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Thread: Kain/Elder God

  1. #1

    Kain/Elder God

    Did Kain have any idea about the existence of The Elder God at all?

    I only remember that he first encountered him right at the end of Defiance, but I don't recall that he was aware of his presence until that point.

  2. #2
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    This is something I've wondered about too. I think he had a vague idea about him, and that Moebius was working with this force, but he only really knew of its existance and nothing else really.

  3. #3
    No, he didn't really know anything about the Elder. SR2 and Defiance are pretty conclusive on that.
    All he knew was that Moebius was a puppet and that some "prime mover" was pulling his strings.

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    Yeah, that's sort of what I meant. I didn't word it very well. I didn't mean that he knew anything about the Elder God, just that he knew that there was someone behind Moebius and that this was something powerful.

  5. #5
    Right - I was just agreeing with you .

  6. #6
    I figured that, maybe in that sense, he knew that someone higher than Moebius was pulling all the strings, including Moebius.

  7. #7
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    He definitely knew that.

    "Moebius is a puppet, Raziel. Haven't you realized that yet? That's the sweetest irony in all of this: Nosgoth's great manipulator is their plaything. But the ones pulling the strings haven't shown their faces, yet."

    When Kain finally does see the face of the EG, he also notes for the first time the implications of this being:

    "What in hell?" "Had I condemned Raziel to this nightmare when I bore him into the abyss?"

    If he had any speculations on the EG as an entity, he wouldn't be asking himself this in this moment. So, yeah, he knew there were higher beings at play, but that these beings remained in shadow, manipulating from afar. But Kain didn't suspect specifically something like the EG.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    He definitely knew that.

    "Moebius is a puppet, Raziel. Haven't you realized that yet? That's the sweetest irony in all of this: Nosgoth's great manipulator is their plaything. But the ones pulling the strings haven't shown their faces, yet."

    When Kain finally does see the face of the EG, he also notes for the first time the implications of this being:

    "What in hell?" "Had I condemned Raziel to this nightmare when I bore him into the abyss?"

    If he had any speculations on the EG as an entity, he wouldn't be asking himself this in this moment. So, yeah, he knew there were higher beings at play, but that these beings remained in shadow, manipulating from afar. But Kain didn't suspect specifically something like the EG.
    Definitely. I don't think he ever considered EG until he saw him and realized what he had done.

    Kain was caught up in his own problems to not think one step ahead about things. I mean, he knew that Raziel was somehow resurrected, just didn't know WHO it was that revived him.

  9. #9
    In one of the Kain levels where you're exploring the Vampire Citadels, you can stumble to the gates where Raziel steps through 500 years later and see the mural with the wheel of fate, where Raziel talks about the emo-vamps going into pity mode because their God-friend broke up with them.

    He doesn't have a voice-over about the mural's meaning, probably to save the players some time, but he probably sees it and thinks something like "Here I saw an image of the ancient vampires' God who who appeared to abandon them...guess they should have worshipped a different god. Good thing for me I'm an atheist"

  10. #10
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    It's interesting that you say that. In the purist definition of Atheism, I am sure Kain would be skeptical of any and all religion and deities as to their actual God status, like he's completely skeptical of "The Oracle," later denouncing it when it reveals itself as the EG. However, that doesn't mean Kain has no belief in higher deities, or God of any type. In fact, though fate and time/history are linked often when he, Kain, is explaining the rules of time alteration to Raziel, Kain also separates, at least in speech, the designation of fate many times. Plus, the now infamous opening to Defiance has Kain deliver even more separation of the divine and the happenings of Nosgoth:

    "But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars."

    Now, you might argue that Kain is being simply eloquent here (Kain doesn't say anything he doesn't mean, though), but he ascribes much to fate, and here, he's making an effort to include a heavenly influence -- something out of his reach and out of the reach of any man (or vampire ), and which is not simply the force of the flow of time. He's ascribing heavenly bodies in the sky with actual consciousness, with desire, with influence, calling them tyrannical. Kain has also been to, what was for him, hell, when he was killed as a mortal and Mortanius visited him. For Kain, that was the very depiction of hell, though we know this was simply the Spectral Realm. Perhaps Mortanius made an illusion of it, or perhaps it is different for each being, so in essence, is an actual purgatory or hell. Kain told Ariel, "Back to hell, spirit!" when he first met her spirit in BO1. And there are other bits of dialogue, written in the same way, which lead me to believe Kain has belief in some form of God, or Gods, a system of the afterlife and of influence on him and the world that is more than simply forces beyond any control, like the non sentient time. I realize Kain has found out that his own fate has been maniulated by the influence of Moebius and the one controlling Moebius. However, Kain also knows that this is Moebius' fate to do so. So, still, Moebius is under the control of fate, which means there's a reason still beyond this plane of understanding for why that is. Somehting wants this trial of fates to occur, something that created fate and time to begin with. All Kain concerns himself with, though, is the influence in the here and now. He can't stop time and the creators of fate, only those that have, by their own fate, thwarted Kain's and Nosgoth's original destiny.

    If there is fate, most would believe that there's something, or entities, which has/have designated these fates for a reason. Kain seems to believe in this. However, again, I don't think he'd take a being proclaiming itself as a God in front of him at face-value, no matter how "divine" it looked. The EG, one can argue, is just plain too ugly and "demonic" to be considered a God, and that may be why Kain balked. But, I think Kain would have treated it with complete mistrust, no matter its form (plus, it was trying to bing down the Citadel on Kain's head -- something that is a no-no Oh, and he just watched Raziel sacrifice himself so that he, Kain, could see the "true enemy"). Kain has been used by too many and seen too much to take anything at face value, but he has inherent belief, faith, in some divine providence in the world. Here's the kicker, though: Kain, I am certain, is of the mindset that such an influence is NOT on his side, lol. And I think Kain is perfectly fine with that. He's saying so up there in the quote. He's defying fate, defying whatever God, or Gods, have set everyone upon this road. Plus, again from his perspective, Kain has already seen where he was to go when he died: hell. I doubt he thinks he's done anything in the time since being undead which has changed that ultimate outcome, so he's working not only against those whom are fated to destroy whatever intended destiny Nosgoth had and his own, but he's fighting against, or really, without the help of, anytime from any heaven, or divine influence, out there. He's on his own.

    A footnote: it's also highly unlikely that any being knowing that they have a soul, and knowing, in fact, of other spirits and how to actually pull souls from the afterlife, would also be an atheist. I probably could have just written this and called it a day, but I guess I needed to flex my typing muscles

  11. #11
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    There's no particular reason why a giant squid can't be a 'God', although defining that term is tricky in fantasy worlds. Why does 'God' have to be pretty'?

    Kain has been manipulated too often to readily trust anyone. It doesn't matter if its EG or a beautiful creature. He says 'My God' every now and again, but I think that's probably just because its an exclamation the player can understand. If he said 'by the beard of Slagathor!' it'd need to be explained what that means, and the only other thing that might work is some exclamation to do with the pillars.

    I think 'tyrannous stars' is just poetry. He knows that some entity is playing with his destiny, but because he doesn't yet know who or what is pulling the strings, he ascribes identity to the stars. He doesn't actually mean that they have an influence on his fate, just that they are, in poetic terms, watching him, as is the unknown weaver of his fate.

    Footnote: There may be another player other than the EG in weaving fate, yet to be revealed. Otherwise, why would the Elder have allowed Kain to be born? Why would he have allowed the Hylden curse to happen?
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  12. #12
    Footnote: There may be another player other than the EG in weaving fate, yet to be revealed. Otherwise, why would the Elder have allowed Kain to be born? Why would he have allowed the Hylden curse to happen?
    Is the EG really a being that controls the ebb and flow of history? Of fate? I don't think so. He just seems to be a powerful soul-drinking creature which used his bi-realm status and mysterious nature as a means to make others follow it. And preaching about his "Wheel of Fate", he coerced the Ancients into believing that he was a God. Thus giving him great influence over Nosgoth's ancient peoples. But the Hylden didn't buy what the EG was selling and so made themselves immortal, which was a big no-no in EG's book. So he ordered the Ancients to destroy them, which inadvertently led to the Hylden being banished and the Ancients to being cursed. Now with the Hylden gone and the Ancients immortal, EG could no longer feed off of their souls and so abandoned them, in favor of Moebius and the humans who were still mortal and could still provide souls for him.

    And under his influence, the humans decimated all but one of the Ancients, claiming the pillars and thus cementing EG's hold over Nosgoth. It was only then, using Moebius's ability to look into the time-stream and foresee future events, was he able to influence history for his own benefit. That's not to say that the EG himself cannot look into the time-stream, but he as much of a chance of controlling history as Kain does.
    I am everywhere...and nowhere. I am everything...and nothing. I am...fear itself!

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    ReaverofCupcakes, that's pretty much how I see it too. The Elder God isn't outside of history or even able to look into the timestream, all he knows is what he was able to get out of Moebius, though it probably did it in a way to make Moebius think that he was also able to look into the timestream. I also think that the reason the Hylden became the enemy was because they found out some way of achieving immortality, which is why they were able to use it as part of the curse that they put on the Ancient Vampires.

  14. #14
    Thanks Zulgbrtzchllha. I just couldn't see the EG as being anything else besides a gluttonous monster who used Nosgoth and the souls of its inhabitants as his own personal bowl of M&M's. I believe Raziel said it best: "Why must this game go on? We both know what you are. You're no better than the vampires you so despise--a voracious parasite cloaking its appetite in a shroud of righteousness."
    I am everywhere...and nowhere. I am everything...and nothing. I am...fear itself!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaverofCupcakes View Post
    I just couldn't see the EG as being anything else besides a gluttonous monster who used Nosgoth and the souls of its inhabitants as his own personal bowl of M&M's.
    That's one way of putting it

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    Quote Originally Posted by KainFanatic192 View Post
    Definitely. I don't think he ever considered EG until he saw him and realized what he had done.

    Kain was caught up in his own problems to not think one step ahead about things. I mean, he knew that Raziel was somehow resurrected, just didn't know WHO it was that revived him.
    kain knew what he was doing when he damned raziel to the abyss,
    he expected him to be resurected, this is obvious by kains reaction to raziels wraith greeting him and states so in the dialogue.
    he knew the future from the time stream device however the device is blind to all but the predetermined future of the meterial realm, blind to that which simletaniously exists as a constant but because of this, destroying it at any point will mean it never existed.
    raziel was niether alive nor dead, an unexisting existance. he is the other half of the reaver and as such his verry existance is, how to put it... tangable?

    tl;dr
    everything is predetermined and time itself is simletaniously influenced by everything and nothing, 0 and 1, existing only in a quantum moment.

  17. #17
    I always got the impression he knew nothing of the Elder God until he met him.
    When he is telling Raziel that the true manipulators have not shown their faces he is referring to the Dark Entity of BO1. From his perspective this is the being that has been manipulating all the events and he believes that Moebius is one of its pawns. All he knows of the Hylden is what we saw in BO1 and he has seen no greater manipulators.
    At the end of SR2 he gains memories of the new timeline he has just created wherein he defeats the Hylden but once he has seen what they truly are he begins to suspect that there is an even greater force at play and so begins a quest in Defiance to discover his true destiny. When he finds the Elder God at the end he is shocked to see it and his understanding of it is limited.

  18. #18
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    Exactly. Kain "knew what he was doing" alright when he abyssed Raziel. He knew that Raziel would return as the Wraith, then become the sword in the past. However, though he knew of all of these events, he never knew of the EG. I don't think Kain thought the prime mover was the Dark Entity, though, simply because, from his perspective, Kain killed this entity back in BO1. However, I believe he's linking this entity, along with Moebius, back to the pupetiers, whomever they were to be. It's only in the end of Defiance, however, that Kain knows by any means that the EG is the one.

    What in hell?!
    followed by,

    "Had I condemned Raziel to this nightmare when I bore him into the abyss?"
    "This nightmare" refers to the EG, who Kain has just learned of. That was the whole point of Raziel using the Wraith Blade on Kain to purify him, to purify his sight. This is the only way Kain can see the true enemy.

    And it was then ... I saw...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by callumparker666 View Post
    kain knew what he was doing when he damned raziel to the abyss,
    he expected him to be resurected, this is obvious by kains reaction to raziels wraith greeting him and states so in the dialogue.
    he knew the future from the time stream device however the device is blind to all but the predetermined future of the meterial realm, blind to that which simletaniously exists as a constant but because of this, destroying it at any point will mean it never existed.
    raziel was niether alive nor dead, an unexisting existance. he is the other half of the reaver and as such his verry existance is, how to put it... tangable?

    tl;dr
    everything is predetermined and time itself is simletaniously influenced by everything and nothing, 0 and 1, existing only in a quantum moment.
    Correct.

    The Elder God was pretty much wrong about Kain's intentions. Kain knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't throw Raziel into the abyss on a jealous whim. He threw him into the Abyss because there's more to Raziel than meets the eye. In fact, the moment Kain saw those wings in SR1, it meant trouble, but also a way to save himself from the destiny that happened and Raziel was the key.

  20. #20
    What I meant was that Kain believed the Hylden were the prime manipulators although he did not yet know who they were, what their name was or what they wanted. He had faced their scheming to some degree but had not yet seen any evidence of the Elder God's meddling and therefore knew nothing of him.

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