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Thread: Kain's Lament: Fan Art

  1. #551
    Hi Hylden, first I also wanna say a big Thanks to your Work, it's amazing and it's nice that someone (like you) allready work on a such old Game. Eidos could start making a Remake of all LoK Games with the Engine and Gameplay of "LoK - Defiance" or the Engine of the last "Tomb Raider" Game. Cause "Soul Reaver 1" and "Blood Omen 2" are very old. Maybe the could Remake "Blood Omen 1" too and with a 3D Engine, but that's not important.

    Anyway, long Story short, the real Questen I have would be...
    Your Work on Kains Skin are awesome, but as I looked between the CGI-Version and the Ingame-Version (and as I played the Game most times by myself) I realized that somethings wrong with Kains Eyes. It's not your false but Eidos made it.

    Kain got ingame most of the time "Stalk Eyes" and most of the Cutscenes he opens his eyes too wide. If you look at the CGI-Picture and the Intros, you would see, that he got "Smaller Eyes" as Ingame. As I was thinking about it I come to following Options.

    First Option: The Eyes (the Iris) could be a little bit bigger and with a bit more saturation.
    or
    Second Option: you could change the Position of the Eye (the Iris) a bit up, cause Kain's upper part of his Iris usually covert by his Eyebrows like an Eagle-Eye or Tiger-Eye. That gives him his bad evil looking he usually have as CGI Model. And it would fix his "Stalk Eyes" looking bug in many cutscenes, cause there are to much white from his Eyeball.

    Actual InGame-Skin:



    CGI-Skin:

  2. #552
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    I think I see what you're saying. The eye is shaped different in the Defiance model it seems. And with those two pictures next to each other like that, I can really see the detail you put into your texture, The Hylden. Those lines on his skin are just matched perfectly. I bet it drove you crazy to get that right.

  3. #553
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    Thanks, Sharevok. I am glad that you're enjoying the skins. As for the eye, the main issue of course is that Defiance Kain's eyelids are a different shape. The iris of the eye, itself, was actually increased in size from the default for the reasons you state. But it's never going to be perfect with the eyelid shape the way they are and that Kain does look wide-eyed in many cutscenes. I was interested in getting Kain's eyes to look right when the eyelids are animated to a closer slant like his CGI version, which happens in a few spots, like where he's chastising Moebius in those scenes. Kain also is looking down at things in a lot of cutscenes, and in that pic you show that Raina animated. His eyelids don't really follow when he looks down, which also shows more of the white part of the eye around.

    So, I'll take this into consideration in trying the iris larger down the road. Too large, and the iris starts to look cartoonish, so there's a limit to how large it can be made. I'm pretty swamped on a much larger project I'm working on right now, but it's noted for the future.

    Zulgbrtzchllha, thanks. Yeah, it was work to get it right. It was a lot better painting directly onto the model than my previous two attempts working in the 2D texture files only, which proved impossible for this, Raziel's parts, and a few other spots to get it all right. Compared to that, this was much easier.

  4. #554
    @Zulgbrtzchllha, right that was exactly what I mean.

    @Hylden, Thx, of course, LoK is one of my favortie Games, so I allways looking for Updates (like the great "Blood Omnicide" Mod, Skins, Mods,...).

    I understand, that's bad, if the eyes doesn't match to the look of the eyelids. I think that would take many tests of cutscenes, to proof if it fits perfectly inGame.

    Yes I saw this bug with the Eyelid since the first playing, Moebius Eyes are the ugliest.

    I know, some things could'nt get perfect. And I don't have the textures to modified them by myself, so that I could take tests on my pc. But if you only changed the Iris of the Eyeball Texture only a bit, it may give Kain a more realistic looking.

    The Skin-Model for now looks damn nice as I watched the changes on this Thread. Funny are the last big Changes. I saw that you schrink his Head a bit and rerendering his Ears and make the Hair more smoother, so that it looks more like the Render CGI-Model.

    I was sitting here the last 5 hours to search for Eye-Üictures of Kain on the Net and painting on the second last Skin-Model (*lol* with MS-Paint... *haha* Sry, but I actually reinstalled my system, so I got'nt have Photoshop installed for the moment, but anyway it works also for this little thing). I'll painted eyes on my own and editet many time for testing, but I realized, that Kains Eyes realy looking often more up. If I painted his Eyes staring infront of the viewer it does'nt looked like him, so I'll take his Render Eyes and editet by size and details so that it fits realy good.

    So if you want to try a retexture of his Eyes, I'll send you the Pic wich I made. =) Only if you want, I'll be glad to you that you took the time to make this Mod in general for us Fans, that's a great honor.

    As Raziel to the Elder said:
    "Than that was a victory, however small, for me (for us all)"

    btw. Sry, if my english wasn't that great but it's not my first language. :/

    Here is the Pic. I have marked the things I've changed (only the eyes) so that you got a good view about the changes. I realized that the smallest change let him different looking, even if you only change the position of the Iris, the size for sure, the widht between the eyes,... So it's not necessary to make a big change by rerendering his eyes, the texture would work aswell.


  5. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharevok View Post
    The Skin-Model for now looks damn nice as I watched the changes on this Thread. Funny are the last big Changes. I saw that you schrink his Head a bit and rerendering his Ears and make the Hair more smoother, so that it looks more like the Render CGI-Model.
    Thanks again. Let me try and clear up possibly a bit of a misunderstanding regarding what I did with the model. Before I do, let me also just say those changes you may be referring to, if you mean the image you showed earlier of Kain holding Raziel in his palm, were done by Raina Audron. She did them to use Kain for other things, but this isn't something that can be uploaded back into Defiance.

    Though I was able to alter the appearance of the horns, and to remove entirely those thick straps his pants had, for instance, I didn't do this by altering the model, itself. The models for Defiance still cannot be altered and then put back into the game, so there are limits to what can be done, which in this case means I can only alter the existing textures. To achieve removing parts of a model, visually, I masked those areas in the texture map. Without the texture in the game, the model is there, but it is invisible, so with a mask here and there, those parts that are masked simply no longer show.

    I am just guessing this might have been misconstrued as me being able to alter the model, given the pic of Kain's eye changes you showed. If not, then never mind.

    But in this image you have, your changes would be impossible for me to do, because those changes could never be put back into the game (as things stand right now). His eyelids are the shape they are and are part of the face model. The eye balls are a separate object underneath them. They move independantly. So, were I to paint the dark shape of the eyelid the way you have it, part of that paint would be on the eyeball, itself. You'd still see the seperation of his actual eyelid and the eyeball, so it wouldn't look right for that reason, but then Kain's eyes move left, right, up, down, and the dark brown painted portion on them would move also.

    Second, the eyeball is centered to look where he's looking. If I move the iris and the pupil on it up like this, when the model's pose was his idle stance looking where it does when I captured it, then when I upload the texture back into the game, everything Kain looked at would be off. When he was looking at Raziel in their cutscenes, his eyes would be centered on Raziel's face, as they're animated to, yet the painted iris of Kain would be pointed above his head, looking over him.


    The most I could ever do would be to increase the size of the iris and pupil, but again I don't have the time to go into it and reupload the skins right now to try it out.

    Thanks again, though. I appreciate your desire to help out.

    One final note on the above: even if I could change the model and put it back into the game, I wouldn't. At that point, I'd simply just remodel the entire thing from scratch, because Defiance Kain is so off from the GlyphX and previous game versions, it wouldn't be worth altering. It's also so low poly and split up in ways that aren't necessary anymore, it wouldn't be usable to for making a proper current generation model.

  6. #556
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    The problem is, like Hylden pointed out, that the eyelids are part of the face, not the eyeballs and as such they shape can´t be altered in game.

    EDIT: ah, sorry, you just posted a long explanation Hylden

  7. #557
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    He's afraid of getting hit in the shins. It's a British football thing. (futbol) I played, I know the pain. Also, there was that time I jumped off the top of someone's van and tried to land on a skateboard that ended up landing on its side so its other edge caught me right in the shin. So this shin armor emphasis makes sense to me.

  8. #558

    Thumbs Up

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    Second, the eyeball is centered to look where he's looking. If I move the iris and the pupil on it up like this, when the model's pose was his idle stance looking where it does when I captured it, then when I upload the texture back into the game, everything Kain looked at would be off. When he was looking at Raziel in their cutscenes, his eyes would be centered on Raziel's face, as they're animated to, yet the painted iris of Kain would be pointed above his head, looking over him.


    The most I could ever do would be to increase the size of the iris and pupil, but again I don't have the time to go into it and reupload the skins right now to try it out.
    Thanks for the detailed explaining. =)

    I had understood your before, but I thought, there maybe could be a possible way to change it anyway, but if you say there's absolutely no way then I believe you. So poar, but sometimes there's an End it can't get further. :/

    I understand, so it's only possible to change the Eyeball, the color for example or the size of the iris for non dumb looking!? Cause the Center of the Eyeball allways looks at his Target, that sounds obvious.

    Do you have the Texture of the Eyeball? And do you know ho many Colors they used for the Skin-Texture? Cause I don't know how to extract your modded File. Otherwise I would work on the Eyeball for some testing and upload some shots for you. That you can tell me what you'r thinking of it, if you don't have the time, which i respect.

    Maybe the change of color could be enough to look a little bit better/more as the CGI-Model.

    Before I forget: Can you please put all of your current modded Files into a RAR-Archive and put it on the first Post of your Thread, so that the People don't need for looking in every textline? Would be great. I don't be sure if I have all Files downloaded and btw. this one Filehoster deleted the files you're uploaded on their site, so I couldn't download all 16:9 Cinematics.

  9. #559
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    i really would like to give 3d coat a spin, but that price man. i just had a look at janos audron`s texture in blood omen 2, the monster one. i do not even know where to start :s
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  10. #560
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    The educational version is discounted now at $85 if you go to 3D-Coat.com. It's usually $99. The only limitation is nothing above 2K textures and only 7 layers for painting. This is the version I have, so it was fine for doing Defiance's textures. I worked around the 7 layers only limit with it's ability to link to Photoshop, where I could add more layers to get the look I wanted, then merge them down before sending it back. It has the same blending functions as Photoshop in layers, for the most part, so you can do a lot of things on a few layers, then also export the texture and bring it back as one layer, and continue from there.

    There are other programs to paint directly onto models. Not sure if you can find any cheaper than that, though. Mudbox, Bodypaint 3D, and Mari are the ones that I know of otherwise, but of course other 3D programs can texture to varying degrees, too. If you have ZBrush, 3DS Max, etc. Blender is free and has everything from making 3D characters to texturing, but I don't think you can paint directly onto the models. You can at least view your textures on the model importing them into it to see then and there what you can change.

  11. #561
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    if you managed to make those mods with the educational version then i should be able to also. still cant afford it right now. Christmas has bled my account dry hehe

    i might give it a spin when the next paycheck comes. was it hard to learn how to use it? i have never really tried a 3d program before. but i do know my way around Photoshop.
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  12. #562
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    It's set up to mimic a lot of what Photoshop does, so that helps. The symbols might not be the same all of the time, but you can hover over things and a description that's *usually* helpful will pop up. It also has most of the layer blending options in Photoshop and a couple of its own.

    What was challenging for me was to get used to painting a 3D object vs. painting in 2D. It feels a lot different and takes longer. I used the link to Photoshop a lot more when first using it since I was far more comfortable with the brushes and layout, even though it tries to mimic it. You get to learn that painting the form that way with snapshots in Photoshop is limited when you try and paint something like a face and you're painting it facing you, all of the way to the cheek, or blending in some photo reference maybe over an irregular object. When you send it back from Photoshop, what you painted that wasn't facing dead on is now distorted around the model.

    Stuff like that alters how you think about what you're doing. It was an issue making the skull of the Reaver be consistent all of the way around it, for instance. You're painting and blending not just one angle, but all angles.

    The low resolution model and the way their UVs are laid out often times don't help, as you get to a seam and nothing you can do will ever get something to be detailed like you want, or sometimes something will bleed over the model nastily.

  13. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    The models for Defiance still cannot be altered and then put back into the game, so there are limits to what can be done, which in this case means I can only alter the existing textures.
    I can do it, but it's kind of painstaking to get the desired effect. I can find the array of vertex coordinates for Kain in the game's memory, but once you've reached that you're essentially making a guess, alt-tabbing back to the game to see which vertex was changed. Then if you got the right one, you still need to make more attempts to give it the right value because of the compressed floating point value format it's in. Then you need to take a ram dump of the data that was changed you I can edit the file.

    It will probably get easier once I get the PrimeMover tool working, as that will do the mesh locating and SIMD stuff to convert the floats. Although let me know on facebook if you want me to show you the current method.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  14. #564
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    is it not possible to make an export/import tool? kinda like mass effect explorer or image tool for gta?
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  15. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorechild View Post
    is it not possible to make an export/import tool? kinda like mass effect explorer or image tool for gta?
    That's what ModelEx is supposed to be. It's very difficult to add importing, though. I have to rearrange the order the data is stored in to save it out, which is complicated enough without having to figure out where about in the file it came from originally.

    There's complications with exporting the rig as well. That has to be exported in order to make sure the imported model still is still compatible with the animations. There's some of the rig data that I don't know what it means as well. I don't know what it means when a bone has two parents or how the animation system should handle that.

    The easiest solution would be to turn ModelEx itself into an editor. That way all the data can just stay where it is and it can enforce any limitations on array sizes and bone arrangements it needs to. ModelEx is open source, so anyone who wants to experiment with it can do so. I've wanted to make an XNA version for a while, but my computer can't handle the shader languages which also means I haven't been able to learn them.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  16. #566
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    Hey, Vampmaster. I'm actually trying something else at the moment with what I've been working (and failing, and working, and failing...) on. Indeed, I truly hope to finally get it ready to show soon. Or, at least before I either crack mentally, or before old age and death...

  17. #567
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    Don't tell me you've given up on this... These are so cool.

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    Hey Zulgbrtzchllha. I am sorry to you guys and gals that I haven't updated this in so long. I'm not retexturing Defiance at the moment, but that doesn't mean I've given up on this all. The past five months, I've been doing something even better, and I only expected it to take 1-2 months. It would have, but I wound up having to fix a lot of things and learn how to do certain things... It's been a real test. If I'd have known I was going to wind up in so many pitfalls and that it would take so long, I would have let everyone know the progress and what I was up to all along. I wanted to make it a surprise, but the secrecy probably has made people think as you ask here, has he just given up?

    No, and it's very close now. I'll be showing what I've been up to soon. I promise. So, again sorry for the absence...

  19. #569
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    I knew it. Legacy of Turelzevir is coming for real. Game of the year right here.
    Seriously though, I just assumed that you got busy with work and other real life things. I can understand how stuff like that can get in the way, but as someone who's working on a personal project myself (though what you're doing looks way more complicated. I'd go crazy having to deal with all that computer stuff) I also understand that it's important not to stop, since if you stop for a little, it's easy for you to end up stopping all together.

  20. #570
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    well ok then ill be here waiting
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  21. #571
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    I suppose that I aught to share this little link here, since you all might be interested in it


    FINALLY -- INTRODUCING THE RETURN OF THE KING



    Kain Returns -- read and see pics of my Next Gen Kain HERE!!

    Tons of pics and descriptions of all of my long journey, but suffice it to say that I've taken upon myself to model. I modeled a brand new elder Kain in (first 3D-Coat, until that became impractical) Zbrush. A super high polygon model of him, all pieces together about 250 million polygons. I have some pics of the high poly in the link, but I've baked this information onto a lower polygon model. Still slightly have some work left to do on it, but the low poly model is about 50,000 polygons and is animatable right now -- I just need to rig it and add bones to do so.

    This is what I've been working on. In September, I put together a preliminary model of these pieces, which looked like this:


    (click image to enlarge)

    I did that in about four days and this I brought with me for some show and tell over at the Nosgoth event with Psyonix. Hah, turns out I wasn't the only one bringing their personal projects to show.

    Anyway, so I felt pretty good here, because I did it so fast and I felt I could probably detail it up and make textures for it, since I'd been doing texturing for Defiance's stuff the past year. I never did any Normal maps, or anything beyond the regular color maps, but I thought I could probably handle whatever was to come.


    Oops! Yeah, ran into probably every pitfall ever I could have and it was a long, long 5 1/2 months, when I got back to doing this at the first of October, until now ... learning and trying and learning and trying to get to here.


    My oringinal, very very lofty goal when I started this and thought I did this preliminary model so quickly, I bet I could do so much more ... was to try to remake the very games by remodeling it all and making my own, using either Unreal 3, or Cryengine. And then reality hit and it took over 5 months to get the model of Kain ready, and he still has some minor work to do.


    I love how life hits you right in the gut sometimes.



    Anyway, so he progressed to this at the end of my run in 3D-Coat. I would have to redo him to this point, because of issues I mention in a previous article that I won't rehash, but suffice it to say it wasn't my fault:

    (pay no attention to the colors and shaders. It was just to divide the model up, visually at the time as a general what I was looking for)


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)

    I thought it was finally ready, had some issues beyond making detailing and had to wind up taking it to Zbrush. To do so meant I needed to divide the model up, because it became too large in polygon count, and reproject all details. Pain in the rear, due to how I had to do it. And in Zbrush it wound up looking not so hot to me, too:


    (click image to enlarge)

    His upper lip was too far up, nose too bunt. I would wind up lowering the mouth and elongating the nose, but I didn't probably lengthen the chin enough and it's been pointed out. One of the things I will need to tweak.

    This is me painstakingly reprojecting the details back onto the model in HD geo mode, using the reprojection brush:


    (click image to enlarge)


    Took forever, then and only then would I find out that I went into HD subdivisions too late on the model, and as I mention in the article, another month+ ensued to try and figure out a way around the crashes and to get my maps...


    This, again, is the "final" piece, rendered in Marmoset Toolbag 2:



    (click image to enlarge)



    if anything, the metalness is making just a tad too much saturation on his skin, but otherwise I'm pretty happy with recreating the model.


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)

    In addition to the pics on As The Chronoplast Turns, I'll offer up some more of the high poly sculpt pics here



    (click image to enlarge)

    And in Marmoset:


    (click image to enlarge)


    the full head and body bust (minus the crown and ear portions):


    (click image to enlarge)

    And herin you might see what I mentioned earlier, when the subject that his chin isn't long enough was brought up. In Marmoset, it looks that way. Here? It doesn't look as bad. I have to fiddle with proportions between programs, it seems.

    the cape is completely sculpted, with Zbrush's surface noise able to apply depth from a real fabric texture:

    [THUMB=http://i.imgur.com/7iLtQIS.png[/thumb]


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)

    And as I noted in the article, Squid said about the Defiance model's cape that he'd look better with wear and tear on it. Turns out that in SR2's Intro, there is a little hint of wear, so I sculpted that into the cape, then painted it to reflect that, too.

    The gauntlet and gloves:


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)


    Pants:


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)


    Greaves:


    (click image to enlarge)


    (click image to enlarge)


    While I am pretty much certain that I, alone, am not going to be able to make a next gen recreation of the entire series, as was my insanely lofty dream for an instant, I would still like to see if I can at least recreate the cutscenes of the series. Maybe not the SR1 and 2 intros. Can't really recreate near perfection easily. However, BO1, BO2, SR1 and 2 ingame, and Defiance's cutscenes I think I could do, if I can ever get my act fully together on learning this stuff. I've done a human Kain version, based on his elder form, so I plan to make Kain in all of his forms. I also have the Soul Reaver fully sculpted. It needs minor final surface detail on the blade and texturing. I'll be showing that soon.

    Sorry for keeping all in the dark. I wanted to surprise people, and it turned into a bit of a nightmare. But, I am glad I lol *almost* have finished it.

    I need to learn rigging and animating. I did a test on Defiance's Kain months and months ago. I don't remember it all, but I was able to rig him in 3DS Max to reasonable extent, I think.

    Anyway, this is what I've been up to. Hope it was worth it...

  22. #572
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    Excellent work going on here hylden and boy it was certainly worth the wait!!
    i am looking forward to seeing human/fledgling kain as well
    "are you trying to bore me into submission?" ~ Raziel/Defiance
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  23. #573
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    This is the coolest thing ever!!! You have done an amazing job with him. Even though it took a while and nearly drove you to insanity he is truly a masterpiece! He is now truly a god!

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    Wow now that is pretty.
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  25. #575
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    Thanks.

    Still going insane from it, unfortunately. More to fix than should have been.

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