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Thread: A Positive Message About DX3

A Positive Message About DX3

  1. #26
    Gotta agree with Ashpolt and FrankCSIS here, who got the idea that storytelling in games have become more sophisticated? Lets remember for a moment that there was a time when games like Grim Fandango, Riven and Homeworld was mainstream games. They were amongst the AAA titles of their time. Even less successful titles like Thief, Planescape and Freespace 2 had good storytelling down to their roots.

    Today this is mostly forgotten. But I agree very much with FrankCSIS when he points out that production values have improved considerably, and with it the art of making game storytelling like animated movies. I don’t approve of this, although I must admit that there is at least some entertainment to be had in this kind of storytelling. That’s why "stories" like Mass Effect and Starcraft 2 actually are watchable at all: high production values. Yes, you always end up wanting to see the rest of the story; but lets be honest here: compared to good storytelling this is embarrassing entertainment. Like a B-series from the Sci-fi channel, made in house; at the directors expense

    There is a reason why a game like Pshyconauts, which looks like (and to some extend is) a simple kids game, has a far better story to tell than that of Starcraft 2. No matter how many authors blizzard pays to work on their lore. (that’s no disrespect to starcraft 2 as a game, awesome MP as always. Even SP was good due to clever missions).

    As for Bioshock, is it really hailed as the gem of today’s storytelling? (Just asking since people seem to bring it up)
    Sure the setting was new, to gaming at least.
    and yes, the twist was sort of a funny gag at how games work.
    But the story itself, and the stupid ending, didn’t really impress me at all. Actually I was very disappointed about halfway through the game, simply because the initial atmosphere was so amazing, but the storytelling just couldn’t hold up....

  2. #27
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    Originally Posted by Dead-Eye
    lol. Right because System Shock 1&2, Homeworld, Thief, Ultama are not nearly as complex as Gears Of War or Bioshock...
    No, he's right, I couldn't find ammo anywhere In call of duty 4... they must be hidden somewhere, but to make it worse you can't open cupboards. It took me forever, and I'm still looking.

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  3. #28
    Originally Posted by Dead-Eye
    lol. Right because System Shock 1&2, Homeworld, Thief, Ultama are not nearly as complex as Gears Of War or Bioshock...
    I'd actually argue that a game like Ninja Gaiden (1988) is more complex than most things that come out now. Story-wise that is.

    Originally Posted by JCpie
    No, he's right, I couldn't find ammo anywhere In call of duty 4... they must be hidden somewhere, but to make it worse you can't open cupboards. It took me forever, and I'm still looking.


    Nice one.
    "Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." G'Kar, Babylon 5.

  4. #29
    The fact is that the games of the past were never really that complex...
    Fact proven in the book of gaming fact? Cus i aint seen it in there.

    Just took a quick glance to the mega drive shelf. Name-dropping now...

    Jungle Strike - Complex for a console game. managing fuel, ammo and armour. HARD. Could never do the snow level.

    Phantasy Star 3 - A hell lot more complex than most modern JRPGs. Story-wise + Gameplay-wise.

    Echo the Dolphin - The story to that game puzzles me even now.

    And there are many others.

    Console's asside, the PC bred this complexity you bash.
    Play games for the story

  5. #30
    Aw man, homeworld had such an amazing story/atmosphere, I loved it.

    And no one put up my favorite, x-com ufo! Woo, that game was amazingly deep and complex. Though it didn't have cutscenes so I guess the story wasn't up to todays grown-up standards
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  6. #31
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    Originally Posted by Cronstintein
    Aw man, homeworld had such an amazing story/atmosphere, I loved it.

    And no one put up my favorite, x-com ufo! Woo, that game was amazingly deep and complex. Though it didn't have cutscenes so I guess the story wasn't up to todays grown-up standards
    that game was all about the gameplay. it spawned so many things in today's gaming that I don't know where to begin.
    Alas, I have found out a few days ago that my UFO installer is incompatible with a 64-bit OS.....

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by Mindmute
    Once again, you take a pot-shot at a very big number of people, for no reason and with no justification.
    wow, I was speaking generally about no-one in particular, in reference to comments by admins that people were being negative sometimes, but you have singled out a particular person and wrote a complete essay which couldn't be further from the topic title...
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  8. #33
    My dream game would be a remake of xcom ufo with the combat system from frozen synapse (simultaneous turn based). God that would be amazing.
    It had layer upon layer of different strategy elements, I haven't seen anything even close. Which is sad since it's been like 20 years :/

    That game needs a very gentle remake with just a slight update in the combat area but leave the rest alone. The upcoming sequel makes me very sad for the poor children who don't realize what a gem the original was.
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  9. #34
    sry double post

  10. #35
    (kud13, or anyone wanting to play XCOM again: Consider UFO Extraterristals Gold. It is pretty much a remake of UFO, with some added pro's and con's, and slightly different enough that I think most people would enjoy trying it out more than replaying the first game, not even mentioning the easier time you'll have running it, and the better it looks. )

    Ya I don't think anyone can say story telling has improved in gaming remarkably over the last decade or so. I would presume who ever says that is probably a newer/younger gamer. You could certainly argue though (and maybe this what some people mean to say) is that video games stories have become more cinematic,and film-like production wise, in their delivery.

    I'm somewhat conflicted at Human Revolution. To be honest, it'll probably be the only game I'll by in the next 6 months (maybe a year), and I'm really, really looking forward to it.

    On the other hand, I'm really disappointed that they dev team didn't take more risks with the game. I guess you can't fault them (EM seems to be doing a great job), but its just the way the game industry is now a days, for the majority of studios. Gaming is such big buisness that big games have to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Better to make a cookie-cutter game that appeals to 80% of the market say, then possibly make a hardcore game, or innovative game, that only appeals to a smaller core audience. (I think this will change, and this will eventually lead to a losing interest in games, because so many games are so similiar, but for now, that seems to be how it goes.)

    Really: is there one single innovation in Deus Ex: Human Revolution? I'm being sincere here, and I don't mean this as an inflammatory statement. The mini-games for the hacking maybe? I suppose, because they will probably be unique to Hu-Rev' -- but that's even a stretch.

    I'm really looking forward to the game. I think it'll be great. But ya though, it does bother me a bit the Deus Ex was such a ground breaking, amazing design of game, whereas Human Rev, it seems to me, that they are just sort of following all the standard gaming trends, and to the point of not even matching the qualities (that I enjoy) of a game that is now 10 years old.

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by dixieflatline
    (kud13, or anyone wanting to play XCOM again: Consider UFO Extraterristals Gold. It is pretty much a remake of UFO, with some added pro's and con's, and slightly different enough that I think most people would enjoy trying it out more than replaying the first game, not even mentioning the easier time you'll have running it, and the better it looks. )

    Ya I don't think anyone can say story telling has improved in gaming remarkably over the last decade or so. I would presume who ever says that is probably a newer/younger gamer. You could certainly argue though (and maybe this what some people mean to say) is that video games stories have become more cinematic,and film-like production wise, in their delivery.

    I'm somewhat conflicted at Human Revolution. To be honest, it'll probably be the only game I'll by in the next 6 months (maybe a year), and I'm really, really looking forward to it.

    On the other hand, I'm really disappointed that they dev team didn't take more risks with the game. I guess you can't fault them (EM seems to be doing a great job), but its just the way the game industry is now a days, for the majority of studios. Gaming is such big buisness that big games have to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Better to make a cookie-cutter game that appeals to 80% of the market say, then possibly make a hardcore game, or innovative game, that only appeals to a smaller core audience. (I think this will change, and this will eventually lead to a losing interest in games, because so many games are so similiar, but for now, that seems to be how it goes.)

    Really: is there one single innovation in Deus Ex: Human Revolution? I'm being sincere here, and I don't mean this as an inflammatory statement. The mini-games for the hacking maybe? I suppose, because they will probably be unique to Hu-Rev' -- but that's even a stretch.

    I'm really looking forward to the game. I think it'll be great. But ya though, it does bother me a bit the Deus Ex was such a ground breaking, amazing design of game, whereas Human Rev, it seems to me, that they are just sort of following all the standard gaming trends, and to the point of not even matching the qualities (that I enjoy) of a game that is now 10 years old.
    It's true that this isn't the most groundbreaking game to come around. Games like Ultima attempted an open-world experience, with complex narrative and gameplay long before many of today's most popular examples. There was also Elite from 1984, which was the first true open-world game, which had a profound influence on games like GTA, Driver, etc. MazeWar, dating back to the year 1974, could be considered the first true FPS game, even predating Castle Wolfenstein itself. Yes, we've had games like this for over 40 years, but it is comforting to know that we're finally getting around to see them go mainstream.

    Human Revolution isn't extremely innovative, but then so isn't Crysis 2, Halo: Reach, Gears of War 3, ME2, or The Last Guardian. Most of the ideas like nonlinearity have been long ago dreamed up, as has voice recognition, which is still in its early stages as well. And I find voice recognition as possibly the next true step for innovating and maturing this industry. With very complex conversational systems, we'll be able to go way beyond just violence as one of the only forms of interactivity in games.

    As Chris Crawford, put it from his book, Chris Crawford on Game Design, and similarly in his Dragon Speech (starting at 4:17):

    I dreamed of the day when computer games would be a viable medium of artistic expression — an art form. I dreamed of computer games expressing the full breadth of human experience and emotion. I dreamed of computer games that were tragedies, games about duty and honor, self-sacrifice and patriotism. I dreamed of satirical games and political games; games about the passionate love between a boy and girl, and the serene and mature love of a husband and wife of decades; games about a boy becoming a man, and a man realizing that he is no longer young. I dreamed of games about a man facing truth on a dusty main street at high noon, and a boy and his dog, and a prostitute with a heart of gold.
    “The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last.” - François-Noël Babeuf

  12. #37
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    You know, this quote...Has there ever been an actual coming of age type of game ever written? They're common place in litterature and movies, but I really can't think of one gaming example.
    To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    You know, this quote...Has there ever been an actual coming of age type of game ever written? They're common place in litterature and movies, but I really can't think of one gaming example.
    Duke Nukem 3D...
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  14. #39
    This leader didn't have much positive to say about DX3

    http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent...ubtitles10.wmv

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by ricwhite
    This leader didn't have much positive to say about DX3

    http://www.rmwhome.com/Imagescurrent...ubtitles10.wmv
    To be fair, I think the transcriber got a few of the words wrong.

    German can be a difficult language to translate.
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  16. #41
    Thanks for the quote Flying Dove, I like that.

    About the lack of innovation, I don't even mean to say that Human Revolution should try to make a new genre or anything (though that would be nice ) . I mean even minor, small innovation. Like for example, a body damage with reactive local damage considerations, like for example, where your vision gets poor if you are shot in the head, or you walk for a limp if you get hit big time in one of your legs. Both legs get taken out, you have to crawl.

    Or maybe, this is a cyberpunk game, so it would be super cool if you could 'download' (in game) your character into different bodies in the game. So you could play as a woman one level, for instance, if you are going for a social angle in your play style. You can decide whether to buy augs or save up for totally new bodies to use .

    Or maybe, EM takes the plunge and allocates 0.05% of the game's budget towards optimizing the game to actually work well with Nvidia's Vision 3d Glasses (which I have used and aren't bad but games aren't generally made to make use of them).

    Or maybe, each level they randomize the weapon placement. Okay so that might make game balance a bit tough. Okay so maybe randomize the turret / camera / extra agent placement / in hard difficulty mode, so you have to actually pay closer attention if you are playing a second time through.

    Just little stuff. Anything that's different. If I can just come up with those of the top of my head, I can't understand why a full-time career game designer could not at least come up with one thing.

    My question still bothers me: does Deus Ex Human Revolution have one single innovation in design that hasn't been copied from another game?

  17. #42
    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    You know, this quote...Has there ever been an actual coming of age type of game ever written? They're common place in litterature and movies, but I really can't think of one gaming example.
    Nah there is a couple. Not many, but a few. Here's a really old one
    http://www.homeoftheunderdogs.net/game.php?id=43

    Alter Ego. Made my Activision back in the '80s.

  18. #43
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    Originally Posted by dixieflatline
    My question still bothers me: does Deus Ex Human Revolution have one single innovation in design that hasn't been copied from another game?
    Well to be fair you could ask if Dues Ex has one single new conspiracy that someone hasn't thought up before? It's the way the elements work together that make's something unique. Or to put that another way the social interaction may have been tried before but, from what I have seen, it looks like the elements have small changes and enough personal touches for me to say it's unique and possibly innovative.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by Dead-Eye
    Well to be fair you could ask if Dues Ex has one single new conspiracy that someone hasn't thought up before? It's the way the elements work together that make's something unique. Or to put that another way the social interaction may have been tried before but, from what I have seen, it looks like the elements have small changes and enough personal touches for me to say it's unique and possibly innovative.
    One can argue the same thing about the first Deus Ex game's gameplay; it wasn't the first time that we saw elements like stealth, leveling up skills, etc., but how it combined all of those elements is what made it feel fresh. Similarly, Planescape: Torment wasn't that highly original either, other than the fact that it didn't follow a save-the-world plot. The theme of that game was one's own mortality and discovering who he/she is. GTA wasn't the first true attempt at offering weightlifting, pool, bowling, etc., other than the fact that these elements were included as options within its cities. Maxis' The Sims games actually did most of this stuff before Rock* North (and Little Computer People was the game that The Sims follow up to).

    Anyways, what good is it to post negative comments about DXHR on these forums if you know that Eidos will likely not follow the original any closer, instead listening to what people like about it? We really can't do much about what happened to franchises like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six Vegas, Ghost Recon, etc. either. With some luck, we might see similar games in the future, but it might not come from the franchises that originally introduced such concepts.

    Quite frankly, I am also not that impressed with most of today's games anymore, but I am trying hard to not think too much about it by turning to many classic and original ones. In that sense, I see where everyone here is going with this discussion. Even the thought of huge franchises like GTA ceasing to be as creative is what scares me. After all, GTA IV wasn't really that impressive at all in what it did. The only new things that it added were better graphics and physics, a cover system, and online multiplayer, as well as a better storyline. Therefore, it isn't silly to say that it was overrated. A lot of the games that were recently released (in the past 10 years) were overrated, not just Bioshock, but even COD4, Resident Evil 4, Super Mario Galaxy, Uncharted 2, etc. They did not do anything remotely different from the rest of the games out at the time. Everything is derivative.
    “The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last.” - François-Noël Babeuf

  20. #45
    Originally Posted by Dead-Eye
    Well to be fair you could ask if Dues Ex has one single new conspiracy that someone hasn't thought up before? It's the way the elements work together that make's something unique. Or to put that another way the social interaction may have been tried before but, from what I have seen, it looks like the elements have small changes and enough personal touches for me to say it's unique and possibly innovative.
    Well to be fair while DXHR pulls cover, blind-fire, health regen, etc. from other popular titles, perhaps it will be the first game to successful mix those elements, along with stealth, augmentations, and free-exploration/choice-based gameplay to make a salad of amazingness.

    Originally Posted by FlyingDove
    One argue the same thing about the first Deus Ex game's gameplay; it wasn't the first time that we saw elements like stealth, leveling up skills, etc., but how it combined all of those elements is what made it feel fresh. Similarly, Planescape: Torment wasn't that highly original either, other than the fact that it didn't follow a save-the-world plot. The theme of that game was one's own mortality and discovering who he/she is. GTA wasn't the first true attempt at offering weightlifting, pool, bowling, etc., other than the fact that these elements were included as options within its cities. Maxis' The Sims games actually did most of this stuff before Rock* North (and Little Computer People was the game that The Sims follow up to).

    Anyways, what good is it to post negative comments about DXHR on these forums if you know that Eidos will likely not follow the original any closer, instead listening to what people like about it? We really can't do much about what happened to franchises like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six Vegas, Ghost Recon, etc. either. With some luck, we might see similar games in the future, but it might not come from the franchises that originally introduced such concepts.

    Quite frankly, I am also not that impressed with most of today's games anymore, but I am trying hard to not think too much about it by turning to many classic and original ones. In that sense, I see where everyone here is going with this discussion. Even the thought of huge franchises like GTA ceasing to be as creative is what scares me. After all, GTA IV wasn't really that impressive at all in what it did. The only new things that it added were better graphics and physics, a cover system, and online multiplayer, as well as a better storyline. Therefore, it isn't silly to say that it was overrated. A lot of the games that were recently released (in the past 10 years) were overrated, not just Bioshock, but even COD4, Resident Evil 4, Super Mario Galaxy, Uncharted 2, etc. They did not do anything remotely different from the rest of the games out at the time. Everything is derivative.
    If GTA IV adding better graphics, physics, cover, online multiplayer, and a better storyline don't impress you, your standards are too high (not to mention a more detailed world, huge amounts of extra media - radio, internet, TV, etc.) Those being your own words. I mean revered sequels such as Fallout 2 didn't even touch the engine. Whether it deserved the perfect scores is debatable but ultimately GTA IV is a good game, and advanced many elements from the previous generation.

    Likewise not all games have to be revolutionary. COD 4 and Starcraft II are examples of games that stuck to the tried-and-true principles, and refined them as much as they could, delivering a finely-tuned, balanced, and polished product (saying CoD 4 is good on these forums might draw death threats but I stand by it. It's not a cerebral as DX, but then again not every game has to be).

    Likewise I think Mario Galaxy is an example of the sort of sequel people want from DXHR. It sticks to the fundamental principles: jumping, collecting coins, snacking on mushrooms and wearing funny suits, and adds modern technology and innovative gameplay, such as the gravitational bodies concept. And again, it refines that formula so the levels are well-designed, and just darn fun to play.
    "Jensen if you even think of using that CASIE aug on me I will hit you." -Malik

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by pringlepower
    Well to be fair while DXHR pulls cover, blind-fire, health regen, etc. from other popular titles, perhaps it will be the first game to successful mix those elements, along with stealth, augmentations, and free-exploration/choice-based gameplay to make a salad of amazingness.



    If GTA IV adding better graphics, physics, cover, online multiplayer, and a better storyline don't impress you, your standards are too high (not to mention a more detailed world, huge amounts of extra media - radio, internet, TV, etc.) Those being your own words. I mean revered sequels such as Fallout 2 didn't even touch the engine. Whether it deserved the perfect scores is debatable but ultimately GTA IV is a good game, and advanced many elements from the previous generation.

    Likewise not all games have to be revolutionary. COD 4 and Starcraft II are examples of games that stuck to the tried-and-true principles, and refined them as much as they could, delivering a finely-tuned, balanced, and polished product (saying CoD 4 is good on these forums might draw death threats but I stand by it. It's not a cerebral as DX, but then again not every game has to be).

    Likewise I think Mario Galaxy is an example of the sort of sequel people want from DXHR. It sticks to the fundamental principles: jumping, collecting coins, snacking on mushrooms and wearing funny suits, and adds modern technology and innovative gameplay, such as the gravitational bodies concept. And again, it refines that formula so the levels are well-designed, and just darn fun to play.
    Well, I think that GTA: SA was perhaps the better game, at least in terms of how many new features it introduced for the GTA franchise, even though I didn't particularly find those simulation and RPG elements that fun. What I am getting at is the fact that it looks like every other GTA game will be just a rehash of the older ones. There aren't that many more new directions to explore, other than maybe finally coming around to offer nonlinear missions in an open world, instead of the linear fashion that we typically get. And it kind of makes sense to do that because people want as much replayability as possible. Co-op could be one other new direction for them, but beyond that, I don't see much of the GTA formula being changed up anymore. It will be mostly about milking cash and nothing more.

    And it is simply an opinion to call a game very good or bad. Sure, most game critics have given COD4 and GTA IV really high scores, but we sometimes might disagree with the majority, and what's wrong with that, honestly? Do you like every game that scored highly on GameRankings.com, especially if it's in the greatest of all time list? One can argue that many games today are marketed very well, even to the point where game critics are paid good money to praise them highly.

    Going back to what I said about the future of this industry, even more recent text parser games like Facade are a step forward, by implementing a better form of procedurally generated characters that are believable. While I want games to expand to more genres, like offering a lot of romantic and comedic elements, I'm not going to have unrealistic expectations and expect it to happen very soon. I am concentrating more on what games are doing that is similar to those long, forgotten, classics and perhaps what is even necessary. Some more recent titles like Dwarf Fortress are actually doing justice as well.
    “The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last.” - François-Noël Babeuf

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by AlexOfSpades
    I hope that my Deus Ex Human Revolution playtime will go over nine thousand hours

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