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Thread: The hatred towards Kain from Moebius

  1. #1

    The hatred towards Kain from Moebius

    If you remember correctly, Kain offers some insight about the history he knew of the vampire guardians when he discovers the mural of the human guardian revolt. He says and I quote...

    "This history, in part, I knew already… How, as the Vampires began to die out, the Pillars summoned human Guardians to fulfill their roles. It seemed the ancient Vampires had adopted – and, when necessary, abducted – the human Guardians, and made vampires of them when they came of age. Until the humans rebelled against their masters… And here I made a surprising discovery: it was Moebius the Time Streamer, and Mortanius, Guardian of Death, who led the bloody revolt. Now I understood why Moebius hated me so intensely. I was the first vampire Guardian in all these centuries – and he knew what my coming signified…or perhaps I reminded him of all he had forsaken. "

    So I get the fact that Moebius is worried that the Vampires, once restored back into Nosgoth rule, would continue this cycle that Kain accurately described and doesn't want Kain to give rebirth to that. But what I don't understand is the deeper hatred from him. As I recall, a younger Kain crossed paths with Moebius, who was under the guise of a different person in the original Legacy Of Kain, in order to seek out advice in how to deal with the rest of the Pillar guardians in order to find the cure to his vampire state. But I also recall that nothing personal happened between the two before their first meeting. So why does Moebius truly hate him that much, besides the fact that his coming signified the beginning of an old age?

    That also reminds me; I don't think we ever got a glimpse of Moebius's past all too much, not from childhood to his death. We just know that he was unknowingly serving a god who was really a squid all this time and thought he had going oh so well for him...until Raziel and Kain finished him off. So why didn't we get to hear more about him? We only know about his manipulations, his intentions, his orchestrations of all the events that has occurred in the games and I believe we only heard so little of him in Legacy Of Kain 2. So it makes me wonder why we didn't get to hear much of his past. Perhaps it was because the games were, once again, rushed out of the door.

    Anybody?

  2. #2
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    With Moebius, it's not as simple as nothing personal happened between them at their first meeting. Moebius is the Time Guardian and more or less knows the entirety of history (excepting Raziel's actions). When he rebels for control of the Pillars, he already *knows* that in hundreds of years Kain is going to chop his head off, damn the Pillars, create a doomed empire, starve his god and stagnate Nosgoth, travel back in time and attempt to beat him at his own game using paradoxes. He knows from the outset how Kain will interact with him and knows he doesn't like it. It "was" personal before they ever met.

    As for his past, I don't think we can blame this on rushed games. Would the games have even tried to explored it in much more detail, if they weren't rushed? They're written like plays, where flashback sequences break the narrative style. The only way we were going to learn about his past was through time travel, or a mural. Even then, would there have been much more to say?

  3. #3
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    He's the time streamer and we're not, so Moebius' personal history is lost in time, a mystery to us, just the way he wants it.

    Also, the extra hate for Kain could come from frustration over how Moe's own tool (Kain) got out of Moe's control and ended up running the show for a thousand years. You know how a loss hurts more when you realize you really beat yourself. Part of Moebius' anger could be he's professionally embarrassed. Mortified by how he should have known how to handle Kain better, you know?

    Plus, Moebius is a big pro-human guy. He's racist against non-humans. So the threat of vampires taking control again and undoing all his work is quite enough all by itself to get Moe super vengeful.


    ( I wonder if a Time Guardian instantly knows the entire timeline or if it takes a long period of study before they're "up to speed" and fully aware of the tapestry of time. (Do they swoon for a few years from the shock of it all?) It took Kain a long time. I guess Time Guardians would start off by having more natural ability, like Mozart at the piano. A special gift for looking things up in the timestream and tracing cause and effect, analyzing the timeline, etc.

    But I don't know if they constantly carry all of time around with them in their brains like Elder seems to. Perhaps the reason Elder can mess with Moes's head and lead him around by the nose (aside from Moe having Nupraptor's insanity) is that Elder sees the big picture better (is perched outside the rim of time) while Mobius' power uses less RAM memory and only allows him to download the relevant info for what he's currently working on.

    (Remember Kain's speech about infinite knowledge being too much for the human mind to contain). So there'd be corners that Elder could see around but Meobius might get blindsided because Elder had been controlling the information flow like a Chinese search engine???? )

  4. #4
    Your post made me laugh out loud, Squid. Good analogies!

    But you guys do have a point. Moebius wanted Kain to be his puppet and for a time, that was accomplished, until Kain realized what truly happened and was determined to get out of his grasp. Cutting off his head seemed like the right idea at the time, but here comes Moebius again, somehow back alive. We didn't know why until sometime later why that act transpired. So Moebius tries to use Kain's former servant, Raziel, to kill him for good or to try and manipulate the situation to work in his advantage. Still, I just wasn't sure why the hatred, besides from what I pointed out. Did Moebius's parents have any contact with the vampires? Was he stolen from them and made into something that he couldn't handle? So many questions about his past.

    And also, on the note of interaction, I don't think any interaction happened between Moebius and Kain until Defiance. Last I remember, neither Moebius nor Kain initiated any conversation between each other in Soul Reaver 2, but they did try to get Raziel to see things their way and make them an ally. In that aspect, I think that's also another reason why Moebius develops such an utter hatred for him; another possible tool that Moebius could have used to his advantage...any control for Raziel was wrested away from him and taken by Kain. Of course, Moebius seemed to get the last laugh when Raziel "kills" Kain, but that didn't happen either.

  5. #5
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    Moebius is out for himself and his God's cause. All else, even humans, are expendable. Remember what he tells Raziel when they first meet, that before he faces Kain he's first have to find his way out of the stronghold "...and in this, I'm afraid I cannot help you. My soldiers will not understand your appearance here -- they will try to kill you! You needn't fear them, of course. They're no match for you. Try to keep the casualties to a minimum, but ... do what you have to do... All great movements require a few martyrs..." (said with a delicious sneer on his face, as if he actually welcomed the bloodbath Raziel was about to cause). All Moebius most likely wants is to be highest on the food chain in his God's eyes, and all else can be damned next to this ultimate power.

    As for hatred of Kain, as Kain states, Moebius knew what Kain's coming signified. He was the Scion of Balance, so he must be stopped at all cost. The vampires had tried to turn Moebius, Mortanius, and the others, into them before Moebius and Mortanius led the revolt. Moebius would have no love anyway for any of their kind trying to take power back from -- not really just humans, but rather from -- him, not the Guardians, or humanity. They were threatening Moebius' very seat of power and that could never be allowed. Meeting Kain first under the guize of the Oracle of Nosgoth was specifically to send Kain on the path to alter his own destiny and to bring about the full destruction of the vamprie race. However, Moebius also knows that Kain still kills him even if this all succeeds, something Moe tells Raziel he foresaw "long ago" (this is in SR2's opening, still, which takes place before Kain is even born), but Moebius is confident he will be revived by his loving God. I'd expect there would be an added layer of despise toward Kain for knowing he's the one that would chop off Moebius' head... I can't expect that would be so easily pushed to the back of his mind, and he'd revel even more at sending young Kain on his merry way to his own race's destruction.

    I should note, however, that I don't think that, in my opinion, Moebius actually treated Kain with any more malevolence than he did for Raziel, or for anyone else he probably threw under the buss, manipulated, etc. Moebius had some almost truthful discorse with Kain in Defiance. He gave advice on humility, tried to plead with him on his actions and their ramifications. He did the same thing to Raziel in SR2. Kain seems to be taking it more personally than really it was, and the truth is, well ... that's just Moebius. He's like that toward all, but yeah, Kain being the Scion, removing him was top priority.

  6. #6
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    Yeah the Oracle's mission is everything, and all things are a tool to be used to achieve what he wants. Including humans. Good point. Humans are expendable, but at the same time they're also preferable to the other species, so he spends their lives but in the pursuit of bolstering mankind's overall destiny. The individual doesn't matter, from his perspective. Win the long term timeline battle for species dominance, and the individuals who've died along the way will not have died in vain. The question is, does he spend their lives too easily. Do we really want the 'caretaker' of our species to be someone who'd so blithely sacrifice individual humans like Moe does? It kind of makes Moe's character even more suspect and begs the question of whether his ultimate aims can truly be good for us if he's willing to use any means to get us there. (Though I'm deeply tired of the ends vs. means morality debate, it of course rages on even without my participation.)


    Then of course there's the counterpoint of Kain showing him that at least one individual does matter. (Could be another reason for the strong personal dislike. Kain disproves Moe's theory about the individual not mattering. Kain refuses to be smothered by the flow of history. His persistence refutes Moe's attempt to play god).

    Also, that "Do what you must" line he says to Raziel strikes me as a cover up. Raziel was about to tear through the Sarafan stronghold anyway and Moebius knew it. So by seeming to give Raziel permission, Moe continues to appear more in control than he really is.

  7. #7
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    What, isn't his own decapitation enough of a reason to hold a grudge?

    The question is, does he spend their lives too easily
    How? I mean, he doesn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter, Raziel, Kain, and Vorador aren't particularly inclined to spare people's lives, and he can't really tell his Sarafan 'Don't attack the vampire/demonic creature rampaging through our fortress'? without them becoming suspicious as to his motives.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  8. #8
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    That's easy. Moebius follows the EG cult of the "Wheel of fate". It's only natural for him to hate someone who lives forever and kills something such as human race in the same way that it was disgusting to the Ancients how the Hyldens didn't want to follow the EG (without knowing that it's the EG, anyway...or maybe they did but they enjoyed to see Vampires suffering in ignorance).

    In the end Moebius was nothing more than a pawn with almost irrational hatred towards anything that's 'non-human". In fact I believe that he does enjoy in everything because he did see Raziel killing Kain and it was enough for him to lose it. But he didn't see (nor he nor EG) that Kain will remain alive. That was unusual.

    Now there's another thing there - perhaps some more intelligent creature came out from the vortex that Raziel blew Kain into while Kain himself was unconscious.

    But I don't see Moebius "hating" Kain, actually. he seems pretty friendly. If you were asking me he'd aparently call Kain for a cup of tea to discuss the Nosgoths politics.

  9. #9
    Mr. Milky beat me to it.

    I've been playing SR1 and SR2 this past week, the first time properly in a few years, and listening carefully to all the dialogue. I see that right from the beginning of your resurrection as Raziel, EG has you on a tight need-to-know basis, constantly indoctrinating you that killing Kain will make everything better, and turning you pretty quickly against the vampire you just spent a millennium as. A pack of lies that he certainly told Moebius and his other slaves too, and it's convincing enough I guess when you see that Nosgoth has become a corpse and the place riddled with degenerate creatures that Kain created. EG's a bigger manipulator than Moebius could ever hope to be.

    Raziel isn't a believer, but easily blinded by his anger and made to go chasing after Kain. Moebius seems to have been a faithful servant, but even if he and other servants didn't 'hate' Kain because EG rationalised a reason/'evidence' for them to, it would have only added to the fear or hate the humans already felt for vampires, what with their abductions for the circles, and blood-drinking and undead-ness and all.

    (We don't know the full story yet but I am guessing that EG *is* a usurping entity and not a real god as he claims that is *supposed* to be there recycling souls. He just has some convincing arguments and functions. If someone slaughters the EG though, what *will* happen to all of the souls? :/ )

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    Moebius was abducted as a child, made to serve the Ancients as a guardian. he grew up knowing that he'll be made a vampire.

    given he was then called upon by the EG, who positioned himself as the God the vampires worshipped, (and told Moebius to worship), but who refused to speak to them, but spoke to Moebius, I don't see it as ahuge difficulty for EG to make whatever fear and resentment Moebius probably already felt blossom into true hate.

    Moebius doesn't hate Kain, personally. but Kain is the last vampire, and he is the threat to undo the work of Moebius' life. it's small wonder Moebius wants him dead.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kud13 View Post
    Moebius was abducted as a child, made to serve the Ancients as a guardian. he grew up knowing that he'll be made a vampire.

    given he was then called upon by the EG, who positioned himself as the God the vampires worshipped, (and told Moebius to worship), but who refused to speak to them, but spoke to Moebius, I don't see it as ahuge difficulty for EG to make whatever fear and resentment Moebius probably already felt blossom into true hate.

    Moebius doesn't hate Kain, personally. but Kain is the last vampire, and he is the threat to undo the work of Moebius' life. it's small wonder Moebius wants him dead.
    I don't believe this was ever confirmed, at least as far as Moebius is concerned. In fact, I don't think much of his past was spoken of as much in the first place.

  12. #12
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    Kain when assessing the mural with young Moe in it:

    This history, in part, I knew already... How, as the Vampires began to die out, the Pillars summoned human Guardians to fulfil their roles. It seemed the ancient Vampires had adopted - and, when necessary, abducted - the human Guardians, and made vampires of them when they came of age. Until the humans rebelled against their masters... And here I made a surprising discovery: it was Moebius the Time Streamer, and Mortanius, Guardian of Death, who led the bloody revolt. Now I understood why Moebius hated me so intensely. I was the first vampire Guardian in all these centuries - and he knew what my coming signified... or perhaps I reminded him of all he had forsaken.
    It's as confirmed as it's probably ever going to be with that assessment of things. Moe and the rest of the humans were abducted at birth and they were (in Moe's case, would have been) made into vampires when they came of age, or when they grew to adulthood.


    I still don't think that Moebius was really exacting his deep-seeded anger at Kain, so much as he was assuring his God's will and, by that very act, his own rise to ultimate power. Moebius is out for himself first, all else second.

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    I actually disagree. I see Moebius as more of a Fanatic, who hates Vampires, and carries out the will of his God.

    but then again, my perception is probably skewed by this:



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    kud13, please use the YouTube tags and don't just post the links. Thanks.


    And you shouldn't be swayed much by this. Moebius is clearly saying what needs to be said to convince these people to be his army -- his puppets. He did as much when speaking to William the Just for him to become his ally. He did the same to Raziel, pretending to be his ally, pretending to be concerned, angry, benevolent, sad, pleading -- whatever it took to get Raziel to do the deed. Then, at the end of SR2, Moebius drops the "It was fun while it lasted [you imbecile]" on Raziel. It's all just whatever is needed to be said and done to get his agenda going. He's the best politician in Nosgoth...

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    oh, of that I have no doubt. but there is nothing indicating that he wasn't driven my a religious zeal, either.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    kud13, please use the YouTube tags and don't just post the links. Thanks.


    And you shouldn't be swayed much by this. Moebius is clearly saying what needs to be said to convince these people to be his army -- his puppets. He did as much when speaking to William the Just for him to become his ally. He did the same to Raziel, pretending to be his ally, pretending to be concerned, angry, benevolent, sad, pleading -- whatever it took to get Raziel to do the deed. Then, at the end of SR2, Moebius drops the "It was fun while it lasted [you imbecile]" on Raziel. It's all just whatever is needed to be said and done to get his agenda going. He's the best politician in Nosgoth...
    And does an excellent job at it. He's able to manipulate everyone for his own agenda and it certainly took him far in his quest to get rid of Kain once and for all. Unfortunately, despite his efforts, he still didn't get the job done in the end. Kain wasn't killed at all and both Kain and Raziel got the last laugh when he was first killed in the material realm, then had his soul devoured in the spectral realm. Moebius, it was fun while it lasted, you imbecile.

  17. #17
    I love it when complex stories and characters leave room for speculation. I never thought about Moebius personally dreading being turned into a vampire, and there are lots of neat potential reasonings behind his actions. Something about the way Moe acts and speaks though makes me think even though he thought he was on the ball, he was afraid (or a fearful character) rather than one motivated by complete self-righteousness and confidence.

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    I don't see how the vampires could've pick Moebius (kidnap?) to serve as a guardian.

    As i see it the time of vampire guardians in the BO era is long forgotten and the humans claimed the pillars for themselves.

    So, basically, I don't think that Moebius hates Kain because of that. But, like I said, they'd have some tea :}

  19. #19
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    They did kidnap him. It's in the murals.

    The Pillars chose him as Guardian, so they had to kidnap him to tutelage him and prepare to turn him when he came of age. However, he and Mortanius revolted before the turning, and here we are.

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    Ok, it is like that... but what about "The stones too can lie"?

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    The stones might lie, but these murals were in part confirmed by Mortanius to Raziel and are a huge plot point in Defiance:

    "But they [the vampires] were right and we were wrong to overthrow them, Moebius and I."

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    So can that event be connected to the creation of the scepter? It looks logical to me, but the question is how he attained that type of staff.
    Just a thought : Perhaps the Hylden had to do something with it, like an old Hylden "weapon" that's contrary to the Vampire weapon, but it was never used properly so it was left in ruins during the great expel of the Hylden race. So Moebius somehow came to the status of possessing it (or was led to it, "tricked" to grab it).
    Anyway, it would be nice if that part of the history was properly presented.

  23. #23
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    It's presented here.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corlagon View Post
    It's presented here.
    Much appreciated!

  25. #25
    Honestly, I'm not surprised ANYONE would hate Kain with a passion, it's almost a dark gift how he gets on people's bad side.

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