View Poll Results: Opinion on All-Star Batman & Robin #1-10

Voters
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  • Liked it

    12 60.00%
  • Mixed feelings.

    5 25.00%
  • Disliked it.

    3 15.00%

Thread: All Star Batman & Robin discussion thread

All Star Batman & Robin discussion thread

  1. #51
    Originally Posted by batmanboy11
    I picked up the tpb of issues #1-9 and was not impressed. The thing that bothers me most is that Batman enjoys violence and causing pain. This Batman's goal is to hurt and punish evil doers more than it is to help people and I do not like that one bit. It also bothers me that Batman (and all the characters) go from being normal in Miller's year one, to the bat-*bleep* crazy they are in All Star. Hopefully the last six issues that release next year are better.
    You just listed my favorite Batman qualities.

    Why does everyone want Batman to be so gentle, kind & sane?!!
    W.W.B.D. What Would Batman Do?

  2. #52
    Nobody wants Batman to be gentle, kind and sane. However, going as far as Miller did in ASBAR is the major criticism of the book for a reason.

    People like Batman to be dark, brooding, grumpy and a little messed up. Most people don't like Batman to be a sadistic psychopath who gets turned on by the violence and chaos he creates, physically abuses both a 12 year old kid and the closest thing he has to a father, throws molotov cocktaila at people and forces that same kid to hunt, kill and eat rats and bats to survive. Theres a difference between dark and brooding Batman and psychotic Batman, just like theres a difference between Adam West Batman and dark and brooding Batman.

    However, criticizing Batman's behaviour in the book because "its not how Batman should behave" is just bollocks IMO because like Drazer said its Miller's interpretation and the story is about Batman regaining his humanity.
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  3. #53
    Originally Posted by Zur-en-ah
    when is this restarting? I for one really enjoyed it
    Welcome to the club

    Originally Posted by batmanboy11
    I picked up the tpb of issues #1-9 and was not impressed. The thing that bothers me most is that Batman enjoys violence and causing pain. This Batman's goal is to hurt and punish evil doers more than it is to help people and I do not like that one bit. It also bothers me that Batman (and all the characters) go from being normal in Miller's year one, to the bat-*bleep* crazy they are in All Star. Hopefully the last six issues that release next year are better.
    This is Miller's Batman universe and he has explained that Batman has pretty much gone off the deep end due to his fights with criminals. He has also explained that this Batman has gotten cocky from this as well. And just because it's not the "mainstream" Batman doesn't make it bad. This Batman is akin to the one in TDKR. Miller has said that this Batman is MEANT to be off putting, so it's understandable if you don't like him, but I mean really? Just because Batman isn't how you want him to be doesn't make the book worse.

    Originally Posted by Matches Malone
    You just listed my favorite Batman qualities.

    Why does everyone want Batman to be so gentle, kind & sane?!!
    I honestly have no idea. Once you get past the fact that this isn't your mainstream Batman, it's a great book.

  4. #54
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    Batman was already laughing abit in Year One, but as i've already stated he's gone crazy from all the lunatics hes had to fight alone. This is the 3rd year of Batman and already Robin's influence is making Batman see his error and thus the story continues with Batman becoming more human.
    I would love it if they introduced Robin this way, how much darker could you get?
    Also as you stated this comic is based after the first three years of his Batman career, this is also Nolans third year of Batman beginning SOOO the next installment after Nolans trilogy should show a more crazed Batman (after loosing his love Rachel, Ras al ghoul destrying his home, beigng chased by the cops, Joker to name a few). It would be a brilliant opportunity for them to introduce a strong Robin character that plays an important central role in the story rather than just throw him in purley for the sale of action figures!

  5. #55
    Originally Posted by xxhanzyxx
    I would love it if they introduced Robin this way, how much darker could you get?
    Also as you stated this comic is based after the first three years of his Batman career, this is also Nolans third year of Batman beginning SOOO the next installment after Nolans trilogy should show a more crazed Batman (after loosing his love Rachel, Ras al ghoul destrying his home, beigng chased by the cops, Joker to name a few). It would be a brilliant opportunity for them to introduce a strong Robin character that plays an important central role in the story rather than just throw him in purley for the sale of action figures!
    Christopher Nolan already stated that Robin will never appear so long as he's directing. Christian Bale has also threatened to leave if Robin appears. And I'm glad we're fellow fans of ASBAR

  6. #56
    Originally Posted by A Dark Knight
    Christopher Nolan already stated that Robin will never appear so long as he's directing. Christian Bale has also threatened to leave if Robin appears. And I'm glad we're fellow fans of ASBAR
    BUT after the third installment from Nolan, with a new director ;0)

  7. #57
    Originally Posted by Matches Malone
    You just listed my favorite Batman qualities.

    Why does everyone want Batman to be so gentle, kind & sane?!!
    I couldn't agree more ...I think maybe that's why so many took offence to ASBAR, because it was such a radical interpretation of Batman

    But thats what I've always loved the most about Batman. He doesn't have any super-powers, just an intense drive that fuels all the ultra-training he's undergone ( ...and that drive harks back to something as harrowing as seen his folks killed in front of him as a kid)

    If you think about it ... any other kind of similar story today would def result in the protagonist being something of a psycho / sadist ... jeez, the guy dresses up as a bat and likes to swing around rooftops at night whilst terrorising criminals and beating them to a pulp

    Just about every person who has worked Batman - from comics, to TV, books and films - has said that is what one of the most intriguing things about the character is ... that he's really just a stone's throw away from being like the nutters he hunts

    Miller just took this premise and multiplied it to the nth degree ... whilst making it as comic-visual-friendly as he could (er, Jim Lee!)

    whenever stuffs split fans right down the middle to the extent of "love-it / hate-it", its usually a good sign that they're doing something right by shaking up the status quo

    Frank Miller and Jim Lee are comic legends. Batman is one of (if not the most) legendary characters in comic. ASBAR is not the train-wreck a lot of folk think it is ... I think it could prove to be a very important piece in Batman's canon ... c'mon, remember Frank Miller was the guy that penned Year One, and you can't deny that was a major game-changer in the history of Batman

    (damn, wrote a lot there -- sorry if it seemed lecture-like -- I just think this subject is a good one)

  8. #58
    Originally Posted by A Dark Knight



    This is Miller's Batman universe and he has explained that Batman has pretty much gone off the deep end due to his fights with criminals. He has also explained that this Batman has gotten cocky from this as well. And just because it's not the "mainstream" Batman doesn't make it bad. This Batman is akin to the one in TDKR. Miller has said that this Batman is MEANT to be off putting, so it's understandable if you don't like him, but I mean really? Just because Batman isn't how you want him to be doesn't make the book worse.


    Honestly as much as the new characterization bothers me, I could maybe get over it if the story around the book was better. IMO pretty much nothing happens after issue 2 until issue 9. Maybe Miller took time off to get his head in the game before he finishes up his story. And considering there will only be 6 more issues, I'm guessing the story will move in a much faster pase.
    Originally Posted by Batman
    If detective work were easy... everyone would be doing it.
    Originally Posted by Nightwing
    Was that... humor? Now I AM worried about you.

  9. #59
    Originally Posted by batmanboy11
    Honestly as much as the new characterization bothers me, I could maybe get over it if the story around the book was better. IMO pretty much nothing happens after issue 2 until issue 9. Maybe Miller took time off to get his head in the game before he finishes up his story. And considering there will only be 6 more issues, I'm guessing the story will move in a much faster pase.
    Not to be harsh, but you're really ignorant aren't you? Jim Lee has stated MANY TIMES that it is HIS FAULT for the delays. And you don't consider Batman kidnapping Dick and making his Robin (main plot), Black Canary's subplot, Jim Gordon's subplot, well, Drazar put it best so let me just post what he said:


    Originally Posted by Drazar
    If people only see it as a summer movie style story, they're missing out alot of the inner monologue and character dialogue. The whole story shows Batman's progression, Dick's establishment to Bruce's world, shows us how dirty Gotham city still is, how Gordon with all the stress from work and his wife being drunk, still takes care of her Daughter who happens to know about Sarah. Barbara knows that her adoptive father loves Sarah and comforts her father by telling her to call her when Gordon is at the peak of his stress.

    We also see Batman very vulnurable here, he's taken Robin onto his holy war on crime, while putting the kid on these ridicilous dangerous situations withouth realizin he had all these years to grief and prepare, he sees his earlier mistakes such as making Dick survive in the cave (which he did himself, during year 1-2) withouth anyone's assistance, ofcourse Alfred shows us how much he cares for the family and assists Dick, and we see how thruouth worried Alfred has always been about Bruce's health, yet he continously assists Bruce on these missions.

    There is alot of emotion, development and threat at stake around Gotham from the criminals to JLA's presence questioning Batman. It's all there readable in the comic book.
    There you go. If you still don't understand, I feel really, really bad for you

    Anyway....

    Originally Posted by Zur-en-ah
    I couldn't agree more ...I think maybe that's why so many took offence to ASBAR, because it was such a radical interpretation of Batman

    But thats what I've always loved the most about Batman. He doesn't have any super-powers, just an intense drive that fuels all the ultra-training he's undergone ( ...and that drive harks back to something as harrowing as seen his folks killed in front of him as a kid)

    If you think about it ... any other kind of similar story today would def result in the protagonist being something of a psycho / sadist ... jeez, the guy dresses up as a bat and likes to swing around rooftops at night whilst terrorising criminals and beating them to a pulp

    Just about every person who has worked Batman - from comics, to TV, books and films - has said that is what one of the most intriguing things about the character is ... that he's really just a stone's throw away from being like the nutters he hunts

    Miller just took this premise and multiplied it to the nth degree ... whilst making it as comic-visual-friendly as he could (er, Jim Lee!)

    whenever stuffs split fans right down the middle to the extent of "love-it / hate-it", its usually a good sign that they're doing something right by shaking up the status quo

    Frank Miller and Jim Lee are comic legends. Batman is one of (if not the most) legendary characters in comic. ASBAR is not the train-wreck a lot of folk think it is ... I think it could prove to be a very important piece in Batman's canon ... c'mon, remember Frank Miller was the guy that penned Year One, and you can't deny that was a major game-changer in the history of Batman

    (damn, wrote a lot there -- sorry if it seemed lecture-like -- I just think this subject is a good one)
    Welcome to the club, buddy!
    I'm glad we all enjoy the book and I definitely agree with all your points.


    Originally Posted by xxhanzyxx
    BUT after the third installment from Nolan, with a new director ;0)
    Um, Nolan said that he's concluding the story with the third movie. Meaning NO sequels whatsoever. There would just have to be another reboot. Here's what he said about that: "My brother is working on the screenplay. We came up with a story that we are very excited about. We particularly like where we are taking the characters and what the ending is... There are things for me to be very excited about in addressing the characters again. But ultimately it always comes down to the script, and can we make a great film from this? That's something I will firmly be turning my attention to figuring out fairly soon." It will be, he said, "the finishing of a story rather than infinitely blowing up the balloon and expanding the story."

  10. #60
    Okay FYI I literally have not looked up anything All Star releated as I had just read the book like last week, so I did not know anything except that it had been delayed some how. And as for plot I may have exagerated but I don't think A LOT has happened.

    EDIT: Opinions aside, does anyone know how Barbara ended up with Jim? I have only read the TPB once so I missed issue #10 and may just not remember an explanation.
    EDIT 2: I looked back at the chapter that introduces Barbara and did not see an explanation.
    Originally Posted by Batman
    If detective work were easy... everyone would be doing it.
    Originally Posted by Nightwing
    Was that... humor? Now I AM worried about you.

  11. #61
    Originally Posted by A Dark Knight
    Not to be harsh, but you're really ignorant aren't you? Jim Lee has stated MANY TIMES that it is HIS FAULT for the delays. And you don't consider Batman kidnapping Dick and making his Robin (main plot), Black Canary's subplot, Jim Gordon's subplot, well, Drazar put it best so let me just post what he said:
    The thing is, the story is currently 10 issues in length and will go one for another six for a total of 16.

    By comparison, Batman: Year One told its story in 4, The Dark Knight Returns told its story in the equivalent of 8 and Watchmen told its story in 12. Yes, thats right. Watchmen, which is a much more complex than All-Star Batmand and Robin, what with it creating an entirely new universe with new characters (all of whom become beautifully fleshed out), multiple subplots and loads and loads of story, is only 12 issues compared to ASBAR's 16.

    For a story to not have as many characters or complexities as Watchmen but still end up being longer its quite out there and the common complaint of pacing is not one that isn't justified. At 4 bucks an issue thats 40 bucks for all the issues so far and another 24 for the rest of it for a total of 64 dollars for the entire story. When you're shelling out that much dough for a story with no end in sight and reads like everything is being dragged on as long as possible you tend to get a little cranky about it, especially when other writers are seemingly able to do "Moore" with less.

    Oh God, I think I've done it again.

    And this is off-topic but there will definitely be Batman sequels after Batman 3. Nolan's story arc (which is basically the birth of Batman) will come to an end and he will leave but they will not reboot Batman again, they will continue. Warner has the final say and they won't let Nolan do anything that rules out future Batman movies.
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  12. #62
    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    The thing is, the story is currently 10 issues in length and will go one for another six for a total of 16.

    By comparison, Batman: Year One told its story in 4, The Dark Knight Returns told its story in the equivalent of 8 and Watchmen told its story in 12. Yes, thats right. Watchmen, which is a much more complex than All-Star Batmand and Robin, what with it creating an entirely new universe with new characters (all of whom become beautifully fleshed out), multiple subplots and loads and loads of story, is only 12 issues compared to ASBAR's 16.

    For a story to not have as many characters or complexities as Watchmen but still end up being longer its quite out there and the common complaint of pacing is not one that isn't justified. At 4 bucks an issue thats 40 bucks for all the issues so far and another 24 for the rest of it for a total of 64 dollars for the entire story. When you're shelling out that much dough for a story with no end in sight and reads like everything is being dragged on as long as possible you tend to get a little cranky about it, especially when other writers are seemingly able to do "Moore" with less.

    Oh God, I think I've done it again.
    ^That.

    EDIT: Also I agree that there will be more Batman movies in the same universe after Batman 3, providing Nolan doesn't kill Batman off.
    Originally Posted by Batman
    If detective work were easy... everyone would be doing it.
    Originally Posted by Nightwing
    Was that... humor? Now I AM worried about you.

  13. #63
    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    The thing is, the story is currently 10 issues in length and will go one for another six for a total of 16.

    By comparison, Batman: Year One told its story in 4, The Dark Knight Returns told its story in the equivalent of 8 and Watchmen told its story in 12. Yes, thats right. Watchmen, which is a much more complex than All-Star Batmand and Robin, what with it creating an entirely new universe with new characters (all of whom become beautifully fleshed out), multiple subplots and loads and loads of story, is only 12 issues compared to ASBAR's 16.

    For a story to not have as many characters or complexities as Watchmen but still end up being longer its quite out there and the common complaint of pacing is not one that isn't justified. At 4 bucks an issue thats 40 bucks for all the issues so far and another 24 for the rest of it for a total of 64 dollars for the entire story. When you're shelling out that much dough for a story with no end in sight and reads like everything is being dragged on as long as possible you tend to get a little cranky about it, especially when other writers are seemingly able to do "Moore" with less.

    Oh God, I think I've done it again.

    And this is off-topic but there will definitely be Batman sequels after Batman 3. Nolan's story arc (which is basically the birth of Batman) will come to an end and he will leave but they will not reboot Batman again, they will continue. Warner has the final say and they won't let Nolan do anything that rules out future Batman movies.
    Originally Posted by batmanboy11
    ^That.

    EDIT: Also I agree that there will be more Batman movies in the same universe after Batman 3, providing Nolan doesn't kill Batman off.

    You know, because all you guys complain about how much you hate All-Star Batman & Robin because of Frank Miller's writing, I'm starting to appreciate it more. Some of you are saying he's not the real Batman, he's too cocky.

    Doesn't a writer have the right to make his characters however he chooses? Sure there's some limitations but its nice once in a while for someone to step out of the ordinary and let the character loose. Otherwise, he's too predictable and it leaves the audience uninterested.

    Sure the repeating lines can be strange, but they aren't out of place. They're repeated to emphasize a point or show emotion (Vicki Vale going OMG 4 or 5 times). Well, you can't please everyone

  14. #64
    Where are the complaints about Batman's character or the repeating lines in the two posts you quoted?

    Why would you quote two posts then go off about something unreleated?
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  15. #65
    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    Where are the complaints about Batman's character or the repeating lines in the two posts you quoted?

    Why would you quote two posts then go off about something unreleated?
    Everything isn't directed at you! Sometimes I'm just addressing all of the people who are complaining in here. One or two posters didn't like Batman's character. Half of my posts aren't even directed at you!


  16. #66
    we should really do a poll ...

  17. #67
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    Originally Posted by batmanboy11
    EDIT: Opinions aside, does anyone know how Barbara ended up with Jim? I have only read the TPB once so I missed issue #10 and may just not remember an explanation.
    EDIT 2: I looked back at the chapter that introduces Barbara and did not see an explanation.
    The usual story is that she's adopted, but her two appearences haven't delved into any further detail. So it's a wait and see, her story definatly isn't done yet.

    By comparison, Batman: Year One told its story in 4, The Dark Knight Returns told its story in the equivalent of 8 and Watchmen told its story in 12. Yes, thats right. Watchmen, which is a much more complex than All-Star Batmand and Robin, what with it creating an entirely new universe with new characters (all of whom become beautifully fleshed out), multiple subplots and loads and loads of story, is only 12 issues compared to ASBAR's 16.
    It's always fun to compare a finished story with an incomplete story. Complex? What on earth was complex about Watchmen?
    For a story to not have as many characters or complexities as Watchmen but still end up being longer its quite out there and the common complaint of pacing is not one that isn't justified. At 4 bucks an issue thats 40 bucks for all the issues so far and another 24 for the rest of it for a total of 64 dollars for the entire story. When you're shelling out that much dough for a story with no end in sight and reads like everything is being dragged on as long as possible you tend to get a little cranky about it, especially when other writers are seemingly able to do "Moore" with less.
    How are things so dragged when the story isn't finished? Pessimism regarding All-Star Batman is pretty silly, considering you're aware how much story Miller can tell. Batman Year One was 4 normal issues, wheres TDKR was 4 50 page stories, so we could say it's 8 issues.

    And again how we're Watchmen characters complex? Sure their morals we're judging, but was it really as diffucult as some people make it out? Not at all. It's a highly overrated book that only accomplished bad things for the comic book medium. Sure you can tell me how comic books we're started to be taken serious thanks to TDKR and Watchmen, but what they ultimately accomplished was nothing more than the grim darkness of the 90s era.

    Again how can you say the plots are being dragged? They all are about Robin's introduction, wheres Barbara goes with the Gordon subplot and Black Canary on the vigilantism in Gotham overall. How are things really that dragged? Can you go in depth or is it just something you wish to state, but not get anymore further into? And if thats the case, why say it in the first place?

    Originally Posted by A Dark Knight
    You know, because all you guys complain about how much you hate All-Star Batman & Robin because of Frank Miller's writing, I'm starting to appreciate it more. Some of you are saying he's not the real Batman, he's too cocky, he's an a**hole.
    Don't try to put out swear words that would be censored. Forum rules and all.
    Doesn't a writer have the right to make his characters however he chooses?
    Frank Miller and Grant Morrison we're completely free to do whatever they wished with the All-Star titles. The whole premise of All-Star was to make A-talent people work on great stories that didn't need the readers to invest on any comics beforehand.

  18. #68
    It's always fun to compare a finished story with an incomplete story. Complex? What on earth was complex about Watchmen?
    Almost everything in that book was complex.
    Sometimes, doing something wrong is what it takes to do something right.

  19. #69
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    If that so, surely this whole forum can tell me what was so complex? Is the story deep? Yes. Is it emotional? Yes. Is it complex? I don't believe so.

  20. #70
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    If that so, surely this whole forum can tell me what was so complex? Is the story deep? Yes. Is it emotional? Yes. Is it complex? I don't believe so.
    Define your view of a complex story.
    Sometimes, doing something wrong is what it takes to do something right.

  21. #71
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    Send you a private message. Let's keep the thread on Frank Miller's Batman!

  22. #72
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    Originally Posted by Drazar
    Don't try to put out swear words that would be censored. Forum rules and all.
    Along with this, I'll add something, from the Neutral Guy over here

    Originally Posted by A Dark Knight
    Everything isn't directed at you! Sometimes I'm just addressing all of the people who are complaining in here. One or two posters didn't like Batman's character. Half of my posts aren't even directed at you!

    It's only common sense in any forum that when you quote someone, or more than one person, unless you state anything in your reply to suggest otherwise, your reply is directed solely at that person/persons, or in this case, the two people only you quoted in succession. There's no reason to think otherwise here. I'll make a suggestion that might fall on deaf ears, as it were, but you made this thread originally asking if this book series was good and worth picking up. Then, you read it in like one day and fell so madly in love with it, you've been vehement in defending it against anyone with an opposing view ever since, to the point that you're really attacking literally anyone who comes close to saying something bad about it.

    I'd suggest taking things back down a few notches. Maybe shift gears from overdrive, back down to like first, or second, just for a while. See how that goes...

    Now then, I leave you crazies to continue trying to justify your personal opinions to one another (Note, the "you crazies" signifies this last statement is talking to everyone, not simply the person I quoted. This is how it's done *strikes forum pose* (whatever the hell that is...))

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    If that so, surely this whole forum can tell me what was so complex? Is the story deep? Yes. Is it emotional? Yes. Is it complex? I don't believe so.
    c'mon Draz -- even if you're a cerebral comic genius -- you gotta admit that Watchmen is a complex piece of work

    here's why:

    - post modern revision of the Cold War
    - (sometimes cryptic) metaphors for classic superhero archetypes
    - the narrative-within-a-narrative structure (intertextuality, this is called )
    - the religious and behavioural symbolism
    - Orwellian and anti-capitalism themes
    - Nihilistic and existentialist sub-texts

    how's that for a start??

  24. #74
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    The day i'm a genius is the day i'm the last man standing in Earth. I talked this over with Freeze and while writing, i pretty much came to this: Characters are complex, which makes the story as a whole complex. The premise of the story is rather straightforward, but the characters aren't, but hey it is the characters that actually did make the book, they we're emotional and well written, but the companies only saw the grim darkness in them.

  25. #75
    yep, I agree ... but I'm talking about the entirety of the Watchmen as a whole ... not just the characters, not just the plot ... as a piece of work all-in, its pretty complex

    (what're the chances that Mr Alan Moore will ever come back to Batman?? slim to minimal considering how much he hates "the man")

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