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Thread: Third Person View

Third Person View

  1. #51
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    Originally Posted by MyImmortal
    Don't worry, the troll jokes will subside soon and then everything will get deadly serious.
    I was soooo right...
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  2. #52
    Hums, some games like mirror's edge, and condemned proven that takedowns and platforming could be well made in FP view.
    The problem of most FP games is the fact they use a "floating gun" and mostly static animations.
    When in TP game you will see your character using his hands while climbing a ladder, you won't see that in FP games with floating guns.

    But the body awareness changed pretty much the first person shooters and allowed them to have gameplays usually restricted for third person games.
    Like platforming for example. (I mean platforming on its complex form)

    I guess I think Frank have the point about the cover thing, since most TP shooter players swear only with cover systems games, but that's not the case of FP ones
    If you want to make enemies; just dumb something down
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  3. #53
    Originally Posted by MyImmortal
    I was soooo right...
    Patern recognition.

  4. #54
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    Body awareness is the logical hybrid evolution and solution to this whole debate anyway. Again, let's look at what I consider facts here. Most serious third person shooters now tend to zoom-in over the shoulders when you aim, because aiming in strict third person is clumsy at best. Gears of War cheats its own viewing perspective, when you look at it really. Then you have cover systems based on stunts which benefit from the third person view because they give you a body awareness which traditional first person view cannot compete with.

    First person view with body awareness, when done craftfully of course, covers all grounds. It's more difficult to design, and it takes some getting used to to play, but ultimately it is, objectively, the view which puts you the most in control, and at the center of the action. It's not a question of preference. Whether or not a story is interesting is subjective, but whether or not mechanics serve the full potential of the game is something which can be objectively constructed and carefully designed. Very little good things happened by accident in DX, a game which still represents today, despite its flaws, an epitome of game engineering.

    I was soooo right...
    They asked for a valid reason why first person would serve the game better than third. I've given about four so far, and all I'm told is that it's all a question of personal taste. As if appreciation of something was always this mystical, magical event no one can explain. Everything, including arts, has patterns which can be broken down at least to a certain degree of objectivity.

  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by demon boy
    The rest of your comments seem to try to portray your own personal preferences as concrete facts. Not everyone would agree with your opinion that first person games provide better control than 3d person.
    He's not the only one. And specifically about 3rd person cover: there's a poll that shows that most people here would like either Classic Lean or First Person Cover. (It's here in this forum somewhere.)


    Even if you limit your genre to shooters, there are people who swear by Gears of War.
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  6. #56
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    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    They asked for a valid reason why first person would serve the game better than third. I've given about four or five so far, and all I'm told is that it's all a question of personal taste. As if appreciation of something was always this mystical, magical event no one can explain. Everything, including arts, has patterns which can be broken down at least to a certain degree of objectivity.
    Yeah, it's all good that people are no longer posting troll pictures.
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  7. #57
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    Originally Posted by IOOI
    He's not the only one. And specifically about 3rd person cover: there's a poll that shows that most people here would like either Classic Lean or First Person Cover. (It's here in this forum somewhere.)
    Buried ten pages back, most likely.

    I still think full FP Body awareness is the ideal way to go here, like Frank. TP is designed to give you extra awareness of your surroundings but at the cost of identity with the avatar character. I personally prefer that identification in character and story-rich games; it helps put me in the situation and take things more seriously. Third person is fine in the case of Batman, where the goal is a cinematic/comic book experience, or in Just Cause 2 where the goal is stunt-driven arcade action. Leaving out the original DX for a minute, HR takes itself seriously as a story, world, and character-driven game so for this context, first person is ideal. I'm glad that the designers recognize this and did not make the game third person, unlike some other project. That they are introducing third person elements is an odd choice, and probably one that they feel will add to the experience in certain circumstances. I want to see it firsthand before deciding how much it affects the experience.
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  8. #58
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    Originally Posted by Mr. K
    That they are introducing third person elements is an odd choice, and probably one that they feel will add to the experience in certain circumstances. I want to see it firsthand before deciding how much it affects the experience.
    The 3P viewpoint felt fine in CofRid/EFBB. It didn't break immersion for me and I DID like to see the environment around me during certain actions, it definitely added to the experience. If it works like CoR, I'll be perfectly happy.
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  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by MyImmortal
    The 3P viewpoint felt fine in CofRid/EFBB. It didn't break immersion for me and I DID like to see the environment around me during certain actions, it definitely added to the experience. If it works like CoR, I'll be perfectly happy.
    CoR? Explain it for me please?
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  10. #60
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    Originally Posted by Mr. K
    CoR? Explain it for me please?
    So sorry. Chronicles of Riddick/Escape From Butcher Bay.
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  11. #61
    So using a terminal then swapping views is immersion keeping ?
    Hopefully you didn't have to do that after each move, but personally that's not immersion keeping.
    But in DX3 game it will be each time you take cover and you make take downs as far as I know the takedowns in riddick were in first person
    If you want to make enemies; just dumb something down
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  12. #62
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    Originally Posted by Blade_hunter
    So using a terminal then swapping views is immersion keeping ?
    Hopefully you didn't have to do that after each move, but personally that's not immersion keeping.
    But in DX3 game it will be each time you take cover and you make take downs as far as I know the takedowns in riddick were in first person
    For me, playing CoR, was fine, yes. Didn't find the 3P annoying or frustrating at all.
    Hear what you're saying with the takedowns; I guess we'll have to see how this works for DX:HR.
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  13. #63
    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    Body awareness is the logical hybrid evolution and solution to this whole debate anyway. Again, let's look at what I consider facts here. Most serious third person shooters now tend to zoom-in over the shoulders when you aim, because aiming in strict third person is clumsy at best. Gears of War cheats its own viewing perspective, when you look at it really. Then you have cover systems based on stunts which benefit from the third person view because they give you a body awareness which traditional first person view cannot compete with.

    First person view with body awareness, when done craftfully of course, covers all grounds. It's more difficult to design, and it takes some getting used to to play, but ultimately it is, objectively, the view which puts you the most in control, and at the center of the action. It's not a question of preference. Whether or not a story is interesting is subjective, but whether or not mechanics serve the full potential of the game is something which can be objectively constructed and carefully designed. Very little good things happened by accident in DX, a game which still represents today, despite its flaws, an epitome of game engineering.



    They asked for a valid reason why first person would serve the game better than third. I've given about four so far, and all I'm told is that it's all a question of personal taste. As if appreciation of something was always this mystical, magical event no one can explain. Everything, including arts, has patterns which can be broken down at least to a certain degree of objectivity.
    Your reasoning is sound and I actually agree with a lot of what you said but the notion that 1st person games provide better controls than 3d person games remains an opinion. It is not even remotely close to factual. A fact is something that cannot be disputed. This is a personal preference. I would hope that the distinction is obvious.

    There are gamers out there who, when asked which video game has the best controls that they've ever experienced, would name a 3d person game. There are people who would say that it's Prince of Persia, Mario Galaxy, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect 2, Ratchet and Clank, Ocarina of Time, Gears of War, etc., etc. It's a question of opinion.

    You should read your own comments. You say, "Let's look at what I consider facts" and then proceed to write that third person shooters zoom in because 3d person controls are "clumsy at best". This is a profoundly non-factual statement. You personally find the controls in 3d person shooters to be clumsy. There are plenty of people who have found certain 3d person games to be razor sharp. Your own comfort level with certain types of games is not the end all be all.

    There are so many variables that you are ignoring. First of all, the platform you play the game on and the controller or keyboard that you use is a key thing to consider. Secondly, there is no blanket description of 1st or 3d person games that holds true for every game that utilizes that perspective. The games vary.

    Anyways, this is sort of a pointless argument.

  14. #64
    I don't think that CoR truly benefited from it, to me it was just there. It was nice seeing how badass Riddick is now and then, but I didn't take the game anywhere near as seriously as I would a Deus Ex game because I knew I was playing a digital representation of Vin Diesel.
    Interestingly, though, that game also has stealth killing animations in first person, which are actually really cool. It serves as more fuel to the argument of why you don't need third person to have badass 'special moves' - not that those things suit a Deus Ex game in any way despite that.

  15. #65
    Frustrating isn't the word, I was never frustrated because of view switches in some games, just annoyed, when they come too often, but that's the same with cutscenes, I hated that aspect in some games, when you kill 3 guys, then cutscene, 3 guys and re cutscene.
    That's why I never complained about the convos in DX That's because the view switch didn't happened that often.
    I'm not angry for example about the fact they made FP convos, but much more happy as long as they doesn't look like in oblivion
    If you want to make enemies; just dumb something down
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  16. #66
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    Well of course first person view is the sh..poop, but its just a matter of taste. Why not have the option there if someone likes to play it that way. It wont change your experience!

    As for why i called OP a troll? Well... Cinematic? third person gives fights a way more cinematic feel? What the hell man. Go drink your poop juice somewhere else!

  17. #67
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    there is a difference between truth and fact...

    ...but I agree with Frank on this.

    Specifically for a game like Deus Ex, to me, TP feels like cheating (being able to see more than the in game character actually does) and makes interacting with objects within the environment more challenging - eg targetting and picking something up off the floor is easier in FP.

  18. #68
    Originally Posted by Mr. K
    Buried ten pages back, most likely.
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=91480

    There you go:


    I'd say it was overwhelmingly unanimous against third person gameplay.

    /cue planted troll responses "But it's all just opinions, man!"

  19. #69
    Originally Posted by minus0ne
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=91480

    There you go:


    I'd say it was overwhelmingly unanimous against third person gameplay.

    /cue plants' responses "But it's all just opinions, man!"

    An internet forum poll does not generate facts. It merely reflects the opinions of the forum. Obviously in a forum made up largely of PC gamers who were DX1 fans, the results will be somewhat skewed. The fact that the "lean key" option won out makes that abundantly clear (for console gamers, there are no keys).

  20. #70
    Originally Posted by minus0ne
    /cue planted troll responses "But it's all just opinions, man!"
    Originally Posted by demon boy
    An internet forum poll does not generate facts.
    Originally Posted by demon boy
    The fact that the "lean key" option won out makes that abundantly clear

  21. #71
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    Originally Posted by DemonNick
    Look, I don't even get what you all have against third person mode other than that it works better on consoles than first person and that third person in Deus Ex 1 was terrible and only accessible from the console.

    I just want to know if the game will have it as an option or only as a contextual thing, and if the former, will it be all under-developed and rubbish like third person in Fallout 3?
    I think the issue stems from the simple fact the games have always been first-person shooters. I know I personally already don't like the concept of third-person moments (Although I suppose I can deal with that if I must) but to shift the whole game's perspective in that way (Even as an option) would simply not line up with what the series is. I have nothing against third-person, in fact, I love it. But it does not belong in Deus Ex.
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  22. #72
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    Agreed, but the occasional 3P "viewpoint" is fine for me (personally). I'm not really worried that it's included in DXHR at this point... just hope it works good.
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  23. #73
    Originally Posted by MyImmortal
    Agreed, but the occasional 3P "viewpoint" is fine for me (personally). I'm not really worried that it's included in DXHR at this point... just hope it works good.
    I typically don't mind third-person (especially after its masterful implementation in Batman: AA), but I don't understand the cover system at all where you get to see what's behind the corner. I equally hate Mass Effect/Gears of War cover system, which pretty much makes your gameplay into a shiny Space Invaders - find cover, right-click, left-click. Rinse and repeat x15.

  24. #74
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    Originally Posted by minus0ne
    Originally Posted by minus0ne
    /cue planted troll responses "But it's all just opinions, man!"
    Originally Posted by demon boy
    An internet forum poll does not generate facts.
    Originally Posted by demon boy
    The fact that the "lean key" option won out makes that abundantly clear
    Saaaweet!

    Originally Posted by DemonNick
    Except the only reason first person is better for that is that in the first game you moused over things and right-clicked to interact. Let's face it. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a multiplatform game. You will probably be interacting with your environment in a less simulation-y way due to the fact that the game has to be playable with a gamepad. No matter what, it's pretty likely that your primary means of interacting with your environment will probably be a context-sensitive use button.
    I forgot to say. Congratulations! You just explained what "dumbing down" and "consolization" mean.



















  25. #75
    I play console games and thus with a gamepad and have no problems aiming or with the controls in general. I hope to make this abundantly clear. Just because someone plays on a console doesn't mean they want simple gameplay and casual experiences. I used to play pc but due to technical and financial issues I switched to console. I still crave deep, complex games.
    I am Parado! God of opposites, contradictions and paradoxes!

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