Thread: "Grenades" - New Weapon/Item

"Grenades" - New Weapon/Item

  1. #51
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    You should know that I'm one of the people least concerned with changing things up a little for thief 4. I get into nice heated debates here all the time about what change is acceptable and what change taints the game and makes it what it is not.

    This is not a change that threatens thief.

    However, I sympathize with the argument of avoiding too much redundancy in tool sets, as it is a simple waste of development time and resources. Your scenarios only bring to my mind the idea of having multiple ways to objectives. If the devs EVER forced me to try and get through a well lit room with 10 guards like you have, and there was no other possible way out, they've designed the level poorly, because you can never assume that a player has X in his inventory except the blackjack or short sword or a bow.

    A smoke bomb is a cool thing, but it's niches are already filled with current tools, and I'd rather have the time spent on it spent elsewhere.
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  2. #52
    Originally Posted by esme
    I was quite enamoured of the double ended rope arrow idea I came up with

    I had all sorts of useful things for it to do

    there was a zip line, a trip wire, a tight rope or makeshift platform to get at something high or jump on something below, you could hang under it, tightrope walk it or slide along it, you could fire one end into a wall walk past a door and shoot the other end into a wall and the rope between them would hold the door shut

    I engineered all sorts of situations where it would be a life saver, I even came up with ways of breaking it, guards could cut the deployed rope in which case you got two arrows at either end, if you shot one end into brick it broke so the other end reverted to being an ordinary rope arrow, if the second target was too far from the first then the arrow would reach the distance and then recoil slightly falling in an arc to the floor

    you retrieved the pair by frobbing either end

    it was glorious, it was useful, it would solve lots of problems

    then I realised that the problems didn't actually exist and I was just creating them to justify my wonderful rope arrows existence

    and it all fell apart at that point, it was a nice tool and it solved nice problems, none of which couldn't be solved in a different way
    Well apart from sounding like a clunky feature for operation (2 shots required, tediously slow tight rope walking, good chance of falling etc.) there's nothing wrong with that idea if it's considered as part of the players toolkit during the design phase, well balanced within the gameplay mechanics and situations are built into the game for using it. Of course you're going to think it's a failure of an idea if you're looking for situations for it to apply in the original games. This is quite simply because the original games were not designed with this tool in mind.

    the smoke bomb is the same, there are existing tools that will already solve the problems

    want to be unseen by the enemy ? ok here's a couple of ways using the existing tools
    1. make them look somewhere else with a distraction tool
    2. lure them out of position so their viewing angle is compromised
    3. lure them somewhere you can deal with them on your terms
    4. use a flashbomb
    5. use an invisibility potion

    I have no doubt that you could add to that list with the existing kit, we don't need another weapon for this problem
    All of what you've mentioned accomplish certain things. They can be used tactically to achieve what you want, but quite simply put, none of these do what a smoke screen does.

    Saying that you can accomplish something by one means doesn't rule out the fact that you should not introduce another tactic just because it can accomplish the same task in a different manner.

    I just find it quite entertaining that fans of a stealth game are completely objected to another way to stop them from being seen, especially one that's pacifistic in its manner.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  3. #53
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    A smoke-bomb is more of a magician's trick special effect and shouldn't stop an AI who's character is supposed to be familiar with the terrain, or create a temporary impassable "closed gate", or more slapstick hijinks like oil flasks causing AIs' momentum to throw them off heights, etc. It undermines the much more effective and useful and iconic flashbomb. Any changes the devs make to the basics and simplicity of Thief give themselves more work to do with less pay-off, and all the testing, art, model-building, effects and physics animators and programmers... It's not worth it. Once again, I remind that EM has to prove they can make a Thief game that hits all the right points while being as different and as signature for them as it needs to be. It smacks of trying to also undermine the proliferate magic and alchemy and techno-wizardry of that universe. I'd rather there was a pressure release valve on a steam pipe here and there to blast hot steam, and if the physics and interaction are taken to a modern gaming level, hacking with a blade, throwing a hammer, exploding a mine, or using a fire arrow to burst some steam pipes and boilers would be more of what I'd like to see. More uses for less tools with logical extrapolations.

  4. #54
    Originally Posted by esme
    I'm not working backwards and I'm not saying they built the levels first and then made the tools to fit

    I'm saying the initial design session starts with the concept of the environment and it's denizens and the kinds of problems that are likely to need solving then they come up with the ways of solving those problems maybe tweaking the environment and denizens ideas in the process

    this will continue, round and round until they come up with a list of core concepts and ideas to define the universe

    then they rough out some artwork to see what things might look like

    then they may refine the universe a bit more

    then some time down the way when everybody's happy with the concepts they might actually start to design the level and build the tools and the engine

    the problem comes first then the solution not the other way around
    The core concept of the player's abilities are what is conceived first and then level design is performed to accommodate and take advantage of the skills upon which they have decided to grant them. How they decide on this skills, as you said, is reflective of the environment he is in, but I can't see how using a smoke screen is contradictory to any of the environment that we see Garrett in.

    If a smoke bomb (or another other new tool) is considered in the design, then situations can be inserted into the game to make use of it (like with every other tool we see in Thief).

    Saying that "there's no problem in the Thief universe that needs a smoke bomb/zip line arrow etc... to solve it, therefore it is not needed" is shooting the bird while its still in the cage, because none of the previous games were designed with any of these tools in mind. If, for example, your zip line was included, then it would be very easy to incorporate another insertion point into an AO in several maps. This method of insertion could take a bit of searching through some neighbouring houses to find, but its another way in.

    Options. Not just the same old recycled methods over and over.

    Or it would be an interesting tweak on play if bedrooms of a hotel that you were pilfering happen to share a view of a garden with balconies overlooking it, making moving from one to another (after breaking into one) far more attractive an option than going back out into the hallway to move along the patrolled corridors.

    The whole point of having new tools is so that we have a Thief experience that is new in more than just graphics and mechanics.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  5. #55
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    A smoke-bomb is more of a magician's trick special effect and shouldn't stop an AI who's character is supposed to be familiar with the terrain, or create a temporary impassable "closed gate", or more slapstick hijinks like oil flasks causing AIs' momentum to throw them off heights, etc. It undermines the much more effective and useful and iconic flashbomb.
    I only termed it a smoke bomb because the flash bomb is named so.

    It's not a magicians special trick. You're thinking of these little pellets that magicians drop on the ground and create a ball of smoke around him while he disappears into the trap door.

    The smoke screen I'm talking about is a tactical visual screen that obscures the vision of those who are viewing the area through its AOE.

    It doesn't create a "closed gate" (I don't know where you're pulling this out of), all it does is create an area where guards cannot see into or through and therefore gives cover for Garrett to move unobserved.

    It does nothing to replace the flashbomb, as the flashbomb is dropped at the feet of guards to disorientate and distract for a few seconds while you make a dash out of the room. It's not a meant as a replacement (as I have clearly tried to emphasise in my examples) and it could not be nearly as effective for the purposes that I've stated.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    You should know that I'm one of the people least concerned with changing things up a little for thief 4. I get into nice heated debates here all the time about what change is acceptable and what change taints the game and makes it what it is not.

    This is not a change that threatens thief.

    However, I sympathize with the argument of avoiding too much redundancy in tool sets, as it is a simple waste of development time and resources. Your scenarios only bring to my mind the idea of having multiple ways to objectives. If the devs EVER forced me to try and get through a well lit room with 10 guards like you have, and there was no other possible way out, they've designed the level poorly, because you can never assume that a player has X in his inventory except the blackjack or short sword or a bow.

    A smoke bomb is a cool thing, but it's niches are already filled with current tools, and I'd rather have the time spent on it spent elsewhere.
    There is not a SINGLE tool in this franchise that creates a visual screen, so this point is completely incorrect. The situations I have laid out are not situations that I want as part of the game. They are two blatant situations that I constructed to explain the advantages of a smoke screen visually after explaining the to esme didn't communicate my point.

    And this nonsense that I hear out of every fan on here about "a simple waste of development time and resources" to dismiss everything is just one of the most redundant arguments out there.

    They have to spend the development time on something, you realise?

    They're not going to just recycle Thief 2 with a new graphics engine...
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  6. #56
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    I'd rather have the noisemaker arrow still attract guards and flashbomb still blind all who hear it hit the ground and stare at it, than have them nerfed to justify a new tool. I can't help but be reminded how much I despised the gas bomb, because to justify it's existance they had to nerf the gas arrow to high hell. The gas arrow's new AOE was quartered, while the gas bomb replaced it with the same exact AOE the arrows had in the old games. I was quite perturbed.
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  7. #57
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    The purpose of a smokebomb is not just to create a visual screen - the purpose as you've stated is to distract (noisemaker arrow) and to block the vision of (flashbomb) the guards who see it. A guard who is blind, is just as easily snuck by as one who cannot see you for a smoke screen. It is the same thing, but one is effecting the observer, and the other is effecting what he is observing. A blind man looking over a fence is in the same condition as one staring at a wall - they don't know what lies beyond.
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  8. #58
    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    The purpose of a smokebomb is not just to create a visual screen - the purpose as you've stated is to distract (noisemaker arrow) and to block the vision of (flashbomb) the guards who see it. A guard who is blind, is just as easily snuck by as one who cannot see you for a smoke screen. It is the same thing, but one is effecting the observer, and the other is effecting what he is observing. A blind man looking over a fence is in the same condition as one staring at a wall - they don't know what lies beyond.
    You'll still have your noisemaker and you'll still have your flash bomb. They're not going anywhere because this would be introduced. You seem to misunderstand the situation. Just because one of the applications of this tool serves the purpose of a combination of two other tools does not mean that it is a replacement. There would still be times that noisemakers are needed and still be times when flashbombs are needed.

    I'm also not sure why they'd have to nerf anything. You seem to misunderstand the mechanics of the situation if this is the reasoning you've come to. The only think needing balancing and nerfing would be the range and the area of the smoke effect of the bomb.

    And no, I said one USE of the smoke bomb would be that it could be USED to distract and mislead. Same way that a broadhead can be used to distract guards. Same way they can be used to push buttons. Same way that they and the sword both do damage, but through different means and different applications. But the primary purpose of the broad head is to fire a shaft in an arc to hit a target.

    Same way that the purpose of the smoke bomb is to create a visual smoke screen. Nothing more, nothing less. How you choose to use that tool is up to you.

    Also, a flashbomb does not block the guard's FOV. It temporarily disables the vision of any guards in its immediate flash radius for 2-3 seconds while you make a dash for it. This is a completely different effect as it does not mask Garrett's movement in the same manner.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  9. #59
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    These items fall under the DromEd Hierarchy branch called "Grenades":

  10. #60
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    I'll just say it plain.

    I don't see any use for the smokebomb (with regular occurrence) where I can't utilize the tools currently in the game. Flashbombs don't last 2-3 seconds - it's more like 10 (or it feels alot longer at least).

    I'd rather use those tools, and leave room for work to be done on other things where there would otherwise be a flashbomb.

    If you can find a regularly occurring scenario where a smokebomb fits the bill, you may be able to get some converts - but right now it just doesn't seem like it's worth the time and effort.

    EDIT: little surprised that the scouting orb and all the mines are in that group...
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  11. #61
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    Yep. They are all built up from the same set of root properties. And I love that the elemental crystals are found under "Tulz" (lol "Tools").

  12. #62
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    oO_ShadowFox_Oo were we creating a new universe from scratch and we identified the need to shield the protagonist from enemy view then I'd probably be right behind the idea of a smoke bomb

    but we have an established universe and we have tools that already fill the niche the smoke bomb would occupy

    the need is not there to drive the development

    I know you aren't going to agree with this but neither am I going to agree with you, so shall we just agree to differ on this one ?

  13. #63
    Agree to disagree so, but I can't see why, in the Thief universe, you don't need to shield the player from view. Isn't that was stealth and L&S is all about? Concealing the player from the guard's line of sight? This is simply another method to do this with a different mechanic for different situations.

    And the invisibility potion already fills the niche of every tool in the game.

    Why do we need anything else?

    We should just have Thief 4 with nothing but invisibility potions. All other equipment is unnecessary and to be honest I'd much rather they spent the development time else where
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  14. #64
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    ah so agree to disagree but can't resist having a final dig well I can do sarcasm too

    make T4 with just invisibility potions! absolutely because an invisibility potion is so useful for firing up to a high piece of wood so you can climb up or for picking open a door lock or for when you need that extra turn of speed or you need to blow a door open or all the other uses for the other tools some of which overlap with each other

    we going to agree to disagree properly now ?

  15. #65
    Originally Posted by esme
    ah so agree to disagree but can't resist having a final dig well I can do sarcasm too
    The invisibility potion comment was more directed toward Hypervosa, I just didn't bother to quote him. But since you brought it up...

    make T4 with just invisibility potions! absolutely because an invisibility potion is so useful for firing up to a high piece of wood so you can climb up or for picking open a door lock or for when you need that extra turn of speed or you need to blow a door open or all the other uses for the other tools some of which overlap with each other
    Ok, sorry. Invisibility potions and lockpicks.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  16. #66
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    Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo
    The invisibility potion comment was more directed toward Hypervosa, I just didn't bother to quote him. But since you brought it up...

    Ok, sorry. Invisibility potions and lockpicks.
    ah my apologies then, maybe if you made sure you directed your venom at the person you were talking to then confusion like this would not arise

  17. #67
    Things seem to have gotten all screwy..

    My grenade idea was simply a new one or maybe a normal one.. I forget now.. doesn't matter lets go
    with that.. maybe some timed delays.. but no people had to initially trash the idea with "NO" all over
    the place.. it's like it's illegal to THINK on any given forum I go to.

    God forbid (figure of speech) that anyone consider NEW things.. oh no.. we couldn't do that..
    make a fire arrow act like a normal one.. you know spread fire.. to things like an OIL GRENADE?
    but wait.. why the hell would someone want one of those? oh hmm.. to cover the bigger spiders an
    bigger monsters/demons in something more painful? then ignite it with a fire arrow? or change that
    to a "spark" arrow? it wouldn't be the first time something got changed a bit now would it?

    So imo.. as I was trying to point out the game appears to be taking some futuristic routes an
    thought maybe it was time to change things around a lil.. maybe Garret can finally get a small
    gun like from AC2? yes I know it's a "Thief" forum.. to the person who thought he'd be captain
    obvious.. but that won't stop me from making comparisons an such.

    Sigh.. lastly it isn't a poll it was just a thread for the idea.. I don't want to argue "right now"
    I get enough of it elsewhere so I'll stop here for now.

  18. #68
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    Originally Posted by Corzama
    God forbid (figure of speech) that anyone consider NEW things.. oh no.. we couldn't do that..
    New ideas are welcome, but don't expect people to support an idea that will compromise THIEF gameplay.
    make a fire arrow act like a normal one.. you know spread fire.. to things like an OIL GRENADE?
    but wait.. why the hell would someone want one of those? oh hmm.. to cover the bigger spiders an
    bigger monsters/demons in something more painful? then ignite it with a fire arrow? or change that
    to a "spark" arrow? it wouldn't be the first time something got changed a bit now would it?
    Painful? Yes...we can make those creatures suffer, and burn them alive...watching in delight as they succumb to the flames. Then of course there are the guards...yes, the guards. What fun could be had firebombing a whole roomful of them...Just toss one in and let the fun begin...
    So imo.. as I was trying to point out the game appears to be taking some futuristic routes an
    thought maybe it was time to change things around a lil.. maybe Garret can finally get a small
    gun like from AC2?
    Garrett using guns and grenades instead of sword and bow?...WRONG...

    Um, you do realise this is the Thief 4 forum don't you?

  19. #69
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    Maybe there's a full-on assumption this is for Thief Modern or GTA minus the Auto?

  20. #70
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    Pffft. Who needs a real grenade when you have the freakin SUNBURST DEVICE. Why go half way with a little bit of shrapnel and blackpowder, when you can launch this baby into a city square and expect it to kill everyone within a 30 foot radius once you set it off with a fire arrow.

    I mean no disrespect, but a grenade doesn't need implementation. The time lag grenade is the current mine - have you ever thrown one at someone? I've enjoyed dickin around on occasion with em, and when you throw one and it makes that loud THUD the guards turn and start lookin, *shhka shhhka shhhka* the mine sets itself to blow, and they're usually right above it by then and POP dead. It is a good grenade, I promise you, because the loud thud makes the guards seek it out. It's not as stylish, or libel to roll down the slanted hill and kill the person who threw it, but it functions well as a grenade. So does the beast egg. You throw it at someone directly, and the beast pops out, falls immediately onto them, and explodes, killing them. More like a contact grenade, but still, the point is made.

    I feel that maybe having a time delay option to flashbombs or (I hope they won't be there, but if they are) gas grenades, would be beneficial. The guard hears the thud, walks a bit closer and then FLASH or Sssssssss. However, I feel a grenade's roll can be filled with our existing, and thief-touched tools.
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  21. #71
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    Originally Posted by Corzama
    maybe Garret can finally get a small
    gun like from AC2? yes I know it's a "Thief" forum.. to the person who thought he'd be captain
    obvious.. but that won't stop me from making comparisons an such.
    The problem with the suggestion is that the use of chemical combustion to propel projectiles has somehow been completely missed in scientific development in the Thief-universe. They have crossbows, catapults and slingshots, even steam-powered cannons, but no gunbarrels.

  22. #72
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    If he has a gun, it had better be a tool for throwing things long distances quickly, not a primarily a weapon.

  23. #73
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    Originally Posted by jtr7
    If he has a gun, it had better be a tool for throwing things long distances quickly, not a primarily a weapon.
    But but but -- my precious bow. Don't do something that would replace my precious bow I'd cry, I think I really would.

    Maybe a special wrist strapped steam utilizing device that launches enchanted metal bolts that can drop rope out the bottom, but be used effectively on stone and metal due to their sheer speed either burrowing them in, or fusing them to, the surface of what they hit (not retrievable). Sure, you can bolt some guy in the face with it, but I'd assume the bolts would be expensive and rare - though with that much power one could expect the thing to have penetration. I can just see someone using it to take out 2 guards lined up looking over a castle wall with a double headshot. Sounds like a shield and plate piercing thing too.

    It sounds like something I'd have endless fun dicking around with, but also I might accept as a tasty new tool despite the fact it would probably not need to be used terribly often (though could make alot of things easier).
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  24. #74
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    The purpose of the gun would best be realized in the form of a slingshot or crossbow-pistol, but I do really just want the short recurve bow.

  25. #75
    A lot of James Bond type suggestions here lol
    (Grumbles) Why do funny things always happen on my shift.

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