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Thread: Could a real world UNATCO work?

Could a real world UNATCO work?

  1. #1
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    Could a real world UNATCO work?

    On the History channel I remember watching some special about presidential romances. One of which was a romance FDR had with Lucy Page Mercer. According to the special FDR told Lucy about his plans to lead the United Nations after WWII and help establish it as a world governing body. Unfortunately this dream of his never came into fruition because he died before the end of WWII.

    This got me thinking, what if Roosevelt had gone on to lead the United Nations after World War II and established it as a real world governing body that worked? In essence what would a working United Nations be if the UN could make international laws and had the ability to enforce said laws. What would need to change and what would need to stay the same?

    I ask because this political theme seems like it's at the center of Human Revaluations plot.

  2. #2
    You could write a book on any of the three questions you asked. Care to narrow it down to one?
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  3. #3
    Realistically speaking this does exist. That is the reason Deus Ex and Deus Ex HR are focusing on such topics.

    Currently we have the UN, NATO, and several other international groups with plenty of power. Not as much as shown in Deus Ex, but the story in the games says it would happen over time.

    Now you may not see that power if you live in say the US, but that's the point. That power and enforcement of law is in other countries were action is deemed necessary by any nation or group of nations that hold sway in the UN or NATO. Meanwhile, regular citizens living in a superpower country have little to no knowledge of how things work outside of their borders.

  4. #4
    Well, theoretically a UNATCO-like entity could exist- a transnational anti-terror force with broad powers. Tom Clancy's book Rainbow Six is a fair approximation of how such an entity might operate. The problem is that such an entity can only operate in an atmosphere of consensus. An organization like UNATCO couldn't exist in the near future because of the wide difference of opinion about how terrorism is to be defined, much less confronted. The broad popular support for Israel in the United States is balanced by the broad popular support for the Palestinians in Europe. The condemnation in the West of rogue or radical states like Iran, Chavez's Venezuela, etc., is balanced by the tacit support of authoritarian states like Russia and China. The relationships between states are too complex at this juncture to accomodate a UNATCO-like organization. To form UNATCO, one would need a complete consensus of at least the permanent members of the UN Security Council: US, China, Russia, France, and England. Good luck with that!

  5. #5
    It appears to be likely that the people who want this unatco thing to happen will execute a plan that will involve a major event that will affect the whole world and to survive it all nations will have to come together and work as one. Seems to me to be likely, i hope it wont happen and another way to make us all come together will happen
    the telescopic evolution paradigm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saxX-Z6w3p4

  6. #6
    @ Atlantis

    I'm assuming you're basing that notion on crackpot, Zeitgeist-style nonsense, rather than any rigorous research.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by tartarus_sauce
    Well, theoretically a UNATCO-like entity could exist- a transnational anti-terror force with broad powers.
    What would it's scope and structure be?

    Originally Posted by tartarus_sauce
    An organization like UNATCO couldn't exist in the near future because of the wide difference of opinion about how terrorism is to be defined, much less confronted.
    Bingo! This is one of problems. This could be a stimulating thread but it's nap time now. Keep it civil so I can join in tomorrow.
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  8. #8
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    Yeah, but you don't need EVERYONE to agree on it. You think everyone agrees with UN's decisions and actions?

    Basically, if US, Canada, EU, Russia, China, Australia, and Japan put one together, it'd be fairly untouchable all over the world. Such a coalition does not seem impossible.

  9. #9
    @ArcR

    I think Tom Clancy actually got it right when he wrote Rainbow Six, a book about a new trans-national counter-terror team, working within NATO's command structure. At the time of writing, in the late 90's, it seemed fairly plausible. Of course, post-Iraq, the notion that America and Europe could have the same kind of chummy relationship necessary for such an organization to exist and operate freely stretches credulity. Nevertheless, it is theoretically possible- the UN has deployed troops, even fought full-scale wars before.

    @K^2

    You wouldn't need every country to agree, but you'd need a strong consensus. A UNATCO organization necessarily overrides sovereignty, which is something most countries are extremely wary of doing. Even if all the countries you mentioned put together some kind of counter-terror force (fantastically unlikely), it's unlikely the United Nations would hold together in the face of that kind of strong-arm behavior.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by tartarus_sauce
    @ Atlantis

    I'm assuming you're basing that notion on crackpot, Zeitgeist-style nonsense, rather than any rigorous research.
    Im not taking a guess out of nowhere, and im not saying its going to happen, im jus sayin that it is likely that a major event (climate change, meteorite, virus, terrorism) that affects us all humans in the world will make us come together and work together as one, this may or may not could be a plan from the elite that wants to create a new world order.
    Of course im speculating and so this should not be taken so seriously.
    the telescopic evolution paradigm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saxX-Z6w3p4

  11. #11
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    Well the United Nation Anti-Terrorist Coalition is not the most threatening name to national sovereignty. Not in a world where a new from of Cybernetic Terrorism has everyone in a mass hysteria. I mean maybe there we're a bunch of Terrorest groups that sprouted up just before the formation of UNATCO. They committed acts of terrorism on every nation with unmatched speed and efficiency that the world was scared. Thus forcing a Coalition from all nations in response to combat this threat.

    In Cyberpunk 2020 (RPG coverback) characters would lose their morality when they augmented themselves. After too many augmentations people would tweek and go on killing sprees, think themselves gods and try and create a New World Order. Maybe in Deus Ex there was so much random terror by augmented people that something needed to be done. International laws on augmentation technology needed to be enforced to protect all nations from augmented people. Using the fear of augmented people and increased terrorism MJ12 forced the UN into passing the bill.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by K^2
    Basically, if US, Canada, EU, Russia, China, Australia, and Japan put one together, it'd be fairly untouchable all over the world. Such a coalition does not seem impossible.
    Mentioning EU there, I just had to chime in:
    The EU themselves are experiencing serious problems implementing all the things they want done. A lot of citizens in a a couple of countries are starting to have second thoughts about all this. And that is just a coalition of 27 states with (fairly) similar cultures and political climates. Imagine adding American thinking, Asian thinking... A coalition like that may not be impossible to get off the ground. But keeping it going, that's where the problems come in.
    "Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." G'Kar, Babylon 5.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Fluffis
    Mentioning EU there, I just had to chime in:
    The EU themselves are experiencing serious problems implementing all the things they want done. A lot of citizens in a a couple of countries are starting to have second thoughts about all this. And that is just a coalition of 27 states with (fairly) similar cultures and political climates. Imagine adding American thinking, Asian thinking... A coalition like that may not be impossible to get off the ground. But keeping it going, that's where the problems come in.
    The EU countries aren't all pretty similar in culture and political climate. There are a few fairly easily recognized groups of countries. There is bound to be trouble given the long history of violence and mistrust between each and every country.

    Even within the US not all states see things the same. There are plenty of differing laws for each state. Even federal law is not taken as absolute by some states. This is essentially the same country not seeing things eye to eye.
    Rule 30: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Irate Iguana
    The EU countries aren't all pretty similar in culture and political climate. There are a few fairly easily recognized groups of countries. There is bound to be trouble given the long history of violence and mistrust between each and every country.
    What I meant by that is that there are more similarities between the EU countries (culturally, mainly) than between most EU countries and, say, Japan or China, or even the US - though there it varies more from country to country (I'm from a EU country myself, so I do know what I'm talking about.)

    But yes, there are clear "groups" of countries. The past wars don't make anything easier. Then try adding those particular differences to a global coalition, and you are going to see squabbling like you wouldn't believe. There's enough internal problems in the UN as it is. Imagine what would happen if they got their hands on some controlling power.
    "Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." G'Kar, Babylon 5.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Fluffis
    What I meant by that is that there are more similarities between the EU countries (culturally, mainly) than between most EU countries and, say, Japan or China, or even the US - though there it varies more from country to country (I'm from a EU country myself, so I do know what I'm talking about.)
    The Northern countries have a pretty different culture from the Southern countries or the Balkan countries. The Northern countries are more on par with the USA than with their Eastern and Southern compatriots. I'd regard the Eu more as a combination of three distinct blocks than as a solid whole. The differences between the blocks are almost the same as between those three other countries. The only thing that really unites them is the fact that they are on the same continent.

    (I'm also an EU resident).
    Rule 30: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Irate Iguana
    The Northern countries have a pretty different culture from the Southern countries or the Balkan countries. The Northern countries are more on par with the USA than with their Eastern and Southern compatriots. I'd regard the Eu more as a combination of three distinct blocks than as a solid whole. The differences between the blocks are almost the same as between those three other countries. The only thing that really unites them is the fact that they are on the same continent.

    (I'm also an EU resident).
    Don't forget common history... Granted most of it has been a history of war, but even that can actually bring understanding, as well as dissension, because while countries may have been enemies in one war, most have been allies in another. And just in the last, say, 20-30 years (even before the EU started to have any real influence in that area), people have been learning a hell of a lot more about their neighbours, and getting cross-nation cultural influences.

    I'm from Sweden (one of the northern ones, for the sake of inter-post aligning) and I'd say we're pretty far from being on par with the USA (though god knows, it's not from lack of trying by some parties). We're one of those countries that certain elements in the US tend to look at as being one step removed from (if even that) Communists.

    Anyway, that's not really the point I was trying to make: If something as, relatively speaking, small as the EU has this much trouble; imagine bringing in Asia, Australia, Africa and the Americas into the mix as well. Now we're talking major cultural differences, and some pretty nasty wars and colonizations. I see it as a recipe for disaster, frankly.
    "Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." G'Kar, Babylon 5.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Fluffis
    Anyway, that's not really the point I was trying to make: If something as, relatively speaking, small as the EU has this much trouble; imagine bringing in Asia, Australia, Africa and the Americas into the mix as well. Now we're talking major cultural differences, and some pretty nasty wars and colonizations. I see it as a recipe for disaster, frankly.
    Oh, I quite agree. Even though Russia and China are both pretty much huge countries even they have several factions withing their borders that don't see eye to eye. Cooperation of humans on any grand scale is already difficult. Having different countries work together is almost impossible. The best chance is if the goal is something pretty nebulous and leaves none of the countries worse off than when they entered.
    Rule 30: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Irate Iguana
    Oh, I quite agree. Even though Russia and China are both pretty much huge countries even they have several factions withing their borders that don't see eye to eye. Cooperation of humans on any grand scale is already difficult. Having different countries work together is almost impossible. The best chance is if the goal is something pretty nebulous and leaves none of the countries worse off than when they entered.
    Agreed. Any kind of concrete coalition with true power is pretty much doomed from the get-go.
    "Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." G'Kar, Babylon 5.

  19. #19
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    Well assuming you where MJ12 and had almost unlimited resources with no moral inflexibility how would you establish said organization?

  20. #20
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    It will take time, tremendous amount of it, and a bit of luck.

    A stable EU, with a unified army, is necessary before any of this can happen. Democracy has demonstrated to be the one force which stands a chance in bringing together the European nations, where all dictators and conquerers miserably failed. Democracy takes time, however, more than we can fathom in any conspiracy plan. People are having second guesses now, because they've just figured how much individuality you lose when you aim for concensus. Concensus which, in democracy, does not in any way represent the sum of all of its parts.

    I'd say the EU is its own threat, in the sense that there are people working too actively at building it, moving things into motion too fast, mostly for their own glory. I'd suspect this is the kind of project some people wish to see finished before they pass, and interestingly it may be the very reason why they will never actually see it. With enough time, this project is bound to succeed. In theory all the right ingredients are there, but the future is far too unpredictable for me to make a bet on this one. All you need is one bad (or bold) leader to set you back twenty years.

    The reason I'm bringing any of this up is because how rather accurate a model it is for what you are looking for. Democracy spreading almost fanatically accross the globe, enforced through war when necessary, is the foundation of such a project. We may find it highly improbable at this point for nations to agree to a matter such as this, but the situation will not be the same once all nations work through a governance institution which heavily relies on concensus. Governance is too unbalanced in the world now for a global force to work, and for people to agree on the simplest matters. Again, time will do its toll, supposing no leader, or group, tries to shift the balance dramatically in the meantime, or simply sees things too differently.

    I've mentionned a few times on this board and elsewhere that I've come to see democracy as living thing, spreading accross the world, taming everything down. We can see it in action as it bullies some states in the EU, in favor of the voice of the "majority", and yet manages to further tighten its grasp with every passing vote. There is no reason, save a martian invasion or a sudden nuclear war, for it not to succeed in bringing the nations together, whether they truly want it or not. I don't think there are any mysterious men hiding behind curtains setting this whole thing up. It simply appears to be democracy's built-in logic to spread in such a way.
    To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness

  21. #21
    If Intel is the cornerstone of CT work then Interpol rather than NATO would be the most likely candidate. After all UNATCO is law enforcement not military. If you go to their wiki page or their official website you'll see that all they are missing is a proactive force.

    In order to maintain as politically neutral a role as possible, Interpol's constitution forbids its involvement in crimes that do not overlap several member countries,[3] or in any political, military, religious, or racial crimes -wikipedia
    Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by ShinyRedKnight
    Realistically speaking this does exist. That is the reason Deus Ex and Deus Ex HR are focusing on such topics.

    Currently we have the UN, NATO, and several other international groups with plenty of power. Not as much as shown in Deus Ex, but the story in the games says it would happen over time.

    Now you may not see that power if you live in say the US, but that's the point. That power and enforcement of law is in other countries were action is deemed necessary by any nation or group of nations that hold sway in the UN or NATO. Meanwhile, regular citizens living in a superpower country have little to no knowledge of how things work outside of their borders.
    good point, but in reality the US is NATO, and the UN is more a debating society then anything else. not to say there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but history has shown over and over again that the UN is mostly incapable of doing anything meaningful. and now, on top of all that, it's become quite corrupt.

    going back to NATO, without the US, and to a lesser extent GB, there really isn't a NATO. no other European country posses any significant military, and more importantly, none have the desire or stomach to act militarily. again, not necessarily a bad thing. but, it is what it is.

    I think the greater strength and influence is shifting more towards economic ties, and trade blocks. I think, for example, the EU wields far more power economically than it does either individually, acting through NATO, or the UN.

  23. #23
    no other European country posses any significant military, and more importantly, none have the desire or stomach to act militarily
    Tell that to the *** European dead in Afghanistan:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaliti...in_Afghanistan

    Yes, their casualties are fairly low, but they still got stick in the fight, and those men are still dead. NATO doesn't lack for sack.

  24. #24
    It's taken me some time to step up and register for this
    But I spend time on here every day, reading thoughts all of you had and this conversation more than sparked my interest enough to join in.


    The original game, whether people would care to admit it or not, CLEARLY had obvious underlying meanings in the plot, in the story of where things can EASILY head.

    The second one was a little bit different, but the first had connotations that stood as so real possibilities it was almost scary.

    There's another game like that, MGS4. If any of you had ever beaten it, you'd see.
    How easy it would be for the World to sit in a war state. It would be so easy for states to depend on a War Economy. Enterprises and Corporations will be reaping benefits from such, and here we are at the start of HR.

    I'm nearly positive something similar will happen. I mean we're already on the path..

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by tartarus_sauce
    Tell that to the *** European dead in Afghanistan:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaliti...in_Afghanistan

    Yes, their casualties are fairly low, but they still got stick in the fight, and those men are still dead. NATO doesn't lack for sack.


    But what percentage of Europeans actually support the war in Afghanistan? How many countries have pulled out and would they still support it if those causalities were increased by 10X? I highly doubt it. If the US weren't in there taking the lions share of the cost and casualties, would any European country except possible GB even be there?

    if every country but the US and GB pull out of NATO, NATO isn't significantly weakened. if the US and GB pull out, there isn't really a NATO anymore. no country is going to be terribly frightened of Germany, France, Spain or the other smaller countries of Europe. hell, the Germans aren't even allowed much of an army, the Netherlands has actually unionized theirs. They've lived under the US security blanket for 50 years.

    now, don't take the wrong impression away. I'm not dissing any other country or their military. but to suggest they could rise up to dominate or even significantly influence the world is a little, out there. IMO

    now compare that to the considerable economic power they have. In that arena they can greatly effect the behavior of other countries.

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