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Thread: A TOMB RAIDER Discussion for Square Enix fans

  1. #101

    Which numbers do they think are inflated, exactly? If you're talking about the numbers in their expectations, I'd have to agree. It feels like Square Enix is expecting these games to sell outrageously based on on brand name and by virtue of being made by their western divisions. I feel like Tomb Raider was an unequivocal success, with truly impressive sales. It should also be mentioned that Yoichi Wada has been quoted as saying their sales expectations in the West ARE generally pretty aggressive; As he puts it, lifetime sales of a title tend to be reached within one or two months of release in Japan whereas titles released overseas continue selling in North America or Europe over a much longer period.





    Also, where are you getting your numbers? Are these sales based only on the first three weeks of the North American release of the individual games? Because many of the Final Fantasies sold higher than the figures I see above, and they don't include digital sales or used sales either (which are important to factor in an economy like this). I agree digital sales really should be included, but I think this is more to do with Sony not keeping track of the number of purchases rather than Square Enix not collecting them. It would probably help if Sony included some kind of purchase counter on PSN games. Also, the sales of the games doesn't take into account DLC developed for said games. Both Sleeping Dogs and Final Fantasy XIII-2 had DLC to buy for example, and this does not to seem to be included in profit considerations anywhere.





    I am a little confused, though, regarding the Hitman game. I've been hearing/reading that the game which did not sell to expectations was the Hitman HD Trilogy, but someone else on this forum said it was Hitman Absolution that fell below expectations. I tried to click the gameinformer artcle they linked, but the site appears to be down.

  2. #102

    You are correct! Leafarian.

  3. #103

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Leaferian


    Which numbers do they think are inflated, exactly? If you're talking about the numbers in their expectations, I'd have to agree. It feels like Square Enix is expecting these games to sell outrageously based on on brand name and by virtue of being made by their western divisions. I feel like Tomb Raider was an unequivocal success, with truly impressive sales. It should also be mentioned that Yoichi Wada has been quoted as saying their sales expectations in the West ARE generally pretty aggressive; As he puts it, lifetime sales of a title tend to be reached within one or two months of release in Japan whereas titles released overseas continue selling in North America or Europe over a much longer period.





    Also, where are you getting your numbers? Are these sales based only on the first three weeks of the North American release of the individual games? Because many of the Final Fantasies sold higher than the figures I see above, and they don't include digital sales or used sales either (which are important to factor in an economy like this). I agree digital sales really should be included, but I think this is more to do with Sony not keeping track of the number of purchases rather than Square Enix not collecting them. It would probably help if Sony included some kind of purchase counter on PSN games. Also, the sales of the games doesn't take into account DLC developed for said games. Both Sleeping Dogs and Final Fantasy XIII-2 had DLC to buy for example, and this does not to seem to be included in profit considerations anywhere.





    I am a little confused, though, regarding the Hitman game. I've been hearing/reading that the game which did not sell to expectations was the Hitman HD Trilogy, but someone else on this forum said it was Hitman Absolution that fell below expectations. I tried to click the gameinformer artcle they linked, but the site appears to be down.



    Thank You Leaferian for your insightful observation. The numbers I was referring to are just for North America as you are correct they did sell more when you figure in international sales. That of coarse isn't counting the special additions add-ons and such. I didn't include the add-ons as those were to little to make much if any different in the final sales figures. Furthermore many of those were never released in the US. As far as based only on the first three weeks of the North American release of the individual games as you stated. I am not exactly sure but my guess likely not. These seemed to be full stats from release to current but I could be wrong. At least from what I could understand from my sources. As far as where I am getting some of my information from is VGChartzPro. Basically it is a business intelligence and research firm and publisher of the VGChartz Network of gaming websites.





    As an industry research firm, VGChartz publishes over 7,000 unique estimates per week relating to worldwide game hardware and software sales and hosts an ever-expanding game database with over 40,000 titles listed and 1.5 million unique data points. The VGChartz Network is made up of the VGChartz, gamrFeed, gamrReview, gamrTV and gamrConnect brands and provide consumers with a range of content from news and features to reviews to social networking and community features. A number of publishers, news websites, academic institutions and analysts have used VGChartz data for their business research data. Probably more information then you needed but it is likely where game informer got there reference information from as well. Well at least in part that is. Regardless it is quite informative if you are looking for hard game statistics and such. Well at least as much as one can expect from. As complete numbers would be difficult to come by I would think.





    The only drawback is it isn't exactly weekly as the late update was March 23, 2013 but it's close enough for most purposes. I found this to be the case in Tomb Raiders totals which are a bit off but should have a more accurate account in a couple months or so hopefully. It's the best source I have been able to find thus far as there doesn't seem to be many public companies that track game statistics. Since getting hard numbers is probably going to be difficult as the site doesn't include digital sales unfortunately. This really needs to change at some point. As far as Hitman Absolution goes I believe you are correct with your assumption. Both Hitman and Deus EX were also well received but fell below SquareEnix projections as well. In fact I have yet to see any SquareEnix AAA foreign release of late which did met their expectations.





    This says a lot about SquarEnix past president and hopefully the nearly appointed Yosuke Matsuda will help turn that around. According to Yosuke's own admission, "what does make money, according to financial disclosures over the last few years, are domestic-only titles on smartphones and web, something most western fans have little access to or interest in." He went on to say that "Square Enix doesn’t expect to make money on console games for at least two years, partially due to the generation shift and its heavy investment in next-gen tech such as the Luminous engine." I don't think they have that kind of time to just sit back and expect to ride it out. Yet I think you hit it on the head as far as sales expectations in the West are generally pretty aggressive. Yet that is part of the problem I think. In closing here are some other observations I had.






    If Tomb Raider cost around $100 million to make and has been declared by Square Enix to have failed to meet targets despite selling 3.5 million units in a month, surely there’s no way that BioShock Infinite will make its money back considering it cost twice as much and is unlikely to match Tomb Raiders sales, never mind double them? In fact, just scanning the financial results of games companies shows that outside of the three console manufacturers, the only major publishers to post consistent profits are Activision, Valve and Capcom. All three of which have laid off staff in the past year (although the Valve layoffs were not due to game sales or downsizing from what I am aware of). You have to wonder what the end point of all this will be though. This past generation has seen dozens of developers go to the wall and it seems that the remaining publishers are gambling on being the last two or three standing when everyone else goes bust.






    Of course that will be the point where anti-consumer practices that the likes of EA are trying to force upon us will become the norm because there’ll be no other big publishers left to buck the trend. After just under four weeks on sale, Crystal Dynamic’s reboot now stands at almost half the LTD sales of the original 1996 Tomb Raider, and has outsold LTD sales for every game released in the franchise since Chronicles back in 2000. It is clear that this year’s Tomb Raider is a major hit for the series, and will likely go on to become its highest-selling title. The fact that the game missed Square Enix’s sales target says far more about the publisher’s unrealistic forecasts/expectations, than it does about the quality of Crystal Dynamics as a developer or the competence of the North American sales team (who was thrown under the bus basically.





    Given this new information about first week Tomb Raider sales, it certainly appears as if Crystal Dynamics is being unfairly blamed by the outgoing CEO Yoichi Wada as one of the causes of Square Enix’s weak financial performance. Yet having some expereince with Japanese companies. It's not unusual for them to pass the blame onto everyone else but themselves. Yet saving face has a lot more to do with it but I won't get into that here. Not to mention is besides the point. Perhaps SquareEnix next CEO will set the record straight after Wada leaves this June. Frankly the sooner the better as far as I am concerned. Sorry more of a responce then what you probably wanted but does give something else to think about.

  4. #104

    In Tomb Raider, there is a game-breaking bug in which it will render the game unplayable. During the "Going Back In" mission where you are to save Sam from Mathias, in the Chasm Stronghold, there is a tower filled with 4 enemies and explosives. You blow it up, and you will come to a gate in which you are to pull it with your rope arrows, but is blocked by invincible wooden barriers. In normal playthroughs though, after you kill all the enemies in the tower, you proceed forward, a second wave of enemies appears, in which after you defeat them, a gust of wind blows away the wooden barriers, then you pull it, and proceed. But when the glitch is hit, you walk up, nothing happens. No enemies. Bridge is out from where you came from, so you're pretty much stuck there. I can't go back to previous saves because the game autosaves. The only saves I have are before the explosive tower. If a patch is coming, it would be good to have it on as soon as possible, it's almost impossible to go any further at this point and I'm at an 87% completion. (This is also my first time through). (The platform I'm playing is on PS3)

  5. #105

    I don't get these sales figures but guess someone is buying.


    I would just suggest that core Final Fantasy followers may be a little frustrated that there is not a numbered title that has been released latetly.

  6. #106

    These sales cannot be current, or you have only found the sales for a single system for a multiplatform game. The current North American sales numbers for Final Fantasy XIII for example are 1.57 million PS3 and 1.13 million 360 respectively, for a combined total of 2.7 million for all of North America. These numbers have been the same since around January of this year, although obviously they only update when sales reach a new ten or hundred thousand. Tomb Raider is still selling well, but I think it's important to have all of your numbers accurate to paint the clearest picture.





    I'll think about responding to some of the other things you said, but specifically in regards to your quote from Matsuda I think it's important not to misunderstand them. I don't believe they are going to phone it in on consoles or just sit back and let iOS games be their focus, just that they've invested so significantly in the technology and systems for both Luminous Studio and their own PS4 developments that the money they've spent over the years on them won't be easily won back just by pumping out a Tomb Raider or a Final Fantasy. You should also keep in mind that the 'slow slales' of their console games is not the reason they are taking a heavy financial hit; The $105 million they are reporting as a loss is the cost of fully restructuring their company from marketing models to managers, and lower-than-expectations sales of their Western console games simply haven't done much to offset the costs.

  7. #107
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    Submit a report of your issue to [Tomb Raider Customer Service] support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.ph...

  8. #108
    Xbox 360, logged in this morning and found that my mp data was wiped, went from lvl 36 to zero with the stats even erased. Im not starting from scratch again just to get the damn achievement. I want my data restored somehow. This mp game is awful and never should have been made. Sp is fantastic, makes me sad they didnt make sp even better just so they could make a mo for a game that doesnt need it.

  9. #109
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    Submit a report of your issue to [Tomb Raider Customer Service] support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.ph...

  10. #110

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Leaferian


    These sales cannot be current, or you have only found the sales for a single system for a multiplatform game. The current North American sales numbers for Final Fantasy XIII for example are 1.57 million PS3 and 1.13 million 360 respectively, for a combined total of 2.7 million for all of North America. These numbers have been the same since around January of this year, although obviously they only update when sales reach a new ten or hundred thousand. Tomb Raider is still selling well, but I think it's important to have all of your numbers accurate to paint the clearest picture.





    I'll think about responding to some of the other things you said, but specifically in regards to your quote from Matsuda I think it's important not to misunderstand them. I don't believe they are going to phone it in on consoles or just sit back and let iOS games be their focus, just that they've invested so significantly in the technology and systems for both Luminous Studio and their own PS4 developments that the money they've spent over the years on them won't be easily won back just by pumping out a Tomb Raider or a Final Fantasy. You should also keep in mind that the 'slow slales' of their console games is not the reason they are taking a heavy financial hit; The $105 million they are reporting as a loss is the cost of fully restructuring their company from marketing models to managers, and lower-than-expectations sales of their Western console games simply haven't done much to offset the costs.



    Fair enough! Again I was only quoting sales figures from what I have been able to find. Yet as you pointed out getting an exact number without taking digital into account is probably not as accurate as it could be. You are also correct as some of what I mentioned where just for one system. I tried to include some which showed for both systems but to be fair I had trouble finding exact FF sales I could verify. SquareEnix is not always forthcoming in their exact figures, so we both probably may be on the low end. Another thing to keep in mind is that VGVChartz only figures sales for


    USA
    UK
    Germany
    France
    Japan


    Collectively, VGChartz estimates that total retail game sales in these 5 countries account for around 70% of the Global market. The raw data collected in these five regions are used to produce two extrapolated charts:


    Europe - UK + Germany + France extrapolated to represent the European Totals
    Global - USA + Europe + Japan extrapolated to represent the Global Totals


    This year VGChartz has plans to produce further direct charts for Canada, Spain, Italy, Latin America, Australia and Asia - each new chart will provide more regional insight along with greater Global accuracy. Furthermore I was only able to access thier public records as their Pro version I didn't have access to. Any custom analysis, preview data, forecasts you need to contact them directly. So for information sake this was the best I was able to do. Just so I can provide a bit more accurate account of global sales. I hope this will be more acceptable in your view. All together there are about 151 titles (Square Enix-SquareSoft) among other publishers have released across all Final Fantasy platforms & systems but I didn't include the full list here. It was a pain just compiling this one. Not to mention most of the rest were never released in the U.S. Anyways this might be interesting for some to poll through nevertheless.


    Sales as in million of units:





    <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" class="chart">
    <tbody>
    <tr><th width="5%"></th><th>
    Game
    </th><th>
    Platform
    </th><th>
    Year
    </th><th>
    Genre
    </th><th>
    Publisher
    </th><th><center>
    North America
    </center></th><th><center>
    Europe
    </center></th><th><center>

    Japan</pre>
    </center></th><th><center>
    Rest of World
    </center></th><th><center>
    Global
    </center></th></tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy VII

    </td>
    <td>

    PS

    </td>
    <td>
    (1997)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Sony Computer Entertainment

    </td>
    <td><center>

    3.01

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.47

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    3.28

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.96

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    9.72

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy X

    </td>
    <td>

    PS2

    </td>
    <td>
    (2001)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Sony Computer Entertainment

    </td>
    <td><center>

    2.91

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.07

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.73

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.33

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    8.05

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy VIII

    </td>
    <td>

    PS

    </td>
    <td>
    (1999)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    2.28

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.72

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    3.63

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.23

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    7.86

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XII

    </td>
    <td>

    PS2

    </td>
    <td>
    (2006)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    1.88

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.19

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.33

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.54

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    5.95

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy IX

    </td>
    <td>

    PS

    </td>
    <td>
    (2000)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    1.62

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.77

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.78

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.14

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    5.30

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy X-2

    </td>
    <td>

    PS2

    </td>
    <td>
    (2003)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Electronic Arts

    </td>
    <td><center>

    1.92

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.08

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.11

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.17

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    5.29

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XIII

    </td>
    <td>

    PS3

    </td>
    <td>
    (2009)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    1.57

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.05

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.87

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.45

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    4.94

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy III

    </td>
    <td>

    SNES

    </td>
    <td>
    (1994)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.86

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.55

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    3.42

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII

    </td>
    <td>

    PSP

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    1.30

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.55

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.80

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.41

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    3.07

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy V

    </td>
    <td>

    SNES

    </td>
    <td>
    (1992)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.43

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.45

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Tactics

    </td>
    <td>

    PS

    </td>
    <td>
    (1997)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.93

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.12

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.34

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.06

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.45

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XIII-2

    </td>
    <td>

    PS3

    </td>
    <td>
    (2011)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.72

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.49

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.87

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.22

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.31

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Dissidia: Final Fantasy

    </td>
    <td>

    PSP

    </td>
    <td>
    (2008)
    </td>
    <td>
    Fighting
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.48

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.47

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.91

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.29

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.16

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Tactics Advance

    </td>
    <td>

    GBA

    </td>
    <td>
    (2003)
    </td>
    <td>
    Action
    </td>
    <td>

    Square EA

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.82

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.37

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.89

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.05

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.13

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy III

    </td>
    <td>

    DS

    </td>
    <td>
    (2006)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.85

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.07

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.08

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    2.02

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XIII

    </td>
    <td>

    X360

    </td>
    <td>
    (2010)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    1.13

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.61

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.01

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.19

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.95

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy II

    </td>
    <td>

    SNES

    </td>
    <td>
    (1991)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.24

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.09

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.33

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.12

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.77

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles

    </td>
    <td>

    GC

    </td>
    <td>
    (2003)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Nintendo

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.72

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.38

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.36

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.04

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.49

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII

    </td>
    <td>

    PS2

    </td>
    <td>
    (2006)
    </td>
    <td>
    Shooter
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.47

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.37

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.52

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.12

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.48

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy III

    </td>
    <td>

    NES

    </td>
    <td>
    (1990)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.39

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.01

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.40

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings

    </td>
    <td>

    DS

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.31

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.40

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.54

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.09

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.34

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy I & II: Dawn of Souls

    </td>
    <td>

    GBA

    </td>
    <td>
    (2004)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Nintendo

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.64

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.24

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.29

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.19

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy IV

    </td>
    <td>

    DS

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.47

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.62

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.04

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.15

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    The Final Fantasy Legend

    </td>
    <td>

    GB

    </td>
    <td>
    (1989)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.10

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.10

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions

    </td>
    <td>

    PSP

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.42

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.22

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.30

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.15

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    1.10

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy

    </td>
    <td>

    NES

    </td>
    <td>
    (1987)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.32

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.52

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.84

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Type-0

    </td>
    <td>

    PSP

    </td>
    <td>
    (2011)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.81

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.81

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XI: Wings of the Goddess

    </td>
    <td>

    PS2

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.35

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.27

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.09

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.09

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.81

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Anthology

    </td>
    <td>

    PS

    </td>
    <td>
    (1999)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square EA

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.45

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.30

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.05

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.80

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Dissidia 012: Duodecim Final Fantasy

    </td>
    <td>

    PSP

    </td>
    <td>
    (2011)
    </td>
    <td>
    Fighting
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.16

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.09

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.46

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.06

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.78

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy II

    </td>
    <td>

    NES

    </td>
    <td>
    (1988)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.76

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.76

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Legend III

    </td>
    <td>

    GB

    </td>
    <td>
    (1991)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    SquareSoft

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.76

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.76

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift

    </td>
    <td>

    DS

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.35

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.01

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.30

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.03

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.69

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XIV Online

    </td>
    <td>

    PC

    </td>
    <td>
    (2010)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.35

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.22

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.08

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.66

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates

    </td>
    <td>

    DS

    </td>
    <td>
    (2007)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.21

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.00

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.42

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.65

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>






    </td>
    <td>

    Final Fantasy XIII-2

    </td>
    <td>

    X360

    </td>
    <td>
    (2011)
    </td>
    <td>
    Role-Playing
    </td>
    <td>

    Square Enix

    </td>
    <td><center>

    0.32

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.23

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.02

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.06

    </center></td>
    <td><center>

    0.63

    </center></td>
    </tr>
    </tbody>
    </table>





    Luminous Studio and their own PS4 developments that the money they've spent over the years on them won't be easily won back just by pumping out a Tomb Raider or a Final Fantasy. You are quite correct with that assessment and is why Wada departure might be be seen as a positive among stockholders. On the negative side though the news of CEO of SquareEnix America Mike Fischer is rumored to be let go sometime in May. The head of marketing is also expected to be let go right after E3. Layoffs are also expected at Square Enix's Japanese and European divisions. So that can't be good news.





    Yet that as you have already pointed out may have been part of their restructuring plan but the timing of this is a bit suspicious. On a more positive front what Square is attempting to do with the Luminous engine is a smart move considering how successful the "Unreal" engine has been to Epic Games bottom line. If Square could have similar success there it could help offset some of those losses but we will just have to wait and see. When all is said and done I don't think it is unrealistic to see Tomb Raider make close to those figures though. Japan sees it's sales top out after a couple months as where in the west it tends to be a bit more drawn out. So it still is a bit to early to say one way or the other.
















  11. #111

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Leaferian


    These sales cannot be current, or you have only found the sales for a single system for a multiplatform game. The current North American sales numbers for Final Fantasy XIII for example are 1.57 million PS3 and 1.13 million 360 respectively, for a combined total of 2.7 million for all of North America. These numbers have been the same since around January of this year, although obviously they only update when sales reach a new ten or hundred thousand. Tomb Raider is still selling well, but I think it's important to have all of your numbers accurate to paint the clearest picture.





    I'll think about responding to some of the other things you said, but specifically in regards to your quote from Matsuda I think it's important not to misunderstand them. I don't believe they are going to phone it in on consoles or just sit back and let iOS games be their focus, just that they've invested so significantly in the technology and systems for both Luminous Studio and their own PS4 developments that the money they've spent over the years on them won't be easily won back just by pumping out a Tomb Raider or a Final Fantasy. You should also keep in mind that the 'slow slales' of their console games is not the reason they are taking a heavy financial hit; The $105 million they are reporting as a loss is the cost of fully restructuring their company from marketing models to managers, and lower-than-expectations sales of their Western console games simply haven't done much to offset the costs.



    To end this debate and address the rest of your questions. I'll leave you with some closing thoughts. One interesting observation I came across. Japan only had 3 console titles which even made the top Japanese yearly sales charts for 2012. The top 4 were either DS or 3DS titles. Coming in at number 5 was One Piece Pirate Musou (PS3) followed by Resident Evil 6 (PS3) and rounding out the list at 10 was Mario Party 9 for the Wii. The closest western title Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 came in at 81 for 2012 lol. So one has to ask the question as to who and what exactly are they basing these under performing sales numbers on? Tomb Raider has already surpassed Resident Evil 6 and the others are hardly worth mentioning.





    Titles like Monster Hunter of coarse are a huge money makers in Japan. Yet I would hardly call that a fair comparison as mobile sales in the west are barely worth even mentioning. First of all, the games that make money in Japan are not necessarily the games that make money in the West. Japanese gamers have gone to portable consoles in droves and they buy traditional Japanese RPGs for portable systems. Thank you for bringing that up earlier which is right on the money. Whenever the Vita sees a sales bump in Japan, its because a new JRPG has come out. The same is true of the 3DS. The problem is huge hits in Japan are cult hits at best, over here, well usually. The hardcore Western gamer tends towards FPS games played on consoles, not RPGs played on portables.





    They just don&rsquo;t have the marketing support to become huge hits here. Stop and consider, for example, that half of Halo 3&prime;s budget of $60 million was marketing. Western developers treat marketing their games like their movie studios: Medal of Honor: Warfighter hired Linkin Park to write them a song. Black Ops II launched an ad starring Robert Downey Jr. and directed by Guy Ritchie. Halo 4 has more marketing tie-ins than most movies that came out last summer. Your average Japanese game company just cannot compete with that. With maybe the exception of SqureEnix of coarse. Yet I hardly saw any real marketing push for any of their western AAA titles outside Japan. Yet that could be a reason nearly half of SquareEnix North American marketing staff got fired but who knows I guess.





    Tomb Raider success thankfully was largely due to word of mouth and great reviews among major gaming, news networks & publications which typically don't cover gaming as a general rule. In addition to the usual suspects IGN, MediaCritic, GameInformer etc. In retrospect Japanese attempts to mimic western titles rarely meet with success, and when a developer like Square produces a worldwide hit, it's usually because they deliver an experience not found elsewhere. The problem facing fans outside of the country is that the tastes of Japanese gamers are diverging from the rest of the world, thus limiting the commercial appeal of even the biggest titles in Japan. Furthermore the changing habits of Japanese adult gamers have left the console space in the country to move toward mobile gaming which is huge in Japan. My guess they are basing sales figures accords to these Japanese mobile sales figures?





    Which in almost every case outside Final Fantasy will outsell almost everything else. Not to mention what is considered normal in western markets is not necessarily the case in Japan. The gamers in a since have changed more than the games have. Which might explain why there seems to be such a disconnect between eastern publishers and their western counterparts. What would be considered as under performing in Japan as in the case of Tomb Raider, Hitman, Deus EX. Is seen quite differently by western standards in retrospect. Japan's model is that they work on something until it's perfect & then go and work on the next thing - and it tends to be very sequential. So then at any point in time very early they have something that's perfect.





    Western development takes a more incremental approach across the entire game, so something isn't absolutely perfect until very late by Japanese standards. According to a friend of mine who works for a large game developer. He had said that unlike Japan we share so much development information, tools and everything else. When going to game developer conferences it is a good way to share common procedures and tools to make the highest quality graphics. The Japanese don't do that & are very protective of their development systems. They don't share, and they don't understand English enough to go to these conferences and grasp what's out there. What is also interesting is that the top 5 selling games in Japan right now are all either 3DS or PSP titles.





    So in closing do you think SquareEnix is basing Tomb Raiders sales on it's mobile divisions which tends to be quite lucrative? I don't know but it just seems that when 3.5 + million sales in a month is considered a failure. It has to be based on something other then console sales which clearly isn't what SquareEnix is basing it figures on. As I had already mentioned earlier the top 3 console titles in Japan last year have already been passed by Tomb Raider this year. Well at least when you look at it from a western marketing standpoint it appears that way I guess. Well that about wraps it up for me on this debate. Time to move on to other things. Now with the new Tomb Raider movie apparently given the green light. It will be interesting to see if they can fix that disaster like they have with this amazing reboot.

  12. #112

    I have much, MUcH more to rant about given my background in Organizational Quality and other such business topics, but I just want to chime in and agree completely with the opening post.





    Most infuriating to me however, is the use of Metacritic as a reliable metric for ANYTHING. For starters, only a very limited pool of people actually know about the site, even less visit it, and an even smaller number comment on it or use it for any meaningful reference for their game purchases; You are NOT getting a particularly robust slice of any target gaming demographic relying on such a faulty system. I understand that video games straddle the line between product and art, so that makes it dificult to find meaningful measurements of success for an expensive form of entertainment, but Metacritic!? I'm not the kind of person to wish ill on anyone, but whomever made that decision(and indeed the people making/clearing that decision throughout the industry as a whole) need to be held accountable.





    I have been a fan of Squaresoft's software for decades at this point, and I would hate to see them fail to learn anything meaningful from their current restructuring, because I really feel that the industry and gamers by natural extension need them around.

  13. #113
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  14. #114

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakhim3


    I have much, MUcH more to rant about given my background in Organizational Quality and other such business topics, but I just want to chime in and agree completely with the opening post.





    Most infuriating to me however, is the use of Metacritic as a reliable metric for ANYTHING. For starters, only a very limited pool of people actually know about the site, even less visit it, and an even smaller number comment on it or use it for any meaningful reference for their game purchases; You are NOT getting a particularly robust slice of any target gaming demographic relying on such a faulty system. I understand that video games straddle the line between product and art, so that makes it dificult to find meaningful measurements of success for an expensive form of entertainment, but Metacritic!? I'm not the kind of person to wish ill on anyone, but whomever made that decision(and indeed the people making/clearing that decision throughout the industry as a whole) need to be held accountable.





    I have been a fan of Squaresoft's software for decades at this point, and I would hate to see them fail to learn anything meaningful from their current restructuring, because I really feel that the industry and gamers by natural extension need them around.



    I couldn't agree with you more. I only mentioned metacritic as a passing thought but by no means am I a supporter of it. Metacritic is one of the best example of what moral philosophers call the heterogenesis of intents. Some unnamed guys starts a cross-reference site with the hope to help customers, reviewers, developers and publishers, giving them a place to share resources. For first, let me back up my rant with some facts. Metacritic score is taken very seriously by the industry. There are publishers that are using the score as a clause to establish if a developer deserve a bonus or not for its work. For example, it is known that Obsidian had not received the bonus for Fallout New Vegas only because the game reached a metacritic score of 84 instead of 85.






    For one meager metapoint, Bethesda refused to pay the bonus when FNV didnt reach the score of 85 lol. There are many reasons why the metacritic score is just a joke. For first, each reviewer in every site or magazine uses a different scoring system with different priorities and approaches (and most of the times, each reviewer interprets the same system in a personal way), then the whole idea of the media does not make a lot of sense. Second: not every magazine, site or journalist has the same ethical and professional standards. Third: reviews are just personal opinions and should be considered more a work of fiction in itself than a paper with scientific value. Fourth: the few features of a game that can be judged on an objective level are the least relevant. Last but not least, most game journalist are just over glorified gamers that do not know anything about the reality of game development.





    I guess that most game journalists must be very afraid when they have to score a game. Especially when a AAA title finish is in their hands. Those kind of games involve big teams, big budgets and big audiences and even a mediocre review can ruin the career of many workers in the industry. As a result, we are arrived to a point where in a spectrum that ranges from 0 to 100, most AAA games will fall in the 80+ category. The difference between a mediocre game and a very good one is just a matter of few points. Every value below 80 is not even considered seriously, especially at release. Bad reviews can kill the marketing campaign, especially when the advertisement are published in the same places that should review those hyped games in the first place.





    That alone destroys the whole point of Metacritic!! What's the usefulness if journalists have to pump their reviews just to reach an expected value and (if their career could be at risk whenever they speak their mind freely and go against the grain)? I know that I'm ranting butI cannot suffer a system that rewards cowardice, safety and lack of critical thinking when gaming is first and foremost about boldness and creativity. So, please everyone, stop giving credit to the metacritic score. Take it with a grain of salt as games are suffering because of that worthless system which needs to go.







  15. #115

    With that said here is another point I wanted to cover but figured I would cover it in another post. In its financial report to shareholders a few days ago. SquareEnix cited an &ldquo;ineffective&rdquo; North American sales team as one key reason for the &ldquo;extraordinary loss&rdquo; the company has suffered over the last financial year. You see this is the problem with the current SquareEnix team and why it was probably best it's going thought a restricting now. When you take into consideration now that many AAA titles could cost upwards of 100 million or more to make. That was considered just under a decade ago to be a be what a major Hollywood film would run. One has to ask the question what are they thinking lol. When you consider that Tomb Raider cost 40 million more to make then Halo 4 which went on to set over 5 million units. If these costs keep rising then publishers won't ever make their money back. When ones has to sell several million units just to break even. So that blame falls on SquareEnix.





    One also has to ask if AAA titles are not worth the effort vs the cost they are to produce? Then why does Square get so upset when sales figures don't meet their inflated expections? The problem I see was that SquareEnix was trying to have a major hit on the likes of Call Of Duty which was was never going to happen. Selling almost 5 to 6 million copies for a a reboot of franchise which was barely staying afloat was a bit to much to ask. The fact it has sold what it has is a testament to how great a game it is. Not to mention overcoming almost insurmountable expectations was nothing short of a miracle. So when SquareEnix came out to call it a failure has made them the laughing stock of the entire gaming industry. When AAA titles costing twice as much have made less you have to ask what really were they shooting for with this?





    I think part of the problem is that to much focus is being put into multiplayer and less into the single player experience. I will choose a good single player over multiplayer any day of the week. While Tomb Raider had it's missteps with a less then acceptable multiplayer. It more then made up for it with it's brilliant single player campaign which is among the best the genre has ever produced. Which makes me wonder then why they continue to focus on DLC's which do nothing to add to that great single player experience. I would hate to see them fail to learn anything meaningful from their current restructuring, because I really feel that the industry and gamers by natural extension need them around. Boy do you have that right Malakhim3.





    I very much agree with what you have said there in your closing statement!!! There is no question in my mind that SquareEnix has what it takes to continue it's storied legacy as one of Japan's premier gaming publishers. After all we likely may have not seen the success of platforms like the Playstation had it not been for the success of Final Fantasy. Now with the PS4 looking very good to retake the top of the console race. Especially now with XBox720 very negative press it's been getting as of late. There is no reason to believe that SquareEnix can't emerge from this with a new found direction and purpose as Sony has. If Tomb Raider can return from the dead and achieve what it has. Then Final Fantasay has that potential as well.

  16. #116

    I wasn't aware we were having a debate. I mostly agreed with what you were saying, and simply wanted to point out that some of your figures were off. Having the most accurate figures you can helps people to take you seriously. I made a post just recently regarding some of these things. I read the financial briefing myelf, which was released back when the announcement came that Yoichi Wada would be stepping down, and they specifically stated that the lack of sales in North America was due entirely to their own outdated marketing models and failing to take into account certain costs and processes. They admit that their sales capability in North America is much weaker than they realized, which was one of the major reasons Wada decided to step down and pass the reigns to someone else. The incoming CEO, Matsuda, is expected to bring a fresh perspective. There was also some stuff specifically about Eidos, and how they were given the stage for the 2012-2013 financial year because Square Enix had confidence in them from Eidos contributions to the company leading up till then. Their confidence in Eidos isn't shaken, as it was mentioned above the company takes the blame for their poor internal models rather than claiming the developer to be incompetent.





    I'm concerned as to where exactly they'll go from here, but I don't see any reason to believe they won't learn. I'd also like to say that Final Fantasy is not dead, nor is it anywhere near dead. The situation with the Final Fantasy series isn't the same as with the Tomb Raider series. Lastly, I'd like to address your distaste for gaming journalists. While I am technically new to gaming journalism I have spent much of my adult life paying careful attention to sales trends, tracking the changes and differences between games in the genres I enjoy, and making it my business to stay as informed as possible on gaming news. I love the Final Fantasy series and Square Enix, even though I can see the faults in each. I've personally taken some cursory classes in Gaming Design, as well as extensively experimenting with game-making programs such as RPGMaker. If it takes me over a year create a simple game with a program that essentially lets you jigsaw games together, I can only imagine how skilled someone must be that can take 5 years to create full games including engines, ridiculous graphics, 20+ hours of story, puzzles, and minigames completely from scratch. I would like to think that I'm not completely clueless. I know you were only saying most, I just wanted to say.





    You bring up an interesting point, though, that I think encompasses the majority of fans as well as gaming journalists. Gamers rarely seem to understand how much work goes into a game, or what kind of limitations exist within a given system or engine. "I worked hard" doesn't make up for every mistake in a given game's development, of course, but still. I've also noticed that people seem to take game reviews way too seriously, and as you said they should be considered as personal opinions. While in some cases they contain fact, reviews are largely colored by the personal opinion of the person writing them. As far as I'm concerned they are essentially litmus tests; Good for a quick comparison between the game's features and your interests, but inherently faulty when it comes to in-depth analysis.

  17. #117

    I just have to say, I love your Lightning "Deal With It" banner!

  18. #118

    A new Tomb Raider patch is available for PS3 which I discovered today, I'm assuming it will be available for Xbox Live soon. I created this thread not to report a bug, but to let people know there is a patch available for PS3.

    They released a patch titled Version 1.03, it is 99 MB, and it does the following I know:

    -Fixes the Chasm Stronghold Gate Bug in "Going Back In"

    For those of you stuck on particular levels, I'm not so sure this patch will fix the one you're stuck in, but it will fix the Gate Bug in the Chasm Stronghold that most people are getting on the PS3 and Xbox 360 versions.

    That's all I know that this patch does. If there is more information that it there is more that it fixes, I will edit the thread to include what else it does.

    Feel free to leave a comment if you know what else it patches.

  19. #119
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  20. #120

    I played Tomb Raider multiplayer with a friend very good!


    But i still don´t get why SQUARE ENIX is publish shooters like Tomb raider or the butcher Hitman look their Japanese sales are bad,real bad!.






















  21. #121

    what do you guys think about the multiplayer experience?




  22. #122

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Juan


    what do you guys think about the multiplayer experience?






    I have yet to try multiplayer. I want to finish the single player story first, then get into the multiplayer side. How are you liking it? What system are you playing on? I'm on PS3 and my PSN ID is Nonslaught7 if you want to add me!

  23. #123
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  24. #124

    I don't think so, Tomb Raider is a distraction from Square's core offering: Final Fantasy.


    Didn't buy but rented and was disappointed.


    Can someone help me though with a problem? I'm still playing on the PS2 even though I have a PS3. Game is FFXII. Can't find anything that matches the quality of this game.


    XIII was good but I can't keep playing this one.


    Hitman just didn't appeal.




  25. #125

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_jim


    I don't think so, Tomb Raider is a distraction from Square's core offering: Final Fantasy.



    These are handled by completely different studios, aren't they? I don't see how one franchise can be a 'distraction' from another.


    In general, I'm surprised when I hear all these stories about "the state of the industry." I've never known a time when console gaming is so widespread. As such, I'm inclined to think that if the industry having problems, it's problems they're creating for themselves. Just my ignorant opinion, of course, I'm simply looking at it from the cosumer's point of view.

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