cool thought, so I won't delete it.

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    Squid, I think you're confusing the raising of the Pillars and the calling of the Guardians for them. These SR2 murals:



    ...Raziel explained as the raising of the Pillars, so these Ancients you see there turning them on and using them to banish the Hylden are their creators, not the Guardians called by the Pillars to guard them afterward. In fact, Daniel Cabuco's larger full version of this mural is called "Creating the Pillars." You see in the mural that the Pillars are not fully formed, but are being formed out of pure energy that are from the sorcerers' spell casting there.

    This mural later in Defiance:



    Is labeled by Raziel and is its very name, the Summoning of the Guardians. So, the ones that banished the Hylden seem to be the very ones that raised the Pillars to begin with, not the Guardians called to protect the binding afterward.

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    Awesome. That first one is what I was referring to. It's a new puzzle piece to know that Creation is the pic's name, and not just "The Pillars in Use." (I've noticed before that the pillars were incomplete there in the pic, and that may be where I first got the impression that the broken pillars of today could be rebuilt from energy in a day).

    Is it possible we're looking at two photos of the same group of ancients? (Ancients called by the pillar principles to raise or create the pillars and then stay on as the guardians.) Because shouldn't the creators be like, you know, pillar experts (i.e. guardians) ? Or else how the heck did they just up and bust out with that raising from out of nowhere.

    Here's the Raziel quote for the second pic, called Mural: The Summoning of the Guardians---- "This scene depicted the appointment of the original Vampire guardians. Each summoned to serve when the Pillars were raised. Each Guardian is aligned to the principal of the Pillar he serves, and the Balance Guardian is the axis of them all."

    ^ If "when" really means "after", then yeah there'd have to be two groups, the creators followed by the guardians. That'd mean there was a new bunch of pillar-creating jabronis I'd never factored in before, a mysterious bunch we've never heard a peep about before or since. If, however, there's a way to make "when" mean "at the same time", then that works out better for my theory. It would mean simply that both things arose at the same time, the pillars and the guardians. Which clears the way for the same group of ancients to both create and guard them. They'd be the same Defiance specters we've already met. Which seems preferable. Don't we want Raziel to have tracked down the pillars' creators already in Defiance? That way, Kain is that much closer to being able to re-create the pillars using energies we've already collected! If the guardian spectres we killed weren't the creators but were only some renters we got into a slapfight with, that's less of a prize.

    Edit: Okay, post-basketball findings:

    the quote from Raz about that painting when he first enters the SR2 chamber:
    "...the Pillars, raised by this winged race, who thus defeated their adversaries... "
    http://www.nosgoth.net/sr2/dialogue/...ml#TheElderGod

    The quote by itself could have meant anything, such as "They ultimately won using the pillars...... 500 years after building the structure." But after you add the painting and the quote together, that makes it look like everything happened in the same instant, doesn't it. Pillars up, hylden down. Bam. End of story. Case closed. So I started looking for why this very obvious thing could have escaped my attention. Answer: the mural was unreliable information, which we were getting a lot of in that game as Raziel kept changing his take on things each time he argued with Elder. It still may not be the literal truth of how things went. Ordinarily, when Elder calls the paintings "Lies," you'd expect this to be code for "They're the truth! Elder said they were lying so they've gotta be true!" And at first I agreed with that. But look at the other paintings on that link. Has that stuff happened yet? Like the soul reaver being taken back into ancient times to be wielded by a winged blue champion (the pic of it glowing gold instead of red which would likely be the blood reaver.) So that doesn't look accurate. And I've also got problems with the "blood reaver vs. hylden" mural, which seems historically impossible. If the birth of the pillars instantly banished the hylden they'd already be long gone before the reaver was later made as the key to the pillars. So great, it looks like I'll be looking up old threads about those murals now thanks to this new research phase in my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    Baz I want you to know that your wikipedia is penetrating into our lives. I did check it when searching for that last answer. So I'll thank you for providing that answer even though you then made yourself a difficult person to thank by saying I was making stuff up when really (in this topic, anyway) I had been reasoning things through using the in-game facts available to us and making it known that I wasn't aware of any relevant answer from the interviews in case someone wanted to swoop in with additional info. The ideal human should probably be one capable of both research and reason. Hopefully, the dream of completing the wiki isn't to render all reasoning obsolete. Because then there really would be nothing to talk about.
    Tell me about it! every time I try to google anything, my own website pops up on the lists !(though it's a wiki, so it's not actually mine per se, but a gestalt of whoever contributes).
    Look, Take it as banter if you will, becasue I don't think we're gonna agree on this - to clarify, my thoughts are that reasoning is fine, but as anyone with any sort of info-processing background will tell you, you research first then reason based off that research.
    Every time anyone asks a question you'll notice some of us (and not just me by a long-shot) go straight for manuals, Prima Guides, Interviews and quote them - this is the word of god and the very bottom line of the issues - from there you can reason about unclear areas, but you don't reason without doing any research (I would definitely have failed my dissertation if I did!), because you open yourself to missing the facts.
    Not a personal thing, Squid, but I'm sure there are a few of us that have educational background/formal training in info-handling and processing and know you shouldn't really start with a random idea and try to support it - that's poor skills
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  18. #18
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    Let's try and refrain from debating each others' personal ways of debating, please. That's a path down a dark road, where Hylden gets out his fiery sword and the next thing you know, charred monkey meat chunks are found everywhere

    Seriously, though, keep it civil, people ... and on topic.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    That's a path down a dark road, where Hylden gets out his fiery sword and the next thing you know, charred monkey meat chunks are found everywhere
    Always wondered where the Fire Sword from BO1 disappeared to.... The Hylden Stole It!

  20. #20
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    Here's a wacky wild topic that touched on these same issues about pillar creation. It seems the mysteries of Nosgoth are eternal (or at least several years old).

    http://forums.eidosgames.com/archive...p/t-53957.html


    No need to worry about us, by the way, H. It was constructive.


    * Edit Add: *

    Ever wondered why 5 creators for 9 pillars?
    A) the pic would have looked too crowded with 9 ancients, so they just went with 5 to use the available space better.
    OR
    B) 5 Creators = Balance + 4 Elemental Principles (Accounting for 2 pillars each!!!!!!)

    The creators could have been using the same arrangement we're familiar with from Defiance:
    Nature & Conflict = Fire
    Mind & Dimension = Air
    Death & States = Water
    Time & Energy = Earth

    Balance = Balance

    ^ (With The first two elements (4 pillars) being aligned with light, and the next two elements (4 pillars) falling under the influence of darkness.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    Edit: And before I get further into speculation/debate mode, I'd sure like to find the actual quotes on these points from Amy Hennig. While I remember her addressing the Pillars granting the Guardians longevity, I absolutely have no recollection of this point. That's not to say it's wrong, but I'd just like to find the quote first and see its context and actual wording... I'm sure it would have been debated to death by now, were it to have been prevalent out there.
    I personally can't recall an interview where it was said by Amy, but there is a source that states that the Pillars granted longevity:

    Each Guardian is marked from birth, chosen and summoned by the Pillar he is destined to serve for his lifetime. In return, the Guardians are granted longevity and extraordinary powers. The death of a Circle member is inevitably followed by the birth of a successor, whom it is the responsibility of the remaining Guardians to seek out and apprentice into the Circle.

    I think the Ancient Vampire Guardians were an exception and were adults when they began their service of the Pillars. I don't know Anubis_Orr's source, and I can't argue conclusively either way with quotes right now. It's just a gut instinct based on my assumptions. They were the first Circle, so I don't think they necessarily had to be bound by the same rules. I think the Pillars being raised, the banishment of the Hylden and the Hylden's curse happened at pretty much the same time. I believe vampiric immortality would prevent newborn Ancient Guardians growing up into the adults Raziel fought as spectres.
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  22. #22
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    Thanks, Ardeth Nice link there to old times!

    Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the Guardians and how events happened. I'm inclined to stick with thinking of the first Guardians of the Ancients as being adult, also, until such time as anything further is found from this claim.

    It felt a little sketchy trying to fit a preplanned mass conception for the day the Pillars were raised also, lol

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    Here's a wacky wild topic that touched on these same issues about pillar creation. It seems the mysteries of Nosgoth are eternal (or at least several years old).

    http://forums.eidosgames.com/archive...p/t-53957.html


    No need to worry about us, by the way, H. It was constructive.


    * Edit Add: *

    Ever wondered why 5 creators for 9 pillars?
    A) the pic would have looked too crowded with 9 ancients, so they just went with 5 to use the available space better.
    OR
    B) 5 Creators = Balance + 4 Elemental Principles (Accounting for 2 pillars each!!!!!!)

    The creators could have been using the same arrangement we're familiar with from Defiance:
    Nature & Conflict = Fire
    Mind & Dimension = Air
    Death & States = Water
    Time & Energy = Earth

    Balance = Balance

    ^ (With The first two elements (4 pillars) being aligned with light, and the next two elements (4 pillars) falling under the influence of darkness.
    For proper understanding of the pillars there is a need of understanding two different areas of knowledge - First of all, astrology (symbolism) and 2nd of all three different Bible books because it's all connected.

    Raziel, Melchiah, Rahab etc are all names that weren't randomly used. Same goes for the pillars. There's far more to it than meets the eye.

  24. #24
    Haha. Now that you mention the bible it made me think

    Raziel should really have been named Job. Lol

    Yes, nearly all the names (and even the Sarafan) derive their names from the bible or other religious or occult texts.

    Mr.Milky could you point out what 3 books in the bible youre talking about, and what astrology or symbolisim youre talking about. Im fascinated to hear what you have come up with

  25. #25
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    Well, it's not a popular subject among the fans and this is not a topic for it. I'm sure that there's a topic named after astrological symbolism.

    However, I'm still not entirely sure that whole concept was based upon one Biblical text. There're around 2800 different Bible translations and interpretations and I was referring to the Judaism and Kabbalah in it.
    Kabbalah is more of an number religion (higher form of math) and same could be said for astrological symbols, only it's a language.
    That Raziel possesses wings and is portrayed in the opening menu of SR1 in the figure of what we commonly know as "an angel" was no coincidence.
    In some interpretations Raziel is portrayed as "2nd in command".

    Some proper or concise answers to the origin of the names themselves aren't interpreted in the LoK properly, anyway. Some key elements are missing, but it just adds a whole new level of metaphors which are obvious and yet so little is known about them because people are not into religious/astrological/mythical/mystery factors of the series.

    Since I know astrology pretty well I can see the metaphors and symbols of how things work from an astrological point of view. "And thus defy the tyrannous stars"

    ---

    Some other time, pal. Regards.

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