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Thread: can the elder god be killed with the soul reaver?

  1. #1
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    can the elder god be killed with the soul reaver?

    so supposing what the elder god says about raziel essentially being an extra mouth for the elder god is true, and the soul devouring properties in the reaver are from raziel alone, unless there is a minimum amount of soul (so to speak) required before feeding the elder god any damage dealt to him would only cause him to become weaker, all be it at an exponential rate. as such wont kain need a new method to defeat him?

    also considering time seems to run at a different rate in the two realms even after he is killed (if that is possible) it may take some time for him to be removed from the physical realm relative to the time at which kain entered the spectral realm.

    final point, or question as it is, who wants to see kain acquire spectral vampire abilities for himself?

  2. #2
    I doubt whether or not the Elder God can be killed by any means. I guess the answer lies in if he IS the wheel (as EG claims to be), or just the god representing it.

    If Thor is the god of thunder, he can probbly be killed somehow.
    But if Thor IS thunder... then you'd better invest in ear plugs.

    unless there is a minimum amount of soul (so to speak) required before feeding the elder god any damage dealt to him would only cause him to become weaker, all be it at an exponential rate. as such wont kain need a new method to defeat him?
    Im not sure exactly what you mean here. You have to speak slowly, and use little words. But if you are asking if the Soul Reaver would attempt to make a meal out of Mr.Tentacle, I doubt it. As far as we know EG has no soul, at least as we know it. None of his Archon servants have reave-able souls either (so why would EG). Probably not what you meant, but thats what you get.

    also considering time seems to run at a different rate in the two realms even after he is killed (if that is possible) it may take some time for him to be removed from the physical realm relative to the time at which kain entered the spectral realm.
    EG seems to exist in all times, at the same time. What I mean is that EG either is, or isn't. Still pretty vauge, huh? I'll see if I can make it sound less like nonsense with more nonsense...

    To Raziel, time stands still in spectral. But we see at the beginning of Defiance that hundreds (500?) of years pass while Raziel acts emo and cries on a rock in spectral. EG pulled him through time, Raziel doesn't have that capability.

    While this is like time travel to Raziel, to EG it may be that time passes at a rate of his choosing in spectral, or that he can move himself through time instantly even though time is not passing. Ex: A piece of paper has a hole on two opposite corners. The holes cannot move to touch each other but the paper can be folded to make them touch. The holes then are a single hole, in the same time and space (viewed from a spectral vantage), though they exist on opposite ends of the paper, and are seperate holes (from a material vantage).

    This also assumes that EG can move backwards through time. Thus how EG knows who Raziel is, and what he has done when they meet beneath the pillars for the "first" time. You could argue and call it prophecy like Janos knowing him, but I think that EG can see actual events, not just vauge prophecies. He simply can not, or hasn't learned how to alter the material realm personally to any large degree. He has to rely on his pawns to shape the material world.

    Back to my holes in paper... If EG folds time to be at multiple times simultaniously, even though his "spectral time" is immutable, then we get a dense pile of folded paper with a single hole completely through it's center. Say now, Kain comes along with the Reaver and sticks it into the hole, cutting it from the paper. The hole is destroyed. Not just the top layer, because the hole is a single hole, throughout the paper.

    So if Kain were to "kill" EG at any time then EG in all times would instantly, always, and forever be dead, having never been alive. Or worse, cease to exist, and by extension, never have existed.

    I realize this makes a teeny tiny paradox. Maybe evidence that EG simply cannot be destroyed.

    Or maybe it just made more sense with paper and holes.

    I really thought this was going to be a short post saying "maybe."

  3. #3
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    one vote for Kain visiting spectral.
    Make him work really hard for it though, like a mad scientist version of what Raziel could do naturally. Have Kain wear some rigged up gizmo like his 'wraith armor' with electrodes attached to it, then he'd have to call down lightning which would feed into the electrodes, which sends him into spectral but just sort of, the same way ghosts can only sort of manifest in our world. Whatever.

    cause him to become weaker at an exponential rate
    huh? That made me think of how guitar feedback at a rock concert can keep building up in the speakers and getting louder until the amp explodes. That'd be cool if hitting Elder over and over with the sword caused a feedback loop that cooked the god. How could we make that happen? ......(?)........... What if Elder broke off a piece of his own super-soul to remake Raziel and that's why Raziel became a godlike wraith. So every time the soul reaver devours a bit of Elder's essence it's not eating its exact same self (paradox) but more like eating a close cousin (cool feedback loop effect)?

    too confusing. Must stop before head explodes from.....feedback loop.

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    Im not sure exactly what you mean here. You have to speak slowly, and use little words. But if you are asking if the Soul Reaver would attempt to make a meal out of Mr.Tentacle, I doubt it. As far as we know EG has no soul, at least as we know it. None of his Archon servants have reave-able souls either (so why would EG). Probably not what you meant, but thats what you get.
    well , i forgot about the archons, its been a while since i last played defiance. however what if they simply had a different kind of soul? one that raziel has yet to acquire the ability to feed on, kind of like us trying to eat a whole elephant.

    EG seems to exist in all times, at the same time. What I mean is that EG either is, or isn't. Still pretty vauge, huh? I'll see if I can make it sound less like nonsense with more nonsense...

    To Raziel, time stands still in spectral. But we see at the beginning of Defiance that hundreds (500?) of years pass while Raziel acts emo and cries on a rock in spectral. EG pulled him through time, Raziel doesn't have that capability.

    While this is like time travel to Raziel, to EG it may be that time passes at a rate of his choosing in spectral, or that he can move himself through time instantly even though time is not passing. Ex: A piece of paper has a hole on two opposite corners. The holes cannot move to touch each other but the paper can be folded to make them touch. The holes then are a single hole, in the same time and space (viewed from a spectral vantage), though they exist on opposite ends of the paper, and are seperate holes (from a material vantage).

    This also assumes that EG can move backwards through time. Thus how EG knows who Raziel is, and what he has done when they meet beneath the pillars for the "first" time. You could argue and call it prophecy like Janos knowing him, but I think that EG can see actual events, not just vauge prophecies. He simply can not, or hasn't learned how to alter the material realm personally to any large degree. He has to rely on his pawns to shape the material world.

    Back to my holes in paper... If EG folds time to be at multiple times simultaniously, even though his "spectral time" is immutable, then we get a dense pile of folded paper with a single hole completely through it's center. Say now, Kain comes along with the Reaver and sticks it into the hole, cutting it from the paper. The hole is destroyed. Not just the top layer, because the hole is a single hole, throughout the paper.

    So if Kain were to "kill" EG at any time then EG in all times would instantly, always, and forever be dead, having never been alive. Or worse, cease to exist, and by extension, never have existed.

    I realize this makes a teeny tiny paradox. Maybe evidence that EG simply cannot be destroyed.

    Or maybe it just made more sense with paper and holes.
    that possibility did occur to me too, however if he exists at all times how would anything ever happen in the spectral realm? surely if time never actually moved in there than neither would its inhabitants.

    as for the EGs ability to warp time (as you suggested he may posses) and his ability to see the future, he seems to have a presence in the physical realm, particularly at the pillars, suppose he is somehow connected to the pillars, what if he was the source of the pillars powers? and the ancient vampires used him as a resource for the various powers the pillars are embodied with, or possibly more likely, what if the EG was leeching from the pillars powers or had corrupted them to some degree, suppose he was responsible in part for the transition of vampire to human pillar guardians, maybe weakening the existing vampire guardians in order to make them easier to kill. this seems to me to fit quite well into the EGs style of approaching his enemies, weakening the vampires before using the sarafan movement to kill them off. suppose he even manipulated the hylden, causing the war between vampire and hylden in an attempt to kill off as many immortals as possible, a calculated plot of extermination by the EG.

    I really thought this was going to be a short post saying "maybe."
    easily enough done on this game series, no worries, although i did skim over the post a little before i actually replied.

    also why cant i right click on this site?

    one vote for Kain visiting spectral.
    Make him work really hard for it though, like a mad scientist version of what Raziel could do naturally. Have Kain wear some rigged up gizmo like his 'wraith armor' with electrodes attached to it, then he'd have to call down lightning which would feed into the electrodes, which sends him into spectral but just sort of, the same way ghosts can only sort of manifest in our world. Whatever.
    sounds kind of cool, though hopefully not too steampunk.

    huh? That made me think of how guitar feedback at a rock concert can keep building up in the speakers and getting louder until the amp explodes. That'd be cool if hitting Elder over and over with the sword caused a feedback loop that cooked the god. How could we make that happen? ......(?)........... What if Elder broke off a piece of his own super-soul to remake Raziel and that's why Raziel became a godlike wraith. So every time the soul reaver devours a bit of Elder's essence it's not eating its exact same self (paradox) but more like eating a close cousin (cool feedback loop effect)?

    too confusing. Must stop before head explodes from.....feedback loop.
    not really what i meant, think about it like this, raziel feeds the elder god some of the souls he eats, but if he was munching down on the EG himself, unless there was a minimum amount of soul raziel would have to get from the soul before he shared with the EG the EG would just get weaker right? and as such the EG remaining soul would be a percentage of a percentage and so on, get what i mean?

    as for raziel having some of the EGs powers, i guess that would fit, although suppose that raziel had gained more than his wings when he surpassed kain, what if he gained the ability to enter the spectral realm and through madness in the abyss unwittingly entered the spectral realm when he was on the brink of death and by centuries of being in there recovering from his torment became a permanent inhabitant of sorts, explaining his similarities to the others in the spectral realm.

  5. #5
    that possibility did occur to me too, however if he exists at all times how would anything ever happen in the spectral realm? surely if time never actually moved in there than neither would its inhabitants.
    Don't get confused (or do. I'm good at it). Our universe uses space-time in tandem. You can not move through space without moving through time, and vice versa. But in LoK this is not the case time and space exist seperately (at least in the specral realm), you can move through one without affecting the other. On several "timed" puzzles Raziel must "open a door" then shift to spectral and run through it, becase the door closes too fast in material.

    That said, I understand that by that logic, time may move at a fraction of a percentage, and not actually stand still. But there are cases when time is sped up as well. Like how Raziel was amazed at how "centuries had apparently passed," when he awoke from his descent. And how 500 years pass in Raziel's short time in spectral at Defiance start.

    Brain explosion : Each time Raz is sped into the future, he is in the "underworld" (as the Defiance level was called). In the underworld, there is no "mirror" to the material realm. The only time these places can be visited is in spectral. Perhaps in the underworld time acts differently than in regular spectral?

    only cause him to become weaker, all be it at an exponential rate
    I said in another post, maybe he only way to get rid of a god (EG) is to beat them into a coma so that they still function (turn the wheel) but cannot plot againt you.

    Since the reaver couldn't kill him, could you beat him down until he became non-sentient? But man, that would be a boring boss fight! Two hours of hacking at a tentacle until it stops taunting you.

    who wants to see kain acquire spectral vampire abilities for himself?
    Kain in Spectral would be cool if it was a challenging thing he could do, but probably doesn't want to. Since he doesn't feed on souls he couldn't sustain himself, and heal wounds. As a player you would need to learn how to perfect the fight system, or run like mad.... I enjoy that in games, as long as it's not the entire game. *Cough* DMC3 *Cough*

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    I said in another post, maybe he only way to get rid of a god (EG) is to beat them into a coma so that they still function (turn the wheel) but cannot plot againt you.

    Since the reaver couldn't kill him, could you beat him down until he became non-sentient? But man, that would be a boring boss fight! Two hours of hacking at a tentacle until it stops taunting you.
    but then as you fed the reaver he would recover his power slowly but surely, so he would either always be a threat or the reaver would be useless.

    Kain in Spectral would be cool if it was a challenging thing he could do, but probably doesn't want to. Since he doesn't feed on souls he couldn't sustain himself, and heal wounds. As a player you would need to learn how to perfect the fight system, or run like mad.... I enjoy that in games, as long as it's not the entire game. *Cough* DMC3 *Cough*
    suppose he had to do it for parts of puzzles to unlock new reaver specializations, granting the reaver new abilities, or possibly to super charge the reaver to go into a more powerful state perhaps, strengthening raziel so he can consume the EG, assuming the EG isnt the wheel itself, it certainly seems to me like he is lying a great deal about his power and importance.

  7. #7
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    cp666, please use the edit feature instead of posting again after yourself.

    Also, please don't try and use profanity to circumvent the forums' filter. As I stated in this thread, please refamiliarize yourself with our Terms of Use, thank you.

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    fair enough, though it did censor the word in question

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    Quote Originally Posted by cp666 View Post
    if he exists at all times how would anything ever happen in the spectral realm? surely if time never actually moved in there than neither would its inhabitants.
    time probably does just fine in spectral without EG's help. It moves, but not at a set rate. It's like time is free to relax and do what it wants in spectral, there's no strictly enforced tick-tock, tick-tock. It's like spectral realm is an ocean of time and within that ocean there are some places with faster-moving currents and other places where the water is almost perfectly still. So if you want to go somewhere you've gotta catch a wave of time like any surfer. No one is really required to be in charge of this phenomenon. EG may have some power to move people around in time, not because he's got true godlike control of time but because he knows how to take advantage of the existing time waves in spectral, like a sailor knows how to use the currents and winds. (Edit: Nice catch, Strands. Maybe in Underworld areas timeflow speeds up like you're riding in a motorboat. It could also be that when you're in close proximity to EG you sort of get caught up and swept along in his time-defying nature, but you can't truly join him in timelessness because you're just a mortal, so you end up getting deposited back into the timeflow 500 years in the future?)

    I'm not sure Elder is shifting himself through time like Moebius or Kain do. He might have instead done a one-time (permanent) shift of his consciousness so that he perceives all of time as a single vista now. But he's described as a false god, which means he stole that ability somehow without earning it legitimately. He's a hacker who hacked his way into godhood. He's attached himself to the flow of souls, which are eternal, and that eternal quality is rubbing off onto EG. Example: the LOK series started off as a 2 dimensional game (BO1) and then shifted to 3D. That's the kind of change EG made at some point. He went from seeing time the way us mortals do (2D) and he switched to seeing time in high definition 3D. (He did so by stealing cable TV from the universe). Tapping into the Time Pillar is another likely way Elder is cheating to become godlike.

    what if the EG was leeching from the pillars powers or had corrupted them to some degree
    I wish we knew when the Oracle voice was first heard. That'd help clean up some confusion about ancient times. Did the Oracle inspire the ancients to build the pillars, even telling them the blueprints for how to do it? That doesn't quite sound right to me. If EG already had all the power and then supplied that power to the pillars freely,...... why would he do that? He wouldn't need the ancients at all, then. So I think it's the other way around: he was drawn to the pillars because they had something to offer him that he couldn't get anywhere else. That's why he had to go all deceptive on them.


    the EG would just get weaker right? and as such the EG remaining soul would be a percentage of a percentage and so on, get what i mean?
    hey that would be weird. As the reaver fed on EG, the energy would all be flowing.....right back to EG. It might still tear the god up, though, like a steak that's being ground up by the reaver and processed into hamburger meat as it gets spat back out. Hey, maybe this would cleanse the Elder's spirit, so that he'd emerge "purified of all corruption"!!!!!! (We might see the kind of change in EG that we saw when that demon in BO2 turned back into Janos Audron!!!! We might see Elder restored to what he started off as eons ago before he got cursed and turned nefarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    hey that would be weird. As the reaver fed on EG, the energy would all be flowing.....right back to EG. It might still tear the god up, though, like a steak that's being ground up by the reaver and processed into hamburger meat as it gets spat back out. Hey, maybe this would cleanse the Elder's spirit, so that he'd emerge "purified of all corruption"!!!!!! (We might see the kind of change in EG that we saw when that demon in BO2 turned back into Janos Audron!!!! We might see Elder restored to what he started off as eons ago before he got cursed and turned nefarious.
    Now that is a very interesting thought... perhaps that's why the Reaver causes EG pain - it's the same kind of 'can't consume itself' paradox that shattered the Reaver.
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  11. #11
    Squid: I like your theory that: (Spectral) Time is a river (with currents). And agree that EG does not shift through time like Moebius. My hole theory (haha pun) was aimed at something near that, but missed its mark I guess.

    I don't think there is any evidence that souls are returned to the wheel instantly. It may take time. If you can mince up EG before he is respun into himself, does he become reincarnated as something else?

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    I'm a fan of the hole theory. Just haven't used it recently is all. So EG has sewn himself into time so much, like a needle and thread making lots of stitches, until the only cure is to cut the whole thing out at once. You attack him along the entire timeline somehow with coordinated strikes made in various centuries. Like when you run scissors (the reaver) up underneath all the stitches and yank to slice through all the threads like falling dominoes. This should free your pants (Nosgoth) from the ugly patch (EG) that's been slapped on top of the normal fabric of the universe.

    Normally, this would leave a huge hole in our pants. Luckily for us, Time in LOK is a seamstress who works for free, like mom, to fix our torn clothes. So when we make an incision through all of time to get rid of Elder, Time will just sew things back together good as new. (That's why in another topic I was thinking there'd be a huge Reset of history when Elder is expelled. The normal rule that limits changes to the timeline wouldn't apply ("Only the minimum changes are allowed by history"). Because Elder was such a bigtime player that the 'minimum' changes would still be huge if Time got rid of him like he never existed.

  13. #13
    I always love your posts. They always point out things I never thought of, and your analogies range from amusing to hillarious

    like [your] mom
    I apologize... I couldnt resist.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazielim View Post
    Now that is a very interesting thought... perhaps that's why the Reaver causes EG pain - it's the same kind of 'can't consume itself' paradox that shattered the Reaver.
    In the old fanfic that I've read a few years ago, the Elder God was killed in that way - Kain defeated him with the Soul Reaver, forcing the Elder to devour his own soul which resulted in his complete destruction.

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    that would be a bit too easy though wouldn't it? i kind of miss the BO1 combat where the solution want to run in and hack everything apart, despite its age when compared with the newer games i feel it had a bit more depth to it when it comes to combat

  16. #16
    well the Elder God is a god so he can't be killed
    but can he be banished?
    Nosgoth's one and oniy (and the best) dragon hunter

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    What about a two step plan:
    hurt or weaken elder physically so that he's forced to let go of his grip on this world. (Sever his connection to the wheel of fate, the thing that's feeding him god power).
    then after you tear EG loose from whatever's making him larger than life, then you'd be able to hit him with the banishment thing. (Get the pillars to vacuum him to the other side of the binding, then use the reaver as the key to the pillars so that he's locked out of the world when you raise the binding again).

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    Purified Kain

    "False God"

    EG uses tentacles. Epic fail as Kain leaps like a goat in mid-air.

    Epic slicy dicy time.

    Sword looks awesome!

    EG bazoozes himself like a slimy bastard that he is. It... He's a hermaphrodite. Just like Sponge Bob.

    Waiting total slicy om nom nom thing. I want to prove my speculations correctly

  19. #19
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    Mr.Milky, there's no need to try and censor the word "bastard." The forum does allow that word (plus, it appears a few times in the dialogue from the games), and however you tried to censor it the way you did simply looked like you were trying to get around the forum censor that way.

    I've edited your post accordingly.

    *A good way to tell if the forum will censor a word is to click the Preview Post option next to Submit Reply button. Then you'll know if it's appropriate, or not before actually posting it.

  20. #20
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    Why is the reaver sour?

    Was the Sour Reaver going to be a new elemental reaver in Dark Prophecy?

    And if so, I would want to also forge the reaver with sweetness at some point too. That way we could restore balance to the world using a
    Sweet & Sour reaver.

    EG, after being struck by the Chipotle Reaver: "Owww! That's tangy!"


    on topic:

    (Raziel eating himself is what caused the paradox. So it's not going to be a paradox when the reaver eats EG, since that's Raz eating somebody else. It is going to be circular ouroboros eating though, thanks to the link between them. So it might get weird in an unexpected way.)

  21. #21
    Can we get a candy coating while we're at it? If I were the one carrying that tastilicious sword around all day, I wouldn't want sticky fingers.

  22. #22
    Raziel can't harm the Elder God because, as you said, the soul reaver (both Raziel and his blade) are completely under EG's power, a part of him, controlled by him.

    Kain's physical Soul Reaver is independent of the Elder God's power, it is an enemy of the Soul Reaver, forged to consume and imprison the soul-devouring wraith. Therefore as a physical sword it can easily be used to cut the squid monster. It simply houses the EG's own energy within.

    It's like how we breath oxygen or drink water. They can't harm us. BUT, if you have a sword that could hold water inside of it, and then conduct that water and sword with electrical current, and slash into someone, you will definitely devastate that someone quite fatally.

    Kain always had the potential to damage EG, he could simply never see it, nor could anyone else. Really the only thing the wraith blade does (besides making the soul reaver more powerful) is give Kain the advantage of seeing the monster that haunts Nosgoth.

    Also EG is not actually THE wheel of fate, he is just a creature making wild claims in order to manipulate the world, kind of like some religious leaders we've seen in history, who claim to be prophets and stuff.

    And a wraith Kain would be very interesting indeed, with all of Raziel's abilities, shifting in and out of the spectral realm. He would have to hide the physical reaver somewhere safe though, since there's no way you can take that with you to the ethereal plane.
    "Only the savage regard the endurance of pain as the measure of worth."-Chesire Cat, from Alice: Madness Returns

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostlion88 View Post
    Raziel can't harm the Elder God because, as you said, the soul reaver (both Raziel and his blade) are completely under EG's power, a part of him, controlled by him.
    Raziel is under the EG's control at times (seen when he's weakened enough, and all souls he eats return to the EG), but I don't think that's the reason. The EG's statement about it is:

    "Your actions are irrelevant, Raziel! That weapon you bear, however endowed, remains only a wraith blade. It cannot touch me!"

    From this, he's inferring that the wraith blade cannot harm him because that's all that it is -- an etherial weapon. What's being suggested here in the game is that the reason Raziel can't use the wraith blade to harm the EG is that the EG can phase between realms. When it's united with the physical Reaver, that's when it becomes potent on the EG, as it strikes him in both the physical and spiritual realm at the same time (so the EG cannot phase out of its reach from one plane to the other).

    Kain's physical Soul Reaver is independent of the Elder God's power, it is an enemy of the Soul Reaver, forged to consume and imprison the soul-devouring wraith. Therefore as a physical sword it can easily be used to cut the squid monster. It simply houses the EG's own energy within.
    An enemy? because Raziel is imprisoned within, how can that determine the physical blade to be the enemy of the weapon it uses to transform itself? And it's Raziel's energy, not the EG's, used to power the sword.


    Kain always had the potential to damage EG, he could simply never see it, nor could anyone else. Really the only thing the wraith blade does (besides making the soul reaver more powerful) is give Kain the advantage of seeing the monster that haunts Nosgoth.
    The purified wraith blade heals Kain's sight. The wraith blade in the sword is the newly formed one of Raziel and does not harbor this power. Also, the power that it has is pretty crucial -- it's a soul-devouring weapon/being (as it is Raziel). It is what makes the Soul Reaver, the Soul Reaver. Before, it's the Reaver (fan-dubbed, Blood Reaver). The physical blade alone only drinks blood and, unless you can call that green goop the EG spews from its limbs and eye when hit blood, I don't think that would have had any effect on him.

    Also EG is not actually THE wheel of fate, he is just a creature making wild claims in order to manipulate the world, kind of like some religious leaders we've seen in history, who claim to be prophets and stuff.
    He claims to be the hub of the wheel, in control of it; he doesn't claim to be it. Raziel has seen that the EG does spew forth the souls it devours anew, ignorant and readily made for new destinies. The wheel might be a lie, but it's one he's made real (therefore, might not be a natural occurring phenomenon).

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    A piece of paper has a hole on two opposite corners. The holes cannot move to touch each other but the paper can be folded to make them touch. The holes then are a single hole, in the same time and space (viewed from a spectral vantage), though they exist on opposite ends of the paper, and are seperate holes (from a material vantage).
    Is that an Event Horizon reference?
    This also assumes that EG can move backwards through time. Thus how EG knows who Raziel is, and what he has done when they meet beneath the pillars for the "first" time. You could argue and call it prophecy like Janos knowing him, but I think that EG can see actual events, not just vauge prophecies.
    It's not just EG. Moebius does the same thing when he greets Kain in Defiance by saying "It has been a long time, hasn't it?" when technically it's their first meeting that we know of. And Moebius could be killed...
    So if Kain were to "kill" EG at any time then EG in all times would instantly, always, and forever be dead, having never been alive. Or worse, cease to exist, and by extension, never have existed.
    We have seen EG in different stages of growth beneath the Pillars. I assume that killing him is possible, it just has to be done outside of his area of influence - in the Soul Reaver 1 era. There were hints that he can be killed in the deleted dialogue in Defiance ("I exist in places you cannot find").
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    Raziel is under the EG's control at times (seen when he's weakened enough, and all souls he eats return to the EG), but I don't think that's the reason. The EG's statement about it is:

    "Your actions are irrelevant, Raziel! That weapon you bear, however endowed, remains only a wraith blade. It cannot touch me!"

    From this, he's inferring that the wraith blade cannot harm him because that's all that it is -- an etherial weapon. What's being suggested here in the game is that the reason Raziel can't use the wraith blade to harm the EG is that the EG can phase between realms. When it's united with the physical Reaver, that's when it becomes potent on the EG, as it strikes him in both the physical and spiritual realm at the same time (so the EG cannot phase out of its reach from one plane to the other).
    I don't think it had anything to do with shifting realms. We see characters shifting planes (some lieutenants and demons) and there is always some pause before they shift. EG on the other hand is always present at both realms simultaneously.
    He claims to be the hub of the wheel, in control of it; he doesn't claim to be it.
    Depends on the quote. He also says at some point "I am the Wheel and it's turning". Maybe he's not sure himself :P.

    As for Kain in Spectral - I really like the idea. I had an idea that it shouldn't be Kain's ability but Soul Reaver's ability. This way it could be incorporated only in some parts of the game.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoks View Post
    I don't think it had anything to do with shifting realms. We see characters shifting planes (some lieutenants and demons) and there is always some pause before they shift. EG on the other hand is always present at both realms simultaneously.
    I didn't say shift. I said phase, as in constantly phasing between, in a state of perpetual flux, or as you say, existing in both at the same time.

    Depends on the quote. He also says at some point "I am the Wheel and it's turning". Maybe he's not sure himself :P.
    lol, true, he has used that. Shows his arrogance and need to be so much more than his subject, Raziel, that he will boast to any degree to one-up him. He also states he's the entire engine of life. What it all boils down to is without him, all you little soul-pions would be nothing. One thing is for certain (as certain as it's left so in Defiance, anyway), is that, artificial or not, he is recycling souls to be born anew to a completely new fate along the timeline. The wheel does exist, but perhaps only because he does (as in, souls would never be reborn and entire new souls would replace them once they passed from the world, were it not for this bloated parasite). It's interesting that we don't still know for sure.

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