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Thread: Flat story/characters?

Flat story/characters?

  1. #26
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    Originally Posted by Daedatheus
    Ugh. Sounds like a total ripoff of a character from the succesful 2005 play Scorched, which is actually written by a man who lives in Quebec whose work is likely well known in Montreal, where of course Deus Ex:HR was born. Ain't that funny...
    That synopsis is almost non-existant...

    If anything, her backstory is generic (similar to one of the characters in MGS4) but seems like a last minute throw in since it was mentioned neither in the game or the novel.

    (click image to enlarge)

  2. #27
    Originally Posted by JCpie
    That synopsis is almost non-existant...
    Woops, you're right. I didn't even read the Wikipedia page, but I've read the actual play, and one of the key characters goes mute for the rest of her life after witnessing her people being slaughtered (as well as some other nasty things).

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by Enwer87
    I agree that not delivering a full game is disrespectful and so in my previous post I said that devs shouldnt overextend themselves in the first place. But if they do the "lesser evil" would be to be honest and deliver the rest later, not forcing an ugly, dissapointing finale to the entire game that is good otherwise. And if they want to sell you the same game on and on you can just stop buying. But why spoil a game that could have been a classic ?!
    Well, I don't think that the ending would have been different at all. It's completely logical with the rest of the game Panchea is mentioned constantly throughtout the game, Darrow is the most important figure with all the documents you can find about his speeches, and the biochip thing is already mentioned in the opening sequence.
    Besides, it's not because you didn't get the intentions in the finale level that it was disappointing for everyone (somebody explained the System Shock 2 vibe better than me)
    And the button choice without any proof of what happens next is just too obvious for not hiding anything.
    (I didn't say that content was not cut though because it's a known fact, but they manage the rest pretty well regardless of that, in my opinion. I know it's not what most people here think but...)

    I will advice you to read the few threads about the endings/Megan/Namir/D Project, you will have to read a lot of the same complain again and again though but maybe your opinion will change for the few people that tried to actually explain things instead of saying it was just crap.

  4. #29
    Originally Posted by sonicsidewinder
    - Vtmb reference to the Nosferatu Hacker, Mitnick.
    Why do you think it was a reference to a Nosferatu Mitnick and not to actual Kevin Mitnick?
    Reference to a reference?
    Relics
    Dota 2 invites left: 16

  5. #30
    What the hell is going on here. Who cares how many times DX:HR winks at Deus Ex or other media. That has absolutely nothing to do with the plot, story, and writing.

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by JCpie
    My take is that considering the plot there was little they could do to expand the backstory of the characters like Barrett, Fedorova and Namir in the game itself, thus meaning they expanded it in the novel and guide.

    This is why I think Icarus Effect is better than Human Revolution. You would play as Ben Saxon, thinking that the Tyrants were alright but then uncovering the conspiracy behind them and having to take them on after working with them for a while. Similar to Gunther and Anna. Another thing is that in Icarus Effect, Saxon uncovers the overaching conspiracy/plot with the killing floor whereas Human Revolution seems to be limited to Zhao and Darrow.
    Meanwhile, I mean a few years later - Deus Ex: The Fall. :P

  7. #32
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    I called it.

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  8. #33
    I haven't read Icarus Effect but I've started The Fall. Does the novel contain spoilers for the game? Not that I had any intention of reading it but I'm curious to know where in the timeline these pieces fit together.

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by ColBashar
    I haven't read Icarus Effect but I've started The Fall. Does the novel contain spoilers for the game? Not that I had any intention of reading it but I'm curious to know where in the timeline these pieces fit together.
    I think The Fall is a sequel to Icarus Effect. So it's actually kind of advised to read it before playing. Also - TF is pretty short and it ends with a "To be continued" screen.

  10. #35
    Thank you. I didn't realize that the stories were in continuum. Eidos Montreal and their prequels, sequels, and derivative materials!

  11. #36
    I think The Fall also serve as a recapitulation of some events from the book. So having read the book you will probably know the outcomes of some stuff happening in the game as well.

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by BoB_
    Well, I don't think that the ending would have been different at all. It's completely logical with the rest of the game Panchea is mentioned constantly throughout the game, Darrow is the most important figure with all the documents you can find about his speeches, and the biochip thing is already mentioned in the opening sequence.
    Besides, it's not because you didn't get the intentions in the finale level that it was disappointing for everyone (somebody explained the System Shock 2 vibe better than me)
    And the button choice without any proof of what happens next is just too obvious for not hiding anything.
    (I didn't say that content was not cut though because it's a known fact, but they manage the rest pretty well regardless of that, in my opinion. I know it's not what most people here think but...)

    I will advice you to read the few threads about the endings/Megan/Namir/D Project, you will have to read a lot of the same complain again and again though but maybe your opinion will change for the few people that tried to actually explain things instead of saying it was just crap.
    You can't expect reading in game literature to be counted towards the story for most gamers, I'm sure most didn't read the many ebooks, I'm sure most people searched for them all, and stiill didn't read them for the achievement.

    I like the idea of reading in game text like in Skyrim, but I admit I haven't read them all yet, so yeah. That's won't sway anyone.

    I'm not defending the ending, I would've liked a different final boss, different ending plot as well, but as for replay value that didn't ruin it for many, as many have played this game over and over.

    As long as it sales, they'll do what they want, just like the film industry. Was the gaming industry ever about, "hey let's build this software to challenge and wow people, as in thats our first priority."

    Things that get me are the dialogue animations, disgusting, dx11 requirement for a game that doesn't look the best(im playing spec ops that runs on dx9 and its a great looking game))

    Although the color scheme and ambient feeling(relatively quiet, along with the relaxing music) Detroit/hengsha is okay, but there are games with bigger more interesting hub cities.

    All chars don't have to be fleshed out on screen, especially since were going from the blind perspective of Jensen and Sarif employees, doesn't make the game a filler, but open ended, w/ a pov. Did you want cut scenes w/ Harrow making smart remarks and killing of his henchmen?

    I actually like the idea of complete sacrifice to reach his goal, Darrow was driven by failure to do so,

    I doubt there will be a another Jensen, which is dissatisfying, why create a new char we like then take him away, all speculation but it would still suck in my opinion.

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    I doubt there will be a another Jensen, which is dissatisfying, why create a new char we like then take him away
    Because every other Deus Ex game has had a different main character? That's one of the elements of the series. This isn't Mass Effect.
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  14. #39
    Originally Posted by Shralla
    Because every other Deus Ex game has had a different main character? That's one of the elements of the series. This isn't Mass Effect.
    Every other game huh? IW is just that Invisible to many, although I'll prob. play it and not the original.

    And this is a diff. time for games, as they said in the making of the game video, they wanted to attract a wider audience, specifically saying casual gamers.

    People will most likely feel attached to the game if there is a character that is recurring. This isn't a rule that should be set in stone I know, but they created a good character, with a dark past, cool HUD shades.

    Would've been cool to see Jensen take on nano augs, and eventually they could be used as upgrades in another installment.

  15. #40
    Jensen was a pretty shallow character. He failed both at being a good character on his own as well as acting as a vehicle for the player. He had too much personality to be a player stand-in, but not enough to be a great character in
    his own right.

    His defining personality trait was the fact that he spent the entire game chasing and lamenting his ex-girlfriend in a pretty pathetic display of emotional attachment. If he had spent the game chasing the conspiracy itself and not using her as an excuse to chase the conspiracy, I would have been able to empathize with him much more. As it stands he reminds me of a neckbeard's definition of "romantic."
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  16. #41
    Originally Posted by Shralla
    Jensen was a pretty shallow character. He failed both at being a good character on his own as well as acting as a vehicle for the player. He had too much personality to be a player stand-in, but not enough to be a great character in
    his own right.

    His defining personality trait was the fact that he spent the entire game chasing and lamenting his ex-girlfriend in a pretty pathetic display of emotional attachment. If he had spent the game chasing the conspiracy itself and not using her as an excuse to chase the conspiracy, I would have been able to empathize with him much more. As it stands he reminds me of a neckbeard's definition of "romantic."
    Lol romantic neckbeards? Didn't know they existed.

    I saw him as someone who's obviously been through a lot, and after later seeing a few of his lifes events, we can see how he's a rather quiet, troubled, and focused individual.

    Playing with a character that has a personality isn't that bad, but it can ruin the experience if you don't like the character, I don't think Jensen is unlikable.


    Hes been through some pretty tough situations, then killed and the last thing he sees is his exgf getting slapped, if having a ty life is considered failure, thats a moral problem on the viewers behalf.

    Searching for someone isn't a personality trait though, neither is being emotionally attached to an ex gf who you work with, and know that main reason your not together is b/c shes devoted to her work and not another guy. She's still in the realm of being someone you care about, even if you are frustrated that she would rather work than spend time with you.


    LoL in fact im sure many more people empathize with him because Megan was taken, not b/c of some conspiracy, we as players know very little about. He followed orders the whole game, the fact that he came across Megan was rather coincidental.

  17. #42
    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    You can't expect reading in game literature to be counted towards the story for most gamers, I'm sure most didn't read the many ebooks, I'm sure most people searched for them all, and stiill didn't read them for the achievement.
    I think if the premise of the game is good enough, people will read the in-game literature. I myself stopped reading the emails/e-books in HR because there was no substance, no foreshadowing...no detailed description of the current state of affairs. DX1 on the other hand...even the books Chris Todd made up were treats to read through. Not only was the actual material of the books cool, but the locations of them gave you insight into the people you fight/meet. Finding an MJ12 trooper taking a break while reading Jacob's Shadow or discovering a copy of The Man Who Was Thursday in a secret lab added just the right touch. Of course, a game shouldn't rely on these things to propel the story forward.

    All chars don't have to be fleshed out on screen, especially since were going from the blind perspective of Jensen and Sarif employees, doesn't make the game a filler, but open ended, w/ a pov. Did you want cut scenes w/ Harrow making smart remarks and killing of his henchmen?
    Sure, I don't expect all characters to be fleshed out on screen; but they should, then, flesh them out in the in-game literature. HR did neither.

    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    Every other game huh? IW is just that Invisible to many, although I'll prob. play it and not the original.

    And this is a diff. time for games, as they said in the making of the game video, they wanted to attract a wider audience, specifically saying casual gamers...People will most likely feel attached to the game if there is a character that is recurring.
    Deus Ex is more about plot than the character you play as; the protagonist is just a vehicle for your own personality and actions. Also, a recurring protagonist is not required for the feeling of attachment. Red Dead Redemption resonated with almost all of my friends, even the non-gamers, and that was just 1 game. I'm attached to John Marston even though I've only played him once. On the contrary, I have zero connection with recurring appearances of Desmond and Ezio from AC. How the character is used in a game is more important than how much screen time they are given. Even 'blank' characters can elicit attachment (e.g. JC Denton) if used in a memorable way.

    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    I saw him as someone who's obviously been through a lot, and after later seeing a few of his lifes events, we can see how he's a rather quiet, troubled, and focused individual.

    Playing with a character that has a personality isn't that bad, but it can ruin the experience if you don't like the character, I don't think Jensen is unlikable.

    Hes been through some pretty tough situations, then killed and the last thing he sees is his exgf getting slapped, if having a ty life is considered failure, thats a moral problem on the viewers behalf.
    The character's personality underlines the bad writing. Character development failed on all levels, and this really isn't acceptable when it comes to the protagonist. EM wants us to care about Jensen and Megan, but gives us no reason to. Their previous relationship is never explored nor is there any resolution between the two. EM never shows us what's at stake, why all of the missions even matter. I can assert and show some evidence that Jensen is just the lesser of two evils and that his actions are the result of corporate greed...a claim I don't think EM was aiming for. But that's another root problem of the character -- he isn't a maverick, he doesn't question, and he is too dependent on others. I, the player, am playing as someone who is controlled by someone else (Sarif). In this light, Jensen is marginally better than your typical Call of Duty grunt.

    With regards to his past, this was also a wasted opportunity. Yes, from the few clips that we saw, we can conclude that he is internalizing a lot. But why not explore this pain eating away at him? Remedy Entertainment based two games on this premise with Max Payne, and it was fantastic. The problem I see, however, is that growing to fixated on your character's background/emotion puts the game into RPG territory and away from an immersive sim. If it were up to me, I would go the DX1 route and include maybe 2-3 lines about the protagonist's past if it doesn't play a large role in the story.

    LoL in fact im sure many more people empathize with him because Megan was taken, not b/c of some conspiracy, we as players know very little about.
    The hallmark of the Deus Ex series are the conspiracies, not a drawn out search and rescue for a girl. This sentence neatly conveys the inherent problem with HR.

    ...the fact that he came across Megan was rather coincidental.
    HR follows the search for Megan and her team...how is that coincidental when he finds her? Was it surprising that we found her 'freely' helping Namir? Yes, a bit -- but I would expect Jensen to show more emotion than the stone cold robotic grimace on his face. The personality we're forced to deal with once again is out of place. EM should've just started with an emotionless, detached soul from the get-go.

    Sorry for the long multi-quote but there were a wide range of topics that needed addressing.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    Lol romantic neckbeards? Didn't know they existed.


    LoL in fact im sure many more people empathize with him because Megan was taken, not b/c of some conspiracy, we as players know very little about. He followed orders the whole game, the fact that he came across Megan was rather coincidental.
    Him following orders the whole game is also part of what makes him so pathetic and unlikeable. JC smartened up halfway through the game and started thinking for himself. Adam Jensen was chasing ghosts for somebody else straight up until the last five minutes of the game. I'm looking for something between Fox Mulder and Han Solo, not something between a real-life soldier and Sir Gallahad.
    Speed up the accelerating returns, 'cause carbon doesn’t work, I want to evolve and operate at terahertz.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by Shralla
    JC smartened up halfway through the game and started thinking for himself.
    You could make JC disobey orders in the first few levels and the game would react accordingly. JC was always a free thinker.

  20. #45
    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    Deus Ex is more about plot than the character you play as; the protagonist is just a vehicle for your own personality and actions.
    DX1 and DX2 both had characters with backgrounds and personality. Maybe they weren't able to really show it due to the technology. With the different tech, which includes cut scenes and Jensen's emotions, you get to see more of his personality. While it may be true that you can show your personality through the character by the dialogue choices offered, each of these characters already have a background. Example: He is revealed to be sharp, intelligent and perceptive, yet cold, stolid and a bit of a loner. This is in contrast to his brother, who is passionate and empathetic.

    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    Also, a recurring protagonist is not required for the feeling of attachment.
    It's not required, but w/ a wider audience it helps. Also the chances(percentages/math) is higher if the audience sees the same character for each installment as opposed to having to create an scenario were we have to build a new attachment each time. As someone mentioned Mass Effect, its very easy to be attached to your character in games 2 and 3 because of the choices you made in the first game, they had an affect, those were the choices you as shepard made. Same could be said w/ Jensen in DX, you make choices that can be carried over and have an impact on how you made them.



    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    The character's personality underlines the bad writing. Character development failed on all levels, and this really isn't acceptable when it comes to the protagonist.
    This sounds more like a personal preference. You didn't like the troubled Jensen?

    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    EM wants us to care about Jensen and Megan, but gives us no reason to.
    No reason? Is your chest empty? Okay, going in first play through blind. Jensen dies, Megan is thought to be dead after a raid.

    What do you want? A story of their life beforehand? In this case your jumping right into the action. Not all narratives should give a prologue, they put us in a series events from the starting point they wanted us to begin.
    That point happened to be when both of the characters you mentioned seemingly went through a traumatic event.



    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    Their previous relationship is never explored nor is there any resolution between the two.
    No need for this, they were a couple, in the very first few lines of the games, they established that Jensen cares for Megan, how she feels, her work, etc. This is an advanced social study that many gamers may not get, but friendship is the first part love or caring for someone. He supported her, enough, that was an attachment, then throughout the game we find they did indeed have a relationship. This shows why he would want find out of shes really been dead.



    [QUOTE=Adrian Shephard;2038465]EM never shows us what's at stake, why all of the missions even matter. I can assert and show some evidence that Jensen is just the lesser of two evils and that his actions are the result of corporate greed...a claim I don't think EM was aiming for. But that's another root problem of the character -- he isn't a maverick, he doesn't question, and he is too dependent on others. I, the player, am playing as someone who is controlled by someone else (Sarif). In this light, Jensen is marginally better than your typical Call of Duty grunt.[/QOUTE]

    Two main reasons the missions matter other than the specific reasons they carried out. Closing the lose ends up on Megans death slash finding her AND determining why they were attacked randomly by an elite group of mercenaries.

    Jensen does what Sarif asks because he's his employer(who not only saved his life w/ cutting edge augs) in a time were security between large companies/corporations is vital combination to survival of the fittest. They were attacked, they wanted to find out, hell, Jensen was killed, he should wanna know why. Sariff had resources, such as Prichard, who was a jerk that Jensen would prob. only have contact w/ because they worked together.

    There are even points in the game were he questions Sarif. Other than that, they were working together to unravel the plot.

    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    With regards to his past, this was also a wasted opportunity. Yes, from the few clips that we saw, we can conclude that he is internalizing a lot. But why not explore this pain eating away at him?
    Because as mentioned above, we were dropped in specific point were a series of events were happening and were the main focus w/o doing flashbacks or some sort narrative. There were important events taking place for the main character. Your questioning game length, and a completely different plot. Find Megan, find out why we were attacked, who did it? Everything else was extra, and affected game length. They mentioned this in the making video about how hardcore gamers wouldnt mind playing long games but theyre choice was to attract a wider audience, same for most games on time, even film.



    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    The problem I see, however, is that growing to fixated on your character's background/emotion puts the game into RPG territory and away from an immersive sim. If it were up to me, I would go the DX1 route and include maybe 2-3 lines about the protagonist's past if it doesn't play a large role in the story.
    Action/Rpg this is, with a linear story or chain of events.

    They did in fact enlighten us about Jensens past, wasn't necessary but they did, as a side mission to the main plot.



    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    The hallmark of the Deus Ex series are the conspiracies, not a drawn out search and rescue for a girl. This sentence neatly conveys the inherent problem with HR.
    Nothing changed, just the main characters focal point was included. As Jensen dove deeper, they found more out, along w/ Megan's search. Are you asking for one or the other?



    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    HR follows the search for Megan and her team...how is that coincidental when he finds her? Was it surprising that we found her 'freely' helping Namir? Yes, a bit -- but I would expect Jensen to show more emotion than the stone cold robotic grimace on his face.
    .how is that coincidental when he finds her?

    I don't understand this question(the wording), are you asking "how is it that he finds her so easily? as in a coincidence?"

    LoL, I'll have to do some research on this one, haven't played missing link yet.


    I mentioned in another post, that if you read her bio, shes really dedicated to her work, they offered her an opportunity, she took it, or more so the calm darrow, who probably persuaded her enthusiastic mind to work.


    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    Sorry for the long multi-quote but there were a wide range of topics that needed addressing.
    No problem, I'm here to geek out of dx, lets discuss!!!

  21. #46
    I can't remember one characters name except Jensen from HR, that's a bad sign.

    I can remember just about every character from Deus Ex though. Tong, Everett, Gunther, Page. I forget the cyborg chicks name. Anna Nevar! Or somethin.

  22. #47
    Warning: long reply below

    Okay, I was an idiot and started using character and protagonist interchangeably. For simplicity, characters refers to the people in the game (including the protagonist) while protagonist refers to the character you play as.
    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    DX1 and DX2 both had characters with backgrounds and personality. Maybe they weren't able to really show it due to the technology. With the different tech, which includes cut scenes and Jensen's emotions, you get to see more of his personality. While it may be true that you can show your personality through the character by the dialogue choices offered, each of these characters already have a background. Example: He is revealed to be sharp, intelligent and perceptive, yet cold, stolid and a bit of a loner. This is in contrast to his brother, who is passionate and empathetic.
    I think displaying character personality through dialogue and actions has a greater effect and seems more natural than being spoon fed information in a cutscene. I see in another post that you think today’s technology makes a game more immersive…and now you say that it helps with personality, and frankly I think this is flat out wrong. Sure, it can help, but it definitely isn’t necessary. I imagine that if DX had cinematic cutscenes, it wouldn't have had such character depth. DX was successful in differentiating people because the game let you observe them and make your own deductions -- Mousehunt's post goes to show you just how effective this method is. For example: when the player speaks with Gunther Hermann, they can deduce he is a ruthless killing machine, but if you snoop through the computers at UNATCO, you learn that he is actually afraid of being phased out as inferior tech. Furthermore, in Paris you can overhear two MJ12 troopers talking about Gunther crying. As you can see, Gunther is made to look like one-dimensional grunt, but he is a much more complex character. There is no feasible way a developer can show you something like this in a videogame through cutscenes (or anything involving today’s tech) without going the Max Payne 3 route. Today’s advanced technology is there to push video games more into the movie realm, essentially making a game an interactive film. With older gen games like DX1, Half Life, Thief, etc., the focus was on telling a story through dialogue and player observation. It wasn’t necessarily a tech problem back then; it was more of a different approach to storytelling.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "While it may be true that you can show your personality through the character by the dialogue choices offered, each of these characters already have a background". I don't think the player is told about JC or Paul before you meet them. You can figure out that Paul is a caring and compassionate person by his reluctance to use lethal force. The player can deduce JC is a bit brash and more serious during the conversation with the NSF commander at the end of the first level; you also realize that JC is smart because he can hold his own in a political/philosophical debate. However, how JC interacts with the majority of NPC's in the game is up to the player. Even in the non-player controlled conversations, he has a questioning and skeptical nature that mirrors the player's own thoughts and helps advance the story forward. He asks characters for information that the player wants to know...and these aren't only mission specific. In other instances, JC automatically asks/answers based on your previous actions, showing the player that what they do actually shapes JC.

    Square Enix and EM marketed HR with Jensen being at the forefront, not the conspiracies. They made the game about the protagonist, not about the world he lives in (even though the title suggests otherwise). This is in complete contrast to what I think the Deus Ex series is about -- this is why I made my original comment about Deus Ex being more about plot. I'm not suggesting Deus Ex can't have an interesting protagonist, it most definitely should (hell, JC was awesome), but the focus should be on the overarching narrative of conspiracy, not one person's struggle. If done right, you can actually include both into the game, but EM seems to have enough trouble doing just one correctly.

    As someone mentioned Mass Effect, its very easy to be attached to your character in games 2 and 3 because of the choices you made in the first game, they had an affect, those were the choices you as shepard made. Same could be said w/ Jensen in DX, you make choices that can be carried over and have an impact on how you made them.
    The last thing I want is for Deus Ex to become a RPG. Again, I do not think protagonist/character attachment should be an issue if the developers correctly use him/her in their story. You don't want to risk "beating a character to death" i.e. using them so much that the player will grow tired of them. Jensen is different than, say, Gordon Freeman because Jensen has a preset attitude that we can't control. He isn't an observer in the world like Freeman is; for all intents and purposes, we are Gordon. With Jensen, there is a wall between us and him, namely his personality. I do not share his personality and facetiousness so it is much harder for me to connect with him and it makes playing the game tiresome. If Jensen was more inquisitive (as I assume the player should be), if he didn't have that sarcasm, if the developers gave us dialogue options that let us mold who he was, then I would maybe be fine with Jensen coming back. But at that point, there is no good reason why we shouldn't just get another protagonist…one without “those stupid shades”*.

    This sounds more like a personal preference. You didn't like the troubled Jensen?
    Jensen being troubled didn't add any emotion into the story for me. It isn't like Max Payne where I actually pity Max. We can infer based on 1...maybe 2 cutscenes that he is internalizing some things, but EM suggests nothing more. The story is supposed to be emotional and EM wants us to see how Jensen copes with his augs and his new 'life' but we get nothing. This is a personal story drained of all humanity; EM made a protagonist void of all emotion set out across the world to rescue people we don't see but “know” he cares about. He doesn't even flinch when he sees the scientists at the Omega Ranch.

    No reason? Is your chest empty? Okay, going in first play through blind. Jensen dies, Megan is thought to be dead after a raid.
    What do you want? A story of their life beforehand? In this case your jumping right into the action. Not all narratives should give a prologue, they put us in a series events from the starting point they wanted us to begin.
    That point happened to be when both of the characters you mentioned seemingly went through a traumatic event.
    A story of their life before the event of the game would've helped. No, this isn't "jumping right into the action". This story could be given to the player through emails/diaries/characters/etc. You are assuming that the player is dumb and must be presented information in a theatrical way. In-game literature and dialogue do wonders in fleshing out characters and plot.

    So what if Jensen ‘died’ and Megan is believed to be dead? The gangsters I killed in Detroit are also dead. I bet they had kids...maybe their father was their only source of income and now the kids will have to live on the streets. Without knowing this, I don't care about the gangsters, but when you start telling me more information about how things changed as a result of that event, then I start caring. EM did the first part -- they showed us Jensen died -- but they failed at the second part. When we see Jensen die in the prologue, we don’t know him yet; he is just another set of polygons. When we see Megan taken away, we don’t know her personally. Why would the death of a random character elicit emotion from the player? I'm sorry, but I cannot feel sad/pity for a character because I'm simply told to do so.

    No need for this, they were a couple, in the very first few lines of the games, they established that Jensen cares for Megan, how she feels, her work, etc.
    If by "established" you mean shown to us in a non-player controlled event that lasts literally 5 seconds, then yes. EM places so much emphasis on the bond between Jensen and Megan but does nothing to remind the player of it except for a handful of instances, and I’m being overly nice by saying ‘handful’. Again, EM (and you) cannot expect the player to care about someone because they were told to.

    This is an advanced social study that many gamers may not get, but friendship is the first part love or caring for someone. He supported her, enough, that was an attachment, then throughout the game we find they did indeed have a relationship. This shows why he would want find out of shes really been dead.
    There is a lot of personal interpretation going on here which shows the lack of completeness on EM's part. If you are considering Adam's and Megan's friendship as the first stage of love, then why can't you apply the same to Adam and Malik? It seems like Adam has more of a thing with her than with Megan. You are basing this point on your belief of friendship/love, but I can easily assert that this is not the case and there isn’t much you can counter-argue. I recall nothing showing the player of Jensen and Megan's seemingly close relationship after the prologue. Perhaps you can cite some solid instances.

    Two main reasons the missions matter other than the specific reasons they carried out. Closing the lose ends up on Megans death slash finding her AND determining why they were attacked randomly by an elite group of mercenaries.
    You don't get it. You listed the overall goals in the game, but not why the missions mattered. Too many missions in HR are investigative and random: Jensen goes somewhere based on loose evidence and coincidentally finds exactly what he is looking for. Take the FEMA facility...why were the Tyrants even there to begin with? Why doesn't EM explain the government's involvement with mercenaries? And why does Barrett truthfully tell Jensen exactly where to go for his next objective? The answer to these questions is this: it makes the game work the way the writers wanted it to. Jensen is chasing ghosts for the majority of the game. The mission objectives are like the piece of candy at the end of a stick tied to your head that you often see in cartoons. Your always chasing, looking, or doing something in order to advance to the next locale, but you never get any real resolution (until the end, if even...). The missions you do are solely there to open up new missions, and the cycle continues until the writers figure a boss battle is in store, then POOF, another Tyrant shows up without explanation. The unfolding story relies too heavily on luck and coincidence...it's not a natural chain of events.

    Jensen does what Sarif asks because he's his employer(who not only saved his life w/ cutting edge augs) in a time were security between large companies/corporations is vital combination to survival of the fittest. They were attacked, they wanted to find out, hell, Jensen was killed, he should wanna know why. Sariff had resources, such as Prichard, who was a jerk that Jensen would prob. only have contact w/ because they worked together.
    JC was created by MJ12, but that didn't mean he had to follow what they said. Jensen isn't a free thinker and he isn't inquisitive, which impacts how the story unfolds. He never takes control of a conversation and pushes it forward. The best he can do is ask a clarifying question, and the frequency of this makes him look dumb and slow. The only resource Jensen needs is Malik...he should be able to manage without Sarif's leash.

    Because as mentioned above, we were dropped in specific point were a series of events were happening and were the main focus w/o doing flashbacks or some sort narrative. There were important events taking place for the main character. Your questioning game length, and a completely different plot.
    Again, you underestimate the power of non-cutscene based storytelling. Small things add up...it could be as small as a bunch of pills and alcohol all over his apartment, or a co-worker having a quick sit down with him, etc. This has nothing to do with game length and doesn't require a different plot. You may be okay with the status quo, but I, as many others, am not. Maybe you were the 'wide target audience' EM was aiming for.

    Action/Rpg this is, with a linear story or chain of events.
    Deus Ex is an immersive-sim, which by the way is an actual label, not just a name applied to a game someone finds immersive. This is most definitely NOT an action/RPG. It's a FPS with RPG elements. There are plenty of articles on what Deus Ex is classified, so no use in arguing with me on this point. And see this thread for my take on linearity and freedom in Deus Ex. DX was a linear game, yes, but the writing was in such a way that it didn't feel like it. I tried to explain myself the best I could in the posts on the first page.

    They did in fact enlighten us about Jensens past, wasn't necessary but they did, as a side mission to the main plot.
    And this was probably the most interesting part of the game too. They gave us a creation story, though they still didn't go much past this. EM obviously was looking for a player-protagonist connection, but Jensen being shrouded in mystery never helps.

    Nothing changed, just the main characters focal point was included. As Jensen dove deeper, they found more out, along w/ Megan's search. Are you asking for one or the other?
    There was no "human revolution" in the game. The augmentations simply served as a backdrop for the revenge quest that the writing department for some reason thought would be a good idea. The game pooped on everything the first game set up. Revenge quest =/= conspiracy. And the Illuminati references thrown near the end are a slap in the face to any fan of the original game.

    .how is that coincidental when he finds her?

    I don't understand this question(the wording), are you asking "how is it that he finds her so easily? as in a coincidence?"
    I'm saying that the game is built around the premise of Jensen looking for Megan, so I wouldn't go as far as to say that it was a coincidence that Jensen found her. This is like saying it was a coincidence that Clint Eastwood found the gold in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

    Play the original game, DON'T just read the wikia. You'll lose the best part of DX: how the story is told. It really is amazing how much information can be passed to the player without the use of cutscenes.

    *said the kid in Castle Clinton

  23. #48
    Please believe I have a response to your post. I see points that makes me think your a bit confused. LoL

    Good times.

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by Miyavi
    Please believe I have a response to your post. I see points that makes me think your a bit confused. LoL

    Good times.
    Do respond. I'll be more than happy to clarify which points confuse you. Excuse my many digressions, but the lack of direct examples in your previous post leave me having to infer quite a bit.

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