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Thread: Kain/Janos/HOD

  1. #1

    Kain/Janos/HOD

    HOD standing for Heart Of Darkness

    I had a question regarding those three.

    What did Kain mean "the heart of darkness belonged to Janos Audron all along?" Doesn't Kain need it to survive as a vampire still? From what I understand, according to the creators, it was his nature as Scion Of Balance that allowed him to live - that's a bit vague, isn't it? It sounds like a cop-out!

    Who does it really belong to? Janos or Kain and why?

  2. #2
    There are two ways to make a vampire: the way the ancients did (passing on the blood curse) or the way that Kain was made (imbuing life into a dead corpse by pulling the soul back into it). Mortanius was a good necromancer, but he wasn't that good, he needed a bit of help when it came to resurrecting Kain, so he used the Heart of Darkness (which had recently been cut out of Janos's chest) to bring Kain back to life. However, since Kain was brought back via necromancy he didn't really need the heart to stay alive, so when Raziel ripped it out of his chest he was fine.

    So, in short: The Heart of Darkness originally belonged to Janos Audron, it was cut out of him by Raziel (when he was still human and not yet turned into a vampire), it was then given to Mortanius who used it to resurrect Kain. Raziel (the wraith version) ripped it out of Kain, but that's okay, the fact that he was resurrected by necromancy and not by passing the blood curse means that he doesn't need it. Raziel placed it back into Janos Audron, who came back to life.

    So the Heart of Darkness belongs to Janos.

    So far as I know the only thing that being the Scion of Balance did for Kain was taint him at birth and throw his destiny off.
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  3. #3
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    I agree that without more of an explanation, the whole "his nature as Scion of Balance keeps him alive" does pretty much seem like a cop out. By the way Raziel's Revenge, the Heart of Darkness was cut out of Janos about 500 years before Kain was raised as a Vampire. I'm guessing it was guarded somewhere by the Sarafan until they collapsed, and at some point Mortanius stole it. And I also really don't agree that Kain didn't need his heart to live because of how he was resurrected. If that was the case, then all those Vampires that Raziel impaled shouldn't have died either, since they were brought back pretty much the same way.

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    I always felt that his original heart must have stepped into the gap when he was dying. Janos lived for a few seconds without a heart, after all. It's contradicted by Kain mentioning a 'disquieting stillness', but I don't think he actually says 'what the hell? I have no heart. Maybe his replacement was just weaker.

    Mortanius was one of the Sarafan's main sponsors, maybe they gave it to him for safekeeping.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  5. #5
    I think it's possible that the Heart being in Kain for so many centuries before being returned to Janos may also have been partially responsible for Janos' devolution into a Turel clone in BO2.

    The whole plot point certainly seems to have been in the working back then as Kain mentions being intertwined with Janos in a way he never comprehended at the time.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
    I agree that without more of an explanation, the whole "his nature as Scion of Balance keeps him alive" does pretty much seem like a cop out. By the way Raziel's Revenge, the Heart of Darkness was cut out of Janos about 500 years before Kain was raised as a Vampire. I'm guessing it was guarded somewhere by the Sarafan until they collapsed, and at some point Mortanius stole it. And I also really don't agree that Kain didn't need his heart to live because of how he was resurrected. If that was the case, then all those Vampires that Raziel impaled shouldn't have died either, since they were brought back pretty much the same way.
    Dammit, I knew the part about 500 years later too. Teach me to write without double-checking.

    On a side note: I distinctly recall all of those vampires that Raziel impaled did come back to life when you pulled the pole out. It was only by burning them or eating their soul that you could be rid of them for good. I've always taken the burning bit to be such massive destruction of the physical body that it can't be brought back, however I bet you could rip the heart out of a Soul Reaver 1 era vampire and he'd be just dandy.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumah's wraith View Post
    I always felt that his original heart must have stepped into the gap when he was dying. Janos lived for a few seconds without a heart, after all. It's contradicted by Kain mentioning a 'disquieting stillness', but I don't think he actually says 'what the hell? I have no heart. Maybe his replacement was just weaker.

    Mortanius was one of the Sarafan's main sponsors, maybe they gave it to him for safekeeping.
    I still don't see the need for him to have a heart, and he mentions something along the lines of "I no longer possess the part of me on which that worked" when Moebius tried to use his staff on him in Defiance.
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  7. #7
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    No, when you impale a Vampire in Soul Reaver, it looks like it's going through the heart, and it sure does kill him, you can see the soul leave the body, so obviously they need that heart to live. Kain had his heart ripped out, which is pretty much the same thing, or actually, even worse. No one put a new heart in him to bring him back, so something special's going on. If getting impaled through the heart would kill one of the SR1 Vampires, I think having their heart ripped out would do a hell of a lot more to stop them. I really don't see how you think they would still keep going without a heart when having a metal rod shoved through that heart makes their soul leave their body.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    Dammit, I knew the part about 500 years later too. Teach me to write without double-checking.

    On a side note: I distinctly recall all of those vampires that Raziel impaled did come back to life when you pulled the pole out. It was only by burning them or eating their soul that you could be rid of them for good. I've always taken the burning bit to be such massive destruction of the physical body that it can't be brought back, however I bet you could rip the heart out of a Soul Reaver 1 era vampire and he'd be just dandy.



    I still don't see the need for him to have a heart, and he mentions something along the lines of "I no longer possess the part of me on which that worked" when Moebius tried to use his staff on him in Defiance.
    he says "the part of me that staff affected is no longer in it's place, but you already knew that didn't you" (sorry, i just had to see how good my memory was )

    i think everyones points are pretty good, and if you piece them together it gives a varied view of the subject - because if you can't take it one way, there's always another. in a way it seems to fill in the blocks better then CD/Eidos explination.

    i think i'm gonna have to go with you on the SR vamp-hearts thing, as it just 'sounds' right to me - but then what about those Dumahim in the Frozen Fortress?....sorry, i mean Ash Village? their bodies are laying about on the floor in the entrance, some impaled others aren't but their all dead either way. if they don't need a heart, shouldn't they still be standing?
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
    I agree that without more of an explanation, the whole "his nature as Scion of Balance keeps him alive" does pretty much seem like a cop out. By the way Raziel's Revenge, the Heart of Darkness was cut out of Janos about 500 years before Kain was raised as a Vampire. I'm guessing it was guarded somewhere by the Sarafan until they collapsed, and at some point Mortanius stole it. And I also really don't agree that Kain didn't need his heart to live because of how he was resurrected. If that was the case, then all those Vampires that Raziel impaled shouldn't have died either, since they were brought back pretty much the same way.
    Yeah, they left out that part, didn't they? It was never explained how Mortainous was able to retrieve the Heart Of Darkness. He only confirmed that he wanted to atone for his mistake, hence the creation of Kain.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ammon View Post
    i think i'm gonna have to go with you on the SR vamp-hearts thing, as it just 'sounds' right to me - but then what about those Dumahim in the Frozen Fortress?....sorry, i mean Ash Village? their bodies are laying about on the floor in the entrance, some impaled others aren't but their all dead either way. if they don't need a heart, shouldn't they still be standing?
    That's always bugged me actually. When I got to that section of the game and saw all the dead bodies laying around I quickly decided that it was time to have some fun. I ran up to the first and drew out the pole, but it didn't come back. My disappointment only grew when it didn't work for others as well.

    Oh, @ Zulgbrtzchllha: You make a good point there, however it doesn't explain why they come back once you pull it back out. Of course, my argument doesn't explain why they die when you first impale them, so I'd say either we both have it half right or all wrong lol
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    Oh, @ Zulgbrtzchllha: You make a good point there, however it doesn't explain why they come back once you pull it back out. Of course, my argument doesn't explain why they die when you first impale them, so I'd say either we both have it half right or all wrong lol
    One of the old strategy guides for SR1 I have mentions that just transfixing a vampire's heart is enough to "kill" it. I can't tell if that part was written by CD or not. However, Raziel never actually removes anyone's heart in SR1, he only pierces them with spears, staffs etc. The heart's still in their body and can regenerate quickly once the weapon is removed. Kain's heart, on the other hand, was ripped right out of him.

    Raziel was a vampire himself for quite a long time and was convinced that removing Kain's heart had definitely killed him. Kain was even more powerful than he was, so I agree that his return is probably considered "supernatural" even for Nosgoth.

  12. #12
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    The Dumahim in Ash Village didn't revive because they were so long dead that their bodies had rotted too much to function.

    SR1 Manual: 'If the fatal element that destroyed it is removed from a vampire wraith's corpse, it reinhabits and reanimates its body'

    Ripping out the heart of a SR1 would kill it, like any fatal wound. In fact, that's probably a better way than stabbing them, because they need their heart back in place to revive. That's probably why the Sarafan ripped out Janos' heart in the first place...they didn't want anyone to revive him. If a vampire could survive without a heart, I doubt just being stabbed would faze them.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  13. #13
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    What was that in the SR2 blooper reel... "I had my heart ripped out! Give me a break here!"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    There are two ways to make a vampire: the way the ancients did (passing on the blood curse) or the way that Kain was made (imbuing life into a dead corpse by pulling the soul back into it). Mortanius was a good necromancer, but he wasn't that good, he needed a bit of help when it came to resurrecting Kain, so he used the Heart of Darkness (which had recently been cut out of Janos's chest) to bring Kain back to life. However, since Kain was brought back via necromancy he didn't really need the heart to stay alive, so when Raziel ripped it out of his chest he was fine.

    So, in short: The Heart of Darkness originally belonged to Janos Audron, it was cut out of him by Raziel (when he was still human and not yet turned into a vampire), it was then given to Mortanius who used it to resurrect Kain. Raziel (the wraith version) ripped it out of Kain, but that's okay, the fact that he was resurrected by necromancy and not by passing the blood curse means that he doesn't need it. Raziel placed it back into Janos Audron, who came back to life.

    So the Heart of Darkness belongs to Janos.

    So far as I know the only thing that being the Scion of Balance did for Kain was taint him at birth and throw his destiny off.
    And then Raziel used the HOD that he ripped out of Kain to resurrect Janos, whose body was then taken over by the Sarafan Lord. After that, I think he was kept alive during the BO2 events. What I'm not sure of is when the BO2 events took place. Did that entire "story" take place right after the events of BO and before the events of SR1?

  15. #15
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    Yep.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

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    I think that Kain gets taken out by the Hylden Lord 200 years after Blood Omen, and then he wakes up 200 years after that.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
    I think that Kain gets taken out by the Hylden Lord 200 years after Blood Omen, and then he wakes up 200 years after that.
    I think I read the same somewhere in the BO2 manual so...

  18. #18
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    From the opening intro of the game, after Kain's flashback/dream of fighting with the Hylden Lord:

    FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE NOBLEMAN KAIN
    WAS CURSED TO WALK THE NIGHT AS A VAMPIRE
    AND CENTURIES BEFORE KAIN WOULD RULE THE
    WASTELAND OF NOSGOTH WITH HIS LIEUTENANT RAZIEL

    HIS PATH OF CONQUEST IS STOPPED BY A NEW ENEMY

    THE PILLARS OF NOSGOTH LIE IN RUIN
    VAMPIRES ROAM THE LAND ONCE AGAIN
    AND THE LEGACY OF KAIN CONTINUES
    And Umah tells Kain he's been sleeping for 200 years. So, the fight happened 200 years prior to the game's start, which is 200 years after Kain damns The Pillars. The answers are all in the game, baby!

  19. #19
    I love it when we all discuss the story around here. It's great.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by KainFanatic192 View Post
    I love it when we all discuss the story around here. It's great.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by dumah's wraith View Post
    The Dumahim in Ash Village didn't revive because they were so long dead that their bodies had rotted too much to function.

    SR1 Manual: 'If the fatal element that destroyed it is removed from a vampire wraith's corpse, it reinhabits and reanimates its body'

    Ripping out the heart of a SR1 would kill it, like any fatal wound. In fact, that's probably a better way than stabbing them, because they need their heart back in place to revive. That's probably why the Sarafan ripped out Janos' heart in the first place...they didn't want anyone to revive him. If a vampire could survive without a heart, I doubt just being stabbed would faze them.
    Seems to me that the corpses that Kain would reanimate to be his Lieutenants were much older than the ones lying around the Ash Village. Either the Sarafan had very good preservation techniques, we're missing something here, we've found yet another irrelevant plot hole, or I'm just confusing time lines again
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  21. #21
    I would guess not so much the condition of the body as the location of the soul, The SR1 vamps were killed in a decently open area.

    The sarafan were proud and any will still with them after they died might let them stay near their bodies and mourn. If their souls were sealed in the tomb with their bodies then they were stuck their until Kain opened it. This would also explain why the souls were able to be anchored with his donation seeing as how they should have been processed by the wheel ages past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    Seems to me that the corpses that Kain would reanimate to be his Lieutenants were much older than the ones lying around the Ash Village. Either the Sarafan had very good preservation techniques, we're missing something here, we've found yet another irrelevant plot hole, or I'm just confusing time lines again
    Or, you all simply haven't considered that the souls of these long-dead vampires had been eaten, or ventured too far from their corpses, by the time Raziel comes upon their corpses. Go Spectral and you'll see there are no wraiths around. The only wraith anywhere close is through the doors, down the side hall by the block, another further down the main hall in the open courtyard.

    Yes, the bodies of other vampires burn away to ash once their souls are eaten, but that may be a gameplay device. If not, then the souls had ventured too far away. In fact, perhaps the wraiths further down are their very souls. If so, they've all gotten themselves into places, somehow, that they no longer can get out of.

    @Aranor: I doubt very much the Lieutenants' souls when they were Sarafan were stuck by their corpses, and certainly that they had a choice in the matter to do so, or not because of their pride as Sarafan. Raziel sees their souls shoot off into the sky when he kills them and vanish. The Lieutenants had no memory of being Sarafan when they were raised, and there are too many Sluagh, EG's minions, and such around that would have been next to impossible for these souls to have survived clinging to their corpses. The way its described, it's as if they were pulled from deep in the Underworld when Kain breathes his soul portion into their bodies. Their lack of memory for who they were leads me the believe they had been taken by the EG and were partially being reprocessed/devoured by him at the time Kain breathes his soul portion into their corpses. But, that's been my theory from the start.

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    Either that or Kain just inserted random passersbys' souls into the Sarafan corpses and the real ones were long gone.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  24. #24
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    No, Amy Hennig was entirely specific it's the creature's own soul that's drawn back to its body.

    Q: How did Janos make Voradoor-like Kain made Raziel and his sons, or like
    Mortanius made Kain? Was the way Kain made and the way Kain created his
    brethren the same? Howd Voradoor make his children?
    A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
    The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
    Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
    Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    No, Amy Hennig was entirely specific it's the creature's own soul that's drawn back to its body.
    So, in a way, when Kain breathed part of his spirit into each of his sons, he basically gave him a part of his personality to each, right? So, in effect, he made Raziel a good guy, because he was once noble and honorable in life as a human and didn't forget that?

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