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Thread: can the elder god be killed with the soul reaver?

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoks View Post
    Is that an Event Horizon reference?
    Yes, but it didnt involve tearing out my eyes.

    It's not just EG. Moebius does the same thing when he greets Kain in Defiance by saying "It has been a long time, hasn't it?" when technically it's their first meeting that we know of. And Moebius could be killed...
    Moebius doesnt count! Hes the time guardian! Hes allowed to do that crazy stuff.

    But why does Janos know Raziel when they meet in the Ayrie (how the heck do you spell that?) for the first time? You can say "prophecy" but thats cheating! The only prophecies we get are from vague murals depicting a hylden and a healthy brawny ancient, that looks nothing like Raziel. And i didnt read an inscription on any of them that said "Go Raziel, Go!"

    Has that ever been officially answered, or is there a simple answer that im missing? Ill cover my bases quick...
    1 In SR2 they meet for the first time in the sarafan era. They meet again in Defiance during the vampire purge. Then (possessed) Janos flies off, and Raziel is absorbed.
    No time for a not-so-previous meeting.
    2 The statue at the fire forge in the Ayrie looks similar to Raz. Is this the answer?
    3 Janos could know of Sarafan Raziel and see the similarity. But I dont think he would just let that Raziel in his home... Oh wait, he would.

    You know Janos stood there, arms behind his back, watching as a band of Sarafan ran across the ice into his castle, while he waited for Raz. If he knows prophecy so well he should have just stayed in bed. Or better yet he and Raz could have jumped off and glided to safety while flipping the sarafan the bird... Just grab the reaver and jump. Raziel can come back later to get the fire reaver. Silly ancient! How did you live thousands of years like that?

    Kain deserves a black heart more anyway. Janos was too nice to have it!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    why does Janos know Raziel when they meet in the Ayrie (how the heck do you spell that?) ..... The statue at the fire forge in the Ayrie looks similar to Raz. ...Janos could know of Sarafan Raziel and see the similarity.... You know Janos stood there, arms behind his back, watching as a band of Sarafan ran across the ice into his castle, while he waited for Raz. ...... Just grab the reaver and jump, Silly ancient! How did you live thousands of years like that? ....Moebius doesnt count!
    Ha. It's the Eyrie. (I know that because it's a castle name in The Game of Thrones). The Raz statue makes it look like at least some prophets knew exactly who to expect as the hero, by name even. And Janos had set up an obstacle course that only Raziel could pass, so when somebody came knocking on his chamber door it was safe to assume the hero had arrived? Let's please continue to believe Janos was as surprised as we were by the Sarafan, or else the whole thing just gets weird. I think Janos was rusty after all those years of nothing changing, and you see that in his reactions, his failure to teleport out, etc. The obstacle course had been safely in place for centuries, so he'd never had to worry about perimeter safety as part of his mental checklist. Then the surprise of meeting Raz, and, well, getting surprise attacked is very understandable. Ultimately, his death was a plot device to prove Janos really was genuine and trustworthy. He did what a father would do for his son by thinking only of Raziel's safety while in the face of danger.

    The very interesting point you raised is about how there was a human sarafan named Raziel running around and Janos knew that the name of the vamp hero was Raziel...... so wouldn't vampires have been VERY ALERT to the presence of any humans named Raziel???? Since, for all Janos knew, maybe he was destined to Turn a human into the vampire messiah, you know?

    And Mobius & Squid may be using the same mechanism for their time awareness, which would just further prove EG's god status is faked. I go back and forth on whether I want EG to be killable. Also, I halfway believe..... he's already dead. Either way, some loophole method should be required to get rid of him, like how only the reaver can do away with Kain. I think it'll take more than just reavering the squid, but the reaver might serve as the cattle prod that can be used to herd him over a cliff into another dimension.


    Quote Originally Posted by ghostlion88 View Post
    a wraith Kain would be very interesting indeed. He would have to hide the physical reaver somewhere safe though, since there's no way you can take that with you to the ethereal plane.
    Well, I assume Kain isn't going to be naked in spectral, unless you're planning on having him be a nebulous soul from the waist down who uses swirling spirit energies as his fig leaf. That could work, actually,...but if we're allowing him to bring clothes along, why not the reaver, since the reaver is wraithy already and could be the item Kain uses to shift between realms. The sword could generate a bubble of semi-normal space around him as he "dives" into spectral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoks View Post
    As for Kain in Spectral - I really like the idea. I had an idea that it shouldn't be Kain's ability but Soul Reaver's ability. This way it could be incorporated only in some parts of the game.
    Yup. And look at you, offering to reduce the programmers' workload like that! We'd be happy with only 'some' spectral, Eidos! (We're like that beggar guy from the movie "I'm gonna git you sucka" who only had like 45 cents so he said to the guy at the fast food place, "Can't you just pour some soda into my hands?"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    When the wraithblade is united with the physical Reaver, that's when it becomes potent on the EG, as it strikes him in both the physical and spiritual realm at the same time (so the EG cannot phase out of its reach from one plane to the other).
    Eldergod is straddling the planes, like you've amended to by saying he's in a state of flux. It's not so much that he's realm-jumping to evade each reaver strike like a game of keepaway with his body, it's more like his presence is permanently spread out into more than one plane so your blows aren't connecting with enough of his essence to do any damage until you strike him in both realms at once. He's slightly out of phase with our world and is using that as a form of high-tech body armor, not to mention he has a cloaking device to evade detection in the first place. The D&D way saying it is you need a +5 magic weapon to damage him.

    The physical blade alone only drinks blood.... ).
    If you think for too long about how the blood reaver would function, you start laughing. It just keeps sucking in blood for hours. Think about it. How much blood storage space does it have in its rivulets, for Hash's sake?! That much volume of liquid is heavy, man! Does it go into some interdimensional space....... OMG...... does it all get sent to fill up Janos' indoor blood lake ??? (Fire Forge). Now that would be a nice tie-together of two things that don't quite make sense by themselves. The blood reaver would go from being a stupid weapon that only competed with vampires for blood to a great tool they could use to store up excess blood for a rainy day.

    The wheel might be a lie, but it's one he's made real (therefore, might not be a natural occurring phenomenon
    He's like that shady air conditioner repair man who removes parts from your unit so it won't work again until you pay him more money to put those same parts back in. So the wheel probably worked before elder came along and rigged it to include himself as a necessary component. It can work again without him. The tricky part is to remove him without the whole system imploding due to how it's been rigged. All that means is we need a dependable repair man to check things out and get spectral running right again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoks View Post
    "I exist in places you cannot find".
    "I am the Wheel and it's turning". Maybe he's not sure himself :P.
    That one line sounds like a whole game right there. A god hunt.
    It's possible that EG is a hack who's in over his head and doesn't fully understand the mystery he's attached himself to. To go with the false god theme, though, I'd expect that he knows his exact relationship to the wheel but misrepresents it to us because that's sensitive information which could reveal his weakness. If we discovered he's not ruling by divine decree but is simply using a mechanism to achieve godhood, well, we'd start looking for the kill switch. That's why he tries extra hard to come off as something eternal we wouldn't even think to replace. The Wheel Talk sermons are just an additional line of defense he's drawn around his achilles heal to prevent us from discovering his weakness or even looking for it. He's left us with no trail to pick up on, no yellow brick road for us to follow that might point the way to our own "godlike" ascension.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    Ha. It's the Eyrie. (I know that because it's a castle name in The Game of Thrones).
    Sorry, but the actual spelling is "Aerie" within the context of the series. In the real world, the terms Eyrie and Aerie are both variant spellings for the nest of a bird-of-prey; but within the games only the "Aerie" variant has been used - that or "Retreat".
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  4. #29
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    Edit: Cabuco just spelled it Aerie in one of his answers.

  5. #30
    I just want to get this straight in my head.

    When Raziel consumes a soul, it is also being consumed by EG, too, right? But when Raziel is drawn into the Reaver, what happens to that ability? Does his soul still continue to feed itself and the EG? Or does that stop? Because if it didn't, when the sword is used to attack EG, he is devouring himself spiritually? Is that one reason why it can harm him?

  6. #31
    It's all speculation.

    But who says that EG has a soul to devour?

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy View Post
    Is that one reason why it can harm him?
    As I mentioned before, in one of the fanfics I read a few years ago, the EG was killed in that way - the Soul Reaver forced him to devour it's own soul, which lead to the "soul can't devour it's soul" paradox and caused the absolute destruction of EG, as it happened with the physical blade before.

  8. #33
    So there is no reason to believe in any of the games that the sword does not stop feeding him, as Raziel fed him before, just because Raziel is in the Reaver. But he thought he was safe because he was invisible from anyone who could harm him. In that case, surely it's the only reason it can kill him (and the reason I guess that at first he wanted Raz to be a prisoner in Spectral, but later didn't care if he left to 'find his destiny'. He never thought he would do it?).

    But for something as big and powerful as EG, it wouldn't be a 'one hit kill', would it.

  9. #34
    In SR1 Kain breaks the reaver over Raziels back. The reaver shatters because (as most of us have read on Daniel Cabuco's forum) 'you cant reave your own soul.' If the reaver forces EG to do this, as Balance Reaver says, there would be a paradox.

    Would this paradox destroy EG? It didnt destroy Raziel, although it did make hom abandon the physical realm. Could this perhaps at the very least banish EG to spectral? This may cause more problems than it solves in the long run...

    Reaver Raziel tried to reave Wraith Raziels soul... Two identical, but seperately individual souls, from two time eras. EG, on the other hand, would be actively consuming his own soul in the present... or perhaps his soul is as timeless and omipresent as he seems to be, so forcing him to feast on his soul at any point in time, would force him to reave his soul always...

    Oww my brain...

    I vote if EG would ever be destroyed it would wipe him from history entirely. He never existed at all. Would there be a history reshuffle? Imagine how that one soul never existing would change the entire story of nosgoth.... Very doubtful our story would ibvolve Raziel or Kain any longer with this outcome. Perhaps they no longer exist either.

    If here is a vaccum something surely will fill the void... Truvelizer!!! Or however its spelled.

    Sorry for the erratic brain knot rant there... I had a point when i started... It got lost i the bbelly of EG somewhere...

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    It's all speculation.

    But who says that EG has a soul to devour?
    What makes you to believe that he doesn't have a soul to be consumed? We've clearly seen that he also devours, he needs food. Kain could harm him. Soul Reaver can't harm something without the soul, basically. So, there is a soul in the EG, just like in any other creature in the Nosgoth. (Not sure about the shades, though)

    I have to say, people give EG too much credit for being the master trickster in the series. I state that he ain't nothing but a overfed bastard who developed a lot of powers during the course of time. Why? because of his parasitic appearance.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    What makes you to believe that he doesn't have a soul to be consumed?
    I simply wondered "what if?" I dont know anymore than you do if EG has a soul or not. I just didnt see anyone on the thread ask if EG has a soul. Obviously, he might...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    Soul Reaver can't harm something without the soul, basically. So, there is a soul in the EG, just like in any other creature in the Nosgoth. (Not sure about the shades, though)
    What? No, the shades do not have souls, or the wraith blade would absorb them in SR2. The gargoyles/statues in defiance also appeared to have no souls. The walls that you break in Defiance obviously dont have souls. But you can harm all of these things with the wraith/reaver blade.

    The reaver itself isnt enough to harm EG. We see this in SR, SR2, AND Defiance. In SR1 and 2 you meet EG's "body" (in the abyss or below the pillars) and cannot harm him in either instance. If thats not enough, during Raziels first level in Defiance EG blocks doorways with his tentacles. Raziel cannot harm the tentacles to get through the doorway.

    Harming EG is either
    1. A job for the (purified) scion of balance
    2. Restricted to certain places in Nosgoth where EG has manifested more of himself in the material realm (spirit forge)
    3. The Reaver works in tandem with the Scion
    4. Some mix between 1, 2, and 3, or something altogether different.


    Harming EG is NOT the Reavers job, or Raziel would have been able to at least make EG giggle.

    Sure you can argue that the Physical Soul Reaver (not wraith blade) can harm him, but that makes your soul devouring arguement moot: Both blades absorb souls, why would one harm him and not the other if the reason it hurts EG is because it is reaving his soul?!

    But like I said... All speculation.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    What? No, the shades do not have souls, or the wraith blade would absorb them in SR2.
    The shades are fragments of other souls that have been partially devoured:

    7. Why do the shades charge up the wraith blade, I thought they had no soul?

    They themselves do not have souls, but the Shades are formed by the fragments of half-devoured souls that cannot find their rest. Over time building themselves up enough form to coalesce into a Shade. Thus, even though they have no souls their form itself was once made from them.

  13. #38
    My point was that the Reaver can hurt things even if they do not have souls. Saying the reaver only hurts things with souls is like saying a steak knife only cuts steak.

    And your quote says, "They have no souls." (Dunno if that means just gameplay soul that is reaveable, or actual soul, but Ill use it against you anyway )

    Adding to my last post (aka beating the horse): If the soul reaver (by itself) could harm EG, then Raziel himself should be able to harm/reave EG. Afterall, it is his own soul inside the reaver. There is little difference other than a physical body/manifestation. And maybe sentience. Same reaving ability though.

  14. #39
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    As stated earlier, Defiance suggests heavily that the reason the wraith blade doesn't hurt the EG, but the Soul Reaver does, is that it's a weapon striking the EG in two planes of existence at once. The physical blade hits it in the physical world and the wraith blade portion hits it in the Spectral Realm.

    As for the EG having a soul: unknown. It is affected by the leaching of spiritual energy, at least, given how the Spirit Forge weakened it/him.

  15. #40
    Touche.

    Just wanted to argue.

  16. #41
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    These threads are for discussing and debating reasonable points, not just for plain arguing. That's as bad as flaming, so please refrain from just wanting to vent, Strands.

    Take Kain out for some calamari hunting instead

  17. #42
    I thought i did make some reasonable points.

    Think Ill take BO2 Kain out for some Hylden hunting instead. (haha get what I did there?)

  18. #43
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    Enjoy your victory, while you can Just remember: we shall return!

  19. #44
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    Ahahah. Yes, I see your will to talk about it. and it's a good thing to speculate a bit regarding it. Well, the spectral blade couldn't harm EG in the same manner that it couldn't harm spectral Dumah. While Raziel is in the spectral realm he and the sword are one the same being. He can't have the Reaver harming EG while in Spectral because the Reaver was never complete without the essence - Raziel. So, basically, the whole concept was to have original Raziel in the Reaver that's in the hands of Kain to even be able to hurt/see EG.

    It's stated, however, that all creatures are drawn to the wheel of fate and behind the scenes it means that all living things are possessing their soul form.

    ---

    A better question would be - why can't the Reaver hurt Dumah in the physical world rather than whether EG does posses a soul xD (and he does xD because I say so xD lol )

  20. #45
    I believe the answer to why is Dumah invincible was covered in one of the QAs with the developers. I dont have time to look for it now, but i think (i may be way off) the answer was something like: each if the Lieutenants (sp?) evolved based on how much of Kains soul was bestowed when raising them. Dumah being third in line (after Raziel and Turel) was gifted with enough soul to become nearly god-like. The only weaknesses that remained seemed to be the prime vampire weaknesses- fire, impalement, and likely sunlight and water. Normal wounds would either bounce off his hide, or heal so quickly to appear as though no damage was done.

    Edit: or maybe, like Rahab becoming immune to water, Dumah evolved immunites to most attacks.

  21. #46
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    Hm, I say that Dumah is very resistant against any physical attacks where his armor is. However, he appears to have his weak spots, as the stakes in his body indicate, which were probably inflicted in that surprise attack. It seems that only large heat wave could melt away the armor and kill him for good.

  22. #47
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    I think the strategy guide says something like that about his armor. There is definitely no interview where they discuss this, however. Dumah in the game is pretty much off the wall with his boasts, and to him being in Spectral that long and coming back to life probably made him feel he had to be invincible (the Lieutenants also weren't so right in the head after these centuries of devolving/languishing). I am sure Kain could have taken him, though.

  23. #48
    Apologies, I must be remembering an altered past.

    I swear I read something like that somewhere... Meh.

  24. #49
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    Dumah made the boast immediately after waking up from a long nap, so he was talking about eclipsing the Kain he remembered from a couple centuries back, not the current Kain. During that same time span Kain had of course been growing stronger too, and his upgrades would have allowed him to still defeat the new and improved Dumah. It's interesting to imagine, though, that each of the necro lords was becoming so specialized that they probably COULD defeat Kain in their specialty. While Kain would always be better all around, if he ventured into the home turf of a lieutenant things would even up. Like if Kain challenged Dumah to a punching contest, look out.

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    when Salira Blood Omen 3

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