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Thread: Razielim UVC (Underground Vampire City)

Razielim UVC (Underground Vampire City)

  1. #76
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    If you had read Eric's most recent reply up there, and actually read the past couple of pages in general, you would not have made that post. I'll re-post it for you:

    Please do keep comments to each other polite. For the most part this topic has stayed very respectful, I just want to make sure that it stays that way because topics like sexism can be a hot button that people can be passionate about. I don't look to steal anyone's passion, just so long as you're nice about how you present it.
    Doesn't sound to me like he's feeling hurt by any of this. There is nothing here threatening the art team's creativity. Of all the critiques they've had, from the original vampire classes reveal up until now, I'm pretty sure this is one of the lightest, most respectful of the bunch... If someone's politely expressed opinion offends you so, perhaps you need to take a look at what the cause is otherwise than this thread...

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by Lirka_
    It's amazing how a statue can be more classy then this: http://i.imgur.com/7vVBB.jpg
    Sorry, but I couldn't resist :
    http://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-co...-San-Diego.gif
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  3. #78
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    If someone's politely expressed opinion offends you so, perhaps you need to take a look at what the cause is otherwise than this thread...
    I disagree on this with you. Just because someone makes an accusation in a polite way, doesn't make it ok...
    Last edited by ParadoxicalOmen; 26th Apr 2014 at 19:17.

  4. #79
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    Except there is no accusation. No-one said, hey I think Psyonix is just being sexist. Instead, this was a discussion on what the artwork evokes and there's nothing wrong with giving your opinion on that. In fact, going back to Ruevergne's first post on this:

    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    One thing that I feel is lacking in the LOK game series is a balance between the number of female main characters and male main characters. I often wished that more female main characters had been introduced to balance things out. When Blood Omen 2 came out I felt this gender imbalance moved into more overt sexism. Female characters and female enemy combatants were quite heavily sexualised and, in my opinion, objectified. Though I think the design for the blood fountain in the underground city is aesthetically pleasing, my preference would be to see Nosgoth's makers steering away from a return to BO2's sexualised content. I believe this would introduce sexist elements into the game.
    Instead of any accusation of sexism here on Psyonix's part, Ruevergne is stating he/she simply doesn't want to see it lead to anything overtly sexualized introduced. This can lead to potentially a return to the extremes of BO2, and perhaps even you can say a rise of less mature players playing making undo comments, both in the game and on the forum.

    The point is the company isn't being accused of being sexist by these statements. A concern was expressed and opinions on the artwork were given. Psyonix would want to hear opinions on the artwork, especially since the artwork has not yet been implemented into the game (and as with the Raziel statue, is actually subject to change). That's very much what Psyonix has been after on these boards since the start -- fan input. They've done an excellent job of listening to the fanbase to try and improve both game mechanics, and the aesthetic world of the game for us, the fans/players.

  5. #80
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    (And just a stray observation: If one looks at a kneeling woman, topless or otherwise, and immediately thinks of sex...Well, I'd say that's a personal issue. Just because your own viewpoint immediately jumps to "Gee, that subservient woman sure turns me on!" doesn't mean the artists or other developers had sexist or sexualizing intent.)
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    I appreciate with your playable characters that you have not sexualised them and I am not suggesting that you are intending to sexualise her, but I did infer sexualisation, intentional or otherwise.
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    I should, at this juncture, point out that I do fully acknowledge that sexualisation was the not the artist’s (artists’?) intent. I’m talking now solely about inference, not implication.
    I hope these extracts clarify my position.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    OK, fair enough. I did say earlier that I'd like to see more mostly nude statues of Raziel in the classical Greek fashion (mostly due to my own artistic preference, ha). That should take care of any potential balance problems, in my view.
    Originally Posted by Psyonix_Eric
    This is not an attempt at sexualizing one or the other (or both), especially given how we've avoided doing so with our main characters, but merely a nod to the stylistic approaches that many of the classical Greek sculptors took to displaying beauty in both men and women. Our female here is not intended to be subservient in any way, and in fact our approach was far from that in that she is holding that which is most precious to her people. She is intended to be attractive, just as the Raziel statue is meant to be, but not in the sexualized sense - more in the "this is a thing of beauty, and we as the Razielim are the most beautiful of the clans".
    It would be interesting to see how this aesthetic could be applied to other potential areas. What would your opinions be on, for example: the Turelim, obsessed with strength and physique, creating warrior statues in wrestling clinches? Zephonim statues akin dark and twisted versions of Le Penseur?

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    I think that that's a problematic way of looking at it, though, since if we follow that train of thought to its logical conclusion the only one in Nosgoth who is not empowered through serving a higher authority is Kain, and even he is subject to the Wheel and fate in general. These characters should be regarded as more than simply their subservience. Serving a higher authority is not necessarily a bad thing if done with consent, as it appears that she has done. Indeed, the vampire civilization for the most part followed "might makes right" ideals, particularly in regard to humans, and from a social science perspective this should be much more problematic than the Priestess. However, while it can be fun and interesting to discuss these implications philosophically, I do not think that these implications mean that the games should have to be changed to be more accommodating.
    I completely agree that the characters should not be regarded as just subservient. All I meant was that subservience was an attribute that I inferred and that I considered relevant to the discussion. Empowerment and servitude go hand in hand here, but I do see the intended empowerment relationship that you and Eric have spoken about.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    So, in short, you have to take the good and sift out the bizarre.
    The bizarre.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Cool I'm glad we were able to reach a common understanding.
    Likewise.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    The term was originally coined to describe addressing women, but it can easily apply to anyone.
    Gotcha. The dictionaries are slow to keep up with modern slang, but I found one that elaborates on that.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    It's much more important and relevant that you are a passionate LoK fan who wants to see this game be as good as it possibly can be than what your gender is. But this is the internet, so I have no guarantee that you're even human! I could be a dog, for all you know
    Yep. I’m looking forward to playing it when I can buy/make a better computer.

    I have often wondered what strange and devious activities canines get up to in their free time. Mine spends a lot of his time searching under my cabinet for things that are not there, but he is beginning to show some signs of intelligence.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    To be clear, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing to suggest forced servitude in the case of the Priestess or the cult in general. The Wiki says that the members of the cult "worshiped the vampires of Kain's empire as if they were gods." Even the humans in the Citadel who weren't part of the cult still knelt before Raziel; there was nothing forced about it.
    I’d say this backs you up: “In centuries to come, Clan Zephonim will come to make use of their mental powers to re-affirm the sect of Vampire-worshipping Humans' waning faith”. The future waning faith after the era of the Nosgoth game suggests they had the free will to choose worship in the first place.

    Originally Posted by Lirka_
    In no way is it objectification in my opinion.
    Now the females in BO2.... yeah... those were pretty bad.
    It's amazing how a statue can be more classy then this: http://i.imgur.com/7vVBB.jpg
    I remember that scene well… I remember thinking (in my grandmother’s voice), “they’ll catch their death of cold”... and “…why?”.

    Originally Posted by RainaAudron
    Yes, the block in the Chapel does not have an image of the Priestess on it.
    Agreed, the establishment of the Rahabim likely predates her original intended life within the game canon and the artwork differs. I do like the pointers to the fact the humans follow a variety of different religions. There’s an interesting stain glass window at the top of Nupraptor’s fortress in SR1 that seems colourfully out of place that, for me, makes a nice reminder of Nosgoth’s past vitality.

    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    Instead of any accusation of sexism here on Psyonix's part, Ruevergne is stating he/she simply doesn't want to see it lead to anything overtly sexualized introduced. This can lead to potentially a return to the extremes of BO2, and perhaps even you can say a rise of less mature players playing making undo comments, both in the game and on the forum.
    This is a good summation of the concerns I wanted to express. I would just like to add that I’m not even completely opposed to all sexual imagery, just certain sexist elements that may result. In fact, even sexism has a place in story telling media if it is an important aspect of the character(s) whose story/stories is/are being told.
    Last edited by Ruevergne; 26th Apr 2014 at 23:45. Reason: Forgot part of response.

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    It would be interesting to see how this aesthetic could be applied to other potential areas. What would your opinions be on, for example: the Turelim, obsessed with strength and physique, creating warrior statues in wrestling clinches? Zephonim statues akin dark and twisted versions of Le Penseur?
    I think that one stark difference between the traditional Greek-style athletic statues and any Turelim statues must be the presence of facial expression. Classical Greek statuary, although obsessed with perfecting the details of musculature and portraying their tension or relaxation in any pose, always kept the faces serenely blank of emotion (Razielim statues should be similarly serene). For example, check out the face of the Discobolus/Discus Thrower. Even as the rest of his body is powerfully tensed and in the middle of its highly focused and coordinated swing to release the heavy discus, his face is totally blank. We don't have the original c. 460 BCE bronze anymore, unfortunately, but all of the Roman reductions and later copies and replicas basically have the same facial expression:

    http://romanolax.files.wordpress.com...1165.jpg?w=768

    I think that statues of the Turelim must portray realistic ferocity and emotion in their facial musculature. Bared fangs, narrowed eyes, veins popping out, bulging cords in their necks, etc.

    Rather than the smooth, polished look of classical antiquity, Dumahim statues should be rougher and less finished in order to evoke a less specialized knowledge of stonecrafting, since they are primarily warriors, not artists. The statue of Dumah in the Ruined City in SR1 and the giant horns over the main gate conveyed this kind of blockiness, although that was more due to graphical limitations, haha. We see plenty of rather advanced stained glass work in the Ruined City, but not a whole lot of advanced stone statuary.
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/D...umahslair2.PNG


    I think it could be interesting for the Rahabim to have very primitive statuary. Smooth enough, but in very simple positions. Seated like Egyptian gods or standing with one foot forward like the early Kouros stage of early Greek statuary. Something about the Rahabim to me evokes that Kouros look. This could also go with mosaics like those in Assyria, Persia, etc.
    http://www.molon.de/galleries/Greece...oad%20belt.jpg
    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/babyl...rs-6895097.jpg

    Zephonim should have more abstract, disturbing statues that reflect their occult and twisted psychological leanings. Rather than striving to imitate life, like the other clans do/would do, the Zephonim should strive to imitate how they see life in their art. Images of pain and unsettling contortions. Images that evoke fear and discomfort. The kind of stuff that you look at and it makes you uncomfortable but you can't put your finger on exactly why.

    Since Melchahim are the weakest and least developed clan, they could possibly not have developed much statuary at all. They have wall reliefs and carvings like the one in the Necropolis showing Melchiah, but I don't know whatt kind of statuary they'd have, if any. Their artwork looks etched directly into the stone rather than made of inlaid materials.
    http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...hiah_Mural.PNG

    Aevum, if there's stuff in the games that contradicts the art styles I'm describing here, please by all means correct me; these are just my general feelings of what they'd be like based on what I remember and how they feel to me.




    I’d say this backs you up: “In centuries to come, Clan Zephonim will come to make use of their mental powers to re-affirm the sect of Vampire-worshipping Humans' waning faith”. The future waning faith after the era of the Nosgoth game suggests they had the free will to choose worship in the first place.
    Indeed.



    I remember that scene well… I remember thinking (in my grandmother’s voice), “they’ll catch their death of cold”... and “…why?”.
    Yup, it was actually comical in its ridiculousness. Like the Sarafan Lord had bondage slaves from a bad industrial music video as his personal guard... ugh.


    This is a good summation of the concerns I wanted to express. I would just like to add that I’m not even completely opposed to all sexual imagery, just certain sexist elements that may result. In fact, even sexism has a place in story telling media if it is an important aspect of the character(s) whose story/stories is/are being told.
    Exactly. True Detective, for example, got a lot of heat for being so sexist in its portrayal of female characters, but the whole point of its sexism was to show how badly the characters treated women and how messed up their views regarding women were.
    Last edited by Hashakgik888; 27th Apr 2014 at 12:33.

  7. #82
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    Agreed, the establishment of the Rahabim likely predates her original intended life within the game canon and the artwork differs. I do like the pointers to the fact the humans follow a variety of different religions.
    Well, the existing lore does suggest the Priestess had a particularly long life and gives no indication of when she was born, but that particular depiction in the chapel has been confirmed to just be an ordinary woman. An interesting facet to be aware of though is that the chapel is not actually Rahabim territory - it goes with the Tomb of the Sarafan on the other side, so all of the those features are actually preserved Sarafan stuff (hence the Vorador stained glass)... and that would probably push it beyond the lifetime of the Priestess anyway.
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  8. #83
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    Originally Posted by PencileyePirate
    Actually, it has been confirmed by Daniel Cabuco that the woman pictured in the chapel is not the Priestess. It wouldn't make sense for a vampire-worshiping sect to be memorialized in Sarafan ruins, anyhow.
    That's exactly what Baz said, heh.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  9. #84
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    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    That's exactly what Baz said, heh.
    indeed it was
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  10. #85
    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    That's exactly what Baz said, heh.
    Oops, I misread that pretty badly. Or rather ... I apparently skimmed over the key sentence and onto the bit about territory.

  11. #86
    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    I think that one stark difference between the traditional Greek-style athletic statues and any Turelim statues must be the presence of facial expression. Classical Greek statuary, although obsessed with perfecting the details of musculature and portraying their tension or relaxation in any pose, always kept the faces serenely blank of emotion (Razielim statues should be similarly serene).
    Interesting… I did not know about this. You’re right, this suits the portrayal of the Razielim well.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    I think that statues of the Turelim must portray realistic ferocity and emotion in their facial musculature. Bared fangs, narrowed eyes, veins popping out, bulging cords in their necks, etc.
    I agree and I think it should centre on ego and the Turelim obsession with strength. After all, Turel, like Dumah - “Not even Kain is my equal”, speaks very egotistically – “I have become a god”… “Greater even than Kain!”

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Rather than the smooth, polished look of classical antiquity, Dumahim statues should be rougher and less finished in order to evoke a less specialized knowledge of stonecrafting, since they are primarily warriors, not artists. The statue of Dumah in the Ruined City in SR1 and the giant horns over the main gate conveyed this kind of blockiness, although that was more due to graphical limitations, haha. We see plenty of rather advanced stained glass work in the Ruined City, but not a whole lot of advanced stone statuary.
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/D...umahslair2.PNG
    All three statues in the Dumahim city are recognisably of Dumah himself. I do wonder whether they are scaled up and retextured versions of Dumah’s 3D model. I’d disagree with you on this one. Although the statues are not very detailed, they do have other examples of artistic ability present: the stain glass windows you mentioned; architectural features, such as the Moorish style arches; and patterned carpets. There is also the sculpted or carved obelisk and its inscriptions as well as patterns carved into some of the walls. However, if the ruined city location was to be reused for a mission style level, then the developers might prefer to limit the alterations to this known location. If this is the case then more fragile forms of art could be considered, such as flammable tapestries.

    Also, unlike the other clans the Dumahim do not evoke Greek classical styles for me. Oddly enough, their hunter/warrior personas being developed here make me think of more eastern influences. I’m not thinking along the lines of style, but more the drama or attitude:
    http://cdn.piccolor.com/wp-content/u...1/samurai2.jpg
    http://site.icanvasart.com/LargeArtImage/1614.jpg
    http://slodive.com/wp-content/upload...rai/img010.jpg
    There are better pictures for what I mean, but I can’t find them and my books are all in storage at the moment.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    I think it could be interesting for the Rahabim to have very primitive statuary. Smooth enough, but in very simple positions. Seated like Egyptian gods or standing with one foot forward like the early Kouros stage of early Greek statuary. Something about the Rahabim to me evokes that Kouros look. This could also go with mosaics like those in Assyria, Persia, etc.
    http://www.molon.de/galleries/Greece...oad%20belt.jpg
    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/babyl...rs-6895097.jpg
    The picture (only the first link works) is nice and I especially like the idea of tiles. What about mosaics?

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Zephonim should have more abstract, disturbing statues that reflect their occult and twisted psychological leanings. Rather than striving to imitate life, like the other clans do/would do, the Zephonim should strive to imitate how they see life in their art. Images of pain and unsettling contortions. Images that evoke fear and discomfort. The kind of stuff that you look at and it makes you uncomfortable but you can't put your finger on exactly why.
    Definitely what I had in mind.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Since Melchahim are the weakest and least developed clan, they could possibly not have developed much statuary at all. They have wall reliefs and carvings like the one in the Necropolis showing Melchiah, but I don't know whatt kind of statuary they'd have, if any. Their artwork looks etched directly into the stone rather than made of inlaid materials.
    http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...hiah_Mural.PNG
    I agree. Most of their architecture seems to be purely functional in the game, but it would be nice to see them expand upon their wall carvings. Perhaps, ashamed by their frailty and lack of beauty, they would not portray themselves at all, but concentrate on other forms of art, e.g. patterns and scripts.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Yup, it was actually comical in its ridiculousness. Like the Sarafan Lord had bondage slaves from a bad industrial music video as his personal guard... ugh.
    They probably consider crossbow assaults in the mountains to be a step up from their day job.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Exactly. True Detective, for example, got a lot of heat for being so sexist in its portrayal of female characters, but the whole point of its sexism was to show how badly the characters treated women and how messed up their views regarding women were.
    I don’t think that one has reached the UK yet. I don’t watch a lot of television, but maybe I’ll take a look.

  12. #87
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne


    All three statues in the Dumahim city are recognisably of Dumah himself. I do wonder whether they are scaled up and retextured versions of Dumah’s 3D model. I’d disagree with you on this one. Although the statues are not very detailed, they do have other examples of artistic ability present: the stain glass windows you mentioned; architectural features, such as the Moorish style arches; and patterned carpets. There is also the sculpted or carved obelisk and its inscriptions as well as patterns carved into some of the walls. However, if the ruined city location was to be reused for a mission style level, then the developers might prefer to limit the alterations to this known location. If this is the case then more fragile forms of art could be considered, such as flammable tapestries.

    Also, unlike the other clans the Dumahim do not evoke Greek classical styles for me. Oddly enough, their hunter/warrior personas being developed here make me think of more eastern influences. I’m not thinking along the lines of style, but more the drama or attitude:
    http://cdn.piccolor.com/wp-content/u...1/samurai2.jpg
    http://site.icanvasart.com/LargeArtImage/1614.jpg
    http://slodive.com/wp-content/upload...rai/img010.jpg
    There are better pictures for what I mean, but I can’t find them and my books are all in storage at the moment.
    The Dumahim's style has repeatedly been described as "pan-Asiatic" by Daniel Cabuco, so this would work. I also do not see a Greek influence for them. I could see a scenario in which the Dumahim actually hired artisans from other clans to make their art for them or simply used human slaves. As obsessed with combat as they were, like the Spartans, they may not have bothered to learn much about arts and crafts. The huge ego of the Dumahim, though, would have demanded beautiful art glorifying the clan, even if they didn't know how to make it themselves.


    The picture (only the first link works) is nice and I especially like the idea of tiles. What about mosaics?
    Oops, I guess that's what I get for hotlinking... here's a Kouros picture that works. It was an early style of Aegean statuary that just depicted male forms standing with one foot forward (kouros means "boy"). They showed signs of the emphasis on musculature that was to come later, but other than that there's not much in common with classical statuary. I just think that the cobra-hooded Rahabim would look awesome depicted that way.
    http://lazarus.uoregon.edu/~arthist/.../ny_kouros.gif
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ET_32.11.1.jpg


    I don’t think that one has reached the UK yet. I don’t watch a lot of television, but maybe I’ll take a look.
    It's pretty excellent. If a noir mystery with slight Lovecraftian elements and a pervasive sense of unease sounds interesting to you, you'll love it. It's HBO, so it might not be that easy to find yet.

  13. #88
    Daniel mentioned here http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/view...ngineers#p1936 that the Turelim were engineers, so I imagine they'd have some pretty good tools for making statues. Perhaps there'd be a lot of metalwork. I'd also expect their territory to have quite a bit of machinery. Water was supposed to have been used to defeat Turel in Defiance, so what I expect would have been going on there is that they'd capitalized on the heat from the smoke stacks to produce steam operated machinery. It would be at a similar level of tech to the lighthouse which was also operated by the Turelim.

    For the Zephonim, I imagine a lot of the art would resemble stuff from H R Giger and Clive Barker. The Zephonim in Nosgoth remind me a lot of the Hellraiser movies, which I think is very fitting for them.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  14. #89
    Originally Posted by Bazielim
    Well, the existing lore does suggest the Priestess had a particularly long life and gives no indication of when she was born, but that particular depiction in the chapel has been confirmed to just be an ordinary woman. An interesting facet to be aware of though is that the chapel is not actually Rahabim territory - it goes with the Tomb of the Sarafan on the other side, so all of the those features are actually preserved Sarafan stuff (hence the Vorador stained glass)... and that would probably push it beyond the lifetime of the Priestess anyway.
    Ah yes, I see what you mean about the long life. Since her full lifespan is not elaborated on, it is possible that her life could be made to date back to the time before the Sarafan crusades finished. I think this is unlikely though and I wouldn’t be keen on the idea. Concerning the abbey, I wonder whether its drowning “by the deluge spilling from this wounded land” might be elaborated upon. There seems to be a lot of call for mission based matches in Nosgoth. Dumah’s downfall is an obvious choice, but the story of how the Rahabim came to inhabit (conquer? flee to? migrate to?) the abbey and how the Zephonim came to conquer the cathedral could be interesting.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    The Dumahim's style has repeatedly been described as "pan-Asiatic" by Daniel Cabuco, so this would work. I also do not see a Greek influence for them. I could see a scenario in which the Dumahim actually hired artisans from other clans to make their art for them or simply used human slaves. As obsessed with combat as they were, like the Spartans, they may not have bothered to learn much about arts and crafts. The huge ego of the Dumahim, though, would have demanded beautiful art glorifying the clan, even if they didn't know how to make it themselves.
    True, they would necessarily need to make it for themselves, but immortals do have a lot of time on their hands. Then again, I know people who could focus solely on football for all eternity, so I take your point. I’d prefer the idea of slaves, as hired artisans would, at least in part, follow their own styles. Still haven’t found the pictures I’m thinking of… probably won’t… but this one has some nice drama to it:
    http://www.warriorcrafts.com/sword%2...the%20snow.JPG

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Oops, I guess that's what I get for hotlinking... here's a Kouros picture that works. It was an early style of Aegean statuary that just depicted male forms standing with one foot forward (kouros means "boy"). They showed signs of the emphasis on musculature that was to come later, but other than that there's not much in common with classical statuary. I just think that the cobra-hooded Rahabim would look awesome depicted that way.
    Definitely; there’s something about the simplicity of poise that suits them quite well, since Rahab’s ego was implied to revolve more around religious deference for Kain. The statue’s would show the form of Kain’s creations, but not indulge overly in vanity, or pride. I still like the idea of mosaics too… I just like mosaics… somebody should use them and it fits their previously seen vistas well.

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    It's pretty excellent. If a noir mystery with slight Lovecraftian elements and a pervasive sense of unease sounds interesting to you, you'll love it. It's HBO, so it might not be that easy to find yet.
    A pervasive sense of unease sounds intriguing, but I regret that I have not yet read any H P Lovecraft.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Daniel mentioned here http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/view...ngineers#p1936 that the Turelim were engineers, so I imagine they'd have some pretty good tools for making statues. Perhaps there'd be a lot of metalwork. I'd also expect their territory to have quite a bit of machinery. Water was supposed to have been used to defeat Turel in Defiance, so what I expect would have been going on there is that they'd capitalized on the heat from the smoke stacks to produce steam operated machinery. It would be at a similar level of tech to the lighthouse which was also operated by the Turelim.
    Well remembered and it would give things a distinctive character. Perhaps cast iron or cast bronze statues would work well.
    Perhaps:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ort_Center.JPG
    Or, *snicker*:
    http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attra...wrestling1.jpg
    Or perhaps not…

    To defeat Turel in defiance?

    I always thought the lighthouse area was originally under human control. It wouldn’t make a lot of sense for them to construct the lighthouse to allow the sunlight glyph to be released, but it would make sense for them to annex and control the area.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    For the Zephonim, I imagine a lot of the art would resemble stuff from H R Giger and Clive Barker. The Zephonim in Nosgoth remind me a lot of the Hellraiser movies, which I think is very fitting for them.
    I’ve never been much of a fan of Clive Barker’s art, but I can see that some elements of it would fit. A lot of elements of Giger fit very well indeed. I think the art would have to be relevant though… not too much in the way of confusing abstraction. The Zephonim have been shown to be sadistic, but I’m not sure the masochistic element of Pinhead fits very well. Their self-torture was perceived as a way to force their own evolution and, as insane as they were, I suspect they had more important agendas than self-torture for masochism's sake.

    Can I get that word uncensored? It has detected my word as being something it isn't.
    Last edited by Ruevergne; 30th Apr 2014 at 23:00. Reason: Good suggestion for replacing word triggering Scunthorpe problem.

  15. #90
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    Ah yes, I see what you mean about the long life. Since her full lifespan is not elaborated on, it is possible that her life could be made to date back to the time before the Sarafan crusades finished. I think this is unlikely though and I wouldn’t be keen on the idea.
    For clarification, I'm not suggesting that she was around at the time of the Sarafan crusades, but that that both the cut dialogue from SR1 and the SR1 comic suggest the Priestess had a longer lifespan than an ordinary human and it could be interpreted that the same Priestess was around in the early Soul Reaver era before Raziel's execution.

    The Sarafan thing arose because of the original (we're talking years back) misinterpretation of the image on the block in the chapel (a Sarafan area) as that of the Priestess. Not only is that image now confirmed to not be her, but such an early origin would seem to be pushing it too far for my mind as well. Especially in regards to her fanaticism which would suggest to me that the absolute earliest she could be around was in the "hopeless holy war" at the very start of the Soul Reaver era.

    I'll PM you about the censorship issue.
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  16. #91
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    To defeat Turel in defiance?
    Ah, sorry. I meant SR1.

    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    I’ve never been much of a fan of Clive Barker’s art, but I can see that some elements of it would fit. A lot of elements of Giger fit very well indeed. I think the art would have to be relevant though… not too much in the way of confusing abstraction. The Zephonim have been shown to be sadistic, but I’m not sure the masochistic element of Pinhead fits very well. Their self-torture was perceived as a way to force their own evolution and, as insane as they were, I suspect they had more important agendas than self-torture for masochism's sake..
    Not for it's own sake, but using that sort of imagery in their artwork, would surely inspire fear in any human or rival clan on their territory. I mean for them, it's a means to an end, which is where they differ from the creatures in Hellraiser.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 30th Apr 2014 at 08:37.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  17. #92
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    Definitely; there’s something about the simplicity of poise that suits them quite well, since Rahab’s ego was implied to revolve more around religious deference for Kain. The statue’s would show the form of Kain’s creations, but not indulge overly in vanity, or pride. I still like the idea of mosaics too… I just like mosaics… somebody should use them and it fits their previously seen vistas well.
    Do you mean the tile-based mosaics from Assyria that I posted earlier or more Roman-style mosaics with small stone squares? I think the tile-based kind might be more appropriate than anything Roman-style since we've seen Asian influences but not that many Roman previously.

  18. #93
    Originally Posted by Bazielim
    For clarification, I'm not suggesting that she was around at the time of the Sarafan crusades, but that that both the cut dialogue from SR1 and the SR1 comic suggest the Priestess had a longer lifespan than an ordinary human and it could be interpreted that the same Priestess was around in the early Soul Reaver era before Raziel's execution.

    The Sarafan thing arose because of the original (we're talking years back) misinterpretation of the image on the block in the chapel (a Sarafan area) as that of the Priestess. Not only is that image now confirmed to not be her, but such an early origin would seem to be pushing it too far for my mind as well. Especially in regards to her fanaticism which would suggest to me that the absolute earliest she could be around was in the "hopeless holy war" at the very start of the Soul Reaver era.
    I thought that’s what you meant, but I wasn’t sure.

    Thanks for the censor/smilie information… it looks ungainly, but I’ve solved it.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Ah, sorry. I meant SR1.

    Not for it's own sake, but using that sort of imagery in their artwork, would surely inspire fear in any human or rival clan on their territory. I mean for them, it's a means to an end, which is where they differ from the creatures in Hellraiser.
    Ah, in the original premise for the battle. I see.

    Got you. Inspiring fear or unease is a must for the Zephonim

    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    Do you mean the tile-based mosaics from Assyria that I posted earlier or more Roman-style mosaics with small stone squares? I think the tile-based kind might be more appropriate than anything Roman-style since we've seen Asian influences but not that many Roman previously.
    I personally prefer the smaller, monochrome tiles that make up pictures or patterns, but I like both and don’t see any reason why we couldn’t have both.

  19. #94
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    I personally prefer the smaller, monochrome tiles that make up pictures or patterns, but I like both and don’t see any reason why we couldn’t have both.
    I love tile mosaics, too. I'm not opposed to them either, by any means, but they'd have to have a clear cultural theme that fits in with the rest of the respective clan's feel, I think.

  20. #95
    Originally Posted by Hashakgik888
    I love tile mosaics, too. I'm not opposed to them either, by any means, but they'd have to have a clear cultural theme that fits in with the rest of the respective clan's feel, I think.
    Absolutely. One advantage with the Rahabim, I think, is that their artisanry is not elaborated on and so their environments could relate a broad range of skills.

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