Thread: SARIF INDUSTRIES - Human Augmentation & Tech (Real Life)-New: First Head Transplant

SARIF INDUSTRIES - Human Augmentation & Tech (Real Life)-New: First Head Transplant

  1. #251
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    Originally Posted by Kvltism
    But I can see where K^2 is coming from too.
    I think we can all see where he's coming from... but sometimes the way he communicates is very rude and there's no excuse for that.
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  2. #252
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    Originally Posted by MyImmortal
    K^2, your posts don't make a lot of sense because you write like everyone has a problem, and they don't. It's just you and a few others, perhaps. I think Kyle does a great job, and so do my fellow moderators.
    I'm not saying everyone will have problems with it. But some people will. Posting something that will alienate a small portion of the user base while providing nothing useful to the rest is a waste. It is unfortunate you cannot accept that when you personally have not been affected.

  3. #253
    Originally Posted by K^2
    MI, the real problem is that there is a big split between EM and community. People who are seen as somebody who should be supporting community, like Coyotegrey and the mods, are still pushing EM's agenda. I know the mods aren't doing that because they are told to, but that's how it will be taken by a lot of people.

    And yes, Coyotegrey is actually at the employ of the EM, but community manager should at least pretend that he cares more about community than his employer. That's how you get a community you can interact with, and get something useful out of it for the company.
    I can think of 3 instances in which EM responded to community requests in terms of communication/marketing. The Sarif IND website being one of them. JJB Podcasts. Gameplay footage.

    So if you could, in the clearest terms possible, state what it is you think this forum wants in terms of communication with the Eidos Montreal.
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  4. #254
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    Originally Posted by K^2
    I'm not saying everyone will have problems with it. But some people will. Posting something that will alienate a small portion of the user base while providing nothing useful to the rest is a waste. It is unfortunate you cannot accept that when you personally have not been affected.
    Perhaps some people will have problems But when you post the way you do, so rudely, it's wrong.
    That is what I can't accept.
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  5. #255
    Originally Posted by ArcR
    Gameplay footage.
    You're drawing a long bow there. The bulk of the requests made to EM were for PC footage; they haven't even bothered offering so much as a PC screenshot.

  6. #256
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    Originally Posted by ArcR
    I can think of 3 instances in which EM responded to community requests in terms of communication/marketing. The Sarif IND website being one of them. JJB Podcasts. Gameplay footage.

    So if you could, in the clearest terms possible, state what it is you think this forum wants in terms of communication with the Eidos Montreal.
    Reaction vs interaction. Communication involves interaction.
    Originally Posted by MyImmortal
    Perhaps some people will have problems But when you post the way you do, so rudely, it's wrong.
    There is a difference between being rude and avoiding formal politeness. My earlier response to Coyotegrey was rude, but only because I was responding to a rude post. The rest is simply direct statements with no formal curtseys.

  7. #257
    Originally Posted by Kvltism
    You're drawing a long bow there. The bulk of the requests made to EM were for PC footage; they haven't even bothered offering so much as a PC screenshot.
    Negative... When they released the first CGI trailer we said "awesome". They then released a second CGI trailer and we called BS and said "it ain't gameplay". Then they release a gameplay trailer. EM went on tour with CGI trailers & game demos and we remarked that all the game demos presented were on console. Then the bulk of our request became PC footage and/or demo.

    EDIT: I guess my post underscores your point K^2. However the podcasts and the CM popping on to answer questions are the points of interaction. I imagine the chose podcasts to interact in a controlled environment as well as to reach more people.

    Let me narrow it down: what level of interaction are you expecting between EM and the forum? What methods?
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  8. #258
    Originally Posted by ArcR
    ...Then the bulk of our request became PC footage and/or demo.
    And that's been the situation for... what, a good 6 months or so?

    I should have put my post into context. When the forum was approached directly to see what we wanted, it was almost unanimous. PC footage and screenshots. Last word I saw on the matter from Kyle was that we're going to have to wait. Either the marketing plan isn't flexible, or the PC build isn't ready to show: flip a coin.

  9. #259
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    Originally Posted by ArcR
    EDIT: I guess my post underscores your point K^2. However the podcasts and the CM popping on to answer questions are the points of interaction. I imagine the chose podcasts to interact in a controlled environment as well as to reach more people.
    Yes, I would count JJB's podcasts as interaction. Unfortunately, most of it is a little too late. We can now interact to find out more about the game, but not actually influence design choices. Had they set up the podcasts two years ago, we'd be having a very different discussion.

    There is also a problem of forum impact being limited. It's nice that they are actually taking questions from the forum for once, but it is not an effective use of the medium. Podcasts should run along with more direct forum interaction, ideally.

  10. #260
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    Originally Posted by K^2
    My earlier response to Coyotegrey was rude, but only because I was responding to a rude post.
    Kyle's post was not rude.
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  11. #261
    Yeah about 6 months. It was glossed over at the Picus News Desk but there was an interview that Anfossi gave. Good interview and lots of detail but it was in French. If I knew how I would subtitle it and resubmit it. After demoing to the press he states that a few *bugs* surfaced during the console demo but the got a feel for the game anyways. I'd say that their current build isn't ready for a demo. 1 Debug 2 Polish 3 Marketing Blitz 4 Demo 5 Release.

    Originally Posted by K^2
    We can now interact to find out more about the game, but not actually influence design choices.
    We've isolated the heart of the matter. BBL
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  12. #262
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    Giving someone a link defining "other" is rude. It's part of basic language. Treating a person as if he does not know what it means is very rude.

  13. #263
    Originally Posted by Trainwreck
    EM's treatment of this forum and the DX community is abominable.
    No it isn't. Bioware banning accounts with even highly tempered criticism is abominable. There's a greater degree of freedom to criticise and complain on this forum than almost all official forums that I've visited. Furthermore there have been dozens, upon dozens of interviews, screenshots, videos, previews and a more frequently-than-weekly podcast that addresses questions from the community. That last addition is something few developers (and none which I can think of immediately) even do. For six months prior to the release of Human Revolution a discerning follower of information already knows essentially how the first three hours play out in great depth, a lot of the augmentations, most weapons, several prominent characters and organisations, the gameplay mechanics, a general estimation of the difficulty of the game from previews, the formulation and evolution of the art design and the design process. And Kyle has already alluded to PC footage being released at some point before release in a previous thread. That's far more than most people know about a game prior to release, let alone six months beforehand.

    Also citing Valve is a complicated example. While Portal 2's ARG is genuinely exceptional, brilliant and I love Valve and their games, they seldom respond to far more pressing community questions and far more reasonable demands (not change x from people who've never experienced the implementation of x), like saying when they'll even speak about speaking about on Episode Three/Half-Life 3 or announcing Left 4 Dead 2 (which also came with a pre-order exclusive weapon) when no one wanted it. Of course when people actually... you know, played it, it turned out to be an excellent and worthy addition. Also there's the implication that Eidos-Montreal aren't attempting to generate word of mouth when they have with the CGI trailer of last year and now this viral campaign (which so far develops an incredible atmosphere and immersion into HR's universe) and another four months of marketing. If you're distressed it's not up to the structural ingenuity or sophistication of Portal 2 then prepare for perpetual disappointment because this is a truly rare occurrence than only Valve can really do with Steam and its integration and their connections to independent developers.
    ...a million bureaucrats are diligently plotting death and some of them even know it.
    -Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow.

  14. #264
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    Valve is not great about communication, but they tend to evolve their games, rather than throw everything out and start from scratch, which is what's happening here, and which is when communication is critical. Again, I'd point you to Harvey Smith's comments during post-mortem.

    I also don't see reason to praise this forum for given freedoms if they stem from basic neglect.

  15. #265
    Originally Posted by K^2
    ...
    The entirety of the criticism I read from you is based in either assumption or interpretation, there is no third category. It will be nothing more than that until you actually play the game. Valve don't change their single-player games based on forum speculation but playtester-feedback which they do rigorously and Eidos-Montreal seem to have done by actually hiring Deus Ex fans such as ourselves to be part of evaluating the game. Just because they don't change the game to be congruent to your ideal by addressing what ultimately amount to trivial but not fundamental grievances is completely different from neglecting the community but you assume the worst outcome or motivation in virtually everything that occurs here.

    It's getting to a point where I don't even understand how you even legitimately enjoyed the first Deus Ex.
    ...a million bureaucrats are diligently plotting death and some of them even know it.
    -Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow.

  16. #266
    Originally Posted by Kvltism
    Such a change requires approval of the Attorney-General from each state. Last time it went to a vote, the Australian Christian Lobby put the squeeze on South Australia's AG and he vetoed an R-rating. He got hammered at the ballot box and turfed as a result. The ACL will continue to push hard against it, because they don't think adults should be allowed to access violent and sexual content with their money. One could argue that the Bible is both.
    You gotta love religion and their values sometimes..........seriously, YOU HAVE TO OR ELSE!!!!!
    FACT: I am definitely without a doubt........ the Truest Fan of the Thief franchise.

  17. #267
    ^ qft
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  18. I think these forums are really starting to get to people.

    I think the banning of certain members (I won't say who) is evidence of that.

    I think the biggest problem is that people see the world (or in this case, DXHR) as they want it to be, not the way it is. I would think by now that it has been made abundantly clear that DXHR is being developed and marketed for a new, larger audience. If anyone disagrees, they're in denial. DXHR is not being developed solely with the original DX fans in mind.

    People need to understand that not every developer/publisher can be like Rockstar Games. Not every developer/publisher wants to put 110% in every game they develop/publish like Rockstar. Not every developer/publisher makes a great game that offers something for everyone without purposefully marketing toward a specific audience. People may not like that, but it's reality. From a business standpoint, why wouldn't you go for easy/fast money, especially if you didn't want to take risks?

    By the way, I'm not insulting EM or claiming EM is being lazy or anything like that. Just bringing up one of my favorite devs in the industry.

    Just my two cents.
    Unprofessional: Never calling back David Bateson AFTER you told him he got the part.

  19. #269
    Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
    I think the biggest problem is that people see the world (or in this case, DXHR) as they want it to be, not the way it is. I would think by now that it has been made abundantly clear that DXHR is being developed and marketed for a new, larger audience. If anyone disagrees, they're in denial. DXHR is not being developed solely with the original DX fans in mind.
    I think people fail to realize, in general, that you don't market something to the existing fanbase. Lets face it, even most of the detractors around here will probably buy the game just so they can have actual first-hand knowledge about the game that they can use to criticize.

    Marketing, like this Sarif Industries ad, is all about increasing awareness of your product. Hardcore Deus Ex fans are already aware of the game and have already formed opinions or assumptions about the game. It's pointless to cater to them. They'll either like the game or they won't.

    People need to understand that not every developer/publisher can be like Rockstar Games.
    What? And be giant tools who abandon the PC platform entirely?

  20. Originally Posted by NKD
    What? And be giant tools who abandon the PC platform entirely?
    Hypocrite much?

    You just defended developers like EM for making marketing decisions in order to gain more profit, yet at the same time you criticize developers like Rockstar Games for developing games on platforms that generate significantly larger sales for their products than on PC?

    And it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Console game sales generate MUCH more money than PC game sales. FACT!
    Unprofessional: Never calling back David Bateson AFTER you told him he got the part.

  21. #271
    Originally Posted by NKD
    I think people fail to realize, in general, that you don't market something to the existing fanbase. Lets face it, even most of the detractors around here will probably buy the game just so they can have actual first-hand knowledge about the game that they can use to criticize.
    It's not the marketing of the game that upsets them. It's design decisions. I suppose those decisions do tie in with accessibility. The sad part is that they see everything short of changing the game to suit their desires as being shunned by the developers. That leaves no room for interaction. I have more to say but will wait for K^2 to return.
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  22. #272
    Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
    Hypocrite much?

    You just defended developers like EM for making marketing decisions in order to gain more profit, yet at the same time you criticize developers like Rockstar Games for developing games on platforms that generate significantly larger sales for their products than on PC?
    No, I don't really care since I am not a fan of their games to begin with. Just impeaching your high praise of them as a developer when in fact they are now irrelevant to PC gamers.

    And it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Console game sales generate MUCH more money than PC game sales. FACT!
    Duh. Has anyone ever claimed otherwise?

    Originally Posted by ArcR
    It's not the marketing of the game that upsets them. It's design decisions. I suppose those decisions do tie in with accessibility. The sad part is that they see everything short of changing the game to suit their desires as being shunned by the developers. That leaves no room for interaction.
    I have to wonder where some of these people built up these expectations. I have never known a non-MMO developer to give a large amount of priority to forum chatter, especially for a single-player game. Why is it they expect developers to come on here and explain every move they make?

  23. Originally Posted by NKD
    No, I don't really care since I am not a fan of their games to begin with. Just impeaching your high praise of them as a developer when in fact they are now irrelevant to PC gamers.


    Unprofessional: Never calling back David Bateson AFTER you told him he got the part.

  24. #274
    Originally Posted by Deus_Ex_Machina
    And it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Console game sales generate MUCH more money than PC game sales. FACT!
    I don't think anyone's contesting that. In fact, it's one of the reasons why a lot of PC gamers look down on console gamers (a perceived lack of discrimination, willingness to shell out slightly ridiculous sums of money for a game, and so on). So PC gamers use that fact against console gaming.
    "Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." G'Kar, Babylon 5.

  25. Originally Posted by Fluffis
    I don't think anyone's contesting that. In fact, it's one of the reasons why a lot of PC gamers look down on console gamers (a perceived lack of discrimination, willingness to shell out slightly ridiculous sums of money for a game, and so on). So PC gamers use that fact against console gaming.
    Right, but no amount of *ing and moaning will change that.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's the way the industry is, and it'll never go back to the way it was.

    Take it or leave it.
    Unprofessional: Never calling back David Bateson AFTER you told him he got the part.

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